KNC, 100% of their hashing is currently going into their own pocket.

[gmaxwell]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

[DPoS]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

like yourself??

[ASIC-K]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

like yourself??

LOL +1 MILLION.

BURRRRRN

and so so so true.

[gmaxwell]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

like yourself??

I guess I'm a little slow, feel free to spell it out for me.

[1l1l11ll1l]

I guess I feel a bit left out of all the trolling—

KNC is now mining on their hardware, while customers wait for it to ship:

http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/17Czc8RVL3FU5T2MLx2zLbRnpfBNgH9vFo

This is, as far as I know, 100% of the KNC hashrate in existence. Pedantically speaking, it means that KNC is violating their 5% commitment.

Testing doesn't involve using the production network. Production mining is unlikely to test finding blocks— whereas testnet, or replays of past found blocks are more complete tests.  Mining on the mainnet increases the difficulty and takes income from customers who are waiting on units that will be late.  Every bit of earlier mining is worth large amounts of future mining due to expected growth.

I do not understand why miners keep funding mining hardware companies that mine in competition with their own customers.

Who's account would you propose that they test on? This would need to be 100% fair to all buyers of the KNC hardware of course.

[RoadStress]

Why aren't you also blaming Avalon? There are numerous reports of units full of dusts and with pre-made settings.

Why would I be blaming Avalon? I'm not blaming KNC.  If anyone at all, I'm blaming their customers.  Avalon customers— well, post-batch-1 customers have already been punished enough to not get flak from me, dontcha think?

I'm generally pretty harsh on hashing power consolidations. They undermine the security assumptions of the Bitcoin system. Review my posts if you like.

I'll play your game. Why isn't Avalon's name right now near KNC? Also why didn't you blame/warn Avalon's customers after people reported that they got their Batch 2 units full of dust?

[Bicknellski]

yeeah , on a testnet !?
And everybody will troll they fixed the tests, like that wil work.....

No they wont— it's not possible to "fix" testnet mining any more than mainnet mining, hashing is it's own proof....  at least not anymore than you have on the mainnet:  How do you know thats KNC hardware hashing and not just a bitfury device or a couple avalons/bfls?

Business men everywhere are all the same.  What they do is limited by the laws of where they operate?
If you think otherwise, you are very naive.

And the contracts they form with their investors and customers. I wonder why so many people here give money to companies that use it to turn around and compete with them?

It's proof it's hashing. They will stop, just shut up for a day.

No, it's not proof— after all, it could just as easily be some other hardware. They won't stop either— perhaps temporarily, but you can go find pictures of their build-out in the thread.

I find is strange that Moderators like gmaxwell are taking this path. I thought this forum was neutral to everything and let user decide for themselves.

So, my ability to just use the forum like anyone else vanishes when I say something you don't like? I see.

What do you have to win here by doing this?

Nothing. I was idling in Eligius' IRC channel and Bargraphics linked to the announcement. I thought it was ridiculous that KNC was mining on mainnet, competing with their own customers, while they are waiting on now late equipment. Thus the post.

If a mod can troll the reputation of a wannabe legit ASIC manufacturer, whyfore can the mod NOT receive such damage to his rep?

"troll the reputation"— uh, pointing something out, and saying that I'd be furious about it if I were a customer...  If their reputation is going to be dinged by some disapproval, then perhaps they ought not do things that are so easily disapproved of.   If you don't think this is a reason someone should be unhappy, then please feel free to ignore it.

Here is a question... what is your take on the Monarch offering from BFL?

More than willing to listen to gripes about KnC from Mods or respected members of the community but why are those same people so 'SELECTIVE' when they want to make a point? That is why I suspect mods should just steer clear of it all together and or balance out their disdain and give equal time to the more obvious recalcitrant companies who post blatant lies like BFL and Avalon.

[frankenmint]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

like yourself??

I guess I'm a little slow, feel free to spell it out for me.

A little slow? Well if that isn't the understatement of the year.  At least I spam shit ppl wanna see like a personal phone number for sonny yifu or josh.   If you would'very just waited a few more days to post this thread....I probably wouldn't care....you are clearly showing bias to them that wasn't shown with bfl nor Avalon....to think I used to respect you greg

They show a video of hashing rather than saying they did it holy shit good for them u get quick to say of they are taking your money and mining your earnings away.  Why don't you talk shit about vendors giving away hashspower for charge backs and the highest bidder.

Yes you're comming off as slow and sharp as a marble.

