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Author Topic: Computer Scientists Prove God Exists  (Read 24427 times)
BitChick
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November 04, 2013, 03:58:10 PM
 #201


But He does not murder us. I suppose you could say that the fact that there is a Hell and that we choose to go there is God murdering us?

I'm more worried about your belief in hell than anything else.

We all should be worried about Hell.

The 'Hell' you speak of is a fabrication of the Catholic church. It's wrong, manipulative and you need to get your facts right before throwing it around at people.

The Bible uses primarily 2 words in relation to death, 'she'ohl' in Hebrew, and 'hai'des' in Greek. These words are often substituted for the word 'hell' in some bible translations, primarily Catholic ones. Cross referencing scriptures indicates that these terms 'she'ohl' and 'hai'des' are more likely references to the common grave of mankind, a symbolic reference to where all the dead are. No reference to the common catholic teaching of hell fire or torment, but a figurative location where most of mankind sleep in death (peacefully).

Perhaps you mistook it for the reference in the Bible to Gehenna? Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem in which dead bodies unworthy of burial were thrown, as well as common garbage which was constantly on fire to avoid disease etc. Jesus used Gehenna to illustrate eternal destruction for people who would not come back from death. No constant torment or hell fire.

The only legitimate use of the word should be in reference to hell'ing potatoes, i.e. to bury them, or cover them up.

And this I agree with you in part.  "Hell" is overused for sure.  The English translators thought they were doing us a service by translating Sheol, Hades into Hell and it causes problems.  I have gone on tirades about the problem this causes on some of my other posts on different threads.  So I totally get that.

That said, eternal damnation is something to be concerned about regardless and it is not a fabrication. 

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November 04, 2013, 04:01:32 PM
 #202

Hey I just imagined that I am God! That should be proof enough for you all to bow down and worship me, right?
This guy needs to use air-quotes around the word scientist when he calls himself a computer "scientist".

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November 04, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
 #203

I'm not sure, that having sheep herders as a prerequisite to creation is a scientific way to approach things, especially in the realm of mathematics. This thread is about finding God in logic and I just demonstrated that no matter how you spin it, it is always there. Smiley

But the idea that the universe is just composed of our imagination, and that if we can imagine it, it is real, is not based on any science or logic. The sheep herders were not a prerequisite to creation, they were a prerequisite to making up the mythology fairy tale about a being we call god. And I think what I just demonstrated is that yes, if you spin fantasies to fit your own beliefs and imaginations, you can make your own fantasies and imaginations be whatever the hell you want them to be. That's not a very big discovery. It also has no bearing on science or the real world.

Quote
Yes I agree that this universe has me in it. I was born from my parents.

It doesn't explain how you got here at all. Your parents became yours only after the fact. A year before your birth there was no such concept as "your parents", because all people were equally relevant to you at that point.

There was no "me" a year before I was born, and thus no "me" for anyone to be relevant to. I wasn't even half a DNA in my dad's sperm at that time. Hell, I wasn't even part of any cell that was in my dad's body at the time, since most of our body's cells get replaced every 3 to 6 months. At most I was some dirt, ready to feed some plant, that was eventually going to feed some cow or chicken. Obviously not sentient, and especially not me.

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The only logical conclusion is that you existed at least as a concept, as an idea, before your physical birth.

Doesn't it take for some conscious brain to form an idea? Who was having me as an idea in their head that far back? I know it wasn't my parents. And even if it was, were they arare of the piece of dirt that was to become a plant that was to become food that was to become my dad that was become sperm that would eventually make me? I highly doubt it.

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November 04, 2013, 04:04:15 PM
 #204

And this I agree with you in part.  "Hell" is overused for sure.  The English translators thought they were doing us a service by translating Sheol, Hades into Hell and it causes problems.  I have gone on tirades about the problem this causes on some of my other posts on different threads.  So I totally get that.

That said, eternal damnation is something to be concerned about regardless and it is not a fabrication. 

Wait... did you just say, "You're right, hell is a totally made up place, and it was bad of those people to mess up the translation and make up such a place, but we should still worry about going to hell?" How does that even...  Huh

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November 04, 2013, 04:08:26 PM
 #205

Based on the premise that Gödel's axioms(the stuff proves rely on) is true the conclusions(god exists) is also true. But it's still up to oneself to decide if the axioms are true or not.

Gödel is indeed mind-bending, confusing, and very scary stuff.

