Meanwhile in Ukraine... Revolution.

[bryant.coleman]

"harmlessly trying to dump their excess male population". You meant after China harmlessly destroyed the natural male/female ratio with their one child policy?

One child policy was necessary, as China doesn't have the natural resources to sustain its billion plus population.

The male-female imbalance is worrying, but it is much less catastrophic than having a population of 2 billion.

[AnonyMint]

One child policy was necessary, as China doesn't have the natural resources to sustain its billion plus population.

Malthusian BS nonsense. The carrying capacity of the earth is 100s of billions. The problem is technology is held back by governments, cartels, and the resistance of the people who can't upgrade their knowledge fast enough.

China in particular was isolationist and did not upgrade its agriculture and other technologies fast enough and substituted technological solution with 57 million genocide in the Cultural Revolution.

The male-female imbalance is worrying, but it is much less catastrophic than having a population of 2 billion.

Good to see you fallen for CNN's Ted Turner's Georgia Guidestones propaganda.

[Wilikon]

"harmlessly trying to dump their excess male population". You meant after China harmlessly destroyed the natural male/female ratio with their one child policy?

One child policy was necessary, as China doesn't have the natural resources to sustain its billion plus population.

The male-female imbalance is worrying, but it is much less catastrophic than having a population of 2 billion.

Mankind, reduced to a cold, clinical Microsoft Excel file, + or - 2 billions.

[stompix]

One child policy was necessary, as China doesn't have the natural resources to sustain its billion plus population.

Malthusian BS nonsense. The carrying capacity of the earth is 100s of billions. The problem is technology is held back by governments, cartels, and the resistance of the people who can't upgrade their knowledge fast enough.

China in particular was isolationist and did not upgrade its agriculture and other technologies fast enough and substituted technological solution with 57 million genocide in the Cultural Revolution.

The male-female imbalance is worrying, but it is much less catastrophic than having a population of 2 billion.

Good to see you fallen for CNN's Ted Turner's Georgia Guidestones propaganda.

It's when they tried to improve their agricultural capacities that they ended up killing those peoples.
And about the 100 billions ,are you sure about that?
Some numbers to back it up?
And those 100 billions don't just require extra food , also extra living space, extra roads , parks, hospitals , etc.
I don't see it possible.

[Sindelar1938]

It is amazing how little western press this has got
Ukraine is a totalitarian basket case
Hope the people prevail in the end

[bryant.coleman]

Malthusian BS nonsense. The carrying capacity of the earth is 100s of billions. The problem is technology is held back by governments, cartels, and the resistance of the people who can't upgrade their knowledge fast enough.

If you really think that the world can sustain a population of 300 or 400 billion people, then even god might not be able to help you. 

[Wilikon]

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/12/12/ukraines-protests-not-yet-a-revolution/

In the three weeks since Ukraine formally suspended talks aimed at signing an Association Agreement with the European Union, two important facts have become clear.

First, it is now apparent that Ukraine’s president, Viktor Yanukovich, had no effective strategy to resist intense pressure against the EU deal from Moscow. The Kremlin promised big cash loans, a gas discount and debt forgiveness, while explicitly threatening to block Ukraine’s access to the Russian market and implicitly threatening to stoke separatism in regions of the country.

Second, as street demonstrations gain momentum in Kiev and other cities, it has become clear that a strong, diverse and increasingly vocal plurality of Ukrainians will not accept their country’s continued isolation from the West. The authorities have confronted street protestors with shocking violence, and have offered no significant political concessions. Yet the prospect of real reform driven by the EU association has now become a key symbol for Ukraine’s national identity.

Though these two basic dynamics may appear to confirm the cliche of Ukraine “caught between East and West,” Ukrainians themselves do not see it this way.

Yanukovich, despite the intensity of Russian pressure, did not walk away from the EU table just to please Moscow. On the contrary, his relations with Russian President Vladimir Putin are devoid of any foundation of trust or even mutual respect, Yanukovich can be all but certain that the Kremlin will throw considerable resources behind a challenger in the 2015 Ukrainian presidential elections, if not sooner.

Moreover, Ukraine is not on track to join Russia’s alternative to the EU, the Eurasian Economic Union. That would at best fuel a brief spurt of economic growth at the cost of longer term stagnation.

[Wilikon]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/juliapugachevsky/there-are-now-french-revolution-style-barricades-in-ukraine

[stompix]

Looking at the pictures above I think this is going to turn ugly.
All the eastern countries have had some recent civil conflicts that ended up with either a revolution or with something close to it , and the more you go deeper into the URSS , the closer they were time scale.
I guess it's finally Ukraine time to change it's leaders by force.
Next , Belarus?

[bryant.coleman]

Yanukovych has asked for 20 Billion Euros in aid for Ukraine joining the EU. If the EU grants him an amount near that, then Yanukovych will be No.1 on Putin's hit-list. 

