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Author Topic: mtgox.com has blocked my account with 45 000 USD in it!  (Read 105425 times)
rebuilder
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February 23, 2011, 08:34:36 PM
 #61

Huh
You were defending a voluntary court system in this very topic... if that's not an ethical base (voluntary is ok, coercive is not) than what is it?

It is pragmatic. I don't expect to be able to apply coercive measures against anyone when I can not identify them. I do not hold enough sway in this community to declare anyone pariah. If, then, I am to have any recourse against someone in a dispute, it seems best to me to only conduct business with people who will voluntarily declare their willingness to follow certain rules, and to conduct my business in such a way that it can be proven whether the rules have been followed or not.

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February 23, 2011, 08:40:11 PM
 #62

Like you or not, everybody has the right to sell widget on the internet. But nobody has the right to steal. This is basic ethics.
That's true 95% of the time, unfortunately we are not living in a black-or-white world. There may be gray area between selling and stealing -- I am not talking about this instance per se.
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February 23, 2011, 09:01:06 PM
 #63

MtGox has no formal terms of service, so they are acting on the traditional basis that "possession is nine tenths of the law". I think that's a good thing. At this point in the evolution of services such as MtGox, they need to be able to act rapidly and somewhat arbitrarily, in order to establish what will become policies in the future.

There is a school of thought that "There are no rules until they are broken". This was traditionally the way discipline was handled at Phillips Exeter Academy in New Hampshire, and it seemed to work well. By contrast, nearby Phillips Academy Andover had rules for everything and produced alumni such as George Bush (senior and junior).

In time the Bitcoin economy might become more formal, but I think we should encourage pluralistic solutions built around mutually-agreed arbitration systems. This will of course include commercial (paid) arbitrators, but I also like the idea of some kind of "jury" or "council of elders" to give opinions on bitcoin disputes.
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February 23, 2011, 09:03:45 PM
 #64

There is pretty strong evidence that this guy was involved in some theft of BTC.

I'm confused.

All money to mtgox.com was deposited using liberty reserve.

Which currency is being suspected of being stolen ... LRUSDs or BTCs?

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February 23, 2011, 09:28:14 PM
 #65

There is pretty strong evidence that this guy was involved in some theft of BTC.

I'm confused.

All money to mtgox.com was deposited using liberty reserve.

Which currency is being suspected of being stolen ... LRUSDs or BTCs?


BTC , but blocked is my mtgox account with all USD which was loaded with liberty reserve.

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February 23, 2011, 10:04:48 PM
 #66


 
All money to mtgox.com was deposited using liberty reserve.
 
BTC , but blocked is my mtgox account with all USD which was loaded with liberty reserve.

Interesting for sure.
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February 23, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
 #67

There is pretty strong evidence that this guy was involved in some theft of BTC. I'm trying to talk to him to make absolutely certain.

Finally I get reason why my mtgox.com account was blocked.

anyone can get into situation like mine, when someone sends you stolen BTC, How do I know that BTC was stolen or not?

I never said, but I saying now , that I received from that man from IRC only 9000 BTC, in that day when I received BTC rate was about 0.30/BTC, so it's total of ~3000 USD, so it's necessary to block all my money ( all 45 000 USD) ?

I want to forget this situation and save my nerves.
I agree to return that money(3000 USD) to bitcoin member from which was stoled funds, because it's too small amount to waste my and I think mtgox time, or even involve lawyers. I am holding my BTC ( not withdrawing , or exchanging ) to do this, everytime I am ready to send money. I am asking mtgox.com to tell me bitcoin address from witch was stolen money, so I could send it back.


Also I suggest adopt some sort of rules that this not happen to others.
Also as every website , mtgox.com should have at least some "terms of use" in his website, because he operate with real money, he should explain what realy means "volume" and other terms in his page (it's hard to find out what really
stands behind that word, there is nothing like FAQ pages).
Mtgox.com must warn about withdrawing/depositing limits.



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February 23, 2011, 10:42:26 PM
 #68

There is pretty strong evidence that this guy was involved in some theft of BTC. I'm trying to talk to him to make absolutely certain.

Finally I get reason why my mtgox.com account was blocked.

anyone can get into situation like mine, when someone sends you stolen BTC, How do I know that BTC was stolen or not?

I never said, but I saying now , that I received from that man from IRC only 9000 BTC, in that day when I received BTC rate was about 0.30/BTC, so it's total of ~3000 USD, so it's necessary to block all my money ( all 45 000 USD) ?

I want to forget this situation and save my nerves.
I agree to return that money(3000 USD) to bitcoin member from which was stoled funds, because it's too small amount to waste my and I think mtgox time, or even involve lawyers. I am holding my BTC ( not withdrawing , or exchanging ) to do this, everytime I am ready to send money. I am asking mtgox.com to tell me bitcoin address from witch was stolen money, so I could send it back.


