Silk Road: anonymous marketplace. Feedback requested :)

[marcus_of_augustus]

Worse still is the sheer number of users in the relatively tech-savvy USA who stand to lose a great deal when the hammer finally falls.

Bring it. The govt. and banksters have put them out of work and on the scrap heap so they have nothing to lose.

I think you are starting to "get it". The free market will not be denied what it needs. Right now it needs the bitcoin monetary product more than any other technology or product out there. The current monetary products are busted, legal, moral, ethical, rubber-stamped ivy-league lauded or otherwise. Or have you been off the grid for the last 10 years?

Go against the free market at your absolute peril.

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[Goldenmaw]

Bring it. The govt. and banksters have put them out of work and on the scrap heap so they have nothing to lose.

I think you are starting to "get it". The free market will not be denied what it needs. Right now it needs the bitcoin monetary product more than any other technology or product out there. The current monetary products are busted, legal, moral, ethical, rubber-stamped ivy-league lauded or otherwise. Or have you been off the grid for the last 10 years?

Go against the free market at your absolute peril.

What you are speaking of will require violent revolution to bring about, without the cooperation of my government.  If that is the way of things, so be it.  I got this from the very beginning.  What I don't get is the people here who believe that bitcoins can exist in the defiance of a power structure that has every reason to stop bitcoins.

[MoonShadow]

Bring it. The govt. and banksters have put them out of work and on the scrap heap so they have nothing to lose.

I think you are starting to "get it". The free market will not be denied what it needs. Right now it needs the bitcoin monetary product more than any other technology or product out there. The current monetary products are busted, legal, moral, ethical, rubber-stamped ivy-league lauded or otherwise. Or have you been off the grid for the last 10 years?

Go against the free market at your absolute peril.

What you are speaking of will require violent revolution to bring about, without the cooperation of my government.  If that is the way of things, so be it.  I got this from the very beginning.  What I don't get is the people here who believe that bitcoins can exist in the defiance of a power structure that has every reason to stop bitcoins.

You give governments too much credit.  They are, after all, simply vast organizations of people.

[Goldenmaw]

Vaster and far better armed than the bitcoin movement, my friend.  And it'll stay that way without the people on our side.  How are we to leverage public opinion in the defense of bitcoins?

[lemonginger]

Vaster and far better armed than the bitcoin movement, my friend.  And it'll stay that way without the people on our side.  How are we to leverage public opinion in the defense of bitcoins?

by letting them buy drugs hahahaha

[Goldenmaw]

Cute, but totally inadequate.

[MoonShadow]

Vaster and far better armed than the bitcoin movement, my friend. 

I doubt that seriously.  A war machine on the scale of the US military is ill equipt for a occupation of it's own citizenry.  I should know, I was once part of that military machine.  I, like many of my brethren, saw the ugly truth of our nationalism writ large from the inside of that machine.  The only way to do what you expect that they will do, is to use loyal manpower willing to kill in the defense of an ideal.  Not only is this already a limited subset of the population at it is, it would rapidly decrease once the whole thing started.  One man can only carry one rifle at a time, so in the end the whole of the Us military is at a disadvantage.  And I'm sure that you would discount this as rediculous, because you believe that the public favors the government as such.  And this is probably true at present, but nothing less than a civil war is going to stop the breakdown of the status quo now; and if the government starts a civil war with it's own citizenry, it's going to have more than a crisis of confidence on it's hands.

[Goldenmaw]

We don't have the numbers to force a military action.  They'll label us criminals, round us up for fraud, counterfeiting and what have you, and any of us dumb enough to take up arms will be labeled terrorists on fox news and, if they manage to evade being killed outright, they'll be imprisoned too.  All they'd need to use is the DEA's current infrastructure to serve up warrants for raids, and local enforcement would handle it from there.

And where would we get revolutionary numbers, when the John Q Public has either yet to hear of bitcoins, or he has heard bad things?

I have introduced the topic of revolution in some of these discussions to point out the depressing impossibility of defiant use of bitcoins in this country, at this time.  Not as a serious idea.

[MoonShadow]

We don't have the numbers to force a military action.  They'll label us criminals, round us up for fraud, counterfeiting and what have you, and any of us dumb enough to take up arms will be labeled terrorists on fox news and, if they manage to evade being killed outright, they'll be imprisoned too.  All they'd need to use is the DEA's current infrastructure to serve up warrants for raids, and local enforcement would handle it from there.

And where would we get revolutionary numbers, when the John Q Public has either yet to hear of bitcoins, or he has heard bad things?

I have introduced the topic of revolution in some of these discussions to point out the depressing impossibility of defiant use of bitcoins in this country, at this time.  Not as a serious idea.

