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Author Topic: Let There Be Dark! Bitcoin Dark Wallet  (Read 49165 times)
Peter Todd
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November 03, 2013, 01:46:41 AM
 #61

So they take a giant dump on Bloom filtering - which I proposed and partly designed to solve this very problem - then it turns out that their "Obelisk server" doesn't have any alternative solution. It has a cool name but no solutions to difficult privacy problems. So in fact your privacy is much better protected by using the regular P2P protocol, talking to the regular P2P network and uploading a noisy Bloom filter (or sharded set of noisy filters). Too bad Amir regards that scheme as impure, rushed and a "debasement", otherwise he could just use it in Dark Wallet.

Oh yeah, last thing - he says that his preferred design is "the future" and "the reality", despite that the wallet Amir praises most for its usability (Hive) uses the P2P network with Bloom filtering. That seems to contradict his own point. You can easily build usable wallets, today, that talk directly to the P2P network with no special servers required, and it's more decentralised and gives better privacy to do so.

Before any users get themselves hurt here by this misinformation, be warned that right now Electrum-based wallets are significantly more private than any of the bloom filter using wallets. No bloom-filtering wallet that I'm aware of supports connections through Tor, so when you send a transaction you immediately reveal what coins are in your wallet. Those wallets also all reuse addresses which links all your transactions together, again making it easy to see how many Bitcoins you have an where you've sent money too. Bloom filters also give statistical information about what coins are in your wallet, and because they don't use fixed servers and because Bitcoin node-to-node connections are unencrypted, they are giving out this information constantly both to anyone monitoring your internet connection as well as any node you happen to connect too. (and you have no idea who you are connecting too)

With Electrum on the other hand right now the main Electrum client supports Tor right out of the box, and there are Electrum servers running as Tor hidden services. Electrum clients don't re-use addresses, ensuring that your transactions aren't linked together, and the set of all people who can learn any of that information is well known and small: whatever Electrum server you decide to use. While Electrum hasn't done this yet AFAIK, it'd be technically very easy for them to add the equivalent of bloom filtering, partial-prefix-queries. (essentially you'd ask the Electrum server for all transactions for addresses starting with 1abcd, a very close cousin to what bloom filters do) They could also choose to support bloom filters directly in their current form.

I'll add that Electrum clients also check transactions fully against block headers these days, so they're just as secure as bloom-filter-using wallets once a transaction is confirmed. When a transaction is unconfirmed in practice they're safer, because who is telling you that the transaction is valid is well known. In addition it's easy to make an Electrum client check that the inputs exist by querying the Electrum server for them, something not yet possible with bloom filters.

Personally I use Armory and have a few full nodes, but if that weren't an option for me I'd be using Electrum without a doubt.

Anyway, as you can see on the dark wallet page, their complaints about bloom filters are because they made serious disk-io-starvation DoS attacks possible that still aren't solved, as well as the complaint that a minority of the development team wants to coerce ever Bitcoin node into supporting them.

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TheBitcoinTote
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November 03, 2013, 01:47:54 AM
 #62

@Gengix (Amir T)

You have listed a whole bunch of code repos but Oblisk and a few others are thin on the documentation and Oblisk does not even have a thread for dedicated discussion.  Can those involved start providing more documentation on how to use the components involved in this project?
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November 03, 2013, 02:10:29 AM
 #63

Quote from: retep link=topic=322328.msg3467639#msg3467639
Before any users get themselves hurt here by this misinformation, be warned that right now Electrum-based wallets are significantly more private than any of the bloom filter using wallets. No bloom-filtering wallet that I'm aware of supports connections through Tor, so when you send a transaction you immediately reveal what coins are in your wallet. Those wallets also all reuse addresses which links all your transactions together, again making it easy to see how many Bitcoins you have and where you've sent money too.

Great point.

We created Tor.framework for our wallet with the intention of it being usable for the "apps" in Hive, as well as the network itself. Unfortunately at the moment there is no proxy support in bitcoinj, so it is only available to the former. This is something we're not happy about and we hope to see proxy support in bitcoinj soon. If we had the knowledge and resources we would try to add it ourselves, but alas...

