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Author Topic: MasterCoin Buyer/Seller Thread  (Read 222040 times)
puck2
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October 26, 2013, 12:50:57 AM
 #761

OK... I'm trying to buy Mastercoins via this thread. This is the first time I'm doing this, so I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

I have a Mastercoin address created using Bitcoin-QT, to which I've received 0.2 MSC already.

I have a message from the seller which shows a Mastercoin address, a Signed Message, and a Signature (which is a long string of text and numbers).

There is then a bitcoin address for payment.

How do I proceed? How do I confirm the ownership of the Mastercoins? What do I do with a signed message. How do I sign a message back to the seller? Do I need an offline MSC wallet? Does such a thing exist?

If there is a FAQ, please point me there, otherwise, thanks for the help here.  Huh

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Faraday
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October 26, 2013, 01:22:17 AM
 #762

OK... I'm trying to buy Mastercoins via this thread. This is the first time I'm doing this, so I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

I have a Mastercoin address created using Bitcoin-QT, to which I've received 0.2 MSC already.

I have a message from the seller which shows a Mastercoin address, a Signed Message, and a Signature (which is a long string of text and numbers).

There is then a bitcoin address for payment.

How do I proceed? How do I confirm the ownership of the Mastercoins? What do I do with a signed message. How do I sign a message back to the seller? Do I need an offline MSC wallet? Does such a thing exist?

If there is a FAQ, please point me there, otherwise, thanks for the help here.  Huh



Hi puck2, the signed message is just to show that I actually own the address with the mastercoins. You can check it by entering the message and signature here: http://brainwallet.org/#verify

For us to continue from here you can either send me the bitcoins and I send you the mastercoins, or we can use escrow which is where you send a trusted third party the bitcoins, I sent you the mastercoins, then they send the bitcoins on to me.

You don't need an offline MSC wallet to receive mastercoins, just a normal bitcoin address which you have the private keys for.
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October 26, 2013, 02:32:50 AM
 #763

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sanity ? lmao selling coins of some unclear protocol that is at odds with the BTC devs ...yes BUY BUY BUY!!  Grin LOL
Well you say the same thing as me, but with opposition mark Huh Disclaimer: I sold 90% of my coins Wink
But if dacoinminster's neutrality and passiveness do not kill his own project, I believe the real price (WHEN AND IF ALL THE FEATURES ARE IMPLEMENTED) is about to land and stay around the 1 BTC horizon.
Some kids are excited and spamming these threads reasoning about why it will be 20-30 BTC per MSC by two or three years, I invite them to do a simple multiplication (~600K MSC*30 BTC). God bless btt community!


Have someone from Forbes, Huff Post, etc. pick up a story on Mastercoin, and see how long it takes it to get to the 1-2 BTC point. That's all that will be necessary.

I think once a basic distributed exchange is in place and being used (as per the current bounty) that could end up happening. The way it rides on top of the bitcoin blockchain is very interesting and I would think worth writing about, once you have something you can share with it in the article (i.e. working distributed exchange, etc)

I'm the one who said Mastercoin could someday be worth 20-30BTC each.

That is 18,000,000 Bitcoins if you're doing 600,000*30. This number is irrelevant though because you don't have to buy Mastercoins with Bitcoins so it's not really known how much it could be worth. A Mastercoin could go for way more than that too.

Honestly I don't know how much Mastercoin will ultimately be worth, but I expect 1-2 BTC per Mastercoin at some point. 20-30 BTC per Mastercoin depends on too many factors which no one can predict and is years away from happening if it happens at all. Kind of like how Bitcoin will probably go to $1000 but $100,000 we just don't know.

I would say don't buy Mastercoin under the certainty that the protocol will work. It's an experiment, it's high risk, and if it fails then the Mastercoins could be worth 0. If it succeeds then the sky is the limit.

If it succeeds, the value goes to 0 as well, since it can be copied, and someone creates their system using Mastercoin2.  The best hope is the project never gets enough traction to prove failure or success, and random speculators keep trading value, and you get out before it's too late.

If that happened then you can't say it succeeds. The truth is the value cannot go to zero and it be a success. If anyone copies it, I expect the value of the copy to be even higher than Mastercoin or at least higher than Bitcoin. The real question is why would anyone need or use the copy?

If we already have Mastercoin there is no incentive to buy another Mastercoin2 and start over. There is no incentive to build another Mastercoin if we can do everything we need to do with this protocol.

It may be a case where you have competitor products and they all are going for 2-3 BTC each and that could be what keeps Mastercoin from reaching 20-30 BTC each but so what? Just making a clone doesn't mean people will download your clone.

