Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[Bicknellski]

The GPU miner market has been doing just fine with only ATI/AMD supplying the lions share of the hardware. Yet in the ASIC hardware market we have how many players? Lots! It's high risk unsustainable, just a price war fueled by pre-order money.

Good point, but the GPU market pre-existed for gaming, so it's not an apples to apples situation. All the ASIC players are startups, or rather the ASIC line of business is a startup venture that presumably needs seed money even for an established company. The issue becomes whether the seed money should come from banks or from "us". A third possibility would be for some deep-pocketed existing company, say ATI/AMD to fund ASIC development internally, but the deep-pocketed companies probably find the risk level unappealing.

I don't like pre-order uncertainty any more than anyone else (442 days and counting for my BFL order, I think), but I also don't like the idea of my ASIC supplier being under the thumb of banking interests.

Interesting dilemma.

 

Banks and pre-orders are not the only viable ways to fund a start up.  They could raise capital other ways, like selling equity to investors (either a few large investors or many smaller investors).  What we have currently is very skewed risk to reward ratio in a bad way for the consumer and an extremely good way for the start up.  Miners are being treated as investomers, all the risk of an investor and all the reward of a customer.

Oddly enough the real business world would rarely if ever fund a start up with customer money, as this is a pretty good way to invite possible unwanted personal liability (even with an Llc) by under capitalizing a business (something a lot of people could find out if they are not very lucky).

https://bitfunder.com/assetlist

[blackarrow]

WARNING:  When registering for their website, your password gets emailed to you.  A big security no-no.  Nothing like feeling safe handing over a couple grand.  I think I'll cancel my order.

Sorry about that. It should be fixed now.

http://forum.cs-cart.com/topic/28294-hide-password-on-registration-mail/

[blackarrow]

You don't immediately change your password when that happens?

I would, but if their merchant package is emailing me my plaintext password in a welcome email, it's likely their merchant package is also storing the passwords in plaintext. 

We're using cs-cart which does not store the passwords in plain text.

[blackarrow]

You have promised credit card payment option soon. Is a matter of days or months?
I know a person who decided to buy elsewhere just because of CC available there and not here.

We have added 2 hours ago Paypal. Please let us know if you encounter any issues.

We're looking into accepting credit cards directly as well, but it might take a while.

Regards!

This link does not yet show PayPal (or CC) payment options: http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/payments.html

Is that the page you have updated? Is it just a propagation delay?

We have updated the payment system. PayPal option is listed when you checkout your cart. If you choose PayPal it will redirect you to Standard PayPal payment procedure: fill in login details, PayPal validating transaction and order is placed and status changed to Processed on our website. Customers already started paying through PayPal so it is working.

We will update the info in the Menu as well. Thank you for letting us know. We have overlooked creating a page regarding how to pay with PayPal.

Accepting cards will come it is not something you just decide and you put it there. We depend on how fast the bank will accept the application, creating the merchant account, configuring the website and so on. It is not something which we can do by ourselves. We have no idea how long will it take. Sorry about this.

[vesperwillow]

business is a startup venture that presumably needs seed money even for an established company. The issue becomes whether the seed money should come from banks or from "us".

I don't like pre-order uncertainty any more than anyone else (442 days and counting for my BFL order, I think), but I also don't like the idea of my ASIC supplier being under the thumb of banking interests.

If it's coming from us they should be more than capable to explain all aspects of their model/plans, much like you would if you were going to a bank for a loan or going in front of investors--they want to know what's going on to see how much risk there is vs reward. When these companies are hesitant to do that, buyers should take extra care with their decision.

Not to mention in most real-life scenarios, you're not using 100% of the crowdfunding as your required capital--it's usually part of it, or, you're limiting sales quantities the first run and only requiring partial payment from the crowd. IE get in on this big mining machine, it's retail cost is $5000. Pay $2000 now and when we're entering the final phase of building, you'll be required to remit the remainder of payment. And you constantly let folks know about milestones met. This builds trust super quickly.

I like the idea of where blackarrow is going, but they're dodging basic questions. To make claims against a competitor and then try to use the same math to put themselves in a better light, without providing the support for it, is kindof unprofessional. Directly asked about it at least 3 times, dodged all of them, dancing around the issue. That makes me wonder.

I mean if you're going to say "my system will ROI but my competitor's wont" and then someone runs the math and calls BS, you should respond to that.