Hive, a beautiful, secure wallet with an app platform for Mac OS X, Android and Mobile Web. Translators wanted! iOS and OS X devs see BitcoinKit.
Tweets @hivewallet. Skype us here. Donations appreciated at 1HLRg9C1GsfEVH555hgcjzDeas14jen2Cn
mikegogulski
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November 03, 2013, 02:26:45 AM
 #64

However, I do declare, Mike Hearn and Gavin Andresen, that you seem to be complete assholes.
The insults and anger you aim toward Mike and Gavin seems pretty over the top. I read the G+ link you gave, and while it's true that they are less anti-government than you, it looks like they just have a genuine disagreement with you about priorities and tactics.

I'm probably more on your side of the debate about how much priority should be given to making Bitcoin something that can be used to escape government control, but even if Mike and Gavin were the scum that you claim they are, what's the purpose of all the over the top insults?  

Shocking, isn't it? Welcome to the internet. By responding here, (*edit: it has become) that you don't understand my context is your problem.

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mikegogulski
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November 03, 2013, 02:33:46 AM
 #65

We created Tor.framework for our wallet with the intention of it being usable for the "apps" in Hive, as well as the network itself. Unfortunately at the moment there is no proxy support in bitcoinj, so it is only available to the former. This is something we're not happy about and we hope to see proxy support in bitcoinj soon. If we had the knowledge and resources we would try to add it ourselves, but alas...

Eh, no problem. Anyone who is serious about security can do things like:

Code:
nohup torify hive &

or make that into an init script or whatever the devil works on mack-Os, and just be all torrily.

Likewise, one can create an entire VM, rather trivially, that will only communicate with the internet over Tor. There's some local firewall doojaggering to do and some configgiblartybarfasts to set, but it's not a terribly big deal. Per-OS and per-distro install scripts can take care of most of it.

Once the core tech is solid, sheeeee-it.... we can frickin' pipe you into crypto-pony utopia Wink

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Mike Hearn
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November 03, 2013, 09:46:32 AM
 #66

Now, I don't mean to say that the two of you go around crushing kittens or such, but look:

- You two CONSTANTLY harp on Amir's fuckup with Bitcoinica. Amir DID fuck up there, bigtime.

Actually I think it's the first time I've ever mentioned it, and only because it came up in this thread - Amir was asking Gavin why he wasn't allowed on the security list and his prior treatment of sensitive data was quoted as a reason. Our community grew a lot since then, so some people aren't familiar with that incident.

Can you please point to examples of me or Gavin "constantly harping on" about it? I don't even like to bring it up, it's ancient history when measured in Bitcoin-time, but it's also a relevant answer to the question posed.

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Being a majority protects people from assaults.

(...because that worked so well in Warsaw, Godwinbergheimgrad, etc.)

A more relevant analogy would be PayPal in the USA, which came under severe governmental assault and eventually survived because they managed to build up (via eBay) a large enough userbase that they became difficult to mess with, politically. Too many ordinary citizens were enjoying auctions on eBay and would have made a huge stink if something had happened to them.

I suggest reading this page, it's very interesting:

http://www.screw-paypal.com/history.html

PayPal actually started out as being very much in line with Bitcoin's vision. But they weren't able to sustain it in the centralised model and were nearly wiped out. Hopefully Bitcoin will do better, but the reason there's such a focus on regulatory issues in the USA is because the USA is an incredibly hostile environment in which to do business. Ultimately the only way to avoid shut down and jail there is a combination of finding ways to work within the rules and building up a large enough userbase, quickly enough, to give political cover.

I would be more impressed by Mike's position if he found a way to go back to the USA, then set up an ran an unlicensed, anonymous exchange for a decent length of time. He knows perfectly well that isn't possible though.
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November 03, 2013, 11:56:42 AM
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A more relevant analogy would be PayPal in the USA, which came under severe governmental assault and eventually survived because they managed to build up (via eBay) a large enough userbase that they became difficult to mess with, politically.
I think your "because" clause is a mischaracterisation. It's certainly true that the userbase was a relevant element, but it's more the case that PayPal survived because it bent to the government's will.
If the will of the userbase really mattered, we wouldn't hear the constant horror stories that we do about PayPal. They were allowed to succeed on the government's terms. Much like with banking and credit cards, a balance is struck so that a certain section of users (mainly: those in the US with an appropriate financial circumstance) can have a tolerable experience moving money around online, and is largely hidden from the downside of usurious fees, but anybody falling outside those boundaries is royally screwed over on a regular basis.

