bitcoin-trader.biz

[yonce]

If you are going to play ponzi games, you need to know you are playing one, or you will never be successful in playing them. And then of course if you don't want to play ponzi gambling games, then you need to be aware Bitcoin-trader is one.

[Cassius]

So I originally posted this in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518602.0;topicseen  But of course it was deleted since the pumper is self-moderating the thread.

Has anyone actually received their principal back from this?  20% per month = double your money in 5 months.  Madoff promised 0.83% per month using magical arbitrage strategies and the smart people knew that couldn't be real.

What is the total size of the trading fund?  If you're doing arbitrage with your $1,000 account I could see a 20% return being possible.  But arbitrage opportunities do not scale.  There is a limited amount of arbitrage available in the market and lots of people competing to get it.  And according to bitcoin-trader.biz they are doing manual trading.  How could it be possible for them to get the large amount of arbitrage profits they'd need for those level of returns, especially when they are at a huge disadvantage to automated traders?

Plus they are reporting returns of around 1% per day.  That's a 3778% APY when compounded daily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program).  If they were getting those kinds of returns they wouldn't need to take anybody else's money.  1 BTC invested at those rates in April 2013 would be worth 4,100,974,661,233,895 BTC today.  Or you know, 300,000,000 times the total supply of Bitcoins.

I'm calling it: PONZI

And also:

FYI bitcoin-trader.biz was registered October 2013 (http://who.is/whois/bitcoin-trader.biz).  OP [in that other thread] said they started in April 2013, six months before the domain was registered.  Maybe they used a different domain, but just something to be aware of.

Also 120 days means once you invest you can't withdraw for that long?  Sounds like a way to get lots of people's money, report that they're making lots of gains, but never pay out.  Why would you restrict when they are able to withdraw?

For various reasons I'm inclined to agree. Too much doesn't stack up and not one piece of information I've seen on this thread offers clear reassurance. Too much (everything) is second hand at best or just 'take our word for it', 'start out small until you trust us'. Most concerningly, no one has met the people involved and they have no credible online presence.
There is possibly a way to check: blockchain analysis. It's beyond my skills, but perhaps you can track where coins are going and whether exchanges are involved at all.

[sunny1]

So I originally posted this in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518602.0;topicseen  But of course it was deleted since the pumper is self-moderating the thread.

Has anyone actually received their principal back from this?  20% per month = double your money in 5 months.  Madoff promised 0.83% per month using magical arbitrage strategies and the smart people knew that couldn't be real.

What is the total size of the trading fund?  If you're doing arbitrage with your $1,000 account I could see a 20% return being possible.  But arbitrage opportunities do not scale.  There is a limited amount of arbitrage available in the market and lots of people competing to get it.  And according to bitcoin-trader.biz they are doing manual trading.  How could it be possible for them to get the large amount of arbitrage profits they'd need for those level of returns, especially when they are at a huge disadvantage to automated traders?

Plus they are reporting returns of around 1% per day.  That's a 3778% APY when compounded daily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program).  If they were getting those kinds of returns they wouldn't need to take anybody else's money.  1 BTC invested at those rates in April 2013 would be worth 4,100,974,661,233,895 BTC today.  Or you know, 300,000,000 times the total supply of Bitcoins.

I'm calling it: PONZI

And also:

FYI bitcoin-trader.biz was registered October 2013 (http://who.is/whois/bitcoin-trader.biz).  OP [in that other thread] said they started in April 2013, six months before the domain was registered.  Maybe they used a different domain, but just something to be aware of.

Also 120 days means once you invest you can't withdraw for that long?  Sounds like a way to get lots of people's money, report that they're making lots of gains, but never pay out.  Why would you restrict when they are able to withdraw?

You can withdraw your profits daily. Only the original share price is locked for 120 days. Also, you don't get compounded returns. The return is based on the USD amount of the share. Not BTC amount. Finally, it's only per work days that they trade. I'm not saying it's NOT a ponzi, but several of your points are using incorrect info.

