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Author Topic: mtgox.com has blocked my account with 45 000 USD in it!  (Read 105388 times)
Drifter
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March 04, 2011, 01:35:41 PM
 #701

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Anyways, I do not think mt gox is freezing the funds just to obey the law. Because they are already breaking the law by not collecting and verifying names and addresses of every customer.


My guess is that Mt. Gox only transfers up to $1,000 a day, to stay under the limit in which you are considered a Money Services Business. If you transfer more than 1,000 per day to a single individual, you must register but until then, no  registration is necessary and KYC rules do not apply(as far as my understanding goes)

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=158384,00.html

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ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 04, 2011, 03:09:24 PM
 #702

I not going to discuss any more, because it's pointless.

I will post overview and what action I am gonna to take very soon.

(...)

ShadowOfHarbringer: you fucking idiot or you are kid. no one force you to read this thread, You posting your stupid posts for fun only. I am not nigerian, nigerians selling black money to stupid peoples.  So go away and stop flooding this thread.


OK, so.

1) Go to court/police.
2) STFU
3) GTFO

And don't forget to post scans of the papers you send/receive from/to court/police.
Because there is no other way I am gonna believe a word of what you are saying...

EDIT:
Actually, that is not enough. I need to see mtgox saying here that he was called to court.
Otherwise, everything you say is worth less than donkey shit to me.

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March 04, 2011, 06:40:19 PM
 #703

Sorry the ShadowofHarbringer did it again >  http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4065.msg59596#msg59596



So in the great words of a drunken pilot: "Hello boys, I'm Back"

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My guess is that Mt. Gox only transfers up to $1,000 a day, to stay under the limit in which you are considered a Money Services Business


Ahh... sort of, it depends... but with the "New Health Care" he needs to send those 1099's for every $600.00   He is the MiddleGuy, that is a hard place to be (I feel for him in that respect) and keep each side happy. 

Quote
Is a law really a law if you can see into the future and know it will be declared unconstitutional in 10, 20, 100 years?

Great Point, but how were they changed?  Personally, I would like it to go about "Slyly" to avoid all the hassles. For Example: Rather than cash, how about Itunes Cards for BitCoins.  If and when BitCoin becomes big and then starts to enter the ForEx and Governments fight back, You know who will be on your side:  Apple, they will fight for the system.  And in the U.S. that can be a good friend to have.  Why would Apple fight for you? Because they are making tons of money from it. It is in their best interest. <-- That is how the world works, sadly. Although, sometimes you get some dope that shoots himself in the foot.

Net Worth = 0.10    Hah, "Net" worth Smiley
BitterTea
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March 04, 2011, 06:59:49 PM
 #704

Rather than cash, how about Itunes Cards for BitCoins.

Can you buy groceries with Itunes cards, can I pay my rent with them? No, Itunes cards are worth less to me than USD, I would not use an exchange if they dealt in Itunes cards as a proxy for cash. Also, I believe your logic wrt Apple is flawed. Large corporations (Apple is a great example, since their legal department is so central to their success) have a vested interest in the status quo. Bitcoin could absolutely destroy the status quo. I think you would see Apple coordinating with U.S. authorities in order to stop the theoretical Itunes->Bitcoin exchange.
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March 04, 2011, 07:14:37 PM
 #705

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Can you buy groceries with Itunes cards, can I pay my rent with them?

If you sell them to me, you can.  I will give you $17 dollars for a $20 card, sell it for $19, consider the left over the transaction fee.

You can spend the $17 where ever you want.

BitCoin "could" destroy the status quo, but not if it made Apple Money. You buy Itunes cards from Apple. If a whole lot of people start buying Itunes cards because of BitCoin, BitCoin becomes Apple's little brother.

Net Worth = 0.10    Hah, "Net" worth Smiley
ShadowOfHarbringer
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March 04, 2011, 07:53:21 PM
 #706

Sorry the ShadowofHarbringer did it again >  http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4065.msg59596#msg59596

Nope, i did not.
Read my reply please.

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March 04, 2011, 08:02:39 PM
 #707

Well, I don't know.  You didn't specifically give a name but the implication was definitely there.

I will give you benefit of the doubt and re-instate my own ban on this thread. Until.... you do it again....

Voila... Poofff...  I'm gone.

Net Worth = 0.10    Hah, "Net" worth Smiley
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March 04, 2011, 11:53:22 PM
 #708

You can buy groceries with amazon cards... Cool
Anonymous
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March 04, 2011, 11:56:27 PM
 #709

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Can you buy groceries with Itunes cards, can I pay my rent with them?