So faith in Gödel may replace faith in Göd? Because if you have the first, then you have a proof of the second, and need no more faith for that?

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November 04, 2013, 04:20:04 PM
 #206

Based on the premise that Gödel's axioms(the stuff proves rely on) is true the conclusions(god exists) is also true. But it's still up to oneself to decide if the axioms are true or not.

Gödel is indeed mind-bending, confusing, and very scary stuff.

So faith in Gödel may replace faith in Göd? Because if you have the first, then you have a proof of the second, and need no more faith for that?
No, faith in what gödel wrote/said implies faith in god.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_ontological_proof

On the other hand, gödel also proved that a system of axioms strong enough to represent the natural numbers are either incomplete(there exists true statements that can not be proven) or inconsistent(there exists a statement that can both be proven and dis-proven).

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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November 04, 2013, 04:22:40 PM
 #207


But He does not murder us. I suppose you could say that the fact that there is a Hell and that we choose to go there is God murdering us?

I'm more worried about your belief in hell than anything else.
We are in hell.

The universe is a chaos of infinite probabilities.

Only the most probable and logic universe emerge from all the patterns.

Every consciousness act as an observer of the universe.

There is no universe without an observer.

The sum of all observers make the world what it is.

If most of observers believe in the existence of god, it should make god exist.

The only limit is that you cannot make or do something that you believe is impossible.

The only unknown for me is what happen when 2 consciousness observe at the same time with opposite believes ?

Some people believe in god, some don't. Is there stronger consciousness than others ? Are we actually fighting, right now, for god to exist or not ?

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November 04, 2013, 04:33:53 PM
 #208

Based on the premise that Gödel's axioms(the stuff proves rely on) is true the conclusions(god exists) is also true. But it's still up to oneself to decide if the axioms are true or not.

Gödel is indeed mind-bending, confusing, and very scary stuff.

So faith in Gödel may replace faith in Göd? Because if you have the first, then you have a proof of the second, and need no more faith for that?
No, faith in what gödel wrote/said implies faith in god.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_ontological_proof

On the other hand, gödel also proved that a system of axioms strong enough to represent the natural numbers are either incomplete(there exists true statements that can not be proven) or inconsistent(there exists a statement that can both be proven and dis-proven).

Yes, I recall my Gödel fondly from undergraduate studies, and I grew up with Games magazine, so lots of Hofstreider
I have Gödel Escher Bach on the reading list for my 13yr old for this year.  Though I may start him out with Raymond Smullyan first.
The kid took a practice LSAT test last week and knocked it out of the park, I need stuff like this to keep him humble and distracted from his career of playing and crafting video games so his computer has downtime to mine him some litecoins so he can pay his own academic expenses.

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November 04, 2013, 04:35:09 PM
 #209

Aaaaaaalll of that still doesn't explain why you would want to interfere with god's plan should god want to take your children to heaven. Do you think your children will go to hell or somewhere else if you didn't give them vaccines, and they were to die before they had the chance to suffer through years of life on earth?

More b/s. Christian fundamentals do not teach that God's plan is to take everyone to heaven. Sounds like more Catholic crap. The original 'plan' implemented by God was to 'Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it', nothing about dying and going to heaven.

In fact I once had a conversation with an ex-catholic who's daughter was killed being run over by a car. When his local priest tried to console him by telling him the usual nonsense of 'God wanted her as a flower in his garden', the man asked why God chose 'being hit by a car' as his method of taking her. The priest could not provide a sane answer to that and the man came to the conclusion the priest was full of shit and stopped being a Catholic.

Another stupid teaching, which has scarred the reputation of organized religion terribly.

Even though I am not Catholic I can somewhat understand what the priest was trying to accomplish. I think the priest was trying his best to comfort your friend.  It is really difficult to know what to say to someone who is grieving like that.  Often the best thing is to do is say nothing at all.  Just being there is what is needed most of the time and it was foolish for the priest to respond like he did it sounds like.

That said, this world is filled with horrible things, death, sickness, abuse, etc.  But we should be hopeful that there is a place where there is no more death, sickness, pain and suffering.  

I know we would like to think that this place is for everyone regardless of their choices in this life, but that is not how God ordained it.  We can argue with Him.  We can fight Him.  We can raise our fist at Him and tell Him how incredibly unfair it all seems.  But how fair was it for Him to receive beatings and even being crucified on a cross in one of the most horrific deaths this world ever had just for our sins?  That seems the most "unfair" thing of all to me and I am forever thankful for that.

