{BFL} WHAT THE!! ButterflyLads WONT deliver the Monarch Till...ONLY GOD KNOWs?:(

[PuertoLibre]

So - yes, I am looking forward to what chip BFL comes up with... And test results are proving to be quite interesting:

LOL that's not a test result, that's a marketing graph silly!  

Posted for the purposes of discussion. Original graph has been edited to add some detail based on the rough numbers being posted in the graph.

Anyone know of a water loop that can handle more than 400 watts and which is also being employed by BFL in their products?

[Syke]

http://s24.postimg.org/f5g26wl85/Possibly_Omitted_Specs_for_Monarch.png

Posted for the purposes of discussion.

Nothing to discuss. They don't have a working board yet. Those "numbers" aren't accurate.

[RoadStress]

I see it as clearly as the 6283 individuals that filed complaints with PayPal and the FTC. I see it as clearly as many of those who have joined the class action lawsuits against BFL. I see it as clearly as I need to see it and that has nothing to do with any other companies or cooperatives trying to put product out.

Again the simple facts BFL is not to be trusted. Do not buy BFL. Simple.

Those numbers don't mean a lot without the total picture (6283 out of how many? Anyone can file lawsuits, it's the ruling that matters. Innocent till proven guilty and all that...)

For me it's even simpler:
1. Never, EVER, pre-order; and,
2. The best product (again: on the market) gets bought (in this case best :$/Gh/W) eventually...

PS. and still curious to see this final product... eventually... 

I just saw this post. Getting a lot of un-informed people to order your product which was advertised on lies doesn't seem so hard with good marketing. What is really hard is getting them to order again from you after they see the real deal of BFL. 6283 out of ~45k may not look like much, even if 15% is a significant number of people any way you look at it, but please tell me what's the return rate of BFL customers. I am sure that it's less than 10% and that tells everything about how his scamming business works. It's just based on deceiving new customers!

[sbogovac]

[...]Posted for the purposes of discussion.[...]

Sorry PuertoLibre,

as made perfectly clear: "nothing to discuss", this forum is for BFL-bashing only. All others must be "retards" or "shells".

Signed,
Slobodan Bogovac MBA
Prof. of Economic Law

[LittleD]

So I Heard Josh is buying a house for Ricky Martin? Living La vida Loca with each other... I guess spending time on Cinco de Mayo was not enough...


June Bloom is up next... I think we should start a BTC raffle and see what date BFL/Josh will deliver Let me know?
June ?? 2014 - 28 (5.3%)



December ?? 2013  - 1 (0.2%)
January ?? 2014 (Happy NO Monarch Day!) - 5 (0.9%)
February ?? 2014 - 13 (2.5%)
Marnarch 17, 2014 - 26 (4.9%)
April FOOOOOLs,  YOU FOOOls, 2014 hahahahahahhha - 118 (22.4%)
Cinco de Mayo, 2014 ~ Josh is living La vida Loca with Ricky Martin - 29 (5.5%)
June ?? 2014 - 28 (5.3%)
July 04, 2014 ~ set Ur BFL rigs on fire DAY!  - 21 (4%)
August ?? 2014 - 21 (4%)
September 1, 2014 ~ : Labor NO more with BFL - 21 (4%)
October ?? 2014 - 14 (2.7%)
November 27, 2014 ~ Turkey/Josh's day - 6 (1.1%)
December 25, 2014 ~ "SantaJosh brought me coal's again this year" - 19 (3.6%)
What!!! 2015 (Have a Happy Happy New Year From BFL/Josh) - 194 (36.8%)
Two MORE Weeks! I promise...LOVE Josh/Inabobo - 11 (2.1%)
 Lock Voting
Edit Poll  
Total Voters: 527

[Bicknellski]

I see it as clearly as the 6283 individuals that filed complaints with PayPal and the FTC. I see it as clearly as many of those who have joined the class action lawsuits against BFL. I see it as clearly as I need to see it and that has nothing to do with any other companies or cooperatives trying to put product out.

Again the simple facts BFL is not to be trusted. Do not buy BFL. Simple.

Those numbers don't mean a lot without the total picture (6283 out of how many? Anyone can file lawsuits, it's the ruling that matters. Innocent till proven guilty and all that...)

