rpietila Wall Observer - the Quality TA Thread ;)

[cAPSLOCK]

Are you saying you are truly interested in selling 100btc puts?

Yes, it makes sense in my situation. I am not keen on sending lots of money to exchanges to increase the position (lost some on Gox), but would like to increase it (or pocket the premium if it never goes that low).

TL;DR: You are just panicking. Sell all your bitcoins to me.

The reason this is tempting is exactly because of the panicking.  I see it as a possible way that you would help me add to my position without using an exchange.

I think if we do not move up sharply and soon the next support level should be around 325, and I doubt even that holds long.  And I don't see why we would start moving up yet.  Along with bearish sentiment rising we have some sick fundamental issues (china, china, china).

[1715056801]

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[rpietila]

The reason this is tempting is exactly because of the panicking.  I see it as a possible way that you would help me add to my position without using an exchange.

I think if we do not move up sharply and soon the next support level should be around 325, and I doubt even that holds long.  And I don't see why we would start moving up yet.  Along with bearish sentiment rising we have some sick fundamental issues (china, china, china).

If you anticipate a violent move down OR quick turnaround (but don't know which one), it makes sense for you to buy puts.

[smoothie]

It bugs me that I was too early with the final capitulation last week. Now all the signs are the more prevalent. Hitting a low repeatedly in subsequent days without one massive flashcrash with massive volume was a typical for the last one. (Cf. now).

The bottom was 62% of the last stable level (note: fibonacci ratio). If the stability level this time is 640, the bottom would be seen at about 400. Indeed, next week of oscillation full of fear between 400-480 would be perfect for shaking out every single remaining weak hand and pave the way for continued gains (last time chart shown for reference  ):
1 month = +50%
2 months = +100%
3 months = +100%
4 months = +400%
5 months = +1000%.

Looks like we are getting close to a "bottom".

Let the weak hands sell.

[cAPSLOCK]

The reason this is tempting is exactly because of the panicking.  I see it as a possible way that you would help me add to my position without using an exchange.

I think if we do not move up sharply and soon the next support level should be around 325, and I doubt even that holds long.  And I don't see why we would start moving up yet.  Along with bearish sentiment rising we have some sick fundamental issues (china, china, china).

If you anticipate a violent move down OR quick turnaround (but don't know which one), it makes sense for you to buy puts.

Well...  $400US puts @ bitstamp(?) with what expiry date?

I sent a PM by the way...

[foody]

Because price is now low, people are making this supposed loss of fungibility a big issue, as if it was the end of everything. We have been dealing with this kind of legislation in the PM industry for decades and it is not a big deal. It is not the reason why PM's are not practical to be used as money.

Sure you have to pay taxes on gains, but the fact that you have gains should be the interesting thing here. Even if there was a blockchain-level registration of all your bitcoins, and requirement to keep track of the cost basis of every satoshi, you would not even notice given proper software. This ruling is the beginning of all good things bitcoin, except the loss of anonymity which wasn't there to begin with.

Besides I am sick with this US-centricism. There are 220 other legislations out there to choose from if you don't like the ruling. In my opinion it was very reasonable and I can only dream of 18% cgt rates here..

TL;DR: You are just panicking. Sell all your bitcoins to me.

I'm definitely not panicking. I've been buying for the last few days because even though it seems TA is based off a disintegrating perspective - I'm gambling it will continue for now. Personally I think the tax issue is incredibly inflated. My main concern is continuing collapse. A lot of recent adopters are disillusioned from their [insane] expectations. What I'm really interested in is a ~definitive outlook that accounts for this.

Once the majority of adopters realize this isn't a new economic paradigm (at least for common purposes), what will the market look like? How much will adoption decrease if at all? I could definitely be overestimating the amount of speculative holders/opportunistic futurists but I'm assuming many recent btc users have adopted on false pretenses. Most people probably don't recognize the systems utility outside of personal gain, if they're a futurist then maybe they saw it's utility in terms of an alternative medium of exchange. How many people here are hodling due to tech prospects...

[AnonyMint]

(8 ) Every day we go lower, there has to be new sellers selling a growing number of coins to satisfy even stagnant demand. I would not bet it happening indefinitely.

You are ignoring my point about marginal supply and demand sets price.

We can't use fundamental demand arguments during a speculative move.

The lower the price goes, the more panic selling among those who bought at higher nosebleed levels during the 2013 bubble.