It is all in our perception of things.  

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November 04, 2013, 04:35:52 PM
 #210

Hey I just imagined that I am God! That should be proof enough for you all to bow down and worship me, right?
This guy needs to use air-quotes around the word scientist when he calls himself a computer "scientist".

God is not a measure of how much others worship you, but a measure of how much you can create. If you can create anything at all, then the next logical step would be to ask - can I create more?

Then you get to the point, when you're wondering if you can create the condition, where you would begin facing the limits to your creative powers and that leads to a paradox. Or maybe it's the paradox, that led you to begin creating in the first place, because paradox simply is, there was nothing before it, there is nothing after it, but it cannot just settle to rest either, that's what existence really is and that's where we live in Smiley
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November 04, 2013, 04:55:17 PM
 #211

I'm not sure, that having sheep herders as a prerequisite to creation is a scientific way to approach things, especially in the realm of mathematics. This thread is about finding God in logic and I just demonstrated that no matter how you spin it, it is always there. Smiley

But the idea that the universe is just composed of our imagination, and that if we can imagine it, it is real, is not based on any science or logic. The sheep herders were not a prerequisite to creation, they were a prerequisite to making up the mythology fairy tale about a being we call god. And I think what I just demonstrated is that yes, if you spin fantasies to fit your own beliefs and imaginations, you can make your own fantasies and imaginations be whatever the hell you want them to be. That's not a very big discovery. It also has no bearing on science or the real world.

Weren't those sheep herders also prerequisite to the fairy tale you call "science"?
So, if having a logical conclusion is a mere fantasy of my imagination, then it must be as real as what you call science or "real" world. There is no difference.

Quote
Yes I agree that this universe has me in it. I was born from my parents.

It doesn't explain how you got here at all. Your parents became yours only after the fact. A year before your birth there was no such concept as "your parents", because all people were equally relevant to you at that point.

There was no "me" a year before I was born, and thus no "me" for anyone to be relevant to. I wasn't even half a DNA in my dad's sperm at that time. Hell, I wasn't even part of any cell that was in my dad's body at the time, since most of our body's cells get replaced every 3 to 6 months. At most I was some dirt, ready to feed some plant, that was eventually going to feed some cow or chicken. Obviously not sentient, and especially not me.

So now you have two singularities, one where physical universe emerged out of Big Bang and the other where you as a consciousness emerged out of that physical universe, where there was no prior concept of you. What makes you choose the model with two singularities instead of just one, where you exist unconditionally and the rest is a product (sometimes very elaborate) of your imagination. Shouldn't Occam's razor apply here?

Quote
The only logical conclusion is that you existed at least as a concept, as an idea, before your physical birth.

Doesn't it take for some conscious brain to form an idea? Who was having me as an idea in their head that far back? I know it wasn't my parents. And even if it was, were they arare of the piece of dirt that was to become a plant that was to become food that was to become my dad that was become sperm that would eventually make me? I highly doubt it.

There is no conclusive evidence, that brain creates consciousness, but there is some evidence (tabooed by "science" by the way), that brain receives consciousness. And if brain does really only receive consciousness that exists unconditionally, then it is consistent with the model, where you imagine the Universe and then you put yourself there as a player.

Imagining might involve building very complex mathematical model with physical laws, so it is not just fantasy.
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November 04, 2013, 05:07:44 PM
 #212

And this I agree with you in part.  "Hell" is overused for sure.  The English translators thought they were doing us a service by translating Sheol, Hades into Hell and it causes problems.  I have gone on tirades about the problem this causes on some of my other posts on different threads.  So I totally get that.

That said, eternal damnation is something to be concerned about regardless and it is not a fabrication.  

Wait... did you just say, "You're right, hell is a totally made up place, and it was bad of those people to mess up the translation and make up such a place, but we should still worry about going to hell?" How does that even...  Huh

Hell is not a made up. The English translators were not perfect and thought that simplifying "Hades" "Sheol" and putting in "The Grave" or "Hell" would make it easier for the readers to understand.  This just leads to more problems though with misunderstandings though.  

