{BFL} WHAT THE!! ButterflyLads WONT deliver the Monarch Till...ONLY GOD KNOWs?:(

[Unacceptable]

Another lie from dropt!  Who'dathunkit?

BFL is behind by less than a month, if you can even classify it as being behind, since we never promised a shipping date.  Be that as it may, if history repeats itself, we'll be right on target and timeframe for the Monarch.  Our second generation FPGA was underpromised and overdelivered as far as performance goes... if history repeats itself, the second generation ASIC will be as well.

Wow       Now that's worth repeating Inaba !!!    STILL no monarch,it is august ain't it ? Maybe they're in Mexico.......in the chrysalis stage    

[Gleb Gamow]

Speakin' of Chrysalis, something to listen to while rocking away on the thin ice of a new day in front of the living room window awaiting the delivery van to your BFL precious to the front door: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXOyXbhN0Lc

Bonus Track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJcUAk9x9XE (Moths)

[Bitsaurus]

Approaching the middle of August and still not even a hint of shipping.  So when Josh was talking about hoping to ship out the Monarchs by the end of January, did he accidentally do a Quantum Leap and jump back to 2014 from the year 2016?

[FutureMoneyTrends]

At least BFL is being consistent. Consistently over-estimating their delivery dates, right? Did anyone not think this is a likely outcome?

[Searing]

At least BFL is being consistent. Consistently over-estimating their delivery dates, right? Did anyone not think this is a likely outcome?

I must admit I expected them to ship the 'doorstops' before August 2014 that is for sure.....I got (thru dumb luck on their 6 month refund
offer ...probably due to class action and sonny's probation hearing)....the monarch for my 65mm stuff and $$$ and got it all back..but
figured back then with the 65mm it was gonna be a doorstop then (nov/dec 2013) or a doorstop later (according to Josh dec 2014 ..I
figured feb/march 2014....I mean NO ONE could do such a thing TWICE (2013 and 2014) and EXPECT to stay in business w/o FTC
and other public servants...shutting down such a fraud?..I mean surely investigative journalism like bitcoin talk magazine would step
in and expose this scam? (er wait BFL add is still on 2nd page behind cover...er shudder)

er ..oops .. I was wrong...silly me you can play such a ponzi scheme if you (imho) 1) settle with the class action suit 2) settle with
regulatory agencies coming after you .....and eventually bankrupting the company to take the liabilities and $$$ fall

er I mean you announce tapeout last august 2013 and you can't ship the item yet till  agust 2014..come on ..the mind boggles....
...how are you keeping the doors open?

again ponzi scheme ..mine like hell with ..even made for your use 65mm product....don't deliver...pay off 1) and 2) above.....bankrupt BFL and walk

flawless...personal miners saved (check) personal assets safe (check) complicated piece of asic equip that would be cutting edge IF
it actually would work in a case and heat issues etc....(use to claim we tried to grasp to far on our cutting edge stuff) ie the mtgox
defense Mark K. look very very sorry and look very very stupid...still not against the law to drive a corp in the ground for being stupid (check)

bitcoin mined all this time as main BFL activity squirreled away (check) and then give them GH on this pool that MIGHT get the customers
1 BTC lifetime at 600gh ..actually say 1/2 btc...and keep all that non refundable btc and usd ....

it just plain has to be so you can't have a MANUFACTURING PLANT with MORE then 100 employees and
NOT make anything of note what the hell are they doing ..can't be selling that many jallys if they are dumping them
on walmart and tigerdirect.com (but that 65mm sure works keen on your EMC mining farm!) from DEC 2013 till now
AUG 2014.......