If I want to issue a currency or make a bet what incentive do I have to use Mastercoin2 if it offers no increased functionality and no economic incentive for me to switch?

Why would you need to use the copy?  The alt-coins would be cheaper to acquire to use for the same effect.

You don't build Mastercoin2, you simply fork Mastercoin1 and there you go.  There is no advantage from network effect, everything can be cloned, and you have useless tokens.
Read the specification:
https://e33ec872-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/2ndbtcwpaper/MasterCoin%20Specification%201.1.pdf

Obviously you don't understand how Mastercoin works. Silver is cheaper than gold but we still use gold. Why?
No one would prefer silver over gold, but it's so much cheaper so why wouldn't they?

Mastercoin acts as a unit of measurement. The Mastercoin protocol is a formula which functions as a value unit for the user currencies. It's value is not dependent upon it's scarcity because it's not like gold. It's actually more important than gold.

Mastercoin if it works
Once I have a working Mastercoin, I can create any currency I'll ever need and issue it. So why would I need an alt currency to do exactly what I can already do? "Cheaper" and "Expensive" assume Mastercoin is a unit of account when it's actually a unit of measurement, while the user generated currencies are the units of account. Bitcoin is a unit of account and functions as a currency, but you can easily create Bitcoins from Mastercoins so why would I care about the Bitcoin price if I have Mastercoins? I can also use Mastercoins to create currencies with far higher prices than Bitcoins so how exactly would Bitcoin somehow be more expensive than a working Mastercoin?
 
Let me give you an example here, let's say I'm an airline company JetBlue and I decide to create Jet Blue credits using the Mastercoin protocol. Those credits represent the goods and services offered by Jet Blue. So now Jet Blue credits are issued on the Mastercoin protocol backed by Mastercoins purchased by JetBlue which act as a unit of measurement of the goods and services JetBlue has to offer. Mastercoin is not money, and it's not credit, it's a unit of measurement which allows for the creation of money and credit. Money is a unit of account to give you a cost of goods and services, so Bitcoin is money.

Yes you can build a clone of Mastercoin and call it Mastercoin2 but if it has all the exact same features and I can do all the exact same things then it wouldn't even be worth my time to download it. And if you say "you'll download it because it's cheaper", you're missing the point. Mastercoin is useful because of what we can do with it and that is where it gets it's value from. If Jet Blue is offering credits backed by the goods and services of the Jet Blue company, those goods and services are going to be worth a lot to a lot of people. It will not make any sense for those people to go to some fake Mastercoin which isn't issuing JetBlue credits. Jet Blue isn't going to need to go to Mastercoin2 to issue their credits after they issue it over Mastercoin because they'd have to pay twice for the same functionality.

Mastercoin is not a stock. It's not a currency. The purpose of Mastercoin is to act as a unit of measurement, for instance in an escrow. It becomes valuable because people will be using it to do all kinds of trades. A clone isn't going to stop me from using it because I already have Mastercoins. It isn't going to stop the majority of people who have Mastercoins from using it because once you have Mastercoins at any price you have already purchased a stake and if it works you'll be able to use the protocol and it's functionality. Ideally you want to get them for cheap and most of us are at this point in time the earliest of early adopters.

The only way a Bitcoin will be worth the same as a Mastercoin would be if the Bitcoin developers themselves found a way to put all the functionality of Mastercoin into Bitcoin but if they did that it would cripple Bitcoin as a currency because the majority of people would be hoarding Bitcoins to use as escrow or to use in exotic derivative schemes which would affect the people who want to use Bitcoins to do micropayments or small purchases. Mastercoin frees Bitcoin users and developers from having to make that particular choice, at least not for the same reasons.

The Max_Block_Size issue may still cause problems of scalability. Micropayments may still ultimately be a problem if off-chain transactions aren't utilized.

Anyway to end this debate the only change to the specification JR would have to make to promote "brand loyalty" would be to allow the escrow to generate interest for the issuer and it's game over. If the issuer has an incentive to actually put their Mastercoins to use then whoever has Mastercoin owners will be virtually guaranteed to use them. The only way the price could crash down would be if the people who have them don't understand the protocol enough to know how to use them,  or if there is no incentive to get people to use them, or if there is another better technology (possibly Bitshares?) which allows for the same properties.