Also I suggest adopt some sort of rules that this not happen to others.
Also as every website , mtgox.com should have at least some "terms of use" in his website, because he operate with real money, he should explain what realy means "volume" and other terms in his page (it's hard to find out what really
stands behind that word, there is nothing like FAQ pages).
Mtgox.com must warn about withdrawing/depositing limits.



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February 23, 2011, 10:48:13 PM
 #69

anyone can get into situation like mine, when someone sends you stolen BTC, How do I know that BTC was stolen or not?

I'm somewhat concerned about this.

My (rather uninformed) impression is that if an innocent party receives property that turns out to be stolen, they have to return it, regardless of how many hands it has passed through.

The situation with money seems different, because money is fungible.  If someone receives money from many sources over time, one of which is from theft, and pays money to many others over time, who is to say who ended up with the stolen money?

Does it matter if the serial numbers of the stolen bills are known?  Suppose a thief steals some $100 bills, goes to a bank and exchanges them for $20 bills, and then vanishes.  Does the bank have to return those $100 bills because they are the stolen ones?  If the bank gives them to me as a withdrawal, do I have to return them?

It will be dangerous to accept bitcoins as payment if they become subject to "stolen property" treatment.  A large number of bitcoins may eventually have something shady in their past.  It's not a question for the bitcoin community to decide -- it's a legal question.
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February 23, 2011, 10:58:04 PM
 #70

Does this mean that bitcoins are now subject to chargebacks just like paypal and credit cards? If I receive bitcoins from a stranger and it turns out some are stolen, I try to sell on mtgox and they are then frozen. Now it seems like a bad idea to trade bitcoins with strangers. Previously it was considered safe to trade if you were on the receiving end of bitcoins.
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February 23, 2011, 11:07:38 PM
 #71

I'm still rather hesitant to trust Baron's word. I seriously doubt that mtgox would put $45,000 USD on hold because of a small number of potentially stolen Bitcoins were sent to that same account.
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February 23, 2011, 11:11:03 PM
 #72

+1

Apparently, there was a big scammer stealing 45,000 if not more coins months ago.

This should be properly investigated before returning the funds to this person.

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February 23, 2011, 11:12:56 PM
 #73

Quote
Does this mean that bitcoins are now subject to chargebacks just like paypal and credit cards? If I receive bitcoins from a stranger and it turns out some are stolen, I try to sell on mtgox and they are then frozen. Now it seems like a bad idea to trade bitcoins with strangers. Previously it was considered safe to trade if you were on the receiving end of bitcoins.
It would be ridiculous to follow stolen money through the chain tens or even hundreds of transactions and then require an innocent person to pay up upon withdraw (exchanging out).

Now, according to mtgox this guy was most likely involved in theft directly. That's a big difference from receiving stolen money (unknowingly). It's the difference between guilty and innocent as far as I'm concerned. Now if mtgox infact decides to require innocent people to pay if they receive stolen money, then that doesn't mean you have to be subject to those rules. Everyone is free to launch their own exchange site, with all the risks that comes with that.

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February 24, 2011, 03:34:54 AM
 #74


Money needs to be fungible to be widely accepted ... if some BTC is deemed to be "cleaner" than others then it is no longer fungible.

Of course, people shouldn't scam or steal or money-launder or sell slaves or whatever ... but it is not the job of the money to decide who is right and wrong, it is just an accounting token for facilitating trade and commerce, it is not legislature, police, judge and jury.

We need a blind signature layer so that BTC can be fungible and do a better job of being money. (Some digital sheriffs or bodyguards wouldn't go astray in this wild west either it seems ... or even a posse or two.)

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February 24, 2011, 03:58:26 AM
 #75


Money needs to be fungible to be widely accepted ... if some BTC is deemed to be "cleaner" than others then it is no longer fungible.

Of course, people shouldn't scam or steal or money-launder or sell slaves or whatever ... but it is not the job of the money to decide who is right and wrong, it is just an accounting token for facilitating trade and commerce, it is not legislature, police, judge and jury.

We need a blind signature layer so that BTC can be fungible and do a better job of being money. (Some digital sheriffs or bodyguards wouldn't go astray in this wild west either it seems ... or even a posse or two.)

Bitcoin is acting as money, it is simply that one property of bitcoin is that all transactions are public, there is a record. This is what makes it so difficult to double spend (and other bad things)with bitcoins, it is what makes it a p2p currency.

Bitcoin is so new there is nothing like it, it has some of the same properties of fiat money(cash), gold, and digital money(in real bank accounts) all at the same time. This means that bitcoins can be traced if they are not laundered.