None of my information was incorrect.  Point by point:

You can withdraw your profits daily. Only the original share price is locked for 120 days.

That's why I asked if anyone got their principal back.  Ponzi schemes can always pay out small amounts as long as new investors are joining.  Paying everyone back their full account balance is what a ponzi can't do, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the site follows this pattern.  Paying small amounts is a great way to make people think they are actually making money and spread the word.  In the real world the ponzi operator would send fake statements (too expensive to write checks every day).  In the Bitcoin world it's easy enough to actually send the daily "earnings".

Also, you don't get compounded returns.

If it were a real fund you would get compounded returns.  Any fund manager getting 1% returns per day would obviously reinvest the profits.  The fact that the monthly returns reported on the site are the sum of the daily returns  shows how fake the numbers are.  Imagine you were the fund manager and every day you made 1%.  If the fund was 100BTC that means you'd be making 1BTC per day, so that by the end of the month you'd have 20BTC in profits.  The non-compounded interest reported by the site means the fund manager would just be letting those earnings site idle instead of reinvesting them.  No way would that happen in a real fund.  (And yes some earnings are withdrawn daily, but not all of them).

The return is based on the USD amount of the share. Not BTC amount.

I don't know what this means.  Are you suggesting the fund is returning consistent 1% daily returns on your USD investment?  Despite the fact that it's a BTC/altcoin trading fund and the price of BTC fluctuates wildly?  If the returns are denominated in USD that just makes the whole idea even more ridiculous.

Finally, it's only per work days that they trade.

Ok, so it's only 2000% APY instead of 3778% APY.  And again they claim these absurd returns come from manual trading.  In a fully electronic market.  That has had aggressive automated arbitraging for years.  Right.

In summary: if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

I don't know where you went to school to do your math classes, but you are completely through the roof with your calculations.

Recently they are paying around 20% monthly, I am trading myself sometimes and am making more than 1% per day, but it's very time consuming. Now, we know that they DO NOT offer compounding. Paying 20% a month is in my humble calculations 240% a year or 2.4 BTC if I invest 1 BTC and reinvest after the 120 day term. Not 2000% !!!!!!

Also it is noted that I have withdrawn multiple time my initial deposit for expired shares.

[Cassius]

Compounding and returns apart:
I think they will keep going as long as there is money there, regardless of whether people are withdrawing capital or earnings. Some people's daily/weekly earnings will be higher than others' capital, anyway.
My guess is that the daily earnings will drift downwards as the pot reduces, until the site disappears or announces some takeover/problem/whatever.
I'd like someone to look at the blockchain if they have the skills, to see where the addresses they use lead. It may not prove anything but there may be some evidence there.
This is only a guess, as I said: no real evidence, just a whole load of red flags. That's good enough for me, though.
If anyone has money in there, I'd suggest you withdraw daily to minimise your losses and plan to do without whatever you've not yet recouped.
If you have 'made' money (at the expense of the newcomers who may have signed up through your links) then that's on your conscience. If it bothers you, there are some great charities using bitcoin for microfinance who I'm sure would welcome your donation.

[SirSwatch]

Madoff promised 0.83% per month using magical arbitrage strategies and the smart people knew that couldn't be real.

probably you don't know how High yeld investment work.
personally I partecipate since 2008 to a Private Placement Program with 1.5% per month of revenue. I receive CASH every 3 months (not numbers written into a paper or pdf file...). Obviously is not a program for cheaper investors.....

The problem is to choose a right company for the investment

Personally I trust bitcoin-trader and I have invested a small amount, reinvesting everyday the revenue. With this procedure after one year you have initial_capital x 10. On these investments the rule is: invest the amount you can loose without problem
I'm conscious bitcoin trader people can go away with clients cash, but this risk is everywhere. If you don't love the risk, keep the cash under the bed

my 2 cents

[Cassius]

Madoff promised 0.83% per month using magical arbitrage strategies and the smart people knew that couldn't be real.

probably you don't know how High yeld investment work.
personally I partecipate since 2008 to a Private Placement Program with 1.5% per month of revenue. I receive CASH every 3 months (not numbers written into a paper or pdf file...). Obviously is not a program for cheaper investors.....