Colored Coin is a technology but it's design in my opinion is ugly and unnecessarily complicated. Maybe it will work but I don't see how it can work without the value going somewhere. If someone is issuing credit or currencies then it's got to be backed by something somewhere and represented somewhere. If it's backed by Mastercoins then you'd say it's represented by Mastercoins which act as the unit of measurement. If I wanted to issue a currency or credits through Colored Coin then perhaps it's possible but I don't know what their specification is or how they intend to do it. I'll believe it when I see a prototype.


puck2
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October 26, 2013, 04:29:43 AM
 #764

OK, for the record, I have sent 10 bitcoins to Faraday in exchange for 100 mastercoins. (0.1 BTC / MSC)

Hi puck2, the signed message is just to show that I actually own the address with the mastercoins. You can check it by entering the message and signature here: http://brainwallet.org/#verify

For us to continue from here you can either send me the bitcoins and I send you the mastercoins, or we can use escrow which is where you send a trusted third party the bitcoins, I sent you the mastercoins, then they send the bitcoins on to me.

You don't need an offline MSC wallet to receive mastercoins, just a normal bitcoin address which you have the private keys for.
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October 26, 2013, 04:47:11 AM
 #765

OK, for the record, I have sent 10 bitcoins to Faraday in exchange for 100 mastercoins. (0.1 BTC / MSC)

Thanks, Mastercoins have been sent. (Will PM you with transaction details)
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October 26, 2013, 05:39:40 AM
 #766

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sanity ? lmao selling coins of some unclear protocol that is at odds with the BTC devs ...yes BUY BUY BUY!!  Grin LOL
Well you say the same thing as me, but with opposition mark Huh Disclaimer: I sold 90% of my coins Wink
But if dacoinminster's neutrality and passiveness do not kill his own project, I believe the real price (WHEN AND IF ALL THE FEATURES ARE IMPLEMENTED) is about to land and stay around the 1 BTC horizon.
Some kids are excited and spamming these threads reasoning about why it will be 20-30 BTC per MSC by two or three years, I invite them to do a simple multiplication (~600K MSC*30 BTC). God bless btt community!


Have someone from Forbes, Huff Post, etc. pick up a story on Mastercoin, and see how long it takes it to get to the 1-2 BTC point. That's all that will be necessary.

I think once a basic distributed exchange is in place and being used (as per the current bounty) that could end up happening. The way it rides on top of the bitcoin blockchain is very interesting and I would think worth writing about, once you have something you can share with it in the article (i.e. working distributed exchange, etc)

I'm the one who said Mastercoin could someday be worth 20-30BTC each.

That is 18,000,000 Bitcoins if you're doing 600,000*30. This number is irrelevant though because you don't have to buy Mastercoins with Bitcoins so it's not really known how much it could be worth. A Mastercoin could go for way more than that too.

Honestly I don't know how much Mastercoin will ultimately be worth, but I expect 1-2 BTC per Mastercoin at some point. 20-30 BTC per Mastercoin depends on too many factors which no one can predict and is years away from happening if it happens at all. Kind of like how Bitcoin will probably go to $1000 but $100,000 we just don't know.

I would say don't buy Mastercoin under the certainty that the protocol will work. It's an experiment, it's high risk, and if it fails then the Mastercoins could be worth 0. If it succeeds then the sky is the limit.

If it succeeds, the value goes to 0 as well, since it can be copied, and someone creates their system using Mastercoin2.  The best hope is the project never gets enough traction to prove failure or success, and random speculators keep trading value, and you get out before it's too late.

If that happened then you can't say it succeeds. The truth is the value cannot go to zero and it be a success. If anyone copies it, I expect the value of the copy to be even higher than Mastercoin or at least higher than Bitcoin. The real question is why would anyone need or use the copy?

If we already have Mastercoin there is no incentive to buy another Mastercoin2 and start over. There is no incentive to build another Mastercoin if we can do everything we need to do with this protocol.

It may be a case where you have competitor products and they all are going for 2-3 BTC each and that could be what keeps Mastercoin from reaching 20-30 BTC each but so what? Just making a clone doesn't mean people will download your clone.

If I want to issue a currency or make a bet what incentive do I have to use Mastercoin2 if it offers no increased functionality and no economic incentive for me to switch?

Why would you need to use the copy?  The alt-coins would be cheaper to acquire to use for the same effect.

You don't build Mastercoin2, you simply fork Mastercoin1 and there you go.  There is no advantage from network effect, everything can be cloned, and you have useless tokens.
Read the specification:
https://e33ec872-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/2ndbtcwpaper/MasterCoin%20Specification%201.1.pdf

Obviously you don't understand how Mastercoin works. Silver is cheaper than gold but we still use gold. Why?
No one would prefer silver over gold, but it's so much cheaper so why wouldn't they?

Mastercoin acts as a unit of measurement. The Mastercoin protocol is a formula which functions as a value unit for the user currencies. It's value is not dependent upon it's scarcity because it's not like gold. It's actually more important than gold.