The positives going for them are previous product delivery and Paypal. Bigger positive would be offering refunds like KNC does, that would overcome some issues.

I'm definitely interested but right now, this isn't a serious choice to toss money at.

[aigeezer]

business is a startup venture that presumably needs seed money even for an established company. The issue becomes whether the seed money should come from banks or from "us".

I don't like pre-order uncertainty any more than anyone else (442 days and counting for my BFL order, I think), but I also don't like the idea of my ASIC supplier being under the thumb of banking interests.

If it's coming from us they should be more than capable to explain all aspects of their model/plans, much like you would if you were going to a bank for a loan or going in front of investors--they want to know what's going on to see how much risk there is vs reward. When these companies are hesitant to do that, buyers should take extra care with their decision.

Not to mention in most real-life scenarios, you're not using 100% of the crowdfunding as your required capital--it's usually part of it, or, you're limiting sales quantities the first run and only requiring partial payment from the crowd. IE get in on this big mining machine, it's retail cost is $5000. Pay $2000 now and when we're entering the final phase of building, you'll be required to remit the remainder of payment. And you constantly let folks know about milestones met. This builds trust super quickly.

I like the idea of where blackarrow is going, but they're dodging basic questions. To make claims against a competitor and then try to use the same math to put themselves in a better light, without providing the support for it, is kindof unprofessional. Directly asked about it at least 3 times, dodged all of them, dancing around the issue. That makes me wonder.

I mean if you're going to say "my system will ROI but my competitor's wont" and then someone runs the math and calls BS, you should respond to that.

The positives going for them are previous product delivery and Paypal. Bigger positive would be offering refunds like KNC does, that would overcome some issues.

I'm definitely interested but right now, this isn't a serious choice to toss money at.

Yes, I share those concerns. I think if BFL hadn't soiled the nest so much I'd be inclined to order now from blackarrow. I'm not trying to get rich from mining, but I'm not trying to get poor from it either. It's not blackarrow's fault, but there is a lot of wariness in the air - perhaps it should have been there all along but it wasn't, and so now the pendulum swings towards extreme caution for a while.

I've just signed up at blackarrow's site but I'm not quite ready to order. Lots of good responses from blackarrow but a few gaps yet. BFL's legacy, perhaps.

[whiteEAGLE]

Hello!

1) Are there cheaper shipping methods to Europe countries available?
( current $ 70,-- for prospero x1)

2) Or is it planed to install reseller in Europe?

[blackarrow]

Hello!

1) Are there cheaper shipping methods to Europe countries available?
( current $ 70,-- for prospero x1)

2) Or is it planed to install reseller in Europe?

We are looking into a cheaper but fast carrier. As soon as we find one we will adjust the fees accordingly for all orders. We probably need one more week to solve this.

There is a UK representative in plan. We welcome other resellers.

[DoomDumas]

Very interested..

Can you provide us with details about how the final price of the unit will be calculted when you will be ready to ship.

Thanks for your time, wish you the best.

[aigeezer]

I'm trying to do a bit of "due diligence" digging - this is not a hostile post.     

The site http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/ has IP address 50.87.87.85 and its server is apparently in Provo, Utah. The only other site hosted by this server is cardreaderfactory.com according to http://www.urlvoid.com/ip/50.87.87.85/

Back in May there was some kind of group buy for Lancelots from cardreaderfactory that collapsed (I think): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193129.0 - I was not paying attention to that thread at the time.

I'm wondering if blackarrow could provide details on the history and relationships involved, and could perhaps comment on the choice of Provo, Utah for a server site.

[blackarrow]

If it's coming from us they should be more than capable to explain all aspects of their model/plans, much like you would if you were going to a bank for a loan or going in front of investors--they want to know what's going on to see how much risk there is vs reward. When these companies are hesitant to do that, buyers should take extra care with their decision.

Not to mention in most real-life scenarios, you're not using 100% of the crowdfunding as your required capital--it's usually part of it, or, you're limiting sales quantities the first run and only requiring partial payment from the crowd. IE get in on this big mining machine, it's retail cost is $5000. Pay $2000 now and when we're entering the final phase of building, you'll be required to remit the remainder of payment. And you constantly let folks know about milestones met. This builds trust super quickly.

We are considering this. We have done it before with Lancelot(Group manufacturing). We will make a Poll on our website to see if this something that customers are interested in.