The problem is to choose a right company for the investment

Personally I trust bitcoin-trader and I have invested a small amount, reinvesting everyday the revenue. With this procedure after one year you have initial_capital x 10. On these investments the rule is: invest the amount you can loose without problem
I'm conscious bitcoin trader people can go away with clients cash, but this risk is everywhere. If you don't love the risk, keep the cash under the bed

my 2 cents

What are your reasons for trusting them?

[pleiotropik]

Sri Lanka. 

[coiner8]

I don't know where you went to school to do your math classes, but you are completely through the roof with your calculations.

Recently they are paying around 20% monthly, I am trading myself sometimes and am making more than 1% per day, but it's very time consuming. Now, we know that they DO NOT offer compounding. Paying 20% a month is in my humble calculations 240% a year or 2.4 BTC if I invest 1 BTC and reinvest after the 120 day term. Not 2000% !!!!!!

Also it is noted that I have withdrawn multiple time my initial deposit for expired shares.

All of sunny1's postings (at least the most recent few pages) are either pro bitcoin-trader.biz or anti btc-arbs.com.  It's a shill account.

probably you don't know how High yeld investment work.
personally I partecipate since 2008 to a Private Placement Program with 1.5% per month of revenue. I receive CASH every 3 months (not numbers written into a paper or pdf file...). Obviously is not a program for cheaper investors.....

The problem is to choose a right company for the investment

Personally I trust bitcoin-trader and I have invested a small amount, reinvesting everyday the revenue. With this procedure after one year you have initial_capital x 10. On these investments the rule is: invest the amount you can loose without problem
I'm conscious bitcoin trader people can go away with clients cash, but this risk is everywhere. If you don't love the risk, keep the cash under the bed

my 2 cents

Each of SirSwatch's 4 postings are about bitcoin-trader.biz and each encourages people to reinvest their earnings.  In two of the postings he's encouraging people to invest up to $50,000 and collect money from friends and family to invest.  Another shill account.

If it's not obvious to you by now that is this a ponzi, frankly you deserve to lose the money you invest.  At least it will be a lesson for next time.  I'll leave you with this:

With this procedure after one year you have initial_capital x 10

[sunny1]

I don't know where you went to school to do your math classes, but you are completely through the roof with your calculations.

Recently they are paying around 20% monthly, I am trading myself sometimes and am making more than 1% per day, but it's very time consuming. Now, we know that they DO NOT offer compounding. Paying 20% a month is in my humble calculations 240% a year or 2.4 BTC if I invest 1 BTC and reinvest after the 120 day term. Not 2000% !!!!!!

Also it is noted that I have withdrawn multiple time my initial deposit for expired shares.

All of sunny1's postings (at least the most recent few pages) are either pro bitcoin-trader.biz or anti btc-arbs.com.  It's a shill account.

probably you don't know how High yeld investment work.
personally I partecipate since 2008 to a Private Placement Program with 1.5% per month of revenue. I receive CASH every 3 months (not numbers written into a paper or pdf file...). Obviously is not a program for cheaper investors.....

The problem is to choose a right company for the investment

Personally I trust bitcoin-trader and I have invested a small amount, reinvesting everyday the revenue. With this procedure after one year you have initial_capital x 10. On these investments the rule is: invest the amount you can loose without problem
I'm conscious bitcoin trader people can go away with clients cash, but this risk is everywhere. If you don't love the risk, keep the cash under the bed

my 2 cents

Each of SirSwatch's 4 postings are about bitcoin-trader.biz and each encourages people to reinvest their earnings.  In two of the postings he's encouraging people to invest up to $50,000 and collect money from friends and family to invest.  Another shill account.