Mastercoin if it works
Once I have a working Mastercoin, I can create any currency I'll ever need and issue it. So why would I need an alt currency to do exactly what I can already do? "Cheaper" and "Expensive" assume Mastercoin is a unit of account when it's actually a unit of measurement, while the user generated currencies are the units of account. Bitcoin is a unit of account and functions as a currency, but you can easily create Bitcoins from Mastercoins so why would I care about the Bitcoin price if I have Mastercoins? I can also use Mastercoins to create currencies with far higher prices than Bitcoins so how exactly would Bitcoin somehow be more expensive than a working Mastercoin?
 
Let me give you an example here, let's say I'm an airline company JetBlue and I decide to create Jet Blue credits using the Mastercoin protocol. Those credits represent the goods and services offered by Jet Blue. So now Jet Blue credits are issued on the Mastercoin protocol backed by Mastercoins purchased by JetBlue which act as a unit of measurement of the goods and services JetBlue has to offer. Mastercoin is not money, and it's not credit, it's a unit of measurement which allows for the creation of money and credit. Money is a unit of account to give you a cost of goods and services, so Bitcoin is money.

Yes you can build a clone of Mastercoin and call it Mastercoin2 but if it has all the exact same features and I can do all the exact same things then it wouldn't even be worth my time to download it. And if you say "you'll download it because it's cheaper", you're missing the point. Mastercoin is useful because of what we can do with it and that is where it gets it's value from. If Jet Blue is offering credits backed by the goods and services of the Jet Blue company, those goods and services are going to be worth a lot to a lot of people. It will not make any sense for those people to go to some fake Mastercoin which isn't issuing JetBlue credits. Jet Blue isn't going to need to go to Mastercoin2 to issue their credits after they issue it over Mastercoin because they'd have to pay twice for the same functionality.

Mastercoin is not a stock. It's not a currency. The purpose of Mastercoin is to act as a unit of measurement, for instance in an escrow. It becomes valuable because people will be using it to do all kinds of trades. A clone isn't going to stop me from using it because I already have Mastercoins. It isn't going to stop the majority of people who have Mastercoins from using it because once you have Mastercoins at any price you have already purchased a stake and if it works you'll be able to use the protocol and it's functionality. Ideally you want to get them for cheap and most of us are at this point in time the earliest of early adopters.

The only way a Bitcoin will be worth the same as a Mastercoin would be if the Bitcoin developers themselves found a way to put all the functionality of Mastercoin into Bitcoin but if they did that it would cripple Bitcoin as a currency because the majority of people would be hoarding Bitcoins to use as escrow or to use in exotic derivative schemes which would affect the people who want to use Bitcoins to do micropayments or small purchases. Mastercoin frees Bitcoin users and developers from having to make that particular choice, at least not for the same reasons.

The Max_Block_Size issue may still cause problems of scalability. Micropayments may still ultimately be a problem if off-chain transactions aren't utilized.

Anyway to end this debate the only change to the specification JR would have to make to promote "brand loyalty" would be to allow the escrow to generate interest for the issuer and it's game over. If the issuer has an incentive to actually put their Mastercoins to use then whoever has Mastercoin owners will be virtually guaranteed to use them. The only way the price could crash down would be if the people who have them don't understand the protocol enough to know how to use them,  or if there is no incentive to get people to use them, or if there is another better technology (possibly Bitshares?) which allows for the same properties.

Colored Coin is a technology but it's design in my opinion is ugly and unnecessarily complicated. Maybe it will work but I don't see how it can work without the value going somewhere. If someone is issuing credit or currencies then it's got to be backed by something somewhere and represented somewhere. If it's backed by Mastercoins then you'd say it's represented by Mastercoins which act as the unit of measurement. If I wanted to issue a currency or credits through Colored Coin then perhaps it's possible but I don't know what their specification is or how they intend to do it. I'll believe it when I see a prototype.





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October 26, 2013, 09:25:35 AM
 #767

Why would you need to use the copy?  The alt-coins would be cheaper to acquire to use for the same effect.

You don't build Mastercoin2, you simply fork Mastercoin1 and there you go.  There is no advantage from network effect, everything can be cloned, and you have useless tokens.

Yeah! Just like what happened to bitcoin!

Oh wait . . .

The claim that Mastercoin1 will not become secondary to Mastercoin2, and using bitcoin as an example is really not the best argument. The community revolving Mastercoin1, the first to market exposure, and branding will all play a role in helping Mastercoin1. Unfortunately if bitcoin was premined among satoshi and co, and was hoarded in hopes of speculative riches, litecoin would be the big player today. People underestimate the adoption role distribution methodology serves. This is one of the key reasons Ripple has not received mass adoption by the bitcoin community so far (Not to say Ripple1 and Mastercoin1 won't be successful).