Quote
I would be more impressed by Mike's position if he found a way to go back to the USA, then set up an ran an unlicensed, anonymous exchange for a decent length of time. He knows perfectly well that isn't possible though.
That's not much of an argument against Mike Gogulski's position; afaik he doesn't claim to either want or be able to do such a thing. You can hardly accuse someone of hypocrisy in this regard who gave up his citizenship. To reinvoke Godwin's law, would you be unimpressed by the argument of a Jew who failed to go back to Nazi Germany to set up his business?
The argument is whether his position is practical, I think, not consistent.

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klee
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November 03, 2013, 01:43:14 PM
 #68

Now, I don't mean to say that the two of you go around crushing kittens or such, but look:

- You two CONSTANTLY harp on Amir's fuckup with Bitcoinica. Amir DID fuck up there, bigtime.

Actually I think it's the first time I've ever mentioned it, and only because it came up in this thread - Amir was asking Gavin why he wasn't allowed on the security list and his prior treatment of sensitive data was quoted as a reason. Our community grew a lot since then, so some people aren't familiar with that incident.

Can you please point to examples of me or Gavin "constantly harping on" about it? I don't even like to bring it up, it's ancient history when measured in Bitcoin-time, but it's also a relevant answer to the question posed.

Quote from: Gavin Andresen
Being a majority protects people from assaults.

(...because that worked so well in Warsaw, Godwinbergheimgrad, etc.)

A more relevant analogy would be PayPal in the USA, which came under severe governmental assault and eventually survived because they managed to build up (via eBay) a large enough userbase that they became difficult to mess with, politically. Too many ordinary citizens were enjoying auctions on eBay and would have made a huge stink if something had happened to them.

I suggest reading this page, it's very interesting:

http://www.screw-paypal.com/history.html

PayPal actually started out as being very much in line with Bitcoin's vision. But they weren't able to sustain it in the centralised model and were nearly wiped out. Hopefully Bitcoin will do better, but the reason there's such a focus on regulatory issues in the USA is because the USA is an incredibly hostile environment in which to do business. Ultimately the only way to avoid shut down and jail there is a combination of finding ways to work within the rules and building up a large enough userbase, quickly enough, to give political cover.

I would be more impressed by Mike's position if he found a way to go back to the USA, then set up an ran an unlicensed, anonymous exchange for a decent length of time. He knows perfectly well that isn't possible though.
So why are you staying in US and work for the NSoogleA?
Seriously...

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November 03, 2013, 02:18:24 PM
 #69

NSoogleA

That aggregation didn't really work.

The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
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November 03, 2013, 02:20:46 PM
 #70

NSoogleA

That aggregation didn't really work.
Lol I know, but could not find something else!

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November 03, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
 #71

some people worship profit: https://darkwallet.unsystem.net/bitcoinica.html
bitcoin attracts the worst types of lying sociopaths.
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November 03, 2013, 03:12:15 PM
 #72

NSoogleA

That aggregation didn't really work.
Lol I know, but could not find something else!

But the idea behind and the question is real good...

America is out of controle!
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November 03, 2013, 03:17:49 PM
 #73

NSoogleA

That aggregation didn't really work.
Lol I know, but could not find something else!

But the idea behind and the question is real good...

America is out of controle!
Mike is a star on his own - he needs no Google light to shine, that's all...

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November 03, 2013, 10:42:16 PM
 #74

some people worship profit: https://darkwallet.unsystem.net/bitcoinica.html
bitcoin attracts the worst types of lying sociopaths.

wow, thanks for writing this

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November 03, 2013, 10:57:31 PM
 #75

some people worship profit: https://darkwallet.unsystem.net/bitcoinica.html
bitcoin attracts the worst types of lying sociopaths.

wow, thanks for writing this

Agreed, very interesting. Thank you Amir.

