Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[vesperwillow]

Sorry, me again.

Why group buy is not permitted?

Another question.

Cointerra (assuming they deliver as promised) are offering $3 per GH "early January" in case that is true $2 per GH in Feb/14 will not ROI at all.

I like your approach and wish to do something with your company but just wish to analyze the situation.

Regards

TMC

Based on your algorithm, assuming that Cointerra delivers in December, Cointerra's batch from January will not generate any revenue and Cointerra will never sell anything after February because Bitcoin mining will not be profitable at all.

The truth is that people will buy miners after February because in one way or the other mining will continue and hardware will be needed. We will be a major player from February when the market will be clearer because there's nowhere to go from 28nm.

So can you explain your math, as to how Cointerra's theoretical system deployment--more powerful and being delivered 3 months in advance--won't generate revenue, yet yours will? Maybe you missed my multiple questions on the topic.

Again citing my post a few bumps up, at a nice round $300 out the door figure (tax, shipping, customs fees added to the cost of the 25% discount unit), with an electrical usage of next to nothing plugged into the calculators--your system won't provide a profit unless there's less than 15% of difficulty increase per rise across March.

[aigeezer]

You have promised credit card payment option soon. Is a matter of days or months?
I know a person who decided to buy elsewhere just because of CC available there and not here.

We have added 2 hours ago Paypal. Please let us know if you encounter any issues.

We're looking into accepting credit cards directly as well, but it might take a while.

Regards!

This link does not yet show PayPal (or CC) payment options: http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/payments.html

Is that the page you have updated? Is it just a propagation delay?

[User705]

I'd like to make sure I understand what you are guaranteeing.  You are saying that if I preorder now I am guaranteed a price 25% below market price.  How will market price be defined?  

Yes, you are guaranteed to get a price 25% below the market price ($/ghash) at the time of shipment.
And yes, we will keep our prices below every other company.

Bottom line is, whoever trusts us now, we promise that will help them to mine profitably after February as well. If you keep supporting other companies who have ripped you off until now, you'll barely get your ROI back.

Can you be more clear on this point please.  Is it only $/gh that's counted without regard to other considerations?  I imagine the landscape of devices will be very spread out in February.  Are other devices included in the calculations or only 28nm?  What about the fact that your device looks to be less DIY then for example bitfury.  It's just such a blanket statement I think more clarification is needed.  If you take PayPal or CC direct that helps too.  

[blackarrow]

This link does not yet show PayPal (or CC) payment options: http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/payments.html

Is that the page you have updated? Is it just a propagation delay?

We have not yet updated this as PayPal is not yet working properly. We wrote them and waiting for reply.

[blackarrow]

So can you explain your math, as to how Cointerra's theoretical system deployment--more powerful and being delivered 3 months in advance--won't generate revenue, yet yours will? Maybe you missed my multiple questions on the topic.

Again citing my post a few bumps up, at a nice round $300 out the door figure (tax, shipping, customs fees added to the cost of the 25% discount unit), with an electrical usage of next to nothing plugged into the calculators--your system won't provide a profit unless there's less than 15% of difficulty increase per rise across March.

I will answer your question with another one:

Who will sell miners and at what price in February? Please consider that the Foundry needs to be paid.
Do you think that the price of the Bitcoin will stay the same and only the difficulty will increase? Until when will the miners afford to sell the hard-earn coin at $120?

[vesperwillow]

So can you explain your math, as to how Cointerra's theoretical system deployment--more powerful and being delivered 3 months in advance--won't generate revenue, yet yours will? Maybe you missed my multiple questions on the topic.

Again citing my post a few bumps up, at a nice round $300 out the door figure (tax, shipping, customs fees added to the cost of the 25% discount unit), with an electrical usage of next to nothing plugged into the calculators--your system won't provide a profit unless there's less than 15% of difficulty increase per rise across March.

I will answer your question with another one:

Who will sell miners and at what price in February? Please consider that the Foundry needs to be paid.
Do you think that the price of the Bitcoin will stay the same and only the difficulty will increase? Until when will the miners afford to sell the hard-earn coin at $120?