At what price did the huge surge in new buyers come last year? Looking at a volume x price chart from 2013 should tell us where the bottom should be.

Because price is now low, people are making this supposed loss of fungibility a big issue, as if it was the end of everything. We have been dealing with this kind of legislation in the PM industry for decades and it is not a big deal. It is not the reason why PM's are not practical to be used as money.

Sure you have to pay taxes on gains, but the fact that you have gains should be the interesting thing here. Even if there was a blockchain-level registration of all your bitcoins, and requirement to keep track of the cost basis of every satoshi, you would not even notice given proper software. This ruling is the beginning of all good things bitcoin, except the loss of anonymity which wasn't there to begin with.

Besides I am sick with this US-centricism. There are 220 other legislations out there to choose from if you don't like the ruling. In my opinion it was very reasonable and I can only dream of 18% cgt rates here..

You ignore and did not address the point.

Also all jurisdictions are classifying Bitcoin as a commodity or property that is subject to capital gains tax. (It is irrelevant to my point, but Obama and EU are planning to raise taxes to 70%).

Bitcoin will continue to have value because it is an ignorance bubble among white male fanatics. It will also have value because it is the liquid backbone of exchange for an ecosystem that will solve the above problem with altcoins that are superior to Bitcoin. Bitcoin will also grow in value because it is the NWO coin and the governments are going to be promoting it and the institutional players will chime in with government compatible offchain services that eventually get the blessing from the government and exclusions to tax hurdles in order to increase mass adoption. At that point, Bitcoin will be effectively a fiat system. Any way, Bitcoin is already controlled by a few people.

Bottom line is Bitcoin will bottom and then the price will go up again. It is an investment but not a solution to what we wanted idealistically. But it is a necessary stepping stone.

do i think 9/11 was an inside job? yes. herp.
 
do i think there is a a super secret cabal in charge of the whole world. no.

the truth is likely far more mundane than the hollywood NWO scenario.

some powerful/rich guys sometimes do some really bad stuff to stay in charge/rich. its always been like that. just the same as there have always been other guys who think they are super genius for figuring that out. it's not 'breaking news'.

Those bad guys wielded widespread power to pull off what they did and get the entire world to change into a police state against terrorism, yet you attribute relative impotence to them.

Have you not seen the billboards for example in London urging citizens to report anything they see, because of the threat of terrorism. Have you not traveled and seen that nearly all public venues (malls, airports, etc) have security guards that have hissy fits if they see even a hang bag laying unattended.

Or I guess that global coordination was just a random outcome.  

You ignore the overt efforts of for example David Rockefeller who travels the globe working on the global coodination, such as his Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Bilderberg group. These are all real institutions for global coodination.

You ignore that corporations and media all over the world push this junk science of man-made global warming. Just a random, uncoordinated outcome eh?  

Can you tell me how fires and debris could bring the Eiffel tower down vertically in free fall entirely with not any portion standing nor falling off center?

Maybe this

Stay away from that thermonuclear idea. That is outlandish and planted to make us look like kooks.

The best hypothesis I've seen thus far is the buildings were brought down with detonated Thermite cutting charges planted on the steel beams. There is much evidence of this, in spite of the steel was quickly shipped to China to be melted to destroy the evidence. The Thermite (which melts steel) is why it burned hot for weeks as can be seen by aerial IR photography. The melted angle cuts can even be seen on photos of beams from the rubble.

One problem I have with the Thermite hypothesis is that how could timing of the cuts be so tightly coordinated to obtain the free fall implosion onto self. Perhaps the Thermite was combined with traditional demolition charges. I haven't followed the detailed developments much in many years because the evidence is mostly destroyed and my understanding is satisfied based on other analysis that the government's story was impossible. Knowing we've been lied to and that it required some form of demolition is sufficient to prod me into the activities I am doing now to defeat this slide into totalitarianism.

[foody]

(8 ) Every day we go lower, there has to be new sellers selling a growing number of coins to satisfy even stagnant demand. I would not bet it happening indefinitely.

You are ignoring my point about marginal supply and demand sets price.

We can't use fundamental demand arguments during a speculative move.

The lower the price goes, the more panic selling among those who bought at higher nosebleed levels during the 2013 bubble.

At what price did the huge surge in new buyers come last year? Looking at a volume x price chart from 2013 should tell us where the bottom should be.