If you sell them to me, you can.  I will give you $17 dollars for a $20 card, sell it for $19, consider the left over the transaction fee.

You can spend the $17 where ever you want.

BitCoin "could" destroy the status quo, but not if it made Apple Money. You buy Itunes cards from Apple. If a whole lot of people start buying Itunes cards because of BitCoin, BitCoin becomes Apple's little brother.

1.Buy itunes card with stolen credit card
2.Get paid by the other party
3.Itunes cancels the card
4.$$$profit.

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March 07, 2011, 05:37:39 PM
 #710

I read the whole thread today. I haven't read any following threads. I have to say this:

The courts may be the only ones who can see who was the guy on IRC from whom Baron bought the 9000BTC in exchange for LRUSD (as Baron says - they may have done their talk in private, and the thief may have been the first to do a transfer), decide that he is the thief and give the money back to the guy whose MtGox password was guessed [and to Baron]. To do that, they will have to see the times that the transfers took place. If the transfer from MtGox to Baron's BTC client happened at around the same time as a transfer from Baron's LR account to the thief's LR account (market prices), and the thief is a separate person, that would show that Baron is innocent.

EDIT: Sorry, I should have said "give the money back to Baron, and order Baron to give the 9000BTC back to MtGox".

One thing that can be done here is that Baron can give the details of his LR transaction with the thief, so we can verify it with LR's form, like the other transactions he gave. Proving that the thief is a separate person though is a different business altogether. I don't know if this can be done here.

EDIT: And even if it can be done, it could just be a friend of Baron...

EDIT: And even if it can be proven that Baron has not been conspiring with that guy, the authorities will have to follow a money trail of $3000. Who knows where it went...

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March 07, 2011, 10:30:47 PM
 #711

Isn't there too much focus on just the 9000 BTC? It seems to me the bigger issue is the suspicion that Baron is also the person who stole >$45000 from MtGox by exploiting the site's LR code.

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March 07, 2011, 11:04:55 PM
 #712

Isn't there too much focus on just the 9000 BTC? It seems to me the bigger issue is the suspicion that Baron is also the person who stole >$45000 from MtGox by exploiting the site's LR code.
Sure, but Baron is unable to prove that he sent 3000$ worth of LibertyReserve money to buy 9000 BTC. It's very easy to prove, all he has to do is post transaction batch, date and account numbers and we can go to libertyreserve and automatically validate that the transactions did in fact occured. It screams scammer in my ears.

Now I'm not sure why he would be stupid enough to first steal 45 000$ and then deposit it back, but this isn't anything we can prove/disprove, it's a case mtgox has to deal with. All we know is that such transactions did occour. Also, it wasn't mentioned anywhere how much money was stolen from mtgox as far as I know. It would make more sense if Baron pulled off several libertyreserve scams and then deposited into mtgox while thinking he would be safe by using multiple IPs but getting busted by his lack of knowledge about bitcoin and how his transactions can be traced.

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March 07, 2011, 11:19:04 PM
 #713

Now I'm not sure why he would be stupid enough to first steal 45 000$ and then deposit it back
It seems to me that a possible interpretation of Mt. Gox's post is that the theft of this money itself occurred by an internal exploit reallocating LR within the site to his account, followed by the maximum withdrawal every following day.  But I could be wrong.

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March 07, 2011, 11:48:43 PM
 #714

DayX: Person B finds an exploit in my LR code and manages to send himself a good deal of LR from the site.
As I have said previously we don’t want to be the bitcoin police and this will hopefully not be necessary in the future since we have fixed these security issues that allowed Person B to steal from us and other users in the first place.
It seems to me that a possible interpretation of Mt. Gox's post is that the theft of this money itself occurred by an internal exploit reallocating LR within the site to his account, followed by the maximum withdrawal every following day.  But I could be wrong.
If it were transferred within MtGox, he'd refer to it as USD, as LR is only one of multiple means of deposit/withdrawal and storage, and wouldn't refer to it as theft from MtGox. Also, if it were an internal transfer, Jed would have simply reversed the database entry.

We are left having to assume that baron is in fact person B. baron’s account on mtgox holds less than the sum of theft by person B.
Now I'm not sure why he would be stupid enough to first steal 45 000$ and then deposit it back, but this isn't anything we can prove/disprove, it's a case mtgox has to deal with. All we know is that such transactions did occour. Also, it wasn't mentioned anywhere how much money was stolen from mtgox as far as I know. It would make more sense if Baron pulled off several libertyreserve scams and then deposited into mtgox while thinking he would be safe by using multiple IPs but getting busted by his lack of knowledge about bitcoin and how his transactions can be traced.
As I interpret Jed's statement, the theft of LR from MtGox was greater than the current value of Baron's account which is at least $45000.