So your best method of providing proof for your claim against a competitor--which you're also using as a sales attractor--is to avoid the question and fire up the smoke and mirror machine? That's a great way to garner the interest of folks who are potential investors who are evaluating contributing to your product.

Who will sell miners?

Lots more companies than at present.

At what price in February?

Likely more than we want to pay

Consider the Foundry needs to be paid

Consider some of us are simply looking for detailed outlines of your model, product, math behind your claims, etc

Do you think the price will stay the same

No, but February is not a point where it will be stable either, especially with 10 other OEMs delivering

and only the difficulty will increase

The difficulty will be increasing for awhile, and at an exponential rate for at least 6 months beyond February

Until when will the miners afford to sell the hard-earn coin at $120?

I don't think anyone here is an Orcale.

Again, you made claims against competitors' value, you made claims of your own product's capabilities, you promise to make it right, but you're not providing the reasoning behind your claims (ie, the simple math based on projections).

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm trying to understand your platform from your viewpoint. So far it's not looking pretty, especially when you're answering questions with questions.

[alfabitcoin]

We all should really stop with this preorder shit. Its nothing else then free loan to the company. If company has a solid plan worth risking, then go to the bank and ask for loan.
In earlier blackarrow explanation I have noticed that he speaks of btc price implying it will rose among the difficulty. That was adsressed milion of times; then we are better of just buying and holding bitcoins at today market price.

[xyzzy099]

We all should really stop with this preorder shit. Its nothing else then free loan to the company. If company has a solid plan worth risking, then go to the bank and ask for loan.
In earlier blackarrow explanation I have noticed that he speaks of btc price implying it will rose among the difficulty. That was adsressed milion of times; then we are better of just buying and holding bitcoins at today market price.

+1000000

[erk]

We all should really stop with this preorder shit. Its nothing else then free loan to the company. If company has a solid plan worth risking, then go to the bank and ask for loan.
In earlier blackarrow explanation I have noticed that he speaks of btc price implying it will rose among the difficulty. That was adsressed milion of times; then we are better of just buying and holding bitcoins at today market price.

Exactly, Bitcoin mining is the only industry I can think of where one pre-order company pops up almost every week with their hat out.
They are almost as common at new alt-coins. In every other industry people make their products first, then release them to the market.

[Flying Hellfish]

We all should really stop with this preorder shit. Its nothing else then free loan to the company. If company has a solid plan worth risking, then go to the bank and ask for loan.
In earlier blackarrow explanation I have noticed that he speaks of btc price implying it will rose among the difficulty. That was adsressed milion of times; then we are better of just buying and holding bitcoins at today market price.

Exactly, Bitcoin mining is the only industry I can think of where one pre-order company pops up almost every week with their hat out.
They are almost as common at new alt-coins. In every other industry people make their products first, then release them to the market.

Ain't Deadwood swell!!! 

[aigeezer]

Exactly, Bitcoin mining is the only industry I can think of where one pre-order company pops up almost every week with their hat out.
They are almost as common at new alt-coins. In every other industry people make their products first, then release them to the market.

I'm not ready to take sides yet, and I'm still stinging from paying for an early BFL pre-order where, in hindsight, I'd have been much better off holding my BTC. However, it strikes me that in every other industry companies must go to the banksters, hat and business plan in hand, and ensnare themselves before they can produce anything. At least in BTC-world the pre-order companies are dependent on us miner wannabes rather than on the banksters we'd like to make redundant. Maybe it's not so bad, in Big Picture terms, for us to subsidize the pre-order startups.

[woobone]

When will there be more details available about the Lancelot trade-in option?

yea would like to know about trade-in option too thanks.

[erk]

Exactly, Bitcoin mining is the only industry I can think of where one pre-order company pops up almost every week with their hat out.
They are almost as common at new alt-coins. In every other industry people make their products first, then release them to the market.

I'm not ready to take sides yet, and I'm still stinging from paying for an early BFL pre-order where, in hindsight, I'd have been much better off holding my BTC. However, it strikes me that in every other industry companies must go to the banksters, hat and business plan in hand, and ensnare themselves before they can produce anything. At least in BTC-world the pre-order companies are dependent on us miner wannabes rather than on the banksters we'd like to make redundant. Maybe it's not so bad, in Big Picture terms, for us to subsidize the pre-order startups.

