[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread

[porqupine]

These posts, although unpleasant, are also necessary to learn and grow. If we don't understand what we are doing wrong we will continue to do so.

One of the main differences between Nxt and XCP is that NXT has a central lead, someone who is directly responsible and invested in the success of the currency. With XCP no one person is any more invested than the next. We all stand to gain and lose just as much as we invested.

NXT has someone to say "hey, this is a problem, so we are going to do this". Where as XCP doesn't have that central lead or authority. This was the decision of the developers to create a grass-roots free-growing enterprise and only the future will tell how it all turns out. I don't support this model and in the past I have voiced my opinions on the subject so I wont rehash them. It's also important to understand that NXT isn't limited by outside factors (BTC). NXT lives and dies by its own decisions. It is not arbitrarily limited or denied (OP return anyone?) by external forces (BTC developers). The initial XCP developers chose to attach this project to BTC for certain reasons and it was their right to choose so.

I've got to address this: No gods, no kings, just NXT.

NXT is as completely de-centralised as we can possibly make it, there is no overall leader or even group of leaders. Makes life harder when it comes to making decisions sometimes, but it's worth it.

Come on over to our funky little forum:
www.nxtforum.org
and see how NXT rolls....

Hard to argue with that.

Yeah, well, except for the slavery part. The guys who built the pyramids where free craftsmen working for good wages and the sheer glory of building big things.

Yes and even, it is better not to have the Pyramids, if it can save even one single man from slavery.

I'd take the pyramids   

[Ola]

For now, we should point out that proof-of-stake mining has inherent problems, which, to my knowledge, neither BCNext nor anyone else in the Nxt community has addressed. In particular, the well-known "nothing at stake" attack, by which miners can mine on multiple blockchains at no cost to themselves; this is in contrast to proof-of-work, where the resources one uses to mine are depleted in the process of mining. "Transparent forging" doesn't solve this problem, and, in any case, transparent forging has not even been implemented yet.

This is what a Nxt dev had to say about the "nothing-at-stake" problem:

If you have a computer that can forge a very large number of accounts in parallel without using any CPU and can also fund these large number of accounts without costing any NXT, then sure nothing is at stake

In my experience though you need to fund each separate acct with NXT (wait long enough) and then even a small amount of CPU time, multiplied by millions of accounts, well that seems to take some CPU power after all.
So, if you ignore the millions in NXT fees to create the accounts and the CPU power needed to forge on those millions of accounts, then you can try to monkey around with grabbing all the forging fees.

economically it doesnt make sense as there is NXT at stake. I think the premise of "nothing at stake" is that it rhymes with "proof of stake" so it has to make sense. It seems the assumption is that they can buy an arbitrary amount of NXT for free, so maybe much closer to genesis this would have been an issue, but now it is nonsensical.

That has nothing to do with mining on multiple chains at once.

Your last statement show a complete lack of understanding of the NXT forging algorithm and its because of you and the like's of peter todd not taking the time to research before commenting, that people who are not technically adept run regurgitating untrue statements at these meetups...Nxt POS algo is much different than any other POS or even Peercoins algorithm...

I have been following counterparty's development since the first burn and up until now I have admired the efforts of the devs..I have looked into the details of Nxt and counterparty, and I must say that even though they are competing projects, the devs here should take more responsibility when talking about technical details of competing projects...

if you want to make valid criticisms and quit misleading your audience, at least you can start by reviewing some of the discussions by the core developers here: https://nxtforum.org/general/how-does-nxt-fix-the-nothing-at-stake-problem/ your nothing at stake argument is moot, know the facts before your use your authority to mislead others

Edit: and for your info I am a major burner....

At the 56:50 mark:  http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltb94-privacy-and-the-arts/ complete FUD and untruths...and thousands of people repeat the same thing confidently like parrots...Nxt is significantly different than peercoin POS, any other proof of stake and the fundamental the code base which is written in java. Nxt is has decentralized as you can get from marketing, development and all other initiatives. Shame on Adam for passive action in letting that smear fly by...You devs have to realize your power and take better responsibility!