Additionally since the claim here is that Mastercoin is a unit of measurement, there is in fact a huge incentive for competing Mastercoin networks. In the end, the only advantage I see Mastercoin1 having is a speculative advantage which will probably pop along with the first big market crash. Associating a separate value to Mastercoins is a self-hindering feature which is really only there to serve an ROI pathway for the original investors (something which I recognize was needed for the crowdfunding to succeed, capitalizing purely on people's dreams and hopes of getting rich...not their altruistic motives). Yes I understand the claims of why mastercoins "NEED" a value, but it sounds to me more like circular logic and a crippled solution.


Colored Coin is a technology but it's design in my opinion is ugly and unnecessarily complicated. Maybe it will work but I don't see how it can work without the value going somewhere. If someone is issuing credit or currencies then it's got to be backed by something somewhere and represented somewhere. If it's backed by Mastercoins then you'd say it's represented by Mastercoins which act as the unit of measurement. If I wanted to issue a currency or credits through Colored Coin then perhaps it's possible but I don't know what their specification is or how they intend to do it. I'll believe it when I see a prototype.


Colored coin technology is actually superior to Mastercoins in terms of being "backed". You can color whatever amount of bitcoins you would like as a single unit, directly. So for example 15 btc = 1 goldcoin; that goldcoin is in fact 15 bitcoins forever.

Oh the other hand, Mastercoin proposes a controversial feature of escrow backed currencies which my economic sense tells me cannot work. The issuance is not being measured on the value of Mastercoins; in reality it is being measured by the MSC to BTC relationship since BTC is where the trust and redeemability exists today. So if for example you issues gold through mastercoin, potential for loss of trust and catastrophic collapse can occur on 2 levels, both if BTC losses value AND if MSC losses value.

Regardless the only way to truly back an asset in the REAL WORLD is to have that asset on hand, or hedge the position elsewhere (otherwise it's a bucket shop). No magic voodoo self fulfilling prophecy escrow account can change that, and if it could you'll see JR receiving a nobel prize.

So while colored coins is backed directly by bitcoin, Mastercoin issued coins are at much higher risk of speculative attack. That's not to say Mastercoins don't have their own advantages, but when it comes to representing value or a unit of measurement, MSC falls short.

Yes I do help run buymastercoin.com, yes I am realistic about the technology, NO I'm not hyping magic fairy tales of pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. Caveat emptor.
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October 26, 2013, 11:58:47 AM
 #768

The claim that Mastercoin1 will not become secondary to Mastercoin2, and using bitcoin as an example is really not the best argument. The community revolving Mastercoin1, the first to market exposure, and branding will all play a role in helping Mastercoin1. Unfortunately if bitcoin was premined among satoshi and co, and was hoarded in hopes of speculative riches, litecoin would be the big player today. People underestimate the adoption role distribution methodology serves. This is one of the key reasons Ripple has not received mass adoption by the bitcoin community so far (Not to say Ripple1 and Mastercoin1 won't be successful).

Additionally since the claim here is that Mastercoin is a unit of measurement, there is in fact a huge incentive for competing Mastercoin networks. In the end, the only advantage I see Mastercoin1 having is a speculative advantage which will probably pop along with the first big market crash. Associating a separate value to Mastercoins is a self-hindering feature which is really only there to serve an ROI pathway for the original investors (something which I recognize was needed for the crowdfunding to succeed, capitalizing purely on people's dreams and hopes of getting rich...not their altruistic motives). Yes I understand the claims of why mastercoins "NEED" a value, but it sounds to me more like circular logic and a crippled solution.
I don't agree with it. I think separation from Bitcoin is a good thing when trying to create a unit of measurement because it allows Bitcoin developers to focus on making Bitcoin a unit of account. Bitcoin is not more valuable than Walmart credits if Walmart has a higher market cap and is in greater demand, but with Mastercoin the Walmart corporation can issue their Walmart credits directly to users through Mastercoin. Amazon coin or Google coin through Mastercoin would work just fine over Mastercoin. You or I could also issuer our credits through Mastercoin.

