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Author Topic: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s  (Read 786795 times)
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January 31, 2014, 08:41:39 AM
 #1621

May I suggest (primarily to P.G.) less name-calling, large text and off-topic illustrations, at least in this thread? I know about the "Ignore" link alright, but still... I come here for information, not distraction.
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January 31, 2014, 09:19:15 AM
 #1622

My prospero x3 estimates pre & post date change:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx1oXmDllViDTzNrZFlBQ2NKR0k/edit?usp=sharing
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January 31, 2014, 09:38:34 AM
 #1623

Hey bobsag3, can you read this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294197.msg4837079#msg4837079

and this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294197.msg4837704#msg4837704

please? Like many others, I think the planned 25% for 4 months is insufficient. I think it would be fair to compensate with the same number of hashes (not hashes/sec, but actual hashes) that are lost. 2 months' delay on a 2 TH/s should be compensated with either 4 months cloud hashing at 1 TH/s or 2 months at 2 TH/s. If you think that's reasonable, please discuss it with Black Arrow when you meet with them in London.

Also, I'm going to be in Shenzhen for most of February. If there's anything I can do to help BA or the community while I'm there, please let me know.
Take pictures of factory, people in factory, managing director, his secretary, wife and dog.  Post in this forum.   Grin
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January 31, 2014, 01:01:35 PM
 #1624

On my email i received with the good new's its says just above the invoice

Please ignore the below invoice as it is not accurate.

and the only thing different on the invoice is
Status:    Processed - 25% Extra

Please ignore the below invoice as it is not accurate ? what is not accurate about it.
any1 else get this on there email ?
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January 31, 2014, 01:27:52 PM
 #1625

On my email i received with the good new's its says just above the invoice

Please ignore the below invoice as it is not accurate.

and the only thing different on the invoice is
Status:    Processed - 25% Extra

Please ignore the below invoice as it is not accurate ? what is not accurate about it.
any1 else get this on there email ?

yes, got the same wording and invoice attached

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January 31, 2014, 02:40:50 PM
 #1626

I totally agree...this is fare And just.

I think our compensation should be "cloud hash" equal to 100% of our ordered hashpower, to begin when our miners were originally scheduled to ship, and ending when the miners actually ship.

That would be acceptable. In fact, MegaBigPower did that when they had a delay on a batch.
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January 31, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
 #1627

Got order for 20x Prospero X-1

Any1 already tried to get a refound ? Payed in $

Best Regards
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January 31, 2014, 03:01:18 PM
 #1628


Yeah, that looks about right. Underwater 3.5K per X-3 -- only thing we can hope is price of BTC doubles. Yet BlackArrow Matt thinks they're going to have a successful launch. I can't see how they reconcile that. I also just don't buy that he was unaware of things. How big a company is  BA? How little can he be aware of? Maybe if he was a random community member brought in to rep them here, sure. But if he's an employee then he bloody well knew what was going on.
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January 31, 2014, 03:08:04 PM
 #1629


Yeah, that looks about right. Underwater 3.5K per X-3 -- only thing we can hope is price of BTC doubles. Yet BlackArrow Matt thinks they're going to have a successful launch. I can't see how they reconcile that. I also just don't buy that he was unaware of things. How big a company is  BA? How little can he be aware of? Maybe if he was a random community member brought in to rep them here, sure. But if he's an employee then he bloody well knew what was going on.

I'm sure B.A.Matt and and other official reps are subject to an employe N.D.A. of some sort and lets not forget that a lot of the info we want would come from VeriSilicon which may not be as forthcoming as we would like.

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January 31, 2014, 04:17:06 PM
 #1630

What is that,
yesterday i had status "Processed - 25% Extra"
and today only "Processed"

i am Batch 1 and got that e-mail.

Big scram i would say...
anyway all useless
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January 31, 2014, 04:25:15 PM
 #1631

See the answer from BA here: http://ecointalk.net/topic/463-we-want-answers/page-3
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January 31, 2014, 04:49:56 PM
 #1632

From the eCoinTalk forum:

Quote
terrorist96, on 29 Jan 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:
 
1. Did Blackarrow lie to us when they said they had their final specs on Jan 3?
 
2. If they've just now taped out, shouldn't it take 49 days (considering Cointerra) to make it to production? It should be done by late March..This makes no sense.. Some explanation on this would be nice.
 