[Bitcoin++]

Hi guys,

I need some help trading on the dex.

I have just made an order to buy xcp with btc but it says i have to wait 45 minutes...

can i just transfer btc somewhere and get xcp?

i am very confused.

Same problem here. Questions to developers:

1. What is the "BTC Fee Provided" / "BTC Fee Required"? Who pays the fee and who receives it? What purpose has it? Is it for every order or just matched ones?
2. Why are bids and asks overlapping in the order book?
3. My orders got filled but I never received BTC (though I got XCP refunded, no loss). Is it so that the other trader must be online to send the BTC, so if he is not, the order rather expires?
4. Will Vennd improve this?
5. As I understand, XCP and assets issued by counterparty can be traded perfectly. It's only BTC that suffers from this because it cannot be escrowed.

[bluemeanie1]

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

[devphp]

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

Hello, scammer.

Will you return one million NXTs you scammed from NXT community?

[joefox]

That has nothing to do with mining on multiple chains at once.

Please explain how, precisely, you would forge on multiple Nxt chains at once.  How would you:

1) set up multiple network nodes, with at least some stake forging on each, and keep them from getting blacklisted for bad behaviour
2) learn enough about network topology in real time to understand which forks are being processed on each of your non-blacklisted nodes -- or, better yet, predict which forks will operate on those non-blacklisted nodes
3) successfully exercise enough stake on those forks (hint: you can't move your stake from one account to another, because it won't forge until it's been in that account for 1440 blocks) to be able to forcibly forge enough blocks to create the longest chain, before any one of the other forks (being processed by a much larger proportion of total stake) outperforms you (hint: you've got about 100 seconds to do it, in competition with all of the other active accounts on the whole network, assuming all previous questions have been successfully met and verified, and then you have to start all over from step 1)

I'll wait.

You're also welcome to follow the old debate (and chime in) on our forum, here: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/some-thoughts-on-arguments-of-pow-guys/

[joefox]

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

Takes one to know one.

When will you return the 1 million Nxt worth of assets you were given to deliver a product for which you did not write a single line of code, Josh?

[visual111]

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

If it's no good, then return the 1 mill nxt? Why keep it if the algo is no good

[Matt Y]

Maybe go talk about it in an NXT thread?

[sparta_cuss]

The NXT forging algorithm is a complete fraud.

-bm

Hello, Counterpartiers

Sorry for the intrusion. We've been having quite a tussle with Mr. Meanie over at the Nxt forums. He defrauded one of our developers and wrote quite a lot of false and, frankly, rather crazy comments about Nxt and many of the developers and investors.

We'll try to get him back on our side of the fence.

Meantime, please respect the comments from the other Nxters here and do some research on the unique Nxt application of the proof-of-stake concept so that you don't simply repeat uninformed pseudo-analyses.

P.S. I own both Nxt and XCP. They target entirely different types of users with different visions for how this space will play out. I think we can get along.

[davethetrousers]

If attacking the NXT chain is really so unfathomably easy as is stated by some dudes, then they should just go ahead and make it big. Cash out some millions of NXT and crash the system right after. Because, why not? Nothing's at stake, amirite?

Feel free to come at us...



Honestly, it seems to be nothing more than childish disregard of a promising technology (no offence to XCPers in general, just the FUDdy PoW acolytes)

[PhantomPhreak]

Hi guys,

I need some help trading on the dex.

I have just made an order to buy xcp with btc but it says i have to wait 45 minutes...

can i just transfer btc somewhere and get xcp?

i am very confused.