I don't think the price and speculation of Mastercoin is important because it's not something which functions in a way which can be popped easily like Bitcoin can be, because I believe Mastercoin will be backed by real goods and services and not just people putting USD into it as an investment. What matters is the ability to get an abundance of goods and services. The price of the dollar is only of value when compared to the price of something else like gold or silver (which originally backed the dollar). The price is a result of having a unit of measurement. The unit of measurement sets all the prices of all the issuers. What matters for us is to have the ability to issue credits which represent the true value of our goods and services which can be redeemed by someone else while also having a market place where we can access credits which represent the goods and services of anyone else. Goods and services ultimately create the value for Mastercoin (not Bitcoins). Bitcoins are just the transport layer to carry the information which represents the true value which is the goods and services that those credits represent.

If I can buy Google or Walmart credits with my Mastercoins and the Mastercoins somehow are less effective at it then that can be adjusted to make Mastercoin more effective. The price of the Mastercoins in dollars does not matter if I can get the same amount of goods and services.

The value of Mastercoin is what matters and that buying power matters in relation to the redeemed goods and services of issuers, not the credits from issuers. Meaning the Mastercoins are used to allow issuers to issue credits in the first place and any large corporation could issue credits which are more expensive than Bitcoin because price is measured by whatever is backing Mastercoin's escrow and not necessarily exclusively Bitcoin.


Colored Coin is a technology but it's design in my opinion is ugly and unnecessarily complicated. Maybe it will work but I don't see how it can work without the value going somewhere. If someone is issuing credit or currencies then it's got to be backed by something somewhere and represented somewhere. If it's backed by Mastercoins then you'd say it's represented by Mastercoins which act as the unit of measurement. If I wanted to issue a currency or credits through Colored Coin then perhaps it's possible but I don't know what their specification is or how they intend to do it. I'll believe it when I see a prototype.

Colored coin technology is actually superior to Mastercoins in terms of being "backed". You can color whatever amount of bitcoins you would like as a single unit, directly. So for example 15 btc = 1 goldcoin; that goldcoin is in fact 15 bitcoins forever.

I don't believe it to be superior. What Colored Coins will do is cause less people to use Bitcoin as a currency and more people to have to use Bitcoin as a unit of measurement (which it's not designed for and shouldn't do).
Bitcoin is a unit of account, a credit/currency designed by Satoshi and issued by miners. It's not in my opinion going to be capable of being good at being both the unit of measurement and a currency at the same time for the same reason that gold and silver weren't good at being both a unit of measurement and a unit of account at the same time.

We moved from to fiat currency for a good reason, we moved to vouchers for a good reason, it was to move beyond the limits of what gold and silver could do. You couldn't issue virtual gold and virtual silver without a voucher or credit or fiat system to allow you to issue pieces of paper which represent gold or silver. Silver went from being a unit of account to being a unit of measurement and that was one of the greatest changes in the economy because it allowed any shop keeper to issuer their own credits, their own currency, their own voucher backed by their own goods and services with silver being used merely as a measure on the value of their goods and services. Nothing in the economic eco-system was more valuable than gold so gold was used merely in comparison to everything else. My goods and services are valued as 20 pieces of gold, 20 pieces of gold is relatively stable and does not change drastically, so we can use 20 pieces of gold to know exactly how much my goods and services are worth. But when people actually buy my goods and services they use my vouchers, my credits, my currency, not 20 pieces of gold.

Bitcoin could try to take on the functionality of gold but it's hard for Bitcoin to be programmed to function like gold while also allowing it to function like a currency. It's basically saying that Bitcoin will be divided in such a way that on the one hand you will have a perpetual coin (Bitcoin), but also a credit coin (user currency), and that Bitcoin will somehow be able to act as a unit of measurement for the credit coin. I'm skeptical that Bitcoin being what it is and the focus development is currently going that it can achieve that.

With Mastercoin the price of Bitcoins does not matter. If you use Colored Coins and the price of Bitcoins were to go down wouldn't that affect everything backed by Bitcoins? That is the problem I can see. The problem being that Bitcoin will be used for too many things and its use as a currency may create instability for it as a unit of measurement while Mastercoin will primarily be a unit of measurement so it does not have the same potential problems trying to be two things at once.

Maybe you see a way around this but when something is supposed to be a unit of measurement its supposed to provide stability but I don't see any way something volatile like Bitcoin can provide stability at this time when it has to be mined, has block reward halving events every 4 years, (I think Proof of Stake might work for stability but Proof of Work actually contributes to the volatility). Theoretically possible, but I don't think it's going to work in practice.