I like the idea of where blackarrow is going, but they're dodging basic questions. To make claims against a competitor and then try to use the same math to put themselves in a better light, without providing the support for it, is kindof unprofessional. Directly asked about it at least 3 times, dodged all of them, dancing around the issue. That makes me wonder.

I mean if you're going to say "my system will ROI but my competitor's wont" and then someone runs the math and calls BS, you should respond to that.

What we are trying to say is:
 - We do not know what will happen with Bitcoin difficulty/revenue in February or December or even tomorrow. We do not avoid questions. We do not have an answer. Nobody has. On that date in February we will sell cheaper than our competition. This is our promise. If products from competition will have ROI in February than our products will have as well.

Hope this statement is more clear.  

[darkfriend77]

If it's coming from us they should be more than capable to explain all aspects of their model/plans, much like you would if you were going to a bank for a loan or going in front of investors--they want to know what's going on to see how much risk there is vs reward. When these companies are hesitant to do that, buyers should take extra care with their decision.

Not to mention in most real-life scenarios, you're not using 100% of the crowdfunding as your required capital--it's usually part of it, or, you're limiting sales quantities the first run and only requiring partial payment from the crowd. IE get in on this big mining machine, it's retail cost is $5000. Pay $2000 now and when we're entering the final phase of building, you'll be required to remit the remainder of payment. And you constantly let folks know about milestones met. This builds trust super quickly.

We are considering this. We have done it before with Lancelot(Group manufacturing). We will make a Poll on our website to see if this something that customers are interested in.

I like the idea of where blackarrow is going, but they're dodging basic questions. To make claims against a competitor and then try to use the same math to put themselves in a better light, without providing the support for it, is kindof unprofessional. Directly asked about it at least 3 times, dodged all of them, dancing around the issue. That makes me wonder.

I mean if you're going to say "my system will ROI but my competitor's wont" and then someone runs the math and calls BS, you should respond to that.

What we are trying to say is:
 - We do not know what will happen with Bitcoin difficulty/revenue in February or December or even tomorrow. We do not avoid questions. We do not have an answer. Nobody has. On that date in February we will sell cheaper than our competition. This is our promise. If products from competition will have ROI in February than our products will have as well.

Hope this statement is more clear.  

You could put this as a price protection in your Terms & Conditions .... :-)

[blackarrow]

I'm trying to do a bit of "due diligence" digging - this is not a hostile post.     

The site http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/ has IP address 50.87.87.85 and its server is apparently in Provo, Utah. The only other site hosted by this server is cardreaderfactory.com according to http://www.urlvoid.com/ip/50.87.87.85/

Back in May there was some kind of group buy for Lancelots from cardreaderfactory that collapsed (I think): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193129.0 - I was not paying attention to that thread at the time.

I'm wondering if blackarrow could provide details on the history and relationships involved, and could perhaps comment on the choice of Provo, Utah for a server site.

Cardreaderfactory is a different business fully equipped and experienced to sell online. We have used it to sell Lancelot. We did not accept group buy at that time and we do not accept now. But we welcome resellers. The reason why we do not accept group buy was explained in this thread. Please read it.

Also please read the BlackArrow thread for Lancelot sales: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=187549.0 It will give you more perspective about history and relationships.

We have now decided to keep the business separate in order to avoid confusions.

We fully understand your concern and you are welcome to visit our office any time. The office address is on our website at http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/contact-us.html

[vesperwillow]

If it's coming from us they should be more than capable to explain all aspects of their model/plans, much like you would if you were going to a bank for a loan or going in front of investors--they want to know what's going on to see how much risk there is vs reward. When these companies are hesitant to do that, buyers should take extra care with their decision.

Not to mention in most real-life scenarios, you're not using 100% of the crowdfunding as your required capital--it's usually part of it, or, you're limiting sales quantities the first run and only requiring partial payment from the crowd. IE get in on this big mining machine, it's retail cost is $5000. Pay $2000 now and when we're entering the final phase of building, you'll be required to remit the remainder of payment. And you constantly let folks know about milestones met. This builds trust super quickly.

We are considering this. We have done it before with Lancelot(Group manufacturing). We will make a Poll on our website to see if this something that customers are interested in.

I like the idea of where blackarrow is going, but they're dodging basic questions. To make claims against a competitor and then try to use the same math to put themselves in a better light, without providing the support for it, is kindof unprofessional. Directly asked about it at least 3 times, dodged all of them, dancing around the issue. That makes me wonder.