I point this out because some may still think freezing $45000 was excessive. I say it's not, assuming there's adequate evidence that the stolen $45000+ LR was redeposited into MtGox.

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March 08, 2011, 05:05:47 AM
 #715

Isn't there too much focus on just the 9000 BTC? It seems to me the bigger issue is the suspicion that Baron is also the person who stole >$45000 from MtGox by exploiting the site's LR code.

I think you got it wrong. Baron gave transaction details of 3 transactions that sent money from LR account U1172929 to LR account U8227430, which I can verify that it belongs to MtGox (it's what the page for depositing funds on MtGox links to). Baron can probably show that LR account U1172929 belongs to him by offering to send a few cents to anyone who asks. The sum of the money sent to MtGox from U1172929 is 74616 USD.

According to what I read on this thread, what Baron is accused of is the stealing of 9000BTC by guessing a MtGox user's password. The evidence is in the Bitcoin block chain because the money was sent directly from MtGox to Baron's Bitcoin addresses (19n8ogD8imviHn9iZSpmUgdZqjTuDxzDwv and 1DVQEpTFjxYpZMVy4Bam9MCxeGEtmMmQCh). This is why Baron is believed to be the thief.

MtGox also accuses Baron of other things, but the evidence for those things is only in MtGox's server logs.

Now, Baron, in his defense, says that the money was offered to him by someone on IRC, in exchange for USD from his LR account. Obviously, the only way to prove this is to see evidence of Baron's LR transaction with the real thief and then to follow the money.

There is still the scenario that MtGox is the scammer in this case, who may be trying to gain a large sum of money, by sacrificing a smaller sum of money.

Also, another way to see if the person on IRC exists is to start asking people on IRC whether or not they have kept logs of their PM conversations at around the days when the 3x3000BTC transactions took place (the thief may have been PMing people, making his offer). A person who has "hacked" into a MtGox account and wants to sell the money may have been careful to make his offer only in private (as this is IRC, as I understand), so nobody can "see" him. Did Baron go to #bitcoin-otc? If so, he must have not followed any #bitcoin-otc "rating systems". Possibly, the thief sent the money first (not his money, anyway) and Baron just felt "obliged" to give something in return.

A protocol analysis of the SSL communications between Baron and MtGox probably won't be any good, because of the "Diffie-Hellman key exchange". A digitally signed such log would prove what Baron did with his money on MtGox, and how much is his. This is analogous to receipts.

Another way to go about this is to search for everyone with whom Baron has traded on MtGox and try to get statements from them. But only MtGox has that information now, in his own files, as Baron is locked out. It may be gone already, if MtGox is the scammer. This is probably the reason Baron wanted to take screen-shots.

I think the main reason that the dispute can't be resolved right here is that there is difficulty in proving that the people who speak are separate people. But then, in RL courts, there is always the problem of false witnesses.

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March 08, 2011, 12:31:10 PM
 #716

Hello all,

For information the fact I took over mtgox also means this issue will now be solved by my company. We are currently running an internal investigation based on all the elements so far, and will take an action as soon as we can.

We cannot disclose details about the investigation itself, however if this goes to trial, I'll try to get the final decision published.

In the meantime there is unfortunately little to discuss. We will however implement additionnal (and optional) features on mtgox to ensure this cannot happen easily again (one of the first features will be the double password: you will be able to set a different password for login and withdraw).


Mark

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March 18, 2011, 10:40:52 AM
 #717

Some updates.

Issue still not resolved.

1.mtgox.com (now owner Mark Karpeles ) refuse to unblock my mtgox.com account for 1 day, to let me take screenshots of my account as evidences, he saying:
"As I said, I cannot unlock an account while keeping it "read only". This is not that I do not want, it is a technical restriction."


That is insane , what fucking technical restriction can prevent him from unblocking my account for 1 day.


2. Jed McCaleb (old mtgox.com owner) broke NDA agreement by disclosure CONFIDENTIAL document to third parties(new owner Mark Karpeles).

3. interesting view from Mark Karpeles about "terms of use", he saying:
"Please also let me clarify. There was no "terms of service" on mtgox.com, which basically means you are not protected for anything you do on mtgox."



YinCoin YangCoin ☯☯First Ever POS/POW Alternator! Multipool! ☯ ☯ http://yinyangpool.com/ 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623937
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March 18, 2011, 11:35:47 AM
 #718

Some updates.