Think of it in terms of bank accounts. Money was transfered from a number of bank accounts to one in a scam. The bank has those records(in our case the block is the bank, and the record of the transaction is in it). The person with those funds has now transfered them to an account owned by MTGOX, who is a banker. He can see these records, and decides to freeze all the related funds to investigate.

We don't have the final conclusion,decision,result. MTGOX is still investigating, and when he is done I am sure he will make a statement with plenty of details.

Because the exchanges are really the only real exit from bitcoins (and lets be honest here, scammers are after cash not bitcoins) unless you consider OTC, but I don't think anyone in #bitcoin-otc would touch dirty bitcoins, especially with someone who has no or little reputation, which a scammer would.

This puts the exchange operators in a powerful possition, they become the ones who CAN do something about stopping scammers, while most of us can do nothing. They are not obliged to act, but we can see here that MTGOX thinks this is worthwhile. If he thinks it worthwhile I would think it must be. He has my trust, and the trust of many here.

This is how we, as a community, as an economy can protect ourselves from scammers and cheaters. It is non-violent, such as boycotting, confiscation of assets that have been entrusted to society members(remember if you give someone possesion of something, you give them power over it). It is also efficient. Much more so than a court.

You coud set up an exchange, and guarantee that no such thing would ever happen on that exchange, that you don't care about the history of any bitcoins and would not stop anyone trading. But then all the scammers would flock to this exchange. And all the good users would know this, and not use it. So it would become an exchange for scammers and no one else. And they would be kept away from the rest of the bitcoin economy.

I think this is good news for bitcoin, it is showing that scammers (twice now) won't be able to get away with their crimes. That the chance of them succeeding is getting lower all the time, and the work they must do to scam is getting harder all the time. This will only make the bitcoin economy stronger and more trustworthy.

I'm looking forward to MTGOX's story.


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February 24, 2011, 04:39:27 AM
 #76

Because the exchanges are really the only real exit from bitcoins (and lets be honest here, scammers are after cash not bitcoins) unless you consider OTC, but I don't think anyone in #bitcoin-otc would touch dirty bitcoins, especially with someone who has no or little reputation, which a scammer would.

I previously wouldn't have had any problem trading on #bitcoin-otc with a stranger for a large number of bitcoins if I was the receiver of the coins as I was under the impression that receiver of bitcoins was safe. I'm more hesitant to do it now that I know there can be issues selling these coins if I don't know the origin which is why I raised the question.
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February 24, 2011, 04:45:40 AM
 #77

Because the exchanges are really the only real exit from bitcoins (and lets be honest here, scammers are after cash not bitcoins) unless you consider OTC, but I don't think anyone in #bitcoin-otc would touch dirty bitcoins, especially with someone who has no or little reputation, which a scammer would.

I previously wouldn't have had any problem trading on #bitcoin-otc with a stranger for a large number of bitcoins if I was the receiver of the coins as I was under the impression that receiver of bitcoins was safe. I'm more hesitant to do it now that I know there can be issues selling these coins if I don't know the origin which is why I raised the question.

Well, before you accept the payment you can check whether the coins are tainted. At the moment this must be done manually but I think a service will popup that covers this soon enough. It's the same in real life accepting stolen goods.

But it really is only a danger to you if you have no reputation. If you're a new user, and you're trying to sell tainted bitcoins, well there is a good chance that you are the scammer who stole them in the first place.

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February 24, 2011, 04:53:05 AM
 #78

Any market that makes a habit of taking any coins ever involved in wrongdoing is not going to survive imo. However, I don't think that is mtgox policy or practice. This particular situation appears to be: thief himself, with his stolen coins, for a large amount, and the site owner probably knows some victims to boot.

Extrapolating what is probably a good investigation and decision in this one case to the general rule of "Take any possibly tainted coins" is ridiculous.

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February 24, 2011, 04:56:27 AM
 #79

+1

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February 24, 2011, 05:03:46 AM
 #80

I previously wouldn't have had any problem trading on #bitcoin-otc with a stranger for a large number of bitcoins if I was the receiver of the coins as I was under the impression that receiver of bitcoins was safe. I'm more hesitant to do it now that I know there can be issues selling these coins if I don't know the origin which is why I raised the question.

Only people without any trust have a chance of being targeted in a scam investigation. The transaction history quickly becomes ambiguous, and your story will be believable. Bitcoin isn't so bad at anonymity when the investigators can't force people to give them truthful information.

You can help investigations by "knowing your customer". Gather IP addresses, account numbers, etc. for every transaction.

Well, before you accept the payment you can check whether the coins are tainted. At the moment this must be done manually but I think a service will popup that covers this soon enough. It's the same in real life accepting stolen goods.

I doubt any service will become popular. If it does, attackers will send tainted bitcoins to random forum users to undermine the system.

Coins spread fast, even if the attacker is not trying to hide. If you go 5 levels deep, you might have 1,000+ addresses that are tainted.

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