The GPU miner market has been doing just fine with only ATI/AMD supplying the lions share of the hardware. Yet in the ASIC hardware market we have how many players? Lots! It's high risk unsustainable, just a price war fueled by pre-order money.

[aigeezer]

The GPU miner market has been doing just fine with only ATI/AMD supplying the lions share of the hardware. Yet in the ASIC hardware market we have how many players? Lots! It's high risk unsustainable, just a price war fueled by pre-order money.

Good point, but the GPU market pre-existed for gaming, so it's not an apples to apples situation. All the ASIC players are startups, or rather the ASIC line of business is a startup venture that presumably needs seed money even for an established company. The issue becomes whether the seed money should come from banks or from "us". A third possibility would be for some deep-pocketed existing company, say ATI/AMD to fund ASIC development internally, but the deep-pocketed companies probably find the risk level unappealing.

I don't like pre-order uncertainty any more than anyone else (442 days and counting for my BFL order, I think), but I also don't like the idea of my ASIC supplier being under the thumb of banking interests.

Interesting dilemma.

 

[Bogart]

Can you inform us what products has your company delivered "on-time" before?

Lancelot:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=187549.0

Indeed, my Black Arrow Lancelots were delivered on-time.

[fpgaminer]

WARNING:  When registering for their website, your password gets emailed to you.  A big security no-no.  Nothing like feeling safe handing over a couple grand.  I think I'll cancel my order.

Fixed.

[Flying Hellfish]

The GPU miner market has been doing just fine with only ATI/AMD supplying the lions share of the hardware. Yet in the ASIC hardware market we have how many players? Lots! It's high risk unsustainable, just a price war fueled by pre-order money.

Good point, but the GPU market pre-existed for gaming, so it's not an apples to apples situation. All the ASIC players are startups, or rather the ASIC line of business is a startup venture that presumably needs seed money even for an established company. The issue becomes whether the seed money should come from banks or from "us". A third possibility would be for some deep-pocketed existing company, say ATI/AMD to fund ASIC development internally, but the deep-pocketed companies probably find the risk level unappealing.

I don't like pre-order uncertainty any more than anyone else (442 days and counting for my BFL order, I think), but I also don't like the idea of my ASIC supplier being under the thumb of banking interests.

Interesting dilemma.

 

Banks and pre-orders are not the only viable ways to fund a start up.  They could raise capital other ways, like selling equity to investors (either a few large investors or many smaller investors).  What we have currently is very skewed risk to reward ratio in a bad way for the consumer and an extremely good way for the start up.  Miners are being treated as investomers, all the risk of an investor and all the reward of a customer.

Oddly enough the real business world would rarely if ever fund a start up with customer money, as this is a pretty good way to invite possible unwanted personal liability (even with an Llc) by under capitalizing a business (something a lot of people could find out if they are not very lucky).

[markm]

WARNING:  When registering for their website, your password gets emailed to you.  A big security no-no.  Nothing like feeling safe handing over a couple grand.  I think I'll cancel my order.

You don't immediately change your password when that happens?

Seems a lot of old code does that kind of silliness, not sure what merchant site package one would have to pick to get around it?

-MarkM-

[fpgaminer]

You don't immediately change your password when that happens?

I would, but if their merchant package is emailing me my plaintext password in a welcome email, it's likely their merchant package is also storing the passwords in plaintext.  I already don't feel comfortable sending large sums of money to a foreign company for a money printing machine; having an insecure website doesn't help me feel more comfortable.

That said, I do have some respect for blackarrow.  They've been professional from what I've seen, and have a decent track record.  That's why I wanted to buy-in, even if the unit isn't going to ROI.  I like buying cool tech and supporting cool companies.

Consider my warning notice overly harsh, on purpose, so as to nudge them into beefing up security.

[blackarrow]

When will there be more details available about the Lancelot trade-in option?

yea would like to know about trade-in option too thanks.

Please place the order online and write in the notes that you are a returning customer and would like to use the Lancelot credit against your order. We will not require you to send the Lancelot back until we can dispatch your new device but we will add the credit against your order straight away.

Regards!