There is still a "lake of fire" that all that are not found written in the book of life will be cast into along with the demons.  Basically Hades is thrown into there: See "Revelation20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire." This is the second death, the lake of fire.  This is what most people think of when they think "Hell."  It has become an over simplification though.  "Hell" is really the second step.  I believe that there is a waiting place where the dead go first.  There Jesus preaches to the spirits in a timeless place so that all have the chance to accept or reject Him. Perhaps those that reject Him here do not get a second chance there?  That I am not sure of.  The story of Lazarus and the Rich man in the Bible illustrates this concept and describes what Hades is like pretty well.
Quote
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

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November 04, 2013, 05:09:26 PM
 #213

Hell is not a made up.
[references to very old and entertaining fantasy book]
...

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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November 04, 2013, 05:20:18 PM
 #214

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God exists in the understanding. If God exists in the understanding

This the flawed premise.

Our "understanding" of infinity is based on metaphor, not experience.

Godel's error is romanticizing mathematics.

Quote
The question of whether there is a "transcendent" mathematics independent of human thought is a meaningless question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Mathematics_Comes_From#Human_cognition_and_mathematics


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November 04, 2013, 05:32:11 PM
 #215

So bitchick, you still haven't answered my question if your god gets off on people's suffering.

By your own words he knows how we feel about everything and everything we will do in our lifes.  He knows if we will sin or not, even through our free will.

So why did he create hundreds of millions of people he knew he would have to drown later in life? 


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November 04, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
 #216

So bitchick, you still haven't answered my question if your god gets off on people's suffering.

By your own words he knows how we feel about everything and everything we will do in our lifes.  He knows if we will sin or not, even through our free will.

So why did he create hundreds of millions of people he knew he would have to drown later in life? 



Yours is an age-old question that many a theologian has debated.  I think until we personally grasp and understand at a deep level how much God truly loves us, in spite of the suffering we endure and realize that even God endured great suffering for us on the cross, we will not be content with the way this life is and the fact that the course of history has allowed for the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and so on.  I already said that a common thread, if you read the Bible in it's entirety, is how greatly God is grieved when he has to resort to disasters such as these.  God does not "get off" on our suffering.  He suffers as we suffer.  One of my earliest recollections as a child was when I was crying due to the fact I was being abused on a daily basis.  I asked God "Why?"  He said, "I am crying too."  That is all I needed to hear as a little four year old girl.  It seems simple yet is was so profound to me and I have never doubted that He understands.  I have doubted some things that have not made since to me since then though.  We can question Him, but faith comes with understanding that He loves us and has plan in it all and will work everything for good of those called according to his purpose.

One of my favorite Christian writers and Theologians is CS Lewis.  Many of his works are laced with answers to difficult questions such as these.  Here is one quote:
Quote
The problem of reconciling human suffering with the existence of a God who loves, is only insoluble so long as we attach a trivial meaning to the word "love", and look on things as if man were the centre of them. Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake. "Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." We were made not primarily that we may love God (though we were made for that too) but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the divine love may rest "well pleased".”
― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

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November 04, 2013, 06:06:24 PM
 #217

Yours is an age-old question that many a theologian has debated.  I think until we personally grasp and understand at a deep level how much God truly loves us, in spite of the suffering we endure and realize that even God endured great suffering for us on the cross, we will not be content with the way this life is and the fact that the course of history has allowed for the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and so on.  I already said that a common thread, if you read the Bible in it's entirety, is how greatly God is grieved when he has to resort to disasters such as these.  God does not "get off" on our suffering.  He suffers as we suffer.  One of my earliest recollections as a child was when I was crying due to the fact I was being abused on a daily basis.  I asked God "Why?"  He said, "I am crying too."  That is all I needed to hear as a little four year old girl.  It seems simple yet is was so profound to me and I have never doubted that He understands.  I have doubted some things that have not made since to me since then though.  We can question Him, but faith comes with understanding that He loves us and has plan in it all and will work everything for good of those called according to his purpose.

So, your answer is that your god gets off on pain and suffering, his own or others.  You say he suffers as we do, so he purposely causes himself suffering.

As a four year old with an active imagination, you asked yourself why were you suffering, then you thought of a solution that was "all you needed to hear".   I've made myself feel better as well, and it didn't have anything to do with a fairy tale.