Oh the other hand, Mastercoin proposes a controversial feature of escrow backed currencies which my economic sense tells me cannot work. The issuance is not being measured on the value of Mastercoins; in reality it is being measured by the MSC to BTC relationship since BTC is where the trust and redeemability exists today. So if for example you issues gold through mastercoin, potential for loss of trust and catastrophic collapse can occur on 2 levels, both if BTC losses value AND if MSC losses value.
BuyMastercoin if I can redeem my Mastercoins for the products and services offered by the issuer what do I need Bitcoins for? If you're a car company and you offer Ford coins to anyone who has Mastercoins then what exactly would I need Bitcoins for if I'm trying to trade for car products? Okay you're a video game company called Nintendo and you offer Nintendo credits and I have Mastercoins so I trade for those Nintendo credits, so what exactly do I need Bitcoins for? When we have a decentralized market place I can trade Mastercoins for any kind of credits, any kind of currency (including Bitcoins but not limited to Bitcoins). And that is where I think we disagree.

I think Mastercoins do not need the value of Bitcoin because Mastercoins can be redeemed for the goods and services of the issuer. If you issue BuyMasterCoin credits, then anyone who owns Mastercoins could purchase your credits so why would Bitcoins be needed unless you believe Bitcoins are the only valuable form of credit that exists and in that case I don't believe Bitcoin is even as valuable as Visa or Mastercard. I don't think Bitcoin is even as valuable as Ford or Nintendo if you look at the market cap. What I'm saying is that Mastercoin will inherit the value of all the corporate privately issued credit, all the points, all sorts of virtual currencies, gift cards, private currencies, gold. Mastercoin as a protocol will allow the creation of a Local Exchange Trading System or a Community Exchange System. If trade is facilitated decentralized, and anyone can issue credit, there is no need to care about the price of Bitcoin because people will buy Mastercoins with cash the same way people currently buy Bitcoins with cash.

If you're saying right now it's easiest to buy Mastercoins with Bitcoin then sure. In the future corporations will be knocking each other over to issue credits/ gift cards and currencies on top of the Mastercoin protocol and if my understanding is correct they'll need Mastercoins to do it.
Regardless the only way to truly back an asset in the REAL WORLD is to have that asset on hand, or hedge the position elsewhere (otherwise it's a bucket shop). No magic voodoo self fulfilling prophecy escrow account can change that, and if it could you'll see JR receiving a nobel prize.
It has worked in the past. How do you think the economy used to work? What do you think banks did and how do you think vouchers came about? Originally if we are all business owners in a market then we all have goods and services we want to trade with each other. We cannot use gold or silver coins because those tend to get hoarded, rely on scarcity, and because of that are best used as a unit of measurement rather than as a unit of account. What happened was human beings who wanted to trade with each other first started with barter, but that wasn't very flexible, so they created a unit of account (money) to allow the tracking of cost and price, but the gold and silver form didn't function very well as money because while it could be stored forever that easily stored forever quality also made it easy to hoard.

Hoarded gold and hoarded silver is worthless to the economy. They eventually figured out to use gold and silver as units of measurement and to use trade vouchers and private credit currencies as units of account. So no one really needed to have gold other than to use as escrow to issue private currencies. Now each shop keeper could and did issue their own vouchers. The most valuable and useful vouchers were in the greatest demand, and everyone traded their goods and services for those vouchers. As a result everyone eventually started working for those vouchers. Those vouchers were actually backed by the goods and services of the issuer so if it's a bread voucher it's backed by bread and since everyone has to eat it means the bread voucher was extremely valuable to the economy. The unit of measurement (gold and silver) were only used to provide escrow and produce a price and cost for the goods and services offered by the issuer. The majority of people in the economy did not have to care about the price of gold and silver and did not own much gold and silver as it was used to measure the value of other things against it. A loaf of bread is worth a certain amount of silver, and that amount can increase or decrease by some percentage points, no one really cares the price of gold or silver because if the bread is more expensive then the bread can be redeemed for more gold or silver but if the bread is less expensive then the bread is redeemed for less gold or silver. That is basically what Mastercoin is doing with the user currencies. If the user currency is in high demand then the escrow produces more of them to adjust the supply to meet the demand. If its in less demand then the escrow destroys some of them to adjust.

As long as we can get plenty of bread, we have no reason to care about the price in Mastercoins because eventually you'll be able to trade swap credits/user currencies. If I have too much bread I can trade it for tickets to the concert or anything else I want in the market place.

So while colored coins is backed directly by bitcoin, Mastercoin issued coins are at much higher risk of speculative attack. That's not to say Mastercoins don't have their own advantages, but when it comes to representing value or a unit of measurement, MSC falls short.

Yes I do help run buymastercoin.com, yes I am realistic about the technology, NO I'm not hyping magic fairy tales of pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. Caveat emptor.