Issue still not resolved.

1.mtgox.com (now owner Mark Karpeles ) refuse to unblock my mtgox.com account for 1 day, to let me take screenshots of my account as evidences, he saying:
"As I said, I cannot unlock an account while keeping it "read only". This is not that I do not want, it is a technical restriction."

That is insane , what fucking technical restriction can prevent him from unblocking my account for 1 day.

If his code doesn't offer that feature, that's a 'technical restriction'. I'm sure he has many things to do except work on feature requests from you. I know I can think of more important things to implement in mtgox.

2. Jed McCaleb (old mtgox.com owner) broke NDA agreement by disclosure CONFIDENTIAL document to third parties(new owner Mark Karpeles).

What? You had signed an NDA agreement? Why did you not state this earlier? If you went through the trouble of signing legal paperwork, why didn't you make up a contract to ensure the safety of your money as well? You are clearly lying here.

Also, how did you sign this? Obviously you did not meet mtgox. Probably not through mail or fax as you've been asking for contact information. So please do inform us, how did you arrange for this NDA with MtGox?

Obvious criminal is obvious.
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March 18, 2011, 01:14:50 PM
 #719

2. Jed McCaleb (old mtgox.com owner) broke NDA agreement by disclosure CONFIDENTIAL document to third parties(new owner Mark Karpeles).

What? You had signed an NDA agreement? Why did you not state this earlier? If you went through the trouble of signing legal paperwork, why didn't you make up a contract to ensure the safety of your money as well? You are clearly lying here.

Also, how did you sign this? Obviously you did not meet mtgox. Probably not through mail or fax as you've been asking for contact information. So please do inform us, how did you arrange for this NDA with MtGox?

Obvious criminal is obvious.

Obviously.
What a bad excuse of a scammer.

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March 18, 2011, 01:56:57 PM
 #720

Some updates.

Issue still not resolved.

1.mtgox.com (now owner Mark Karpeles ) refuse to unblock my mtgox.com account for 1 day, to let me take screenshots of my account as evidences, he saying:
"As I said, I cannot unlock an account while keeping it "read only". This is not that I do not want, it is a technical restriction."

That is insane , what fucking technical restriction can prevent him from unblocking my account for 1 day.

Screen-shots (images) by themselves won't prove anything. The server is mtgox's. MtGox and friends can send you whatever they want. The best you could do with that access (if they "implement" it) is to somehow record your SSL communications with the server, so that someone can verify that the log you have is really between you and MtGox's server. The MtGox website has a certificate by GoDaddy. The log could be used as a statement by MtGox. But I don't know about the technical details of SSL.

MtGox could give a statement directly, but I see MtGox isn't talking much. At least not in public.

What would help is your giving the details of your transactions with the IRC guy you were talking about. That would be details of 3 transfers of around $1000 from your account to the thief's account at around January 7th to January 9th, that people can fill in on this form. You must have given those in exchange for this money (9000BTC).

2. Jed McCaleb (old mtgox.com owner) broke NDA agreement by disclosure CONFIDENTIAL document to third parties(new owner Mark Karpeles).

I didn't know the names Mark Karpeles and Jed McCaleb until now. I think I'd use MtGox, even without that knowledge. If your "NDA agreement" was simply your asking Jed McCaleb in private not to say anything about you to anyone, then I guess he "broke" that. You said previously that you don't want to give your identity. Maybe these "identities" won't be necessary in the end.

EDIT2: Or maybe the "document" refers to the data in MtGox's server? Makes little difference.

If his code doesn't offer that feature, that's a 'technical restriction'. I'm sure he has many things to do except work on feature requests from you. I know I can think of more important things to implement in mtgox.

Well, he is holding $45000 (possibly more) of Baron's money, while at the same time his claim from Baron is only $3000. Plus, Baron said that he can easily give back the $3000 as it's nothing to him. Funny thing is, I can actually verify that last statement now, since now 9000BTC (the money he got from the thief) isn't worth just $3000. It's worth $7000!

Looks like the stolen money paid for itself already...

EDIT: Baron, could you steal some of my money like that? Please?

EDIT3: I should add that, if MtGox's software has a security vulnerability that allows someone to steal $45000 from someone else, that is MtGox's problem, because that someone else is going to want their money back from MtGox, sooner or later, and that "someone else" is going to sue MtGox if he doesn't get it... Unless MtGox has so much money in his electronic "coffers" that he is going to start resorting to fractional-reserve-like practices, like a bank (if he isn't doing it already).

EDIT4: This whole thing is a big mess... But at least there's enough money for everyone. Grin

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