You don't get it.  There is no "us".  I won't be participating in any military actions, and neither will you.  The nation state is imploding by it's own weight.  It's only an idea anyway.  If a civil war begins, it will be because the powers-that-be couldn't figure out how to stop, and thus began eating each other on the way down.  This is how all empires have failed throughout history, but unlike those in the past, the Internet has enabled new forms of self-organizations so that a new nation state need not rise up from the ashes of the old one.  What comes next isn't going to be entirely unfamiliar to you, but nor is it going to be something you would have predicted.  The Internet enables not just vast, rapid and cheap communications (a necessary element to any social order on the scale of a nation-state) but also Bitcoin.  Bitcoin thus enables the phyle, an entirely novel form of civil order.  The near term is likely to be a bit scary for you, but assuming that you don't lose your mind (or your life) in the meantime; the long view will be grander than you seem capable of imagining.

[Goldenmaw]

I beg your pardon, bold visionary.  I am humbled by your mighty condescension and now realize the error of my ways.  I should not have imagined this icky power structure to be the only lasting ideal mankind could aspire to.  In the future I will ask your permission before trying to think.  May I fetch you a cold beverage, or perhaps your favorite Isaac Asimov novel?

Sarcasm finished.  Time to throw down the gauntlet.  You're not going to live to see that glorious future, smartass.  Our nerdy imaginings aren't going to be how the average human being operates for a few more generations, barring space alien intervention.  You disagree?  Fine.  We'll reconvene in 2090 and discuss how things went.  Until then, cork it.

[MoonShadow]

Until then, cork it.

Same to you, Corky.

[Goldenmaw]

We've got ourselves one hell of a cease-fire.

[MoonShadow]

We've got ourselves one hell of a cease-fire.

I find myself laughing even more at the meaning of your handle.

[Goldenmaw]

Oh, crap!  Betrayed by my own subconscious, again.

[phonomancer]

Oh, crap!  Betrayed by my own subconscious, again.

Fun debate guys, nice to watch.

I sense a generation gap. 

Myself, I sit right in between the two of you. 

Personally, I'd like to see some tactical thinking on how to mainstream BTC and how to get some anchors in the political/legal system to keep the wolves at bay at least for a while.  Right now, time is on our side and power is on theirs.

[greenfloyd]

...black transactions ... black market...

Why's it gotta be "black"?

Because I'm not sure what's really going on here I don't think I'm in any position to judge what is or isn't "feasible."

I think that will a little bit of due diligence, you know, reading up on Bitcoin some more, reading the thread, perusing Silk Road, you'll find yourself in a better position to contribute to the thread with useful suggestions and debate. I write this entirely without snark in the hopes of driving the point that the people running Silk Road have no power to exclude anyone. Its operators can try to ban certain products, but they will just show up under different names. As we know (and for those who hadn't, you're welcome), in the absence of an adult services section, you need to proof-read for accidental innuendos in your Craigslist post, lest you encounter a large woman with a strap-on instead of the pegboard you expected. Furthermore, the folks at Silk Road can't stop those running a Silk Road clone from catering to people wishing to trade in whatever products the original had banned.

If it's a hoax, it's beautiful.  On the other hand if it is not a hoax...

Let's just assume that it's not a hoax.

...then I believe it becomes part of the problem. Certainly nothing like cartels and gangs, yet still operating as if it, Silk Road, were above the law.  My aim has always been to change the law and make things better for everybody, except of course those who get fat off the way the law is today.

Everyone, raise your hand if you broke the law today. Working within the bounds of the law will only get us so far, so fast. Is the thought of breaking the system, or letting it break itself, so bad? Se cayó.

Or was she pushed?

I have given it some thought, about suggestions on handling illegal drug transactions in an ethical and moral fashion sans rule of law.  I conclude that SR or anyone else for that matter, should follow standard harm-reduction principles as much as possible. 

I think the first priority should be to design and implement an age-verify system.  An unrelated 3rd party could be contracted to, given a name, date and place of birth, use public records to verify the buyer's age then return a special key to the buyer.  The seller can then request that key as needed, and use it in a query on the 3rd party's server to return an accept or reject directive.

I guess it could not be mandatory, but perhaps it could be rewarded by positive reputation points for sellers who require age-verify.  I suppose too that once age-verify has been established true, the same seller and buyer would not need to repeat the process so it would only impact the first transaction.

Sellers or SR or both should make the following absolutely clear to all buyers of hard drugs:

• The safest drug use is no use.
• Never take a drug you do not completely understand.
• Do not inject or consume any narcotic alone, if possible have a non-user by your side.
• Never mix alcohol use and narcotics.
• Always use a new, sterile rig when injecting.
• Follow appropriate cleaning (sterile pads) of the injection site prior to injection.
• If you feel you need help dealing with drug addiction call this help line (research a service)

There are additional guidelines that would be more appropriate for other substances that should also be considered.  And of course any manufacturers and pharmaceutical information, instructions, pamphlets, or packing material should be included in every order of this sort.