I mean if you're going to say "my system will ROI but my competitor's wont" and then someone runs the math and calls BS, you should respond to that.

What we are trying to say is:
 - We do not know what will happen with Bitcoin difficulty/revenue in February or December or even tomorrow. We do not avoid questions. We do not have an answer. Nobody has. On that date in February we will sell cheaper than our competition. This is our promise. If products from competition will have ROI in February than our products will have as well.

Hope this statement is more clear.  

This does clear it up more for me in my head. I suppose I was too nailed to the numbers. Thanks.

[DoomDumas]

25% more Ghs than the cheaper competitor ?  In the .28nm chip competitor or any die size ?
I'm willing to pre-order but need more info about how the price will be determined.

Will you still honor this "not yet clear" promise even if the competitors sells for less than 1$/Ghs ?
Or even lower than 0.50$/Ghs ?

This scenario is quite possible IMO..

What we are trying to say is:
 - We do not know what will happen with Bitcoin difficulty/revenue in February or December or even tomorrow. We do not avoid questions. We do not have an answer. Nobody has. On that date in February we will sell cheaper than our competition. This is our promise. If products from competition will have ROI in February than our products will have as well.

Hope this statement is more clear.  

So if you sell 1 $ less than the cheapest competitor for the same Ghs, promise fullfilled ?
25% less $ / ghs ?

Wish you can provide cd some official numbers.. please

[bbxx]

25% more Ghs than the cheaper competitor ?  In the .28nm chip competitor or any die size ?
I'm willing to pre-order but need more info about how the price will be determined.

Will you still honor this "not yet clear" promise even if the competitors sells for less than 1$/Ghs ?
Or even lower than 0.50$/Ghs ?

This scenario is quite possible IMO..

can you make new way to preorder ?
30% now, 70% on delivery ?
like on normal service buisness ?

[vesperwillow]

25% more Ghs than the cheaper competitor ?  In the .28nm chip competitor or any die size ?
I'm willing to pre-order but need more info about how the price will be determined.

Will you still honor this "not yet clear" promise even if the competitors sells for less than 1$/Ghs ?
Or even lower than 0.50$/Ghs ?

This scenario is quite possible IMO..

can you make new way to preorder ?
30% now, 70% on delivery ?
like on normal service buisness ?

This I already mentioned to them. You and I agree.

[blackarrow]

25% more Ghs than the cheaper competitor ?  In the .28nm chip competitor or any die size ?
I'm willing to pre-order but need more info about how the price will be determined.

Will you still honor this "not yet clear" promise even if the competitors sells for less than 1$/Ghs ?
Or even lower than 0.50$/Ghs ?

This scenario is quite possible IMO..

can you make new way to preorder ?
30% now, 70% on delivery ?
like on normal service buisness ?

This I already mentioned to them. You and I agree.

And we have posted the poll on our website http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/sales-preference.html .

[vesperwillow]

25% more Ghs than the cheaper competitor ?  In the .28nm chip competitor or any die size ?
I'm willing to pre-order but need more info about how the price will be determined.

Will you still honor this "not yet clear" promise even if the competitors sells for less than 1$/Ghs ?
Or even lower than 0.50$/Ghs ?

This scenario is quite possible IMO..

can you make new way to preorder ?
30% now, 70% on delivery ?
like on normal service buisness ?

This I already mentioned to them. You and I agree.

And we have posted the poll on our website http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/sales-preference.html .

That's a good start, but I think bbxx and I were referring to partial preorder payment where the equipment price remains the same.

Not knocking you, just saying that's where we were coming from.

[miter_myles]

25% more Ghs than the cheaper competitor ?  In the .28nm chip competitor or any die size ?
I'm willing to pre-order but need more info about how the price will be determined.

Will you still honor this "not yet clear" promise even if the competitors sells for less than 1$/Ghs ?
Or even lower than 0.50$/Ghs ?

This scenario is quite possible IMO..

can you make new way to preorder ?
30% now, 70% on delivery ?
like on normal service buisness ?

This I already mentioned to them. You and I agree.

And we have posted the poll on our website http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/sales-preference.html .

That's a good start, but I think bbxx and I were referring to partial preorder payment where the equipment price remains the same.

Not knocking you, just saying that's where we were coming from.

+1