The 94% Con by Jon Montroll

[dave111223]

It probably means Neo&Bees is one of Ukyo's largest creditors, they have probably come in to make sure they get whats owed to them first.

So they keep everything quiet for "legal questions" while they drain whatever ukyo is good for, then let other creditors fight over the scraps.

[stereotype]

I don't understand why Ukyo knowing there are problems with weex still happily was receiving funds there.
He did not give a warning to not send funds to weex. That is bad sign.

Another thing is private data collection. He shutdown the exchange, but prior to that weex collected impressive amount of personal data of non-US citizens.

So we have these puzzles:
- withholding withdraws
- collecting personal data
- taking more money in
- outsourcing the problem to neobee
- mystery promise of big weex being transformed to something extraordinary

Maybe this is just drama-show to attract more attention to NeoBee ?!
In early days Polish exchange BitChange was hacked and MtGox stepped in to reimburse all missing coins.
Everybody where happy and mtgox gained broad attention and credibility.

The fact that he was accepting funds proves that he is a scammer. In fact there is still no sign that WeEx stopped accepting deposits. You can go all the way to the deposit address and there is no warning. I think that you can still deposit there! (To be honest, I haven't tried it  ) . To me this is a clear sign that it is a scam.

On the other hand, I do not believe that Neo&Bee wants/can bail out WeEx. We are already talking about $1.5M and this might just be the tip of the iceberg. This Neo&Bee business is something that probably no honest person wants to know about.

It indicates, Jon convinced himself he could/would be able to sort it. Obviously, he failed miserably, but the fact he was accepting funds and there were no warnings means the charge of fraud, theft, or receiving monies by deception, makes it a whole lot easier to pursue legally, if people choose that route.

The word 'scam' is not appropriate here.  

[thecoinjournal]

This chat log is very informative though a little bit long: http://pastebin.com/VnYL63dr

[talkcoinkris]

It resembles situation in Poland two years ago. There was a polish bitcoin exchange - bitomat.
Whole exchange worked on virtual machine.
By operator mistake bitcoin wallet has gone. All, 17k BTC has been lost.

Bitomat owner made a deal with mtGox. They paid all 17BTC to users just by overtaking bitomat exchange with all users.

Maybe Ukyo lost BTC and now he's looking for a sponsor?

[moribana]

I don't understand why Ukyo knowing there are problems with weex still happily was receiving funds there.
He did not give a warning to not send funds to weex. That is bad sign.

Another thing is private data collection. He shutdown the exchange, but prior to that weex collected impressive amount of personal data of non-US citizens.

So we have these puzzles:
- withholding withdraws
- collecting personal data
- taking more money in
- outsourcing the problem to neobee
- mystery promise of big weex being transformed to something extraordinary

Maybe this is just drama-show to attract more attention to NeoBee ?!
In early days Polish exchange BitChange was hacked and MtGox stepped in to reimburse all missing coins.
Everybody where happy and mtgox gained broad attention and credibility.

The fact that he was accepting funds proves that he is a scammer. In fact there is still no sign that WeEx stopped accepting deposits. You can go all the way to the deposit address and there is no warning. I think that you can still deposit there! (To be honest, I haven't tried it  ) . To me this is a clear sign that it is a scam.

On the other hand, I do not believe that Neo&Bee wants/can bail out WeEx. We are already talking about $1.5M and this might just be the tip of the iceberg. This Neo&Bee business is something that probably no honest person wants to know about.

It indicates, Jon convinced himself he could/would be able to sort it. Obviously, he failed miserably, but the fact he was accepting funds and there were no warnings means the charge of fraud, theft, or receiving monies by deception, makes it a whole lot easier to pursue legally, if people choose that route.

The word 'scam' is not appropriate here.  

He is still accepting deposits or at least there is nothing on the site indicating otherwise. Since at this point Ukyo explicitly said in irc chats that he was not sure how and when he can pay back, this is already deception. People who deposit now might think that they can withdraw any time. 

[SebastianJu]

The chat doesnt sound that he cant access the funds anymore. I first feared someone called the police and everything now is blocked for months until solved. It sounds more like he waits for developers.

But what worries me is this:

[01:47] <dexX7> on a scale from 1 to 10.. how screwed are weex users?
[01:47] <@Ukyo> Immediately or overall ?
[01:47] <@Ukyo> and how many points do you adjust for time
[01:48] <@Ukyo> CuWireBeard: I dont have a clear answer on that at this time.
02[01:48] * nsa_ (82e1f343@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.225.243.67) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[01:48] <arcticwolf> Hey ukyo, can the remaining ukyo.loans be redeemed some time in the future?
[01:48] <dexX7> hm.. let's use timeframe 0-2 weeks, 2-6 weeks, 6-more weeks?
[01:48] <@Ukyo> CuWireBeard: at this point, I would ask that until the next big announcement is made that we wait and see how that turns out
[01:49] <@Ukyo> i dunno 3~4 ?
[01:49] <@Ukyo> random guess at this arbitrary number
[01:49] <@Ukyo> i expect all users to be taken care of in the end
[01:49] <dexX7> okay, in a timeframe of 3-4 weeks, how screwed are weex users on a scale from 1-10?
[01:50] <@Ukyo> arcticwolf: yes, loan will be taken care of. I am not abandoning it.
[01:50] <dexX7> *after
[01:50] <@Ukyo> dexX7: its hard to describe without the details of the plan.