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November 04, 2013, 06:29:57 PM
 #218

Yours is an age-old question that many a theologian has debated.  I think until we personally grasp and understand at a deep level how much God truly loves us, in spite of the suffering we endure and realize that even God endured great suffering for us on the cross, we will not be content with the way this life is and the fact that the course of history has allowed for the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and so on.  I already said that a common thread, if you read the Bible in it's entirety, is how greatly God is grieved when he has to resort to disasters such as these.  God does not "get off" on our suffering.  He suffers as we suffer.  One of my earliest recollections as a child was when I was crying due to the fact I was being abused on a daily basis.  I asked God "Why?"  He said, "I am crying too."  That is all I needed to hear as a little four year old girl.  It seems simple yet is was so profound to me and I have never doubted that He understands.  I have doubted some things that have not made since to me since then though.  We can question Him, but faith comes with understanding that He loves us and has plan in it all and will work everything for good of those called according to his purpose.

So, your answer is that your god gets off on pain and suffering, his own or others.  You say he suffers as we do, so he purposely causes himself suffering.

As a four year old with an active imagination, you asked yourself why were you suffering, then you thought of a solution that was "all you needed to hear".   I've made myself feel better as well, and it didn't have anything to do with a fairy tale.

Vod, consider this.

When God created the first couple he intended for humans to populate the earth and enjoy all of the things which he had created on earth for them to enjoy, animals, foods, landscapes, beauty (the list goes on). At this point we can assume that there was no intention for sin or pain as the first couple were considered 'perfect', in health and in mind.

At this point we come to the eating of the apple, or what some people refer to as the 'issue of universal sovereignty'. Did the first couple have the right to rule themselves or did we need God to rule for us? The example was posed to the first couple by who the bible describes as Satan. This particular point is crucial to understanding the concept of our pain in suffering in life. Consider this analogy.

A maths teacher is teaching his students a complex maths problem, when he is finished instructing them he asks if every one understands it. One pupil states that the teacher's method is not the best, and in fact he has a better method than the teacher. The teacher has two options, he can scold the child for standing against him, or he can hand over the chalk and ask the child to show how his way is better.

If he scolds the child, the rest of the classroom will forever doubt the teachers method was the better and will forever wonder if the student is smarter than the teacher. However if the teacher gives the student the chalk and he displays that in actual fact his method was not better and classroom see an example of this, then he has proven his ability and from then onwards, any time that pupil attempts to better the teacher in the future, the teacher has earned the right to reject his claims that 'the pupil can do it better'.

Consider the pupil in this example as mankind. In the garden of eden, the first couple declared to god that they thought they could rule themselves better without his help. Fast forward several thousand years and we are still that pupil, making errors on the blackboard with the chalk, desperately trying to prove that we can do it better. We have tried every type of government we can think of, we have killed, invented, cloned, and researched, and our world is still steeped in pain and suffering. God is essentially a bystander just now and has no part in how this world is being played out. The bible states that eventually when man has tried everything, when we run out of types of government or new cures, or higgs boson machines, then God will step in and correct the earth and reinstate his ruler ship. After this point, his ruler ship will remain and no one will ever have the right to challenge him for eternity as the point has been proven.

Consider if this universe goes on for another 100 billion years under Gods ruler ship, and we terraform entire solar systems and populate the universe, hundreds of billions of people living peacefully. It would almost make 7000 years of our human suffering worth it, just to prove his point.
deadweasel
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November 04, 2013, 06:35:36 PM
 #219

Consider examining the evidence which exists against the made-up stories in the bible.  Your mind will be blown.  

Psychology has proven that people like this will stick to the story in their head because it is more coherent to them than is the evidence based approach which requires scientific rigor.  Since they don't have any kind of rigor at all, they cannot even begin down the road of examining the evidence based approach.  This will hard-line them deeper into their 'coherent' (in their mind) worldview, no matter how obviously unfounded by a questioning mind.

So this could be a LOOOOONG conversation.

maz
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November 04, 2013, 06:37:41 PM
 #220

Consider examining the evidence which exists against the made-up stories in the bible.  Your mind will be blown.  

Psychology has proven that people like this will stick to the story in their head because it is more coherent to them than is the evidence based approach which requires scientific rigor.  Since they don't have any kind of rigor at all, they cannot even begin down the road of examining the evidence based approach.  This will hard-line them deeper into their 'coherent' (in their mind) worldview, no matter how obviously unfounded by a questioning mind.

So this could be a LOOOOONG conversation.

Trust me I've investigated evolution heavily, it did not satisfy me at all. In fact if anything I came to the conclusion that evolutionists are more blindly zealot than a lot of religious people. and that's saying something!
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