UNLESS...you are just using NON-REFUNDABLE $$$ (pure profit or heck if BFL has to give it back it is quite the startup $$$) to MINE
way back in the day when difficulty was LESS THEN 1PH or whatever it once was then pay back or get equip (er not so much) to
the customers who can't get a refund with the profits...

again I got a refund from just dumb luck and I know it...but it has been worth it as an eye opener on just what a corporation can
get away with these days and keep your $$ w/o any regulatory or other consequences.....good to know...again the mind boggles
they have done this 'promise' of asic stuff since as best I can tell JUNE? was it 2012 when they announced the ASIC's then would ship by
Dec 2012...the 65mm stuff!

frigging warped wonderland these asic mnfg live in ..but hey if it works don't fix it

Searing


 

[philipma1957]

At least BFL is being consistent. Consistently over-estimating their delivery dates, right? Did anyone not think this is a likely outcome?

I must admit I expected them to ship the 'doorstops' before August 2014 that is for sure.....I got (thru dumb luck on their 6 month refund
offer ...probably due to class action and sonny's probation hearing)....the monarch for my 65mm stuff and $$$ and got it all back..but
figured back then with the 65mm it was gonna be a doorstop then (nov/dec 2013) or a doorstop later (according to Josh dec 2014 ..I
figured feb/march 2014....I mean NO ONE could do such a thing TWICE (2013 and 2014) and EXPECT to stay in business w/o FTC
and other public servants...shutting down such a fraud?..I mean surely investigative journalism like bitcoin talk magazine would step
in and expose this scam? (er wait BFL add is still on 2nd page behind cover...er shudder)

er ..oops .. I was wrong...silly me you can play such a ponzi scheme if you (imho) 1) settle with the class action suit 2) settle with
regulatory agencies coming after you .....and eventually bankrupting the company to take the liabilities and $$$ fall

er I mean you announce tapeout last august 2013 and you can't ship the item yet till  agust 2014..come on ..the mind boggles....
...how are you keeping the doors open?

again ponzi scheme ..mine like hell with ..even made for your use 65mm product....don't deliver...pay off 1) and 2) above.....bankrupt BFL and walk

flawless...personal miners saved (check) personal assets safe (check) complicated piece of asic equip that would be cutting edge IF
it actually would work in a case and heat issues etc....(use to claim we tried to grasp to far on our cutting edge stuff) ie the mtgox
defense Mark K. look very very sorry and look very very stupid...still not against the law to drive a corp in the ground for being stupid (check)

bitcoin mined all this time as main BFL activity squirreled away (check) and then give them GH on this pool that MIGHT get the customers
1 BTC lifetime at 600gh ..actually say 1/2 btc...and keep all that non refundable btc and usd ....

it just plain has to be so you can't have a MANUFACTURING PLANT with MORE then 100 employees and
NOT make anything of note what the hell are they doing ..can't be selling that many jallys if they are dumping them
on walmart and tigerdirect.com (but that 65mm sure works keen on your EMC mining farm!) from DEC 2013 till now
AUG 2014.......

UNLESS...you are just using NON-REFUNDABLE $$$ (pure profit or heck if BFL has to give it back it is quite the startup $$$) to MINE
way back in the day when difficulty was LESS THEN 1PH or whatever it once was then pay back or get equip (er not so much) to
the customers who can't get a refund with the profits...

again I got a refund from just dumb luck and I know it...but it has been worth it as an eye opener on just what a corporation can
get away with these days and keep your $$ w/o any regulatory or other consequences.....good to know...again the mind boggles
they have done this 'promise' of asic stuff since as best I can tell JUNE? was it 2012 when they announced the ASIC's then would ship by
Dec 2012...the 65mm stuff!

frigging warped wonderland these asic mnfg live in ..but hey if it works don't fix it

Searing


 

 Yeah I got my refund after 13.5 months.
  I wonder why no one has not physically done anything to them.
 You would think at least one customer would have done so by now.

Mind you I don't want people to hurt them.  I just want them to get their money back.


 God help anyone still stuck and on the hook.

BTW I am stuck $0 from BFL

and I am stuck 630 to 900 usd from Black Arrow Still may see some pennies to my dollars here.

I am also down and full lost about .4 btc to BIPS  bunch of theives

So I rate BFL better then BIPS or Black Arrow.