For me it's even simpler:
1. Never, EVER, pre-order; and,
2. The best product (again: on the market) gets bought (in this case best :$/Gh/W) eventually...

PS. and still curious to see this final product... eventually...  

I just saw this post. Getting a lot of un-informed people to order your product which was advertised on lies doesn't seem so hard with good marketing. What is really hard is getting them to order again from you after they see the real deal of BFL. 6283 out of ~45k may not look like much, even if 15% is a significant number of people any way you look at it, but please tell me what's the return rate of BFL customers. I am sure that it's less than 10% and that tells everything about how his scamming business works. It's just based on deceiving new customers!

The options are clear.

With real competition even our 'professor' won't buy BFL given his statements.

So I don't see where he thinks that BFL can survive if they never put out products that ship off the shelf which is now becoming standard for their competitors?

BFL is dead. They don't have a next design, they don't have a current design. They have at this point nothing to sell. If you know anything about their past performance the best advice you can give anyone DO NOT BUY BFL. DO NOT MINE ON ECLIPSE.

This is not bashing BFL. It is just factual information unlike the pretty graph that has no mention of Spondoolies products on it I wonder why they are omitted?

[Bicknellski]

Thought experiment for everyone. If you were to buy a pre-order today and you had only two options BFL or SpondooliesTech which would you risk buying?

Buy a BFL a 1 Th/s of Imperial Monarch unit.

+ $2,939 USD
+ 1 TH/s nominal performance ( + / - 20% )
+ $2.94 per Gh/s but does not include shipping, casing, host computer or PSU.
+ You need an external host computer
+ You need a PSU
+ Chips failed first production bullet run.
+ Unknown delivery date.
+ Water block cooling unrated so there is no way to check if you can run this machine at 1 TH/s and cool it properly.
+ Safety Certification None
+ Emissions Compliance None
+ 650w (estimated at the wall consumption)

28nm Chip Specifications

Process Node   28 nm

*Chips specifications are undocumented on the product page.

Buy a Spondoolies Tech 2U - SP30 Yukon unit

+ $5,395 USD
+ 5.4TH/s ± 10% (6.5 Th/s suggested) unit.
+ $1.20USD per Gh/s
+ August delivery.
+ Chip tape out completed
+ Air cooled
+ Self contained unit
+ Safety Certification CE
+ Emissions Compliance FCC / CE
+ Nominal Power Consumption 2500 W

Rockerbox Chip Specifications

Process Node   28 nm
Package Type   23 mm x 23 mm HFCBGA with stiffener
I/O                  Serial protocol with clk, datain and dataout

Rated Hash Rate   

Rated hash rate:        187 GH/s per chip, with a wide range of overclock/downclock options
Rated Voltage            0.7 V, recommended voltage range is 0.63 V - 0.8 V
Power Consumption    0.38 W/GH/s

[bcp19]

[...]So from your technical and professional experience hacking these singles to death....sbogovac doesn't know what he's talking about.   

So if it's 3 Watts per GH for a Single, and an Antminer S1 is 2 Watts per GH, how is 3<2 again?

Someone has to go back to school and learn basic arithmetic.

Ehhhhh... As I said: you do have to compare the Single to the other Hardware being used back then (in 2013)...

Someone has to go back to school an learn basic reading (and interpreting) skills.

If you go posting in BFL threads, you have to understand that the majority of the trolls here are stupid.  You can spell it out for them to the Nth degree and they still don't get it.  Be glad you've not run across Bick too much, he's in a class by himself.

[k9quaint]

[...]Let me clarify for you even further. I agree [edit.: with the no-pre-order-policy and best-product-of-the-shelf-buy].

I would however add that BFL has NEVER EVER put out product that is NEW and off the shelf. Everything has been pre-order or pre-used. Their best product is 2x the lowest price product available off the shelf. BFL is basic done. They have lied too much and scammed too much to be a player in the marketplace.

But this really is not my experience; I ordered my Single's in december off the shelf...

And  as I said: I - for one - truly hope they're not "done", seeing their "lying" as growing pains/miscommunication and never having seen any proof/sentence for "scamming".