Because price is now low, people are making this supposed loss of fungibility a big issue, as if it was the end of everything. We have been dealing with this kind of legislation in the PM industry for decades and it is not a big deal. It is not the reason why PM's are not practical to be used as money.

Sure you have to pay taxes on gains, but the fact that you have gains should be the interesting thing here. Even if there was a blockchain-level registration of all your bitcoins, and requirement to keep track of the cost basis of every satoshi, you would not even notice given proper software. This ruling is the beginning of all good things bitcoin, except the loss of anonymity which wasn't there to begin with.

Besides I am sick with this US-centricism. There are 220 other legislations out there to choose from if you don't like the ruling. In my opinion it was very reasonable and I can only dream of 18% cgt rates here..

You ignore and did not address the point.

Bitcoin will continue to have value because it is an ignorance bubble among white male fanatics. It will also have value because it is the liquid backbone of exchange for an ecosystem that will solve the above problem with altcoins that are superior to Bitcoin. Bitcoin will also grow in value because it is the NWO coin and the governments are going to be promoting it and the institutional players will chime in with government compatible offchain services that eventually get the blessing from the government and exclusions to tax hurdles in order to increase mass adoption. At that point, Bitcoin will be effectively a fiat system. Any way, Bitcoin is already controlled by a few people.

Bottom line is Bitcoin will bottom and then the price will go up again. It is an investment but not a solution to what we wanted idealistically. But it is a necessary stepping stone.

do i think 9/11 was an inside job? yes. herp.
 
do i think there is a a super secret cabal in charge of the whole world. no.

the truth is likely far more mundane than the hollywood NWO scenario.

some powerful/rich guys sometimes do some really bad stuff to stay in charge/rich. its always been like that. just the same as there have always been other guys who think they are super genius for figuring that out. it's not 'breaking news'.

Those bad guys wielded widespread power to pull off what they did and get the entire world to change into a police state against terrorism, yet you attribute relative impotence to them.

Have you not seen the billboards for example in London urging citizens to report anything they see, because of the threat of terrorism. Have you not traveled and seen that nearly all public venues (malls, airports, etc) have security guards that have hissy fits if they see even a hang bag laying unattended.

Or I guess that global coordination was just a random outcome.  

occam's razor is a cool tool

[Biodom]

(1) This is one requirement for a bottom, similarly as everybody saying "up" is a prerequisite for a top.
(2) I have developed a wonderful proof that this is not true, but sadly my time does not allow to elucidate.
(3) Actually it seems that ask sum is drying up and there is very much (15k) bids in 400-470. Anyway these are easily manipulated.
(4) As well as their coins. This is typical for a bottom.
(5) I don't believe there is any additional "drying up" left in China. If someone wants out, he is already out. If someone wants Bitcoin, he is in.
(6) It takes 12-24 months on average from hearing to acting. That's why the upside will be so explosive (like 2013/1-4 as a result of 2011)
(7) Yes, in the bottom the news reactions are bad no matter what happens.
(8 ) Every day we go lower, there has to be new sellers selling a growing number of coins to satisfy even stagnant demand. I would not bet it happening indefinitely.

RE point#8. Large and growing mining farms sell ALL of their output. For example, KnC farm sells at least ~10%  of all mined coins daily or $0.5 mil daily. There might be more doing exactly the same.

[RoadStress]

(8 ) Every day we go lower, there has to be new sellers selling a growing number of coins to satisfy even stagnant demand. I would not bet it happening indefinitely.

You are ignoring my point about marginal supply and demand sets price.

We can't use fundamental demand arguments during a speculative move.

The lower the price goes, the more panic selling among those who bought at higher nosebleed levels during the 2013 bubble.

At what price did the huge surge in new buyers come last year? Looking at a volume x price chart from 2013 should tell us where the bottom should be.

I don't believe that the ones that bought at higher levels will sell bigger as the price goes lower. One argument would be that i think the most that bought at higher levels can afford to wait at least a few months and weren't so dependent on a very quick profit.

[AnonyMint]

(8 ) Every day we go lower, there has to be new sellers selling a growing number of coins to satisfy even stagnant demand. I would not bet it happening indefinitely.

You are ignoring my point about marginal supply and demand sets price.

We can't use fundamental demand arguments during a speculative move.

The lower the price goes, the more panic selling among those who bought at higher nosebleed levels during the 2013 bubble.

At what price did the huge surge in new buyers come last year? Looking at a volume x price chart from 2013 should tell us where the bottom should be.

