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Author Topic: -- Butterfly Labs New 600GH "Mining Card" - RED FLAGS?!?!  (Read 47328 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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October 14, 2013, 04:17:28 AM

A guy in the comments section here claims the Monarch is just using CoinTerra's 28nm chip.  Has that been discussed anywhere?

http://thegenesisblock.com/cointerra-and-hashfast-sell-17m-of-bitcoin-miners-open-second-batch-sales/
Yeah i would like to know aswell, Could we PLEASE get back on topic!
The Cointerra chip is 500GH/s isn't it? The BFL is 300GH/s.

If Cointerra's 500gh/s chip is slowed down to 300gh/s, it will consume less power and produce less heat and BFL might be able to stick two on the Monarch board after all.

Why would they stick 2 chips when Cointerra is gonna rape them on price?

BFL already can't compete on price with Cointerra, putting 2 chips will cost significantly more so it doesn't make sense.

Price =/= cost.   Raw ASIC (based on die space and estimated wafer cost) is on the order of $0.50 per GH.  If a company cost was double their competitor would it really matter in the short term?

For the record I don't believe BFL is using a Cointerra chip but cost has nothing to do with it.
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October 14, 2013, 04:27:46 AM

A guy in the comments section here claims the Monarch is just using CoinTerra's 28nm chip.  Has that been discussed anywhere?

http://thegenesisblock.com/cointerra-and-hashfast-sell-17m-of-bitcoin-miners-open-second-batch-sales/
Yeah i would like to know aswell, Could we PLEASE get back on topic!
The Cointerra chip is 500GH/s isn't it? The BFL is 300GH/s.

If Cointerra's 500gh/s chip is slowed down to 300gh/s, it will consume less power and produce less heat and BFL might be able to stick two on the Monarch board after all.

Why would they stick 2 chips when Cointerra is gonna rape them on price?

BFL already can't compete on price with Cointerra, putting 2 chips will cost significantly more so it doesn't make sense.

Price =/= cost.   Raw ASIC (based on die space and estimated wafer cost) is on the order of $0.50 per GH.  If a company cost was double their competitor would it really matter in the short term?

For the record I don't believe BFL is using a Cointerra chip but cost has nothing to do with it.

Cointerra is selling them a finished chip.  Like intel selling AMD a CPU chip so AMD can then compete with intel.

The only reason Cointerra would do this would be if they knew they can dump crappy chips at a hefty premium.  Cointerra is cool cause they know this will significantly cut BFL's ability to compete or make any big profits and BFL will do it cause they're desperate to get out a 28nm soon before lawsuits start flying.

So when I say Cointerra will charge double I don't mean double the actual chip cost, I meant Cointerra is likely to charge them double the retail cost (look at what BFL sells their chips for to get an idea) which would kill most of BFL's profits.  Profits are always a function of costs, BTW.

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October 14, 2013, 04:29:16 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?

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October 14, 2013, 04:30:35 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?




They said they did 2 months ago.

That means ZERO!


Edit:  I was referring to BFL.

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October 14, 2013, 04:33:33 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?




They said they did 2 months ago.

That means ZERO!


Evidence to support that BFL is buying chips from Cointerra?

Evidence that BFL taped out?

Evidence that Cointerra taped out?

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Gerald Davis


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October 14, 2013, 04:33:33 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?
They said they did 2 months ago.

Once again wrong.  Cointerra has never stated they have either started or completed the tapeout.
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October 14, 2013, 04:38:20 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?
They said they did 2 months ago.

Once again wrong.  Cointerra has never stated they have either started or completed the tapeout.

My bad.  I thought he was asking about BFL.

Cointerra led on that tapeout was done a couple months ago but they have never outright stated this.  I mean, the chip has to be done by now if they're shipping end product in less than 3 months.  

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October 14, 2013, 04:39:52 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?




They said they did 2 months ago.

That means ZERO!


Evidence to support that BFL is buying chips from Cointerra?

Evidence that BFL taped out?

Evidence that Cointerra taped out?

The only evidence for BFL is that they said so.

The only evidence for Cointerra is that their management team is world class and have a top notch reputation with a lot to lose.

I wouldn't touch BFL, but I would buy a Cointerra rig.

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Gerald Davis


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October 14, 2013, 04:40:11 AM

Cointerra led on that tapeout was done a couple months ago but they have never outright stated this.  I mean, the chip has to be done by now if they're shipping end product in less than 3 months.

BFL has never confirmed they have completed taepout either.  They simply set a vague timeline and the date passed without confirmation.

Why would a chip need to be completed if someone is shipping a miner in 3 months?  It took KNC <7 days to go from chip deliver to first miner shipping.
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October 14, 2013, 04:40:59 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?
They said they did 2 months ago.

Once again wrong.  Cointerra has never stated they have either started or completed the tapeout.

My bad.  I thought he was asking about BFL.

Cointerra led on that tapeout was done a couple months ago but they have never outright stated this.  I mean, the chip has to be done by now if they're shipping end product in less than 3 months.  

Cointerra said on their press release last month that tape out was scheduled for the first week of October, I just want to know if that happened, because that's as late as you would want to be for pre-Xmas shipping.


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October 14, 2013, 04:41:40 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?




They said they did 2 months ago.