[mruiter]

Hilarious desperation of trolling

Goes well with the hilarious desperate defenses. ... If you don't think there is anything wrong with how some miner hardware companies compete with their own customers even while late on their delivers— then there is nothing to defend and nothing to see here.

yo mamma is big, no yours ,no mine, no yours

You are really making my namecall of crybaby to you count .
Proof is deliverd by yourself.

This is the first time i'm putting somebody on ignore, and its a mod for god sake too.

This thread is waste of bits, go back and mine....

[Vorksholk]

Back to a somewhat theoretical base in logic, I can see the point gmaxwell is making, but for all intents and concerns, one Jupiter mining publicly is no big deal. There are a certain number of units that should have shipped today. If those didn't ship, then certainly they should box up the Jupiter they have mining and ship it out, but if they met their shipment goal for today (all 1st-day shipments sent) then them mining with it is a mute point. To get technical, they didn't breach their contract, as their 5% agreement was based on hashing power sold.

Direct quote from KnCMiner Website: "We will not mine with more than 5% of the hash rate we sell, and we will never mine with customer hardware."
Two main things above: will not mine with more than 5% of the hash rate they SELL. They sold tons of hashing power. I can guarantee you they sold more than 100TH of mining power, so they are currently in the clear. Notice it doesn't say 5% of shipped, although even with that wording, they would likely be fine as well. The 2nd interesting point is that they will never mine with customer hardware. This is technically not a production unit, as it's not in a commercial case. Thereby, it could be easily considered either a quality-control unit, or one that KnC reserved for themselves. Assuming they don't ship that unit to a consumer at any point in time (unless as part of a liquidation), they don't violate the 2nd part as well.

TL;dr: KnC says they won't mine with >5% of the hashing power they sell, they certainly sold more than 10TH total. Also, this unit could be not shipped to a consumer/customer, making it not a customer hardware unit.

Disclosure: I have a day-2 shipping order; Saturn, whoop-whoop.

[Carlton Banks]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

Half kidding. You stoned the hornets nest though, I think we're in agreement there. In truth, there's probably no good time to make a small splash with a KNC based thread, may as well accentuate the wailing and flailing instead 

[RoadStress]

Back to a somewhat theoretical base in logic, I can see the point gmaxwell is making, but for all intents and concerns, one Jupiter mining publicly is no big deal. There are a certain number of units that should have shipped today. If those didn't ship, then certainly they should box up the Jupiter they have mining and ship it out, but if they met their shipment goal for today (all 1st-day shipments sent) then them mining with it is a mute point. To get technical, they didn't breach their contract, as their 5% agreement was based on hashing power sold.

Direct quote from KnCMiner Website: "We will not mine with more than 5% of the hash rate we sell, and we will never mine with customer hardware."
Two main things above: will not mine with more than 5% of the hash rate they SELL. They sold tons of hashing power. I can guarantee you they sold more than 100TH of mining power, so they are currently in the clear. Notice it doesn't say 5% of shipped, although even with that wording, they would likely be fine as well. The 2nd interesting point is that they will never mine with customer hardware. This is technically not a production unit, as it's not in a commercial case. Thereby, it could be easily considered either a quality-control unit, or one that KnC reserved for themselves. Assuming they don't ship that unit to a consumer at any point in time (unless as part of a liquidation), they don't violate the 2nd part as well.

TL;dr: KnC says they won't mine with >5% of the hashing power they sell, they certainly sold more than 10TH total. Also, this unit could be not shipped to a consumer/customer, making it not a customer hardware unit.

Disclosure: I have a day-2 shipping order; Saturn, whoop-whoop.

Nice one! Whoop-whoop!

[Loredo]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

Half kidding. You stoned the hornets nest though, I think we're in agreement there. In truth, there's probably no good time to make a small splash with a KNC based thread, may as well accentuate the wailing and flailing instead 

I was shutting down this open window on the browser, and thought I'd see what the Esteemed Moderator had to say about this.

If it ain't the ants, it's the bees.

You're trying to have a nice picnic, blanket on the ground, and next thing you know there's ants in the potato salad.

You move to a table, and -bam- some kid runs by, throws a rock in the bee hive, and then you've got bees swarming around.

Sometimes you should just let it go and eat at Appleby's.

[Vycid]

Testing doesn't involve using the production network. Production mining is unlikely to test finding blocks— whereas testnet, or replays of past found blocks are more complete tests.  Mining on the mainnet increases the difficulty and takes income from customers who are waiting on units that will be late.  Every bit of earlier mining is worth large amounts of future mining due to expected growth.