[Xian01]

frigging warped wonderland these asic mnfg live in ..but hey if it works don't fix it

If there is anything we know about Josh Zerlan and Sonny Vleisides of Butterfly Labs, it's that they both have well documented experience with fraudulent behavior, as well as open contempt for the law and ethical behavior; nevermind their customer service efforts and failures (Read: Effectively being forced to issue refunds against their originally stated and legally dubious terms... or firing their customers for their own shortcomings...)

Again, well documented on these forums and elsewhere.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/217190031/2014-01-28-USA-v-Vleisides-Transcript :: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA vs SONNY CHRIS VLEISIDES
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-ksd-2_03-cv-02287/content-detail.html :: 03-2287 - DIRECTV INC V. PUCCINELLI ET AL.

As idealistically wonderful it is to think that a tiger can change it's stripes, isn't it ironic that they are sadly becoming an endangered species ?

[LittleD]

Update from your boy Inabobo/ joshy
"We have been working on a way to make everyone happy and I think we have come up with a pretty good plan. We are finalizing the details this week, so at should have at least preliminaries details for everyone in the next few days hopefully. As a former miner, I would be happy with the plan. I realize it may not satisfy everyone, but I think it will go a long way to making everyone comfortable with their purchase and address the above issue(s) as well."

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/the-monarch-discussion/8738-august-10th-production-update-discussion-2.html

 

[Gleb Gamow]

Update from your boy Inabobo/ joshy
"We have been working on a way to make everyone happy and I think we have come up with a pretty good plan. We are finalizing the details this week, so at should have at least preliminaries details for everyone in the next few days hopefully. As a former miner, I would be happy with the plan. I realize it may not satisfy everyone, but I think it will go a long way to making everyone comfortable with their purchase and address the above issue(s) as well."

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/the-monarch-discussion/8738-august-10th-production-update-discussion-2.html

 

We have been working on a way to make everyone happy.  

I think we have come up with a pretty good plan. <plan completed>

We are finalizing the details this week. <maybe not>

So at should have at least preliminaries details for everyone in the next few days hopefully. <finalizing now = preliminaries, with the caveat 'hopefully'>

As a former miner, <gave it up for lent>

I would be happy with the plan. <seeing that I - solely - devised the plan>

I realize it may not satisfy everyone. <but have a backup plan for them folks involving extra lube>

I think it will go a long way. <IT DOES INVOLVE EXTRA LUBE! I was only joking>

To making everyone comfortable. <that's some remarkable lube>

Their purchase and address the above issue(s) as well. <I'm slippin'! can't think of a funny>


Reading between the lines, there won't be any Monarchs, and all will be compensated with some subpar plan that BFL thinks you will be happy with.

[Searing]

Update from your boy Inabobo/ joshy
"We have been working on a way to make everyone happy and I think we have come up with a pretty good plan. We are finalizing the details this week, so at should have at least preliminaries details for everyone in the next few days hopefully. As a former miner, I would be happy with the plan. I realize it may not satisfy everyone, but I think it will go a long way to making everyone comfortable with their purchase and address the above issue(s) as well."

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/the-monarch-discussion/8738-august-10th-production-update-discussion-2.html

 

no more refunds imho...they are gonna just 1) offer you their 'next product ..ie vaporware plan

                                                           2) say they are gonna compensate your for 1 year at 600gh FREE and your monarch purchase is complete!

                                                           3) some combo if you take hosting they will 'promise' you their new improved next vaporware in the future product

                                                           4) you will have to CHOOSE one of the above in that they 'unfortunately' can't give refunds as to their "no timeline' TOS

and the merry go round starts again for the 2014-2015 Circus.....ah another season of lies/betrayal/back stabbing/destruction/disillusionment...heck BFL is the
the Game of Thrones of the ASIC world! (heh red wedding)

Searing

[jzcjca00]

Never listen to liars.  It just muddies your view of reality.