If it's not obvious to you by now that is this a ponzi, frankly you deserve to lose the money you invest.  At least it will be a lesson for next time.  I'll leave you with this:

With this procedure after one year you have initial_capital x 10

Just because people like and support it, it's a ponzi??? You got a logic dude....

[Cassius]

I think it's time that I bowed out of this thread too. Goodnight.

[GoldSurfer]

Just because people like and support it, it's a ponzi??? You got a logic dude....

Maybe the logic is useless, but he is absolutely right in relation to this "organization". Time will show everything.

[gizmoh]

Its a typical HYIP/ponzi scam. I have a long gamble history with hyips. They offer too good to be true ROI with capital guaranteed, without ever showing credible proof of these returns, honoring withdrawals, until withdrawals grow larger than deposits, and finally the music stop and they close shop.
Do NOT send your coins to these thieves.

[crazyivan]

So why do you use HYIPs? You say you have a long history with HYIPs and they are thieves, why do you play with thieves?

[vipgelsi]

Its a typical HYIP/ponzi scam. I have a long gamble history with hyips. They offer too good to be true ROI with capital guaranteed, without ever showing credible proof of these returns, honoring withdrawals, until withdrawals grow larger than deposits, and finally the music stop and they close shop.
Do NOT send your coins to these thieves.

Hopefully this will be different here.

[gizmoh]

So why do you use HYIPs? You say you have a long history with HYIPs and they are thieves, why do you play with thieves?

So you agree its a HYIP.. Back in 2005-2010 , hyips/ponzis, were the craze on the net. I have never heard of any hyip which turned out to be legit. they ALL closed shop and turned out to be total ponzis.( Realitymillions, Freelandopps, 12dailyPro  etc)

As a newbie, I invested without second thought, made profit in some, got burnt in others and later learnt about pyramidal nature of those high yield programs. All in all its a losing game for the investor. If the participants are fully aware the investment proposal is a ponzi scheme and is willing to take risk of losing it all, then so be it.
But to lure people into believing there is real business going on( arbitrage) and generating real returns just by showing proof of payments is very misleading.

[crazyivan]

In my thread, I have clearly stated a potential risk of investing into Bitcoin trader as well as investing into anything else Bitcoin related. I would really like to see any kind of proof for your theory about Bitcoin trader being a scam. Anything, anywhere, ever? Oh, right, u got burnt on some investment 10 years ago so everything else must be a scam.

[yonce]

So why do you use HYIPs? You say you have a long history with HYIPs and they are thieves, why do you play with thieves?

So you agree its a HYIP.. Back in 2005-2010 , hyips/ponzis, were the craze on the net. I have never heard of any hyip which turned out to be legit. they ALL closed shop and turned out to be total ponzis.( Realitymillions, Freelandopps, 12dailyPro  etc)

As a newbie, I invested without second thought, made profit in some, got burnt in others and later learnt about pyramidal nature of those high yield programs. All in all its a losing game for the investor. If the participants are fully aware the investment proposal is a ponzi scheme and is willing to take risk of losing it all, then so be it.
But to lure people into believing there is real business going on( arbitrage) and generating real returns just by showing proof of payments is very misleading.

I do think people need to be warned about bitcoin-trader. This is the type of program that who knows what their plan is. They offer lower returns than even a low term HYIP which is why they have even been able to play this long. I'm afraid bitcoin-trader's plan will, one unfortunate person with a 1,000 bitcoin is going to give it to them, and they will disappear. bitcoin-trader doesn't just want a piece of the 100 million a year HYIP industry, they want a big ol chunk of the bitcoin economy to take with them.

[sunny1]

So why do you use HYIPs? You say you have a long history with HYIPs and they are thieves, why do you play with thieves?