So as far as I'm concerned we're too far off to ever reach a common ground here. We agree on the most important principles (no-pre-order et cetera) and agree to disagree on BFL. (Off to diner, or my wife will..

The user sbogovac registered on January 11, 2014, 02:23:43 PM.
I am guessing he was not here from Aug 2012 through May 2013 where the exact same process occurred (except with an earlier version of BFL's ASIC product).
I am also guessing he was not here either in late 2011 through early 2012 where the exact same process occurred (except with an earlier version of BFL's FPGA product).

I doubt he will read back over the last 3 years of "hey where is my stuff and why isn't it what you promised me?". Why should he? There is nothing for him to gain by doing so.

[Searing]

[...]Posted for the purposes of discussion.[...]

Sorry PuertoLibre,

as made perfectly clear: "nothing to discuss", this forum is for BFL-bashing only. All others must be "retards" or "shells".

Signed,
Slobodan Bogovac MBA
Prof. of Economic Law

fine lets say you are right and they have a "pretty" chip ...untested...(or at least not verified by an outside party)
nothing on the card to make it work yet....cause can't cool it ...likely BFL gonna go bankrupt

i see the bfl chili chip units on ebay 65mm ..was 3rd party open source chip on bfl design
.they are cute...but i'm not gonna buy one from ebay....to hash with
their time is past ...respectful as i am for the open source developers who did get it out

now getting a chili for free to look at and say 'neato' is one thing....someday getting a bfl chip and say
'well the chip is not too bad" but it never shipped...that may also be neato

but it is like looking at a prototype chip that was never released from back in the pc days ..or looking at a
betamax vcr vs the modern vcr...the betamax is probably for example better tech but lost the war

thus is the problem with bfl ..if they just would have acted like a normal company ...gave refunds..took their lumps...they
likely would have gotten return customers and instead of spliting their efforts to screw us by trying to do 3 things at once
make 65mm products/ get equip to themselves and eclipse/ and make another board outside of their tech expertise mode

well if they'd had put the $$ in 65mm stuff and even if late on the back end stuff end of 2013 but you got a refund
they would have kept customers and then coulda in a legit way got equip for eclipse...tried to make a card product
this year etc..the normal operation of a legitimate business in todays world

but it is like saying of only Saddam Hussan was a good leader.....it is all wishful thinking.....no matter how good
their tech (1 yr late) may have been..it is all just dust in the trash heap of bitcoin history...by the by there imho
will be a 'book' on BFL someday especially if the full truth comes out.....BFL the Enron of bitcoin!

Searing

[Bicknellski]

Where are the Monarchs?

[mruiter]

The will come like the usual BFL schedule, when the are worth much less then they will mine in youre whole lifetime.

[Unacceptable]

Where are the Monarchs?

The fourth generation of monarch butterflies is a little bit different than the first three generations. The fourth generation is born in September and October and goes through exactly the same process as the first, second and third generations except for one part. The fourth generation of monarch butterflies does not die after two to six weeks. Instead, this generation of  monarch butterflies migrates to warmer climates like Mexico and California and will live for six to eight months until it is time to start the whole process over again.

http://www.monarch-butterfly.com/

[eestimees]

Where are the Monarchs?

The fourth generation of monarch butterflies is a little bit different than the first three generations. The fourth generation is born in September and October and goes through exactly the same process as the first, second and third generations except for one part. The fourth generation of monarch butterflies does not die after two to six weeks. Instead, this generation of  monarch butterflies migrates to warmer climates like Mexico and California and will live for six to eight months until it is time to start the whole process over again.

http://www.monarch-butterfly.com/

this is the best ever 

[Zelek Uther]

I waited to order the BFL Single's till they were "in stock" and I must say that the chips are superior to any other I use(-d, and I [have] use [-d] Antminer U1's, Technobit HEX16's, BFL Single's and Antminer S1's). They simply hash away more steady (less fluctuations in Hashrate), more power effective (although I really don't care because of my "all-in-office-rent") and more efficiently (less power hungry and less heat dissipation).

I owned three BFL Singles. They hashed at 57GH/s, not the 60GH/s I paid for. They drew 4.2W/GH at the wall on a Platinum PSU (Corsair AX1200i).