[crazyearner]

Am still surprised that BFL are still around scamming people and they have not been closed down yet. So happy stuck well away from them

[chek2fire]

Can i ask something? There is no law in the usa and let this companies to scam people forever? Here in europe they will be closed in days and all of them will be in jail.

[jzcjca00]

Can i ask something? There is no law in the usa and let this companies to scam people forever? Here in europe they will be closed in days and all of them will be in jail.

We have lots more lawyers here.

[Searing]

Can i ask something? There is no law in the usa and let this companies to scam people forever? Here in europe they will be closed in days and all of them will be in jail.

www.alpha-t.net is still in business....been scamming people for months UK company..won't give 30% down payment back paid with paypal and cc for example
they got rid of paypal and thus cc option with no refund policy they claim all bitcoin mining is a business and they can keep your 30% down payment .the only
way to get it back is to pay them the last 70% in wire xfer or bitcoin..for a product they promised in july 15h to ship and now say end of September

i got $$ with a lot of effort thru amex on my cc order thru paypal anyone not with cc is getting reamed..

maybe they will have better luck regulation wise in the UK and EU..but it moves so slow they likely will just go bankrupt imho

Searing

[TrekRider]

All of you guys complaining and nobody doing a single thing about it...that is sad...

What ever happened to old fashioned revenge?

[LittleD]

update from your boy Josh:

"I've always tried to do right by the miners, and being a former miner myself I've always been keenly aware of how miners think. On occasion I am overruled here about various points in the past. However, with the new plan, I think everyone is going to be pretty pleased within the context of having miners now vs months ago. I know the most desirable outcome was to have miners a long time ago, but since that didn't happen, I think our new package is going to satisfy the majority, if not everyone. Especially given the fact that as it stands at the moment, you should be able to decide on our offering or a full refund up until your product actually ships, giving you the most flexible option possible.

 As I said, if I were mining today and were presented with the options we will be offering, I would be as satisfied as possible short of having my miners months ago. I'm actually pretty exited to announce it."


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/the-monarch-discussion/8738-august-10th-production-update-discussion-3.html

[Syke]

update from your boy Josh:

"I've always tried to do right by the miners, and being a former miner myself I've always been keenly aware of how miners think. On occasion I am overruled here about various points in the past. However, with the new plan, I think everyone is going to be pretty pleased within the context of having miners now vs months ago. I know the most desirable outcome was to have miners a long time ago, but since that didn't happen, I think our new package is going to satisfy the majority, if not everyone. Especially given the fact that as it stands at the moment, you should be able to decide on our offering or a full refund up until your product actually ships, giving you the most flexible option possible.

 As I said, if I were mining today and were presented with the options we will be offering, I would be as satisfied as possible short of having my miners months ago. I'm actually pretty exited to announce it."


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/the-monarch-discussion/8738-august-10th-production-update-discussion-3.html

They promised Nov '13 shipping, and haven't shipped yet. Difficulty has increased over 20x. If they compensate with 20x hashrate then I'd believe Josh. Anything less and he's simply a liar.

[Bitsaurus]

update from your boy Josh:

"I've always tried to do right by the miners, and being a former miner myself I've always been keenly aware of how miners think. On occasion I am overruled here about various points in the past. However, with the new plan, I think everyone is going to be pretty pleased within the context of having miners now vs months ago. I know the most desirable outcome was to have miners a long time ago, but since that didn't happen, I think our new package is going to satisfy the majority, if not everyone. Especially given the fact that as it stands at the moment, you should be able to decide on our offering or a full refund up until your product actually ships, giving you the most flexible option possible.

 As I said, if I were mining today and were presented with the options we will be offering, I would be as satisfied as possible short of having my miners months ago. I'm actually pretty exited to announce it."


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/the-monarch-discussion/8738-august-10th-production-update-discussion-3.html

They promised Nov '13 shipping, and haven't shipped yet. Difficulty has increased over 20x. If they compensate with 20x hashrate then I'd believe Josh. Anything less and he's simply a liar.