So you agree its a HYIP.. Back in 2005-2010 , hyips/ponzis, were the craze on the net. I have never heard of any hyip which turned out to be legit. they ALL closed shop and turned out to be total ponzis.( Realitymillions, Freelandopps, 12dailyPro  etc)

As a newbie, I invested without second thought, made profit in some, got burnt in others and later learnt about pyramidal nature of those high yield programs. All in all its a losing game for the investor. If the participants are fully aware the investment proposal is a ponzi scheme and is willing to take risk of losing it all, then so be it.
But to lure people into believing there is real business going on( arbitrage) and generating real returns just by showing proof of payments is very misleading.

I do think people need to be warned about bitcoin-trader. This is the type of program that who knows what their plan is. They offer lower returns than even a low term HYIP which is why they have even been able to play this long. I'm afraid bitcoin-trader's plan will, one unfortunate person with a 1,000 bitcoin is going to give it to them, and they will disappear. bitcoin-trader doesn't just want a piece of the 100 million a year HYIP industry, they want a big ol chunk of the bitcoin economy to take with them.

Again trolling without any proof. But people here are used to it 

[yonce]

So why do you use HYIPs? You say you have a long history with HYIPs and they are thieves, why do you play with thieves?

So you agree its a HYIP.. Back in 2005-2010 , hyips/ponzis, were the craze on the net. I have never heard of any hyip which turned out to be legit. they ALL closed shop and turned out to be total ponzis.( Realitymillions, Freelandopps, 12dailyPro  etc)

As a newbie, I invested without second thought, made profit in some, got burnt in others and later learnt about pyramidal nature of those high yield programs. All in all its a losing game for the investor. If the participants are fully aware the investment proposal is a ponzi scheme and is willing to take risk of losing it all, then so be it.
But to lure people into believing there is real business going on( arbitrage) and generating real returns just by showing proof of payments is very misleading.

I do think people need to be warned about bitcoin-trader. This is the type of program that who knows what their plan is. They offer lower returns than even a low term HYIP which is why they have even been able to play this long. I'm afraid bitcoin-trader's plan will, one unfortunate person with a 1,000 bitcoin is going to give it to them, and they will disappear. bitcoin-trader doesn't just want a piece of the 100 million a year HYIP industry, they want a big ol chunk of the bitcoin economy to take with them.

Again trolling without any proof. But people here are used to it  

If I made a dossier about every poor unfortunate scam, I wouldn't have any time left to make money some people will just never see the writing on the wall and that's how it will always be unfortunately.

[hypersire]

So much trolling on this thread!

I have played HYIPs in the past and what others are saying is true - they claim to do things such as forex trading when really it is just a ponzi scheme. However, Bitcoin Trader has some very clear differences that I would like to point out:

1) They steer clear from advertising on HYIP monitors/forums and even refused to comply with a blackmail attempt by one of them (so this HYIP monitor lists them as non-paying now).

If this is simply a ponzi scheme, don't you think they would want to advertise as much as possible to draw as many people in?!

2) They are not just involved in arbitrage trading, they are also involved with mining (another income stream).

3) They immediately convert your BTC to USD so they are not susceptible to exchange rate risk (makes sense as USD is needed to purchase BTC on the various exchanges to engage in arbitrage trading).

4) The returns vary and they have even had negative days (if they were a simply ponzi like BTC-Arbs, don't you think there would always be positive returns?!)

5) THEY HAVE SENT REPRESENTATIVES TO BITCOIN CONFERENCES!

Have you ever heard of a HYIP sending people to a conference?!

Given these facts, I believe that Bitcoin Trader is legit - they are run by a bunch of Bitcoin aficionados (not HYIP scum like BTC Arbs) and they are engaged in Bitcoin mining and arbitrage trading. Since both the price and volatility of Bitcoin has declined lately, so have the payouts from both the trading and mining contracts, further strengthening the argument that they are actually doing what they say they are.

So going forward, instead of just spewing verbal diarrhea and calling Bitcoin Trader a HYIP or ponzi, why not try to analyze the actual facts instead?

Note: Even though I have total faith in Bitcoin Trader, there are always "risks" such as a security breach, collapse in Bitcoin value / volatility, closure of exchanges, etc. As with ANY investment, never play with more than you can afford to lose!