I think you do not fully understand the implications of the Mastercoin protocol. What Mastercoin is doing is actually old, it's not some new formula just because it's high tech. It's true it's never been done with computers and in a decentralized way, but it has been done before and its not what you think.
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October 26, 2013, 01:34:14 PM
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Yes I do help run buymastercoin.com, yes I am realistic about the technology, NO I'm not hyping magic fairy tales of pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. Caveat emptor.

Right. Or perhaps you've sold off your holdings and want to keep the price down to buy back in. I'm sorry you're a spectator now, but that's no reason to clog up this trading thread with arguments that have been debunked elsewhere.

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October 26, 2013, 01:37:39 PM
 #770


"..The claim that Mastercoin1 will not become secondary to Mastercoin2,.. "


woah woah waoh Mastercoin 1 is MST!! it's listed on cryptsy!!!lol

&
v
v
v

"Oh the other hand, Mastercoin proposes a controversial feature of escrow backed currencies which my economic sense tells me cannot work."


yes read and re-read the satoshi white paper_?_ building escrow/trust into bitcoin?
 huh?-imo: not even!  Roll Eyes

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October 27, 2013, 12:28:42 AM
 #771

I'll put another sell offer up at 250MSC @ 0.1 each.

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October 27, 2013, 12:30:58 AM
 #772

I'll put another sell offer up at 250MSC @ 0.1 each.


Added to the order book.

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October 27, 2013, 12:53:47 AM
 #773

OK, for the record, I have sent 10 bitcoins to Faraday in exchange for 100 mastercoins. (0.1 BTC / MSC)

Thanks, Mastercoins have been sent. (Will PM you with transaction details)

Good price. I bought some MSC earlier at  (0.12 BTC / MSC)

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October 27, 2013, 02:39:10 PM
 #774

Sures quiet in here...

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October 27, 2013, 04:44:12 PM
 #775

Hi !
I want to buy 10 mastercoins with 1 bitcoin.


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October 27, 2013, 04:47:02 PM
 #776

Hi !
I want to buy 10 mastercoins with 1 bitcoin.

I added you to the order book. There are 2 people currently selling for 0.1 BTC (Faraday,lishbtc), you might contact them to get a deal.

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October 27, 2013, 06:06:38 PM
 #777

Mastercoin just doesn't look like it's gonna go anywhere I hope I am wrong.

I sell cheap Pizza!
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October 27, 2013, 06:47:59 PM
 #778

I'm still not sure everything is fine or not...

Yesterday I bought 1 MSC via BuyMastercoin.com

I sent 0.19BTC to the BuyMastercoin given address from my BlockChain.info wallet. (Let me first say that I already had 0.0005 BTC in this wallet prior to sending extra 0.19BTC from my BitStamp for the reason of buying MSC)

Ok, so I did the transfer and now I have 0.00056 BTC in my Blockchain wallet address. (0.00006 back from BuyMastercoin and 0.0005 from before).

Also, 1 MSC is showing fine in the MasterCoin Explorer on that BTC address.

Now I have 3 questions:

1. Is this extra 0.0005 there fine?
2. How do I get the private key for this address from the BlockChain.info?
3. Most importantly: If I move the total of 0.00056 to some other address does that mean I moved the whole 1 MSC?? (email support man told me I move them via MasterCoin Advisor, but i'm still not sure what this 0.00056 in my Bchain address is).  

Geez, thanks Smiley
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October 27, 2013, 06:51:49 PM
 #779

Will sell 10 MSC for 1 BTC, up to 1000 MSC max (need to keep some for me Smiley ).

P.S:. Please add me to order book, much obliged!
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October 27, 2013, 07:04:20 PM
 #780

I'm still not sure everything is fine or not...

Yesterday I bought 1 MSC via BuyMastercoin.com

I sent 0.19BTC to the BuyMastercoin given address from my BlockChain.info wallet. (Let me first say that I already had 0.0005 BTC in this wallet prior to sending extra 0.19BTC from my BitStamp for the reason of buying MSC)

Ok, so I did the transfer and now I have 0.00056 BTC in my Blockchain wallet address. (0.00006 back from BuyMastercoin and 0.0005 from before).

Also, 1 MSC is showing fine in the MasterCoin Explorer on that BTC address.

Now I have 3 questions:

1. Is this extra 0.0005 there fine?
2. How do I get the private key for this address from the BlockChain.info?
3. Most importantly: If I move the total of 0.00056 to some other address does that mean I moved the whole 1 MSC?? (email support man told me I move them via MasterCoin Advisor, but i'm still not sure what this 0.00056 in my Bchain address is).  

Geez, thanks Smiley

you can move the funds from that wallet, the mastercoins will remain there until you decide sending them using J.R's method(for now).
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