Pretty much this.  Josh hasn't mined since 2012 - he doesn't know jack shit about how the miners think or he wouldn't be telling us to put on our big boy pants.

If they do the right thing they would offer 1GH/s per dollar spent on the Monarch and host it for free (which is the going rate for bought hardware and colocation).  If they can't do this then they need to ship 21x the hasrate in whatever miner they can buy a bulk discount in (I doubt most home users can host 21x hashrate).  Short of these 2 solutions no miner would see what BFL does as a resolution - only a legal maneuver to avoid criminal incrimination.

[Gleb Gamow]

update from your boy Josh:

"I've always tried to do right by the miners, and being a former miner myself I've always been keenly aware of how miners think. On occasion I am overruled here about various points in the past. However, with the new plan, I think everyone is going to be pretty pleased within the context of having miners now vs months ago. I know the most desirable outcome was to have miners a long time ago, but since that didn't happen, I think our new package is going to satisfy the majority, if not everyone. Especially given the fact that as it stands at the moment, you should be able to decide on our offering or a full refund up until your product actually ships, giving you the most flexible option possible.

 As I said, if I were mining today and were presented with the options we will be offering, I would be as satisfied as possible short of having my miners months ago. I'm actually pretty exited to announce it."


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/the-monarch-discussion/8738-august-10th-production-update-discussion-3.html

They promised Nov '13 shipping, and haven't shipped yet. Difficulty has increased over 20x. If they compensate with 20x hashrate then I'd believe Josh. Anything less and he's simply a liar.

Pretty much this.  Josh hasn't mined since 2012 - he doesn't know jack shit about how the miners think or he wouldn't be telling us to put on our big boy pants.

If they do the right thing they would offer 1GH/s per dollar spent on the Monarch and host it for free (which is the going rate for bought hardware and colocation).  If they can't do this then they need to ship 21x the hasrate in whatever miner they can buy a bulk discount in (I doubt most home users can host 21x hashrate).  Short of these 2 solutions no miner would see what BFL does as a resolution - only a legal maneuver to avoid criminal incrimination.

Au contraire, my cute little bunny. I was in Josh's office last Spetember (2013) and witnessed rigs hashing away on a shelf sitting next to drone helicopters. But, those 3-6 (don't remember the count, but josh has posted pics of same) was nothing to compare to the following info, paying close attention to the 'conflict of interest' clauses.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/the-monarch-discussion/8738-august-10th-production-update-discussion-3.html#post85190



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97269.msg1071218#msg1071218



Below is Josh's definition of 'conflict of interest':

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/04/digging-for-answers-the-strong-smell-of-fraud-from-one-bitcoin-miner-maker/2/

Buying a pool and an Audi

Vleisides appealed before US District Court Judge David Kays on December 17, 2013 to answer Pierce's probation claims. There, government prosecutors submitted a seven-page document from Vleisides’ lawyers detailing the structure of BFL and Vleisides' relationship to it.

One of the noteworthy revelations is that Butterfly Labs acquired a local Kansas-based Bitcoin mining pool, Eclipse Mining Consortium, for $100,000 in 2012. The pool's founder, Josh Zerlan, is now a vice president at BFL. (Zerlan publicly announced that he took a job with BFL in 2012, but he did not mention that he actually sold his company to BFL. Zerlan did not respond to a request for comment for this article.)

The revelations get murkier from there. For the first time, the public learned that Butterfly Labs runs its own Bitcoin mining pool for “testing” purposes—and the company uses this test pool to make money. “[BFL] earns mining income from their burn testing of machines as well as service fees charged to Eclipse customers,” documents state.

This revelation represents some of the worst fears held by skeptics of BFL—that the company is using its own hardware to profit privately before sending miners to people who actually paid for them.

As soon above, BFL had full control of Eclipse, with Josh no longer the owner. But, as you'll read below, nary one of Eclipse's clients were privy to this fact, most taking a bath at the end of the day (see the last post of the thread): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89902.0;all

July 15, 2013, 04:38:38 PM    #258

Ok Josh, it's time ...