That means ZERO!


Evidence to support that BFL is buying chips from Cointerra?

Evidence that BFL taped out?

Evidence that Cointerra taped out?

The only evidence for BFL is that they said so.

The only evidence for Cointerra is that their management team is world class and have a top notch reputation with a lot to lose.

I wouldn't touch BFL, but I would buy a Cointerra rig.

Links... proof... etc... stating it doesn't really give me confidence... where are the posts?

So cointerra 0 evidence provided for tape out.

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Gerald Davis


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October 14, 2013, 04:43:33 AM

Cointerra said on their press release last month that tape out was scheduled for the first week of October, I just want to know if that happened, because that's as late as you would want to be for pre-Xmas shipping.

First week came and went and there was not a peep from Cointerra.  Generally the three largest milestones in an ASIC products are
1) devices shipping
2) chips have arrived
3) tapeout complete

while Cointerra has never come out and said "we haven't completed out tapeout" they have simply said nothing.  Given the huge significance of a completed tapeout (which also signifies NRE costs are complete AND the company has paid for the first batch of wafers) it would be "strange" for a company to complete that milestone and remain silent.
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October 14, 2013, 04:44:00 AM

Have Cointerra done tape out yet?




They said they did 2 months ago.

That means ZERO!


Evidence to support that BFL is buying chips from Cointerra?

Evidence that BFL taped out?

Evidence that Cointerra taped out?

The only evidence for BFL is that they said so.

The only evidence for Cointerra is that their management team is world class and have a top notch reputation with a lot to lose.

I wouldn't touch BFL, but I would buy a Cointerra rig.

Links... proof... etc... stating it doesn't really give me confidence... where are the posts?

There is no proof.

Nobody knows if BFL is using Cointerra, there's just no other way they can get 28nm that fast any other way.  So they're either buying from Cointerra (or KNC) or lying their asses off....again.

And there's no proof for Cointerra taping out, you'd have to trust the management's reputation.

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October 14, 2013, 04:45:49 AM

Cointerra said on their press release last month that tape out was scheduled for the first week of October, I just want to know if that happened, because that's as late as you would want to be for pre-Xmas shipping.

First week came and went and there was not a peep from Cointerra.  Generally the three largest milestones in an ASIC products are
1) devices shipping
2) chips have arrived
3) tapeout complete

while Cointerra has never come out and said "we haven't completed out tapeout" they have simply said nothing.  Given the huge significance of a completed tapeout (which also signifies NRE costs are complete AND the company has paid for the first batch of wafers) it would be "strange" for a company to complete that milestone and remain silent.

So it looks like they're running behind....as one would expect on such a new product. 

This means BFL will not make its December deadline, unless they're buying from KNC, and paying out the nose.

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October 14, 2013, 04:46:08 AM

Nobody knows if BFL is using Cointerra, there's just no other way they can get 28nm that fast any other way.

You base this on what?  BFL timeline insn't significantly more aggressive then KNC, Cointerra, HF, or Bitfury. 

I wouldn't touch BFL with a ten foot pole but the idea that there is no other possible option except the unsupported claim you made is just false.
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October 14, 2013, 04:47:12 AM

Cointerra said on their press release last month that tape out was scheduled for the first week of October, I just want to know if that happened, because that's as late as you would want to be for pre-Xmas shipping.

First week came and went and there was not a peep from Cointerra.  Generally the three largest milestones in an ASIC products are
1) devices shipping
2) chips have arrived
3) tapeout complete

while Cointerra has never come out and said "we haven't completed out tapeout" they have simply said nothing.  Given the huge significance of a completed tapeout (which also signifies NRE costs are complete AND the company has paid for the first batch of wafers) it would be "strange" for a company to complete that milestone and remain silent.

So it looks like they're running behind....as one would expect on such a new product. 

This means BFL will not make its December deadline, unless they're buying from KNC, and paying out the nose.

No it means if Cointerra is running behind then Cointerra might not meet their deadline.  Nothing more.  The rest is just dubious conjecture on your part.
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October 14, 2013, 04:48:50 AM

So.

No evidence for tapeout of BFL.
No evidence for tapeout of Cointerra.
No evidence whatsoever that BFL has chips on the design board or alternatively an agreement to purchase other fabricators chips.

What we have then is a faux / dummy Monarch card with absolutely 0 evidence from BFL of a chips to marry to it.

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October 14, 2013, 04:50:07 AM

So.

No evidence for tapeout of BFL.
No evidence for tapeout of Cointerra.
No evidence whatsoever that BFL has chips on the design board or alternatively an agreement to purchase other fabricators chips.

What we have then is a faux / dummy Monarch card with absolutely 0 evidence from BFL of a chips to marry to it.


Correct on all counts.

And to add:  BFL has played this game before and got rich off our crowdfunding....fool me once...

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October 14, 2013, 04:52:53 AM

BFL said they did their tape out back in August.

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Gerald Davis


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October 14, 2013, 04:56:39 AM

BFL said they did their tape out back in August.

Please provide a past tense quote.  IIRC BFL stated the tapeout was scheduled for August.  End of August came and not a peep from them on that.   Cointerra stated they were scheduled to tapeout in first week of Oct and that date passed with not a peep from them. 
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