Same problem here. Questions to developers:

1. What is the "BTC Fee Provided" / "BTC Fee Required"? Who pays the fee and who receives it? What purpose has it? Is it for every order or just matched ones?
2. Why are bids and asks overlapping in the order book?
3. My orders got filled but I never received BTC (though I got XCP refunded, no loss). Is it so that the other trader must be online to send the BTC, so if he is not, the order rather expires?
4. Will Vennd improve this?
5. As I understand, XCP and assets issued by counterparty can be traded perfectly. It's only BTC that suffers from this because it cannot be escrowed.

1) It's an anti-trolling fee just for orders involving BTC. The user buying a Counterparty asset for Bitcoin pays the fee to the user receiving the Bitcoin. In order to match, the requested fee must be less than the provided fee.
2) This is because not all orders are matched will all others all of the time. This situation should be dramatically improved with block 310000.
3) Yep.
4) It will provide users with other ways of buying XCP and other Counterparty assets, so indirectly yes.
5) That's correct.

[porqupine]

If attacking the NXT chain is really so unfathomably easy as is stated by some dudes, then they should just go ahead and make it big. Cash out some millions of NXT and crash the system right after. Because, why not? Nothing's at stake, amirite?

Feel free to come at us...

Honestly, it seems to be nothing more than childish disregard of a promising technology (no offence to XCPers in general, just the FUDdy PoW acolytes)

PoS implementations have a lot of issues and as far as I am given to understand NXT has not solved these in a strong way - if at some point these issues are resolved (by NXT or any other crypto/developer) it would doubtlessly be a very useful achievement. The NXT ipo on the other hand was basically ridiculous and it's limited nature combined with Proof of Stake will probably doom NXT as an alternative currency, which is not to say, ample technological gains/ideas might not come from NXT having existed as a project.

edit: removed gif from quote

[davethetrousers]

PoS implementations have a lot of issues and as far as I am given to understand NXT has not solved these in a strong way

As I was alluding to: There is no historic evidence for any big exploit of some of these issues that suddenly seemed to pop up. And we wouldn't really need much more than one or two proven exploit cases to really show them, if they were in fact the case. Remember, these claims go to the very theoretical fundamentals and should be able to easily topple the whole shebang, shouldn't they?

On the other hand, NXT bugs have been exploited and the NXT network has been attacked in various ways, often exploiting some fringe boundary conditions or special cases. Everything has got and continues to get fixed as soon and effectively as possible.

[EvilDave]

And, lets face it, NXT has proved remarkably resilient so far.

We know that there are people running rainbow table attacks against the NXT blockchain 24/7, still hoping to exploit an old flaw in password security.
Try placing NXT on an account protected by the password "dog" and timing how quickly it vanishes......

But that is, touch wood, the only successful attack vector found. If any of these theoretical "nothing at stake" attacks worked, someone would have done it by now.

Moving back a post: I've had enough hassle about the NXT 'IPO' to last me a lifetime. If you want a full rebuttal on why the initial distribution no longer really mattters, I'll leave that for someone else.
I just gotta say that it was NXT that sparked off the IPO trend in crypto-land, god help us.
And it seems to have worked well enough......

[BldSwtTrs]

I just gotta say that it was NXT that sparked off the IPO trend in crypto-land, god help us.
And it seems to have worked well enough......

No, it was mastercoin.

[jl777]

I burned about 0.45% of XCP

I have been a quiet supporter but now that the XCP devs are making statements against other coins without actually understanding the details, well I can no longer support XCP.

Things must be getting pretty desperate if core devs have to start trash talking NXT.

WTS 12000+ XCP. I dont have exact count they are still in the original burner accts, 12 full BTC burns toward the end of the burn period.

There is so little liquidity for XCP, I dont want to hurt the price by dumping it on the exchanges. I just do not want to have any more XCP when the core devs are resorting to repeating unsubstantiated FUD without even engaging in a technical discussion. "nothing at stake" rhymes with "proof of stake" so it must be true. Well, that is no way for technical leads of a major project to behave. If that is the depth of their thinking, then I worry about what else they have skimped on.