I know you ordered 2*1.5TH Asic rigs way before Giga so why aren't you sharing profits with your shareholders ?

Josh a.k.a. Inaba: July 15, 2013, 05:11:09 PM     #259

Because I have no minirigs.  As soon as I get some, I will.

July 15, 2013, 05:17:30 PM     #260

Not possible.

Sorry, I don't believe you.

Eclipse went from 2 to 10 TH... and you don't have a rig ?

July 15, 2013, 06:50:54 PM      #261

From BFL_Jody's blogs on the BFL forum, they are still working through 'Day 1' (June 23/2012) orders for minirigs and singles. So not everyone who ordered those on the first day has yet received anything. Josh seems to be one of those unlucky ones. And he isn't alone.

As for Eclipse going to 10TH (actually 12TH as I write this), there are many Avalons, ASICMiners, and BFL Jalapenos (plus whatever Singles from 'Day 1' already shipped) out in the wild now, and continuing to increase ... it isn't unreasonable to expect that at least a portion of those would mine at Eclipse. Look at how much Slush (18TH now) and Eligius (10TH now) have increased over the past month or two; they each added nearly 10TH to their 'pre-ASIC' hashrates ... and so did Eclipse. Nothing particularly unusual here.

Before an angry mob forms to cry "Foul!", how about waiting until minirigs from 'Day 2' start shipping. Assuming Josh has 'Day 1' orders, he should have his by then. And if he doesn't, I'm sure he'll be as angry and frustrated as the rest of us.

Josh, can you share what actual SC hardware is earmarked for BFLS/BFLS.RIG, and how much of that is a 'Day 1' order? I think the issue of power requirements was left unresolved; you last mentioned that you were working out a deal to make more power available.

Skipping over the the mundane post #262, jumping to Josh's post #263

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89902.msg2738911#msg2738911

The reality of the situation is that I'm probably not going to get all of my orders in the order I ordered them in (that's quite a sentence).  Due to the delay in our shipping and the huge backlog, I am going to have to take a back seat to other paying customers.  It's doubly frustrating for me, since I bought and paid for orders before my employment for BFL was even a consideration or in the works, so there's no technical ethical dilemma to resolve... however, lots of people are/would be upset if I took all of my orders on day one for fairly obvious reasons and cries of bias and unfair treatment would abound.  Rightly or wrongly (and it pisses me off, make no mistake), I am simply not going to be able to take all of my orders in the order I should, because I am employed by BFL.

This whole deal really stresses me out to be honest and every day I consider just selling the whole deal and not having to worry about it anymore.  I would potentially consider selling the whole BFLS part and parcel to a trusted buyer, but I'm not even sure how to value it properly for a sale and if there is even anyone out there that wants to run BFLS in the same manner.  I would really like to move on and not have to focus on this particular issue any longer, as I really don't have time for it currently.  

As far as power and space goes ... I can acquire enough for those things, but it is fairly costly, so I'm not sure how to convert the BFLS shares into the ASIC shares at a fair rate, since the current rate measured by the percentage held back for operating costs is likely to not be enough to cover expenses going forward.  While it will be fine up front, on the back end I would be taking a substantial loss I suspect, so converting now at one rate would not account for the rate later on.  

One thing I can do in that situation is take the hosting costs out from the top before paying out shares and once the hosting cost is satisfied each month, start paying out the shares as appropriate.  That'd kind of a headache though.

All the way up till the end of August, 2014, Josh leads ALL his shareholders believing that he ALONE controls Eclipse.

August 31, 2013, 10:36:16 AM     #312

Well, the solution is to wait or I pay out of my pocket and make everyone whole. .026 BTC per share is more value in USD than the shares cost, plus whatever they have generated in the interim = profit for everyone, except me.  

Looks like Josh sure got fucked in that clusterfucked ordeal: http://www.kmbc.com/news/bitcoins-used-to-buy-johnson-county-home/26078516#!bz9k0A