NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[CIYAM]

I'm not reflecting in mirrors. My votes never appears in polls. My alt accounts do what they wanna do.

Well good to know we have your word you wouldn't game a poll but how could we really trust that and also trust everyone else?

(sorry - but I think that "polls" in forums are about the most stupid thing I've ever come across - I don't have polls in CIYAM Open for this exact reason)

[PeercoinEnthusiast]

Polls, polls, polls...

Polls on Bitcointalk are simply a reflection of the number of alt accounts you have.

So why would you want that to decide anything?

I wasn't referring to creating a poll in this cesspool called Bitcointalk, I meant on the community forums.  Yes, people will game the system... I'm suggesting simply checking the pulse, the same way we've handled other community actions in the past.

[PeercoinEnthusiast]

I'm not reflecting in mirrors. My votes never appears in polls. My alt accounts do what they wanna do.

Well good to know we have your word you wouldn't game a poll but how could we really trust that and also trust everyone else?

(sorry - but I think that "polls" in forums are about the most stupid thing I've ever come across)

No need to be 'sorry', you have an opinion.. it should be respected.

[CIYAM]

I wasn't referring to creating a poll in this cesspool called Bitcointalk, I meant on the community forums.  Yes, people will game the system... I'm suggesting simply checking the pulse, the same way we've handled other community actions in the past.

I think you need to carefully think how to do this as such things are very easily gamed.

I wish I had an answer as to how to do such things better but I don't - this is perhaps what this experiment is about as much as anything else.

[utopianfuture]

Polls, polls, polls...

Polls on Bitcointalk are simply a reflection of the number of alt accounts you have.

So why would you want that to decide anything?

I wasn't referring to creating a poll in this cesspool called Bitcointalk, I meant on the community forums.  Yes, people will game the system... I'm suggesting simply checking the pulse, the same way we've handled other community actions in the past.

We can do open poll when people voice their support for a position openly. The final vote for the logo was done that way.

Example : https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,1927.0.html

It is like the old-style town-hall meeting poll. "Raise your hands, please"

[pinarello]

Polls, polls, polls...
Is it true that hash didn't get a nessie for their work on logo?!

Hash was not the maker, it was a friend of him and he received 1000 NXT for it, but I think there is concensus in the community to give him 4000 NXT more.

Pin

[gbeirn]

going to a size-of-wallet voting scheme is plain MEDIEVAL - sure this has been brought up here before, but how about this:

Thanks everyone for the great ideas and discussion about voting, it's what I was hoping for

I agree with the above statement and that's why I proposed what I did. My concept of voting is only based on the American democratic process. So that's why I proposed how I did.

I am curious that no one commented about the account restrictions based on blockchain height I mentioned: If a vote was proposed and went public on block height of 45,000 an account would have to have existed for 'X' number of blocks before the block containing the vote (i.e, you have to be 18yrs old to vote in the U.S.), we could take it a bit further and say that that account would also have to NXT in it for a certain amount of blocks before the vote as well (like the 1440 blocks before you can forge). This could surely cut down on the amount of gaming no?

This makes a lot of sense on so many levels. Not only would it prevent gaming the system from large holders, but it prevents people from buying large sums of NXT (for a short period) to try to manipulate the vote.  The more I think about this approach, the more it grows on me.

This is a great idea.  A forging account with public key will be able to get one vote.  Or as mentioned above, only an account that existed at a particular block height would get to vote on the particular topic.  That way you could go back in time and put up a vote for a smaller group of founders, etc...

+1 I like the idea. But if you go back to the first block, there aren't anyone else to vote except BCNext or anyone else ?

As long as it is 1 NXT, 1 vote, then it makes sense. Anything else opens up to Sybil attacks and tyranny of majority. Certainly using NXT in accts at the moment vote is started is a good idea.

I am confused why this is such a hot topic. America uses republic system, not democratic for most things. Representatives are elected and they then make all the decisions. Since this system is pretty much maps to $tbd USD = 1 vote, to elect the representatives/senators/etc, not sure what the big controversy over 1NXT==1vote is

Has anybody noticed that it is nearly impossible to get 10 founders to agree on any single thing? They are 10 different people. Also, combined, they own a minority, so if they somehow manage to join forces to try to confiscate everyone elses NXT (that is what everybody is concerned with right?) they will fail and probably cause a reverse.

Tyranny of the masses is far more likely. What happened in America, the more numerous poor people vote to transfer wealth from the wealthy to themselves. America goes from biggest creditor nation to biggest debtor nation in the world

In any case, the Voting System is a non-binding mechanism to gauge public opinion. Certainly for any NXT threatening issue, there should be no doubts that all NXT holders big and small will make a correct decision, on balance, eg. avoiding hard forks.