3. Why weren't the customers consulted when Blackarrow knew that the chip would ship with 1.5W/Gh without delay and ASKED us customers if we were okay with that OR delay the shipment 2 months to achieve 0.75W/Gh? If Blackarrow KNEW in early January that there would be a delay, why did you wait until the END of January to tell people? An option of shipping on-time but with the 1.5W/Gh would have been nice since some people have free electricity and don't give a fuck!
 
4. When will we see real pictures of production? Otherwise this whole thing just seems like a giant scam. It's easy to promise people more things in the future.
(Yes, I know they've had pictures/videos of the bitfury. I'm talking about the Prospero)
 
5. How can we trust Blackarrow anymore since they've betrayed our trust already? How do we know that it won't get delayed even past May 1? Where are the reassurances?
 
6. The Prospero X-3 has 20 chips inside it. According to the statement put out, "TT corner @ 25C which is expected to run at 120Ghash/sec". Does this mean that in total, the X-3 will have a hash rate of 2400Gh/sec? If so, with the 25% (of 2000Gh/sec would be 500Gh/sec) added for 4 months, one X-3 mining rate would be 2900Gh/sec for the first 4 months, then drops to 2400Gh/sec from then on out. Is this correct?
 
7. What about the option to host Bitfuries for us, proportional to our order amount, starting Feb 24 until the Minion chips are ready to ship?
 
8. It has been mentioned that Globalfoundries are being used to manufacture the chip. However, Globalfoundries does not have any foundries in China. They are located in Singapore and Germany. I thought the chip was being made in China. I understand that VeriSilicon has a location in China though.
 
I think I speak for all your customers when I say we would like all these questions answered.
If anyone else has additional questions, post them here.

 
Black Arrow response:
 
Quote
1. We did not lie on Jan 3. We were planning to tape out before the Chinese New Year. On Jan 3 we were informed that the back end team cannot reach their target and need to try another layout. This meant to do some changes in the RTL code and start back end process all over again. We have immediately announced the worst date we could think of for batch 2 and not announced details about batch one because we did not had them. We just got the final data from the back end team 5 days ago. They have now reached their target and are now 99% sure that they'll tape out 1 week after Chinese new year (15-20 Jan).
 
2. We have looked into our competitors claims together with Global Foundries. GF is obviously not at liberty to discuss the specific projects with third parties but they assured us that it is impossible to finish 28nm in 49days and to cover every step. 28nm is very complicated and DRC/LSV and JDV checking takes at least 14 days. The wafer manufacturing takes 0.8days / layer at their highest speed. Our conclusion is that our competitors have deliberately omitted several steps in their advertising and were only referring to wafer manufacturing.
 
3. The tapeout costs millions of dollars. We do not have a customer that paid that much to make a tapeout just for them. We had to think further than 1 month. 1.5W/Ghash is not only electricity problem. The whole power translates into heat, therefore more things are required: power chips, heatsinks, AC, new case design, etc.
 
4. We cannot produce the PCBs without the exact pin layout of the chip. This has not been yet received.  We could not produce the case without the exact heat estimation.
 
5. Black Arrow is the only Bitcoin ASIC manufacturer that has not betrayed customer's trust. While others let the deadline pass by and did not announce anything we have clearly informed our customers of the situation.
The tapeout is almost complete and the path from here to ASIC is clearly drawn in the industry.
 
6. Yes, we should be able to run at 120Ghash/sec according to our tools and Verisilicon. Verisilicon gives us the SS corner for speed and TT corner for power. FF corner can be even faster.
 
For those who do not know:
SS = slow slow - absolutely lower limit (speed & voltage) where it can run
TT = typical typical - normal usage; note that 28nm is rated at 25C but leakage increases dramatically with the temperature. The real power consumption at 60C is only a guess at this stage.
FF = fast fast - higest speed, highest voltage, also the highest power consumption. - we have no data on this, it's only discovered while testing real chips.
 
7. We only have few Bitfuries left. It would mean to give everybody less than 1% of what they have ordered. This i more trouble than it worths.
 