Roger, Zhou, Tihan, Peter are fully named in your story.

Nefario
Donald
Patrick
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Erik
Charlie

Are not. Care to help newbies understand the founding legends by adding their full name, please?




[OVER] RIDDLES 2nd edition --- this was claimed. Look out for 3rd edition!
I won't ever ask for a loan nor offer any escrow service. If I do, please consider my account as hacked.
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November 04, 2013, 07:47:47 AM
 #76

50k won't go far if we pay salaries. we have to be smart with the money and invest in common permanent infrastructure. we should find better ways to pay for ongoing costs by creating sustainable businesses.

Exactly right, in my humble opinion.

Me too. I run a small software company. I would consider offering this (coding, infrastructure setup and maintenance for a year, customer support for a year) for €200,000 high risk for my company.

I suspect you're going to have a hard time figuring out how to arrange yourselves without becoming a Corporation of some State and still have a business model that sustains sufficient quality assurance and customer support to make Dark Wallet a success.

PS: I'm really happy to see other implementations happening!  Diversity is great!

PPS: y'all should give the Foundation at least a LITTLE bit of credit for funding CoinPunk...

Firstly, I salute you and the others like Mike Hearn for reacting to this "attack" and the insults in such a calm way and maintaining communication.

I think Mike Gogulski insulting you guys is inappropriate and doesn't help anyones cause. If you know him, it seems a bit less harsh, though... he has this provocative troublemaker personality and he says what he thinks without much regard for anything. I actually like this about him, but I guess I would feel differently if I was the target.

In general, there seem to be very strong emotions involved among many individuals here. I know: lots of money was lost, people screwed up bigtime (not only the people visible) and behaved in inappropriate ways.

This is not surprising given that we're all human, there's money invovled and we're all up to something really, really huge together... truly a world-changer for a freer, more prosperous world. I think most can agree with this. Let's not fuck this up over our egos or money.

The extent to which dark wallet marketing attacks the bitcoin foundation might be just that: human emotions and marketing. Of course strong idealism cannot be denied and I think it's good (I share it to a large extent)

In the end, I don't think the "Bitcoin Divide" is so great. We all have very similar motivations and ideologies. Diversity is good, as Gavin thankfully recognizes (and probably most here).

Everyone here knows there's an approach to solving problems called "divide and conquer". It is also used in conflicts of any kind, tptb use it all over the place, and I think we should be very watchful of it being used against the Bitcoin movement.

My monetary support flows to the Dark Wallet Project, the Bitcoin Foundation, many other projects and also to that guy attempting to raise a bitcoin flag on the south pole.

These endeavours are all important to me and I fail to see how one can really harm the other as long as the protocol and blockchain are not harmed in the process.

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molecular
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November 04, 2013, 07:51:30 AM
 #77

We are providing an alternative. With 1% of the BF resources, we will do 10x more development and continue serving the community. Free market ftw.

Yes! You guys are extremely efficient and I know you pay a high cost in your personal lives for it. I thank you for that. Donations are the least one can do to support you.

On the other hand you have to recognize that the goal of BF is not (only) development. So calling them inefficient might not be accurate.

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November 04, 2013, 07:58:37 AM
 #78

RE: bitcoin-security mailing list:  bottom line is I don't trust you. I think you have made irresponsible decisions in the past, and I don't trust that you would handle sensitive security issues responsibly.  Happily there have been approximately zero cross-implementation security issues in the last six months, so it is more of a theoretical issue that you're not on the list....

Can someone explain to me what the fear is here? That he would disclose some information to the public?

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November 04, 2013, 08:11:02 AM
 #79

BIP 70 should be about trustless mixing instead of using certificates and trying to move away from Bitcoin.

Cheap and sexy Bitcoin card/hardware wallet, buy here:
http://BlochsTech.com
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November 04, 2013, 08:40:26 AM
 #80

BIP 70 should be about trustless mixing instead of using certificates and trying to move away from Bitcoin.
The popularity of Dark Wallet and how well the donation go prove that!

@Bitcoin Foundation : WRONG PRIORITIES!


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