My AntMiner S1 is over-clocked to 200GH/s and draws 2W/GH at the wall.  More than twice as power efficient than the BFL Singles.

I'm pretty sure the BFL Singles are the least efficient ASICs in your list.

[Zelek Uther]

So - yes, I am looking forward to what chip BFL comes up with... And test results are proving to be quite interesting:

This picture is worth a thousand lies.

KnC 28nm 1.5W/GH? Where did they get that from? My October Jupiter is 1.2W/GH at the wall.

And where is the real competition? My AntMiner S2 is 1W/GH and my SP10 is 0.76W/GH (I'm running it in the second "quiet" mode, 1.2TH/s drawing 910W. The first "quiet" mode is even more efficient).

Strange that Bitmain and Spondoolies-Tech are missing from the graph, considering they are so popular with miners right now.

[crazyearner]

I feel sorry for thoes who are still buying at BFL so happy I  got refunded last eyar on my orders and never looked at them again.

[ChuckBuck]

So - yes, I am looking forward to what chip BFL comes up with... And test results are proving to be quite interesting:

This picture is worth a thousand lies.

KnC 28nm 1.5W/GH? Where did they get that from? My October Jupiter is 1.2W/GH at the wall.

And where is the real competition? My AntMiner S2 is 1W/GH and my SP10 is 0.76W/GH (I'm running it in the second "quiet" mode, 1.2TH/s drawing 910W. The first "quiet" mode is even more efficient).

Strange that Bitmain and Spondoolies-Tech are missing from the graph, considering they are so popular with miners right now.

Hey, those don't count, they're not based on 28nm tech!   

Probably makes things even more embarassing for BFL, getting beat by older chip technology.

[Bicknellski]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/digging-for-answers-the-strong-smell-of-fraud-from-one-bitcoin-miner-maker/?comments=1&start=80

Great response to the ARSTechnica article.

Code:

What BFL did in the long term, is damage all of the other bitcoin mining 
companies by reputation and inaction.

Let's put that into perspective a bit. 

BFL has a horrendous track record of customer service, and ethics aside, they 
put all of their customers, staff and their interests in a very tenuous position, 
and treated a great number of people badly in an attempt to douse fires and 
promote themselves.

And while any company can have setbacks, BFL failed by any standard to solve 
or help the customers they had in resolving disputes. The doubling of time 
from 6 months to 12 months to produce hardware, and the lack of communication 
with customers caused long-lasting damage

BFL during this time were uncontactable, customer service emails and phone 
calls took months to reply to requests or responses, they redefined the definition 
of terrible service. Their lack of ethics, unashamed and coercive communications, 
while being uncommunicative about their issues or faults.

Every standard of customer service you could imagine, BFL liaisons and employees 
unapologetically failed on every measurable level. in CS terms, they were doing 
everything wrong, fighting with customers, refusing refunds, ignoring customers, 
and denigrating their own products. 

To be fair to BFL, they had a good position in 2012 almost ~30,000 people gave 
BFL between $150 to $30,000, often in bitcoins, to take advantage of ASIC preorder 
discounts, expecting hardware in 6 months. 

BFL had a perfect opportunity and window of time for the release of ASIC hardware, 
but they also had competition from KnC and Avalon, and others, which was BFL's 
critical downfall, they completely ignored the public environment, and they utterly 
failed on every level to handle the customers.

Every month of delay after their promised release date, new ASIC competitors 
launched and released hardware to the market, and this caused exponential 
levels of panic. But, instead of launching hardware, or offering refunds, what 
BFL did, was publish and promote. 

When the first ASICs from Avalon came out, BFL was unavailable. And then, the 
BFL date slipped. and slipped. and slipped, and slipped again. Preorders promising 
a 3-6 month release, eventually took 11+ months, people waited over a year for 
Jalapeno or SC/mini/single/mini-rig ASIC hardware, and people got fidgety. 

By delaying and mishandling the customer base for over 6 months, every other 
competitor took advantage. Refunds were arranged, offered, refused. Some 
people panicked and lost their shit, abuse was taken and given, BFL scam 
warnings were everywhere, threats were veiled and launched, people were hostile.

There are generally speaking, no happy customers of BFL.