8. The chip is designed in China, manufactured in Germany, packaged in Taiwan. Finally the Prospero will be assembled in China

Wish we heard more from them.  Just like an update a week, so customers aren't held hostage waiting to make their next move.

CharityAuction
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January 31, 2014, 05:37:57 PM
 #1633

What is that,
yesterday i had status "Processed - 25% Extra"
and today only "Processed"

i am Batch 1 and got that e-mail.


+1
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January 31, 2014, 05:45:51 PM
 #1634

If you look at that thread when I posted his first reply to my PM, he was more than ready to offer me a refund.

Who offered a refund?  So far anyone I've spoke to says it's out of their hands send in a ticket.
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January 31, 2014, 06:00:06 PM
 #1635

I totally agree...this is fare And just.

I think our compensation should be "cloud hash" equal to 100% of our ordered hashpower, to begin when our miners were originally scheduled to ship, and ending when the miners actually ship.

That would be acceptable. In fact, MegaBigPower did that when they had a delay on a batch.

Fair and just as it may be, it's never going to happen. There is no way they have enough previous generation hardware to accommodate that, which is probably why they are offering the 25%.

I am disappointed with the delay as I am batch 1 also, and no, it will probably not fully compensate, but we all know when you are buying a preorder of a product that's still in development.. a delay is not exactly a surprise.

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January 31, 2014, 07:49:27 PM
 #1636

Seeing as how it hasn't taped out yet and they have no circuit boards, no case, no software, nothing.  I seriously doubt it starts shipping in May.  They basically have nothing.  They should NOT produce this chip.  They should just get with someone like AsicMiner and build boards with their chips.  It'll be better/cheaper/faster.  Going forward with this is a mistake.  An expensive one.

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January 31, 2014, 09:53:08 PM
 #1637

Seeing as how it hasn't taped out yet and they have no circuit boards, no case, no software, nothing.  I seriously doubt it starts shipping in May.  They basically have nothing.  They should NOT produce this chip.  They should just get with someone like AsicMiner and build boards with their chips.  It'll be better/cheaper/faster.  Going forward with this is a mistake.  An expensive one.

It's easy for us to say this but I can't say in don't agree with you slightly   Roll Eyes
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January 31, 2014, 09:57:08 PM
 #1638

Seeing as how it hasn't taped out yet and they have no circuit boards, no case, no software, nothing.  I seriously doubt it starts shipping in May.  They basically have nothing.  They should NOT produce this chip.  They should just get with someone like AsicMiner and build boards with their chips.  It'll be better/cheaper/faster.  Going forward with this is a mistake.  An expensive one.
You are probably wrong about most of those points except tape out. Thy already developed and tested using compatible FPGA.

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January 31, 2014, 09:58:47 PM
 #1639

Did you not read their answers?  They said they cannot produce cases or circuit boards until they know what they have, which they don't.  They have nothing.

"
4. We cannot produce the PCBs without the exact pin layout of the chip. This has not been yet received.  We could not produce the case without the exact heat estimation.
"

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January 31, 2014, 11:21:08 PM
Last edit: January 31, 2014, 11:33:11 PM by Lloydie
 #1640

Seeing as how it hasn't taped out yet and they have no circuit boards, no case, no software, nothing.  I seriously doubt it starts shipping in May.  They basically have nothing.  They should NOT produce this chip.  They should just get with someone like AsicMiner and build boards with their chips.  It'll be better/cheaper/faster.  Going forward with this is a mistake.  An expensive one.
The above is correct, IMHO. AM chips will be 0.35 w/ghs TT and 0.2 w/ghs ss.  They are using 40nm, which means estimated chip delivery near end march. AM chips will be cheaper to buy wholesale compared to BA chips to produce in terms of Btc and timing, due to BA delay of two months. To maximise return, BA should swallow their pride and realise the comp has them beat.  AM has taped out, and designs are out for PCB design.  FriedCat has even asked for people to PM him on this as he wants to sell AM chips wholesale. The BA back end team cannot produce a better chip at 28nm. BA, it's time to move forward so everyone will at least have a chance to recover their btcs. We don't care whose chips you use. We want hash power ASAP.
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