[Goldenmaw]

Fun debate guys, nice to watch.

Thanks.  I enjoyed it.  There are a lot of extremely intelligent people here, and that includes the entire roster of people who have been my volcanic opposition during this.  Conflict of ideologies, I suppose.

As for the debate itself, this is only beginning.  Bitcoin is developing an image problem, and I truly believe that is the most dangerous possible problem for it right now.  If it isn't adopted (regardless of why), and used by the general populace for trade of everyday goods and services, I cannot imagine how it is to retain its value in the long run.  I will say that if it is driven underground as a solely black market currency, I'm simply going to get off the boat.  And god help the miners - they'll be so easy to catch if the USA decides to allocate its resources to the punishment of the Bitcoin end-user.

[Slushpuppy]

Hey guys I made an account on silk road ten days ago and as of three days ago something really weird happens. I get to the main page, type username and password in, press "go" the page then redirects me to the same page (like if I had pressed "refresh") and I am not logged in. I have tried making a new account, and then when I type that in, it does the same thing. Ive turned off guiminer, bitcoin and utorrent, did not help. three days ago I could access my profile, and looking at the forums no one else is having this problem. All avenues for help on this matter require me to be logged in (fffffffuuuuuuuuu!) can someone shed some light on what is happening?

[greenfloyd]

Fun debate guys, nice to watch.

Thanks.  I enjoyed it.  There are a lot of extremely intelligent people here, and that includes the entire roster of people who have been my volcanic opposition during this.  Conflict of ideologies, I suppose.

As for the debate itself, this is only beginning.  Bitcoin is developing an image problem, and I truly believe that is the most dangerous possible problem for it right now.  If it isn't adopted (regardless of why), and used by the general populace for trade of everyday goods and services, I cannot imagine how it is to retain its value in the long run.  I will say that if it is driven underground as a solely black market currency, I'm simply going to get off the boat.  And god help the miners - they'll be so easy to catch if the USA decides to allocate its resources to the punishment of the Bitcoin end-user.

You win!  You got message 420, I hope you're happy now...

This has been the most intelligent and passionate discussion I've been involved in since last year's Gulf oil disaster at PeakOil dot com.  It's amazing what happens when a bunch of people get focused.

I think you make a valid point, Bitcoin and especially Silk Road are "developing an image problem".  I don't know what Bitcoin can do in regrds its relationship to SR, maybe doing nothing is the best thing right now.  Clearly the public focus is on SR.  I laid out a few ideas below on some things I think SR sellers should be doing with hard drug transactions.  And while it's certainly not the definitive last-word I do beleive these kinds of ideas (known as harm reduction) can help mitigate that image thingy.  Implementing harm reduction into its business model is not only the right thing to do, it also gives SR more credibility as a viable alternative to the street.

[FatherMcGruder]

Or was she pushed?

Mrs. White, in the library, with the keyboard, or something.

I have given it some thought, about suggestions on handling illegal drug transactions in an ethical and moral fashion sans rule of law.  I conclude that SR or anyone else for that matter, should follow standard harm-reduction principles as much as possible. 

I think the first priority should be to design and implement an age-verify system.  An unrelated 3rd party could be contracted to, given a name, date and place of birth, use public records to verify the buyer's age then return a special key to the buyer.  The seller can then request that key as needed, and use it in a query on the 3rd party's server to return an accept or reject directive.

I guess it could not be mandatory, but perhaps it could be rewarded by positive reputation points for sellers who require age-verify.  I suppose too that once age-verify has been established true, the same seller and buyer would not need to repeat the process so it would only impact the first transaction.

I suppose that might work sans law, but sans law, the Silk Road model wouldn't serve any purpose. Furthermore, the law precludes any such age verification because of the risks involved in conducting such extralegal transactions.

Sellers or SR or both should make the following absolutely clear to all buyers of hard drugs:

• The safest drug use is no use.
• Never take a drug you do not completely understand.
• Do not inject or consume any narcotic alone, if possible have a non-user by your side.
• Never mix alcohol use and narcotics.
• Always use a new, sterile rig when injecting.
• Follow appropriate cleaning (sterile pads) of the injection site prior to injection.
• If you feel you need help dealing with drug addiction call this help line (research a service)

There are additional guidelines that would be more appropriate for other substances that should also be considered.  And of course any manufacturers and pharmaceutical information, instructions, pamphlets, or packing material should be included in every order of this sort.

These are reasonable suggestions, but, beyond general advice like set and setting, I think Silk Road could better serve its users by referring them to authoritative sources like Erowid rather than duplicating the information and trying to keep it up to date. No need to run the risk of falling behind.