All in all, more than enough to be worthy of any awards you deem valid measures 
of awful, horrible, inept, etc. and any general failed attributes of business. 
Nobody trusts BFL and nobody would buy from BFL again willingly. BFL's ineptitude 
gave dozens of competitors a leg up in the marketplace.

Mining hardware is now compared in ROI, based upon how long it takes to get the 
hardware in days. 

Butterfly Labs is the greatest reason for this fear and trepidation. They were not the 
only company to fail to produce hardware, but they failed on such a large scale that 
it shaped the industry. 

ALL Mining Hardware is compared and calculated by how long it will take to arrive. 
A dollar to bitcoin return is more important than the price or the brand name, 
or GH/W power consumption, and if it can't make the standard, and few can, 
people won't invest or buy the hardware.

and while HashFast is also making the same mistakes, they really have shot 
themselves in the foot, the public press of "any day now" blog posts, forum 
updates and general alerts that were not balms for the enraged customer 
base, expecting progress, and getting delays is going to rile people.

Butterfly Labs absolutely deserve the reputation they have made for themselves. 
Full Stop.

As for bitcoin itself, it has hit the worst parts of the zeitgeist, and the downside 
of that is that several cultures and groups are using it to serve other interests, 
and that opens up speculation and opportunity for larceny, investment and fraud 
by contract. i.e. what everyone assumes is regular Business.

Yes, bitcoin is good for investment or transfer of goods, like holding gold, 
diamonds, stock, bonds or Amazon.com gift cards, etc. But the rampant 
speculation and volatility make it hard to really hold it as currency. And 
arguably, anyone asking you to believe that it holds integral or intrinsic value, 
is more than likely trying to scam you in order that they can profit from you, 
offering returns, holding BTC in storage or mining interests, by investing in their 
efforts or putting collateral into a sinking fund for production and early access. 
When the reality is, you're investing in their company without a share of the 
profit or getting into an early investment without any return.

[Henchman24]

With only two days until June, I thought it would be fun to revisit the post that got this thread kicked off.

It's like a fine wine.   

Informations:
Thema: Monarch Information
from BFL_Josh:
There's been a bit of a delay at the foundry on our chips and scheduling. The sample chips have been delayed a few weeks (still waiting on an exact date), so this should only affect the earliest customers, who we've already contacted with regards to the delay. The majority of customers should not be affected much, if at all.
 When I have a specific date from the foundry, I will post an update here with a revised timeline. We still expect to ship the bulk of the orders in/around February. Anyone ordering now will probably not get their order until March or April, just as an FYI and in the spirit of trying to keep realistic expectations on shipping times.
 Due to the delay for the earliest people, the ones affected will be upgraded to the watercooled version for FREE. The watercooled Monarch will be a closed loop system, so no maintenance will be required.
 BFL_Josh 12-09-2013, 03:30 PM at BFL:
Last week, we met with the foundry to go over details of the delay and reach a definitive conclusion. According to the foundry, we should have the first chips on January 9th (still determining specific quantity), but we will be taking delivery of more wafers every week after that, so it really shouldn't affect anything as far as wafer availability goes, regardless of how many come on the 9th.
At that point, chips are shipped to slicing, packaging and bumping, which is estimated to take roughly a week. After that, they are sent to our ASIC design team for testing. This may take up to a week, possibly longer but we believe it will be less than a week for chip bring up. Once the chip(s) are verified working and properly binned, they are sent to our facility in Chicago for mounting on boards and send to several places for more testing and final firmware programming. This should take another week or so. Once that is completed, we will begin shipping product - during this entire time, more wafers will be rolling off the line and going through the same process, so we should have plenty of chips available and ready to go by the time the units are actually ready to be shipped. I don't yet know what that count will be specifically, but it should be a fairly significant portion of the pre-orders. At this point, it looks like the only hold would pose a problem is if the chip didn't work properly for some reason, but we have no reason to believe that is going to be a problem, as the chip is based on our proven 65nm desgin.
 As usual, all of these times and dates are estimates only. It may take more time, it may take less time for each step, but that is the timeline we are working under right now, but it is subject to change. Right now, the plan is for everyone that has a current pre-order, you will be upgraded to the water cooled version of the Monarch for free to compensate for the slight delay.