[Hideyoshi]

It is good that nature has given them many resources to build defenses. Also good to hear they have possible gas exports, instead of their exports being only bread and Chernobyl radiation. I hope they succeed in their revolution. Since Yanukovich is friend of Russia, does that mean that Yanukovich is more socialist communist, and opposition party and protesters are more independent capitalists? Many people in old Soviet countries were thoroughly brainwashed into communism, so it would be terrible if they had revolution that turned them into something like Cuba. Pro communist people are easy to control when you promise them government handouts paid for by rich people and business taxes.

[bryant.coleman]

Since Yanukovich is friend of Russia, does that mean that Yanukovich is more socialist communist, and opposition party and protesters are more independent capitalists?

It is the other way around. Yanukovych is supported by the oligarchs and metal giants. Communism is no longer relevant in the ex-USSR. People have realized that it is a failed ideology.

[Hideyoshi]

Since Yanukovich is friend of Russia, does that mean that Yanukovich is more socialist communist, and opposition party and protesters are more independent capitalists?

It is the other way around. Yanukovych is supported by the oligarchs and metal giants. Communism is no longer relevant in the ex-USSR. People have realized that it is a failed ideology.

So is the fight between crony corporatist and small business free economy types? Or is it simply fight between corrupt thief and people who do not like corrupt thieves? I do not know what the Ukrainian people are like, but i do not like Yanukovich for being such authoritarian.

Also, what is bitcoin situation like in Ukraine? Are there exchanges? Can it be used at all?

[bryant.coleman]

So is the fight between crony corporatist and small business free economy types? Or is it simply fight between corrupt thief and people who do not like corrupt thieves? I do not know what the Ukrainian people are like, but i do not like Yanukovich for being such authoritarian.

The fight is actually between different bands of thieves, on who should get the bigger share of the loot.

Also, what is bitcoin situation like in Ukraine? Are there exchanges? Can it be used at all?

I don't think there are any. Since BTC-E is based in Russia, most of the Ukrainians use that one. Payments from / to Ukrainian banks are available in BTC-E.

[Wilikon]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/world/europe/struggle-in-ukraine-reflects-a-larger-battle-between-europe-and-russia.html?_r=1&



KIEV, Ukraine — Two large, swirling crowds faced off in Kiev on Saturday in public squares less than a quarter of a mile apart. One was the huge, antigovernment, pro-Europe demonstration that has electrified this capital since late last month. The other was composed of tens of thousands who poured into central Kiev for a counter rally in support of the embattled president, Viktor F. Yanukovich.

By evening, the pro-government crowd had disappeared for the night, leaving the police guarding a virtually empty plaza. The antigovernment protesters in Independence Square, by comparison, were revving up, waiting with excitement for a performance by one of Ukraine’s most popular rock bands ahead of another night out in the cold.

The contrast was one of several signals that momentum in the uprising over the president’s refusal to sign political and trade accords with the European Union might be shifting.

After weeks in which Mr. Yanukovich — and Russian opponents of the accords — appeared to have the upper hand, there were signs that the president was no longer so sure of himself.

Mr. Yanukovich, who had initially been dismissive of the protest movement and even flew off for a trip to China, met with opposition leaders on Friday and announced Saturday that he had indefinitely suspended two officials, the Kiev city manager, Oleksandr Popov, and deputy national security chief, Volodomyr Sivkovych, over allegations about their role in a violent crackdown by the police on protesters on Nov. 30.

A statement on the president’s website said they were suspected of violating citizens’ constitutional rights. It was unclear that either of the men had ordered the use of force, but the need to show officials’ being held accountable underscored the increasing pressure that Mr. Yanukovich is facing to make concessions.

“Everything that has happened in the last 24 to 48 hours is breaking in favor of a resolution toward the Maidan,” said Adrian Karatnycky, an expert on Ukraine with the Atlantic Council of the United States, referring to Independence Square.

Particularly significant, said Mr. Karatnycky, who was in Kiev last week, was the shifting support among oligarchs who control several factions in Parliament — a move he said was probably encouraged by the continued strength of the crowds on the street.

On Friday, Rinat Akhmetov, Ukraine’s wealthiest man and a close ally of Mr. Yanukovich, issued a statement in support of the antigovernment protest movement.

[Hideyoshi]

Since both sides are thieves, if their options are only government thieves that wish to join EU, and government thieves that wish to join Russia, I wish they could pick the option of just no government thieves at all. But from what I hear they have many people on government pensions, and much government debt, which is reason Ukraine is broke. So that may not be an option for them. It is sad, because Ukraine always seems to be stuck between two fighting side, Russia and Europe. It was same during World War 2, when they were stuck between Soviet Union and Germany.

Thank you for these new updates.

[bryant.coleman]

It is sad, because Ukraine always seems to be stuck between two fighting side, Russia and Europe. It was same during World War 2, when they were stuck between Soviet Union and Germany.