Also, my experience is that the founders are by and large decent and intelligent people and why people think they would intentionally do damaging things, confuses me

James

Well my understanding of the voting system is similar to the polls here in bitcointalk, or any other place. Not that any action will necessarily take place but if action is required we can get a majority idea of how the community would like to proceed.  

I guess my stumbling block in understanding is why someones vote who has more wealth would have more weight then someone who has less. In my mind a true democratic system would be each person has an equal say regardless how much you own (NXT in this case).

Wealth in this case may mean fiat since some of us spend fiat to acquire NXT but wealth could also just mean the NXT themselves and what they allow you to do: purchase aliases, send messages, etc.

I thought by using NXT in accounts in reference to block height of vote proposal would limit Sybil attacks. Granted we can't eliminate them entirely but it least if will cost the malicious party to set up multiple voting accounts and spread NXT around even more.

My two NXTs....

[ImmortAlex]

(sorry - but I think that "polls" in forums are about the most stupid thing I've ever come across - I don't have polls in CIYAM Open for this exact reason)

Agreed.
IMHO, forum polls is useless and meaningless.
Note: this opinion is for polls only, not for Voting System.

[opticalcarrier]

Simpler seems better to me. The more requirements, the more complicated, the longer to get it working right.

I think there will be (is?) a bidding process for space in the forged block. As long as the bidding is based on NXT per byte used in the blockchain, then it won't matter if it is for transaction, AM, AS, etc. Mission critical items will need to bid higher, best efforts can use minimum fees, etc. I think it makes sense for the client to dynamically change the fee paid if something doesn't get into the blockchain. The core protocol should use some sort of universal metric to determine what goes in or out, NXT/byte seems logical.

There might be some EBS (emergency broadcast system) payloads that always make it, but not sure how to make it spamproof.

I'm all for simplicity.

Regarding transaction size: yes there will be a bidding war, and the forging node has an incentive to consider transaction size when deciding which transactions to include and which to exclude. It's aim is to push a block which includes whatever collection of transactions maximises its own fees.

But it has no incentives to take TTL into account, and so unless the network imposes some hard rule with arbitrarily-chosen fees (e.g. 0.0001 nxt per day) why would a client not always opt for the maximum TTL?

IMO the protocol should be modified to allow the network to enforce a transactionFee/transactionBiteSize ratio, rather than let a forging node use whichever transactions maximize its fees.

I say forget about TTL.  Let it sit till checkpoint, like NXT transfers do.  Just enforce a transactionFee/transactionBiteSize ratio.
Unfortunately I believe this is much harder said than done.

Edit:  may be easiest to enforce a 1-size-fits-all strategy to prevent spamming/bloat:  Determine the smallest-transaction-type-size-in-bytes and set its fee to X, then find out the total transaction size of the largest possible AM and find the byte size multiplier between the 2, and multiply the fee of the smallest-transaction-type-size-in-bytes by that multiplier to determine the fee for any sized AM

[PeercoinEnthusiast]

I wasn't referring to creating a poll in this cesspool called Bitcointalk, I meant on the community forums.  Yes, people will game the system... I'm suggesting simply checking the pulse, the same way we've handled other community actions in the past.

I think you need to carefully think how to do this as such things are very easily gamed.

Not everyone has all day to ready through endless posts, I was simply requesting creating a poll to summarize what has been suggested... nothing more. No decisions made based on a poll. Anyway, that's my 2 cents... it's decentralized, do as you please.

[CIYAM]

IMHO, forum polls is useless and meaningless.
Note: this opinion is for polls only, not for Voting System.

Agreed - I am not against the Voting System idea but I am strongly against any "forum polls" (especially Bitcointalk ones).

[ImmortAlex]

Polls, polls, polls...
Is it true that hash didn't get a nessie for their work on logo?!

Hash was not the maker, it was a friend of him and he received 1000 NXT for it, but I think there is concensus in the community to give him 4000 NXT more.

Thanks for clarification. Anyway, I sent 5000 just now. Like perfect design work a lot!

[CIYAM]

Not everyone has all day to ready through endless posts, I was simply requesting creating a poll to summarize what has been suggested... nothing more. No decisions made based on a poll. Anyway, that's my 2 cents... it's decentralized, do as you please.

I understand the frustration of reading through this enormous topic - we just need to work out a way to do things that isn't easily screwed by gamers.

Your input is appreciated (and yes - "the revolution will not be centralised")!

[msin]

going to a size-of-wallet voting scheme is plain MEDIEVAL - sure this has been brought up here before, but how about this:

Thanks everyone for the great ideas and discussion about voting, it's what I was hoping for

I agree with the above statement and that's why I proposed what I did. My concept of voting is only based on the American democratic process. So that's why I proposed how I did.