PM me if you want to buy at least one burner acct.

James

P.S. for those who want to actually analyze some part of NXT http://www.docdroid.net/cckd/forging0-4-3.pdf.html has some math, but it doesnt rhyme.

[From Above]

Joshua Zeidner is a complete fraud

-bm

correct my nifty boy.  more details on  Joshua Zeidner Josh Zeidner bluemeanie1:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=656116.0


~CfA~

[prophetx]

Joshua Zeidner is a complete fraud

-bm

correct my nifty boy.  more details on  Joshua Zeidner Josh Zeidner bluemeanie1:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=656116.0


~CfA~

i don't really follow what's on that thread. maybe you need a lawyer or someone good at presenting evidence to lay it out in a way a layman can understand what exactly transpired, right now it just doesn't follow a logical flow at all. 

no offense to you but your presentation skills can use some tuning, i mean that with all respect so that you improve and can voice your case in a manner which benefits you.

[Ola]

I burned about 0.45% of XCP

I have been a quiet supporter but now that the XCP devs are making statements against other coins without actually understanding the details, well I can no longer support XCP.

Things must be getting pretty desperate if core devs have to start trash talking NXT.

WTS 12000+ XCP. I dont have exact count they are still in the original burner accts, 12 full BTC burns toward the end of the burn period.

There is so little liquidity for XCP, I dont want to hurt the price by dumping it on the exchanges. I just do not want to have any more XCP when the core devs are resorting to repeating unsubstantiated FUD without even engaging in a technical discussion. "nothing at stake" rhymes with "proof of stake" so it must be true. Well, that is no way for technical leads of a major project to behave. If that is the depth of their thinking, then I worry about what else they have skimped on.

PM me if you want to buy at least one burner acct.

James

P.S. for those who want to actually analyze some part of NXT http://www.docdroid.net/cckd/forging0-4-3.pdf.html has some math, but it doesnt rhyme.

Same here, I could easily sell more than 4 times that amount on the exchanges if I wanted. Would not confirm how much I have sold thus far but one of your huge supporters can attest to that...

At the 56:50 mark:  http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltb94-privacy-and-the-arts/ complete FUD and untruths...and thousands of people repeat the same thing confidently like parrots...Nxt is significantly different than peercoin POS, any other proof of stake and the fundamental the code base which is written in java. Nxt is has decentralized as you can get from marketing, development and all other initiatives. Shame on Adam for passive action in letting that smear fly by...You devs have to realize your power and take better responsibility!

Early on I saw the value the developers brought to the table by producing actual working code like bcnext did with NXT in the beginning as opposed to mastercoin's approach... you never know who your audience is, still neither FUD spreaders have done the right thing to do actual research engage in constructive true criticism and stop misleading people...This goes hand in hand with the influence over media to ignore arguably one of the most innovative crypto's in the 2.0 arena....still innovation will win out, it all boils down to one thing Demand which comes from "USE", all of which is fundamentally baked into NXT albeit not released yet. Counterparty on the other hand derives its demand from the use of it complex financial instruments which really is a long term play.

The thing is these devs really see it as a cut throat competition rather than opportunity for working synergies, hence the tactical FUD spreading. But  I rather see counterparty succeed over mastercoin because they have proved more competent and efficient thus far, however just because you have suspicion that your competition has superior technology does not give you the right to spread lies..I feel personally empowered that I could have an effect on short term price if this nonsense continues..in the long term, well you will have Nxt ethereum, bitshares and maybe mastercoin to compete with over the mindshare and top choices ...Nxt is a completely different beast on its own. its real value will be very evident in less than 2-3 months when it actually competes with bitcoin, then you will be forced to review its actual workings....

You do know gocoin is actually integrating nxt,  specific NXT to usd exchange almost due for launch and patrick byrne is actively looking to use the nxt asset exchange right? I don't think they all are naive