Cry me a river. The impact on customers is minuscule. KnC deserves it, why should they throw those hashes away?

Think of it as an incentive to get to market on time - if you do, you get the coins mined from testing. BFL, fittingly, will not get that profit.

[shapemaker]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

So, basically, you made this thread just to troll? A moderator? Sheesh...

[Biomech]

However true, I would criticise the timing of the OP  . You have angered the natives, and it seems that as far as rational debate goes, you can choose between sacrificial heart eating and crucifixion.

Are you kidding? I'm perfectly happy to watch people with poor emotional control and interesting agendas show their true colors.

So, basically, you made this thread just to troll? A moderator? Sheesh...

In his defense, he did say so in the OP

As per my post before, I think he has a valid point, trolling or not. I disagree, but it's not an unreasonable position.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

if a troll is in the forest, under a bridge, and no one pays him a toll - has the troll done its job by preventing others passage?
lets change around some semantics:
If a global moderator feels compelled to nitpick a company for using an address on their 1st prototyped completed unit and yet turns around and accepted bfl money for years...does that make him a global Troll???  JOHN K??

It's a bit trolly to pick on KNC with only .5 TH online— which is why I made the "I guess I feel left out of the trolling" comment. But I really don't understand why people tolerate manufacturers competing with them. Battered wife syndrome perhaps.

Its nothing as I see avalon testing some terahashes in eligius in months and keep customers to wait and waste of ROI.

It's funny, before avalon had products in existence they made a nice strongly worded comment about how competent testing doesn't involve mining on the network (a position I agree with). As far as I know they didn't mine at scale on the mainnet to test batch 1 units... but the later stuff?  Yea. That also falls into my bin of "why the heck are people tolerating this??".

Seriously???

I've been telling ppl they're full of it for 600+ pages.

What will it take for everyone to get in on the program?

 They haven't made a heck of a lot - http://blockexplorer.com/address/17Czc8RVL3FU5T2MLx2zLbRnpfBNgH9vFo Anyway, they've been working all weekend so maybe they need some beer money - or Champagne money - and they deserve it!  Finally a company that is a class act and still we aren't happy...
 Kudos to KnC!!!

Take care

$37.81? That's less than what I paid for the hotel I'm now in here in Paducah, KY.

[Vycid]

if a troll is in the forest, under a bridge, and no one pays him a toll - has the troll done its job by preventing others passage?
lets change around some semantics:
If a global moderator feels compelled to nitpick a company for using an address on their 1st prototyped completed unit and yet turns around and accepted bfl money for years...does that make him a global Troll???  JOHN K??

It's a bit trolly to pick on KNC with only .5 TH online— which is why I made the "I guess I feel left out of the trolling" comment. But I really don't understand why people tolerate manufacturers competing with them. Battered wife syndrome perhaps.

Its nothing as I see avalon testing some terahashes in eligius in months and keep customers to wait and waste of ROI.

It's funny, before avalon had products in existence they made a nice strongly worded comment about how competent testing doesn't involve mining on the network (a position I agree with). As far as I know they didn't mine at scale on the mainnet to test batch 1 units... but the later stuff?  Yea. That also falls into my bin of "why the heck are people tolerating this??".

Seriously???

I've been telling ppl they're full of it for 600+ pages.

What will it take for everyone to get in on the program?

 They haven't made a heck of a lot - http://blockexplorer.com/address/17Czc8RVL3FU5T2MLx2zLbRnpfBNgH9vFo Anyway, they've been working all weekend so maybe they need some beer money - or Champagne money - and they deserve it!  Finally a company that is a class act and still we aren't happy...
 Kudos to KnC!!!

Take care

$37.81? That's less than what I paid for the hotel I'm now in here in Paducah, KY.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=paducah+ky&hnear=Paducah,+McCracken,+Kentucky&gl=us&t=h&z=12

I am deeply amused by the nearby town of "Metropolis, KY".

Also, holy shit, I should retire:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3660-Pecan-Dr-Paducah-KY-42001/2129662390_zpid/

[RChevalier]

Well that was a nice read.

Two things I did not know about this forum previously:

1). Something tells me Loredo is a sharp cookie.
2). I finally figured out what Moderators actually do here.

[Dabs]

2). I finally figured out what Moderators actually do here.

They moderate? They modulate? They modify?

Maybe he's a variable, in statistics, a qualitative or quantitative variable that affects the direction and/or strength of the relation between dependent and independent variables.