I am curious that no one commented about the account restrictions based on blockchain height I mentioned: If a vote was proposed and went public on block height of 45,000 an account would have to have existed for 'X' number of blocks before the block containing the vote (i.e, you have to be 18yrs old to vote in the U.S.), we could take it a bit further and say that that account would also have to NXT in it for a certain amount of blocks before the vote as well (like the 1440 blocks before you can forge). This could surely cut down on the amount of gaming no?

This makes a lot of sense on so many levels. Not only would it prevent gaming the system from large holders, but it prevents people from buying large sums of NXT (for a short period) to try to manipulate the vote.  The more I think about this approach, the more it grows on me.

This is a great idea.  A forging account with public key will be able to get one vote.  Or as mentioned above, only an account that existed at a particular block height would get to vote on the particular topic.  That way you could go back in time and put up a vote for a smaller group of founders, etc...

+1 I like the idea. But if you go back to the first block, there aren't anyone else to vote except BCNext or anyone else ?

Well haha of course if you go back to the Genesis block But it would an arbitrary number. Need to be an account with a public key for at least the previous 10,000 blocks when the vote block come up. Or whatever.....

One idea is that when a voting issue is raised and up for public debate we can mark the block at that time and only accounts "older" than that mark can vote on that issue.

Furthermore, I think setting up a vote should cost a certain amount of NXT to avoid spamming.

Yes, exactly, that would be a default (topic submitted at current block height), but the person could also choose at which block they want to issue the vote topic.  I think the vote topic should cost at least 1 Nxt of course.  Really think we are on to something here, seems like a fair system.  Perhaps we could put it up for vote in the Nxtcrypto forum then forward result to JLP for implementation, or whomever is responsible.

[ImmortAlex]

I was simply requesting creating a poll to summarize what has been suggested... nothing more.

Perfect solution for Voting app:
- you run it
- it downloads latest blockchain
- it extracts newest votings
- it shows you that votings
- you do some left-mouse-button clicks on checkboxes
- you click "submit"
- you go to sleep (as C-f-B recommends)

Democracy on the march!

[msin]

I was simply requesting creating a poll to summarize what has been suggested... nothing more.

Perfect solution for Voting app:
- you run it
- it downloads latest blockchain
- it extracts newest votings
- it shows you that votings
- you do some left-mouse-button clicks on checkboxes
- you click "submit"
- you go to sleep (as C-f-B recommends)

Democracy on the march!

+1, except CFB "sleep" is code for "testing major bugs".  Seriously though, really like the idea of a voting section in client, based on your public key block height and voting topic block height, click boxes that are up for vote and done.

[jl777]

I was simply requesting creating a poll to summarize what has been suggested... nothing more.

Perfect solution for Voting app:
- you run it
- it downloads latest blockchain
- it extracts newest votings
- it shows you that votings
- you do some left-mouse-button clicks on checkboxes
- you click "submit"
- you go to sleep (as C-f-B recommends)

Democracy on the march!

+1, except CFB "sleep" is code for "testing major bugs".  Seriously though, really like the idea of a voting section in client, based on your public key block height and voting topic block height, click boxes that are up for vote and done.

+1

[gbeirn]

I was simply requesting creating a poll to summarize what has been suggested... nothing more.

Perfect solution for Voting app:
- you run it
- it downloads latest blockchain
- it extracts newest votings
- it shows you that votings
- you do some left-mouse-button clicks on checkboxes
- you click "submit"
- you go to sleep (as C-f-B recommends)

Democracy on the march!

+1, except CFB "sleep" is code for "testing major bugs".  Seriously though, really like the idea of a voting section in client, based on your public key block height and voting topic block height, click boxes that are up for vote and done.

Perfect!

[rb2]

bit777 asks about Nxt Daemon https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=183798.new#new

Ah thank you ! I was asking for help from devs but no one is moving.
If bit777 add Nxt this will be the biggest promotion ever.

With what exactly can we help? what do you need?
Pin

Just helping him understand how the client work and how to implement it to his casino (considering the high traffic/transactions).
The Nxt client is very different from BitcoinQt.

This is a main problem we see also appear with exchange, people dont know how to implement it in they environment. Can we have somebody other than core DEVs JL and CfB to help people with this?

who is willing to do this?

Pin

repost:


This is a main problem we see also appear with exchange, people don’t know how to implement it in they environment.

Can we have somebody other than core DEVs JL and CfB to help people with this?

Do we have someone other than core devs that could explain how NXT works and help them setup business; this is also in the interest of NXT

This should be documented somewhere, and be made the reference people are pointed to.

[timmyd]

I am about to add NXT to http://cryptokopen.eu
any donations are very welcome!

10772787204751253513

Nice one pal ill check this out :-D