He speaks about Ukyo.loan but does it mean the wallet problem will be solved in another 3-4 weeks too? I could not accept another 3-4 weeks. If thats the plan than i prefer moving all the keys into another walletsoftware.

And then... its hard to describe how screwed weex-users are without the plan? Will we get our bitcoins or not?

[fligen]

Relevant here. Have some additional information on Ukyo too, I will be following up there for now and will publicly disclose later. I can tell you from blockchain analysis it would take a miracle for everyone to get money back, if any at all.

I called a recent phone number for Jon that I have dug up through sources. Didn't record it, but convo went like this.

Jon: Picks up phone, silence
Me: Hello, is this Jon Montroll?
Jon: Yes. Who are you?
Me: I'm a weexchange user. I need access to my funds. I will not wait indefinitely.
Jon: How did you find this phone number?
Me: Do you have enough liquid BTC on hand to pay all weex deposits?
Jon: Where did you find this number?
Me: Do you?

Jon hanged up. Further calls were unanswered.

[lophie]

Relevant here. Have some additional information on Ukyo too, I will be following up there for now and will publicly disclose later. I can tell you from blockchain analysis it would take a miracle for everyone to get money back, if any at all.

I called a recent phone number for Jon that I have dug up through sources. Didn't record it, but convo went like this.

Jon: Picks up phone, silence
Me: Hello, is this Jon Montroll?
Jon: Yes. Who are you?
Me: I'm a weexchange user. I need access to my funds. I will not wait indefinitely.
Jon: How did you find this phone number?
Me: Do you have enough liquid BTC on hand to pay all weex deposits?
Jon: Where did you find this number?
Me: Do you?

Jon hanged up. Further calls were unanswered.

For the people who read this. We have his CURRENT address as well. Just saying.....

[tomywomy]

I see absolutely no alternative at this point to getting the legal authorities involved, immediately.

Ukyo's delays and evasions demonstrate that he cannot resolve this problem in a reasonable way.  

Frankly, I think the only thing we can expect now is for the truth of how he lost our money to come out, but if there is some left, it needs to be distributed according to a judge/trustee's direction.  And, in the truth coming out, we can learn enough to avoid a recurrence of this.  

Is Ukyo a thief or an failed businessman?  Did he spend the money we deposited or did he lose control of it?

Without the intervention of authority, Ukyo will continue to scramble and evade and things will get worse as he tries to dig his way out.

[WeexUser]

I called a recent phone number for Jon that I have dug up through sources.

From http://pastebin.com/GmnDCgJf:
<@Ukyo> blastbob: and speaking of that, I managed a full 2 hours of sleep before having to help a user so I am going to try to get some actual sleep again.

Let the man sleep...

[ffssixtynine]

I see absolutely no alternative at this point to getting the legal authorities involved, immediately.

Ukyo's delays and evasions demonstrate that he cannot resolve this problem in a reasonable way.  

Tomy, this is why Neo have got involved and why they made a statement today. Ukyo is not going anywhere.

One thing I am sure of is that going legal won't recover funds for anyone and is more likely to damage what's going on right now.

[tomywomy]

I see absolutely no alternative at this point to getting the legal authorities involved, immediately.

Ukyo's delays and evasions demonstrate that he cannot resolve this problem in a reasonable way.  

Tomy, this is why Neo have got involved and why they made a statement today. Ukyo is not going anywhere.

One thing I am sure of is that going legal won't recover funds for anyone and is more likely to damage what's going on right now.

You know more about the specifics than I do, but I have to respectfully disagree, and I stress the respectful part.  I think that with all the best intentions of everyone getting involved to help, they will only taint themselves and risk being implicated themselves.  Monies have surely been lost and mismanaged here and there are people with property claims who will have lost a lot of money.  Taking the matter into one's own hands, when it involves so many people, will open that person to accusations of wrongdoing when all is said and done.  If this were a smaller matter, like a failed group-buy, I would not be as worried, but we are talking about so much money here now, that a proper audit trail, freezing of discovered funds and ruling about how to distribute them - in general a proper due process - is required.  Ukyo quite frankly needs the protection and assistance of a due process too.  There's the stress of being questioned by police and having to get a lawyer, but the guy is under tremendous distress right now anyhow, and doesn't know what process to follow to get out of it.  He is potentially making his own situation worse.  

[ffssixtynine]

So what do you suggest? It looks that we'll lose our funds anyway and responsible ppl for this crap will flee free without any legal consequences.

Edited: Best read the actual post. Neo are trying to help Jon ensure gets us paid in full. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=348468.msg3732068#msg3732068

I do not want to see anyone damaging their chances, and hence my chance of getting my money back. And yours. And everyone else's.

A huge amount of hours have been put into this over the last few days and many more will be needed. So yes, we do have to wait this one out and give Danny et al the chance to help fix this.