In an economical prospective, it might be better for Ukraine if it joins the Russian-led customs union.

That's the way the USSR worked. Russia and Ukraine together accounted for more than 90% of the total population (and 99% of the productive population). Russia had infinite natural resources, which were shipped to the factories in Ukraine, where the Ukrainian manpower produced world class engineering products. At that time, both Russia and Ukraine were inter-dependent on each other. Russia bartered its oil, gas, timber and mineral ores for food grains and meat produced in Ukraine, Belarus and Moldovia. Now Russia is a net importer of food, while Ukraine is heavily dependent on oil and gas imports.

The reason why the USSR disintegrated is because the unproductive population (mostly Muslims in Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan) increased much faster as compared to the productive population. However, if Russia and Ukraine creates an union state which excludes parasites such as Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, the people on both sides would benefit from it. 

If Ukraine joins the EU, the government will be forced to take up austerity measures. This can include reducing the subsidies and pensions. It will adversely affect the lower middle class and the poor. However, the elite and the urban middle class will gain from new business opportunities. Also, the Ukrainian factories will be forced to adhere to the European standards, which would require new investment worth some $200 billion. No one is having that much money there. So there is a possibility that if Ukraine joins the EU, the Arabs and the Chinese will buy up 90% of Ukraine.

[stompix]

It is sad, because Ukraine always seems to be stuck between two fighting side, Russia and Europe. It was same during World War 2, when they were stuck between Soviet Union and Germany.

In an economical prospective, it might be better for Ukraine if it joins the Russian-led customs union.

That's the way the USSR worked. Russia and Ukraine together accounted for more than 90% of the total population (and 99% of the productive population). Russia had infinite natural resources, which were shipped to the factories in Ukraine, where the Ukrainian manpower produced world class engineering products. At that time, both Russia and Ukraine were inter-dependent on each other. Russia bartered its oil, gas, timber and mineral ores for food grains and meat produced in Ukraine, Belarus and Moldovia. Now Russia is a net importer of food, while Ukraine is heavily dependent on oil and gas imports.

The reason why the USSR disintegrated is because the unproductive population (mostly Muslims in Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan) increased much faster as compared to the productive population. However, if Russia and Ukraine creates an union state which excludes parasites such as Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, the people on both sides would benefit from it. 

If Ukraine joins the EU, the government will be forced to take up austerity measures. This can include reducing the subsidies and pensions. It will adversely affect the lower middle class and the poor. However, the elite and the urban middle class will gain from new business opportunities. Also, the Ukrainian factories will be forced to adhere to the European standards, which would require new investment worth some $200 billion. No one is having that much money there. So there is a possibility that if Ukraine joins the EU, the Arabs and the Chinese will buy up 90% of Ukraine.

Some of your facts are wrong.

Republic   Population of Republic (000s) 1979   1989    % urban 1979   Titular nationality (1989)   Russian (1989)
Soviet Union   262,436   286,717   67   -   51.4
Russian SFSR   137,551   147,386   74   81.3   81.3
Ukrainian SSR   49,755   51,704   68   72.7   22.1

More like 60% of the population.
The Baltic countries were heavenly industrialized compared to Russia in %.
Their GDP was way higher than soviet Russia , in some cases more than 40%.

Also, Russia is one of the biggest wheat exporters in the world , with double the amount of Ukraine.

[bryant.coleman]

Some of your facts are wrong.

Republic   Population of Republic (000s) 1979   1989    % urban 1979   Titular nationality (1989)   Russian (1989)
Soviet Union   262,436   286,717   67   -   51.4
Russian SFSR   137,551   147,386   74   81.3   81.3
Ukrainian SSR   49,755   51,704   68   72.7   22.1

More like 60% of the population.
The Baltic countries were heavenly industrialized compared to Russia in %.
Their GDP was way higher than soviet Russia , in some cases more than 40%.

Also, Russia is one of the biggest wheat exporters in the world , with double the amount of Ukraine.

Hmm... so the parasite population was higher. No wonder that the USSR collapsed.

Russia, Ukraine, Moldovia and Belarus together accounted for 75% of the population. The Baltics were 3%. Kazakhstan (6%) can't be regarded as a parasite, as two-third of the population (back then) was either Russian or German.

The remaining are parasites, includes the Caucasus nations (5.5%) and Central Asia (11.5%). That is 17% or one-sixth of the population.

Ukraine produced much more grain and wheat per capita as compared to any other republic in the USSR. However, the agricultural sector collapsed there after the disintegration of the USSR, and that is why we are seeing lower wheat exports from Ukraine.

[stompix]

Ukraine can compete with Russian in the size of wheat production.
The Russians have almost 80 000 km2 of land dedicated to wheat production , that's 1/7 of the size of Ukraine.

Amazing fact I discovered while browsing around , Kazakhstan is top 8 in wheat exports. . Speaking of laziness.