Going legal will achieve little other than waste time, vast amounts of money, and probably damage our chances of seeing our money. In my view, knowing what I do, you wouldn't get an end result either.

Tomy, I completely understand your view but I can only point you to the above. It's very important that Neo are given the time they need to help make this work. It is being done properly and in ways you really can't imagine, but anyone throwing ukyo in front of a bus right now, legal or otherwise, is significantly bumping the chance of us saying goodbye to -all- our money. So as much as we're all angry, we need to do the right thing.

[stereotype]

Myself and ffssixtynine, have been swapping PM's on this matter for weeks now, and we havent really agreed on approach or what length of 'time' is adequate.

So, my line of acceptability past 2 weeks back. However, and i cant believe im typing this, i believe its reasonable to extend this sorry saga for another 7-14 days, and go with ffssixtynine's sentiments, given this apparent significant change in status.

Ive met Danny, and im forced to trust my own judgement on this one, and maintain that he can achieve great things. Big kudos coming if he can pull this off. 
   

[ffssixtynine]

Myself and ffssixtynine, have been swapping PM's on this matter for weeks now, and we havent really agreed on approach or what length of 'time' is adequate.

So, my line of acceptability past 2 weeks back. However, and i cant believe im typing this, i believe its reasonable to extend this sorry saga for another 7-14 days, and go with ffssixtynine's sentiments, given this apparent significant change in status.

Ive met Danny, and im forced to trust my own judgement on this one, and maintain that he can achieve great things. Big kudos coming if he can pull this off.  

+1

On the subject of time, it's only because I've been a bit more involved (emphasis on bit) that I've been able to see why it's needed. I'm in the same situation again (for better or worse).

[cryptoanarchist]

I think a private investigator is in order. Its pretty cheap to have someone look him up and do a little digging around.

I've heard all this crap before.

[tomywomy]

So what do you suggest? It looks that we'll lose our funds anyway and responsible ppl for this crap will flee free without any legal consequences.

Tomy, I completely understand your view but I can only point you to the above. It's very important that Neo are given the time they need to help make this work. It is being done properly and in ways you really can't imagine, but anyone throwing ukyo in front of a bus right now, legal or otherwise, is significantly bumping the chance of us saying goodbye to -all- our money. So as much as we're all angry, we need to do the right thing.

Everything is along the lines of "trust us, we can't tell you what's going on, but we're doing something."  This is not being handled well.  I did go to read the original thread as you suggested and immediately people are suspicious of what is going on.  Doing this behind a cloak is going to backfire.  Eventually the police will get involved and more people will have legal issues to deal with. 

I personally only have 1/10th of a bitcoin in all this, so I'm not personally fussed about the money so much as I am the disastrous situation this is for others. 

If this is only a technical glitch, all the more reason for Ukyo and Neo to go forward proactively to the police to say that there is an issue, not a scam and that they are working on it.  If the money is spent, loaned or otherwise gone, neo can't help and we need to let due process run its course on what is left. 

Again, this is a lot of money, not some mining group buy gone south.

[ffssixtynine]

1/10 of a Bitcoin? I wish that was my situ.

There's a post on the Neobee thread that says more is going to be said in the near future. Whatever the full story and however Neo think they can help, we need to give them that chance. If it turns out they can't, we'll know soon enough. I know it's being taken seriously though; ukyo needed external help.

[blastbob]

Either you have the money or not.

If NEO is there for the legal part vs some govermental setup. Good
If NEO is there for making the money show up in a magical way. Not Good.

[SebastianJu]

Relevant here. Have some additional information on Ukyo too, I will be following up there for now and will publicly disclose later. I can tell you from blockchain analysis it would take a miracle for everyone to get money back, if any at all.

Where is this blockchain analysis and why do you think the bitcoins are gone? I doubt its so easy to find things out.

I see absolutely no alternative at this point to getting the legal authorities involved, immediately.

Ukyo's delays and evasions demonstrate that he cannot resolve this problem in a reasonable way. 

Frankly, I think the only thing we can expect now is for the truth of how he lost our money to come out, but if there is some left, it needs to be distributed according to a judge/trustee's direction.  And, in the truth coming out, we can learn enough to avoid a recurrence of this. 

Is Ukyo a thief or an failed businessman?  Did he spend the money we deposited or did he lose control of it?

Without the intervention of authority, Ukyo will continue to scramble and evade and things will get worse as he tries to dig his way out.

Legal authorities? Now? When he is known in person, he is still communicating and it looks like he seems to work on it (NEOBEE)? If anyone manages to involve authorities and they close everything down so that ukyo cant access the wallet anymore and after a year of fighting we could get our bitcoins out only then i will switch my anger to this smart person. Really... what good will come out from this now?

This is different from other scams like labcoin. He is known in person and he has problems of some kind. But government involvement at this state will hurt more than help. I think they might even be able to format the harddisc with the wallet on it.

Saying that... i dont want to wait. If he has to wait for someone then he has to state this publicly. He has to come with the facts because this small pieces of nothing is nothing. It makes me angry only. While in fact i think he will have a good explaination. BUT HE NEEDS TO COME WITH THE FACTS!