I don't believe that the ones that bought at higher levels will sell bigger as the price goes lower. One argument would be that i think the most that bought at higher levels can afford to wait at least a few months and weren't so dependent on a very quick profit.

There are percentages (not all) who overextended or lose confidence. This is human psychology in all markets.

Also there are those who think they can get back in at a lower price and lower their average basis. Like playing chicken, who will blink first and last.

[sgbett]

do i think 9/11 was an inside job? yes. herp.
 
do i think there is a a super secret cabal in charge of the whole world. no.

the truth is likely far more mundane than the hollywood NWO scenario.

some powerful/rich guys sometimes do some really bad stuff to stay in charge/rich. its always been like that. just the same as there have always been other guys who think they are super genius for figuring that out. it's not 'breaking news'.

Those bad guys wielded widespread power to pull off what they did and get the entire world to change into a police state against terrorism, yet you attribute relative impotence to them.

I didn't say they were impotent. They are rich and powerful, ergo they can do some pretty serious shit. What I'm arguing specifically is there isn't a glitzy NWO. There is more likely just a bunch of disperate individuals, groups. I don't think that the perpetrators of each atrocity are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Have you not seen the billboards for example in London urging citizens to report anything they see, because of the threat of terrorism. Have you not traveled and seen that nearly all public venues (malls, airports, etc) have security guards that have hissy fits if they see even a hang bag laying unattended.

Or I guess that global coordination was just a random outcome.  

You ignore the overt efforts of for example David Rockefeller who travels the globe working on the global coodination, such as his Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Bilderberg group. These are all real institutions for global coodination.

You ignore that corporations and media all over the world push this junk science of man-made global warming. Just a random, uncoordinated outcome eh?  

My eyes are open to these things, I understand your (albeit somewhat sensational) point about people being slaves to the system. I just don't feel like I am so prescient as to able to draw such unwavering conclusions. I'm not sure knowing the absolute truth of it helps. It's more important to me to just know that this stuff goes on, so that I can try to and play the hand I've been dealt the best I can.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps there is one family to rule them all, but it just seems a little improbable to me. This does not mean I don't agree that bad people are doing bad stuff everywhere.

[AnonyMint]

sgbett, perhaps we may find we agree more than we both realized on our initial exchange.

I don't view this as one aristocratic lineage in control. There is much competition and failure amongst those who vie to capture the power vacuum of democracy. And they may fail entirely during epochs, e.g. the Dark Age returned it to feudalism so warlords had more power than Kings.

Rather I think the NWO is the natural evolutionary outcome of human desire for collective governance. This power vacuum of democracy forces centralization of power.

I covered this process in more detail (made an analogy to organisms in a Petri dish) in my essay which CoinCube referred to in his Economic Devastation thread:

Understand Everything Fundamentally

In any case, this is why I am trying to eliminate (or reduce is more realistic) the ability of society to tax. I think that is the only way to break free from that power vacuum and arrive at a society based on free market competition.

There is much fear and misunderstanding from readers who think this would be worse. For example they conflate crony capitalism with the free market, etc..

This is all covered in great detail in my past writings on this forum. And I don't have time to repeat the discussion again.

Hope that helps our misunderstanding and apologies for losing my cuth upthread.

I am hoping CoinCube will write a book on all this, because I am obviously not patient and articulate enough to prevent misunderstandings.

P.S. perhaps you can detect from my writings today, I am not feeling ill today. Happy productive day and I can concentrate.


Add: I forgot to insert this motivation in one of my posts today. If we become wealthy, we can avoid the terrorism tsuris when we travel. A free market is developing to serve us.

[AnonyMint]

Question: Will it be a U or V bottom, i.e. will the bottom be there only for a very short duration or will it slowly rise off the bottom?

What did it do last time?

[Trolololo]

Stay away from that thermonuclear idea. That is outlandish and planted to make us look like kooks.

The best hypothesis I've seen thus far is the buildings were brought down with detonated Thermite cutting charges planted on the steel beams. There is much evidence of this, in spite of the steel was quickly shipped to China to be melted to destroy the evidence. The Thermite (which melts steel) is why it burned hot for weeks as can be seen by aerial IR photography. The melted angle cuts can even be seen on photos of beams from the rubble.

One problem I have with the Thermite hypothesis is that how could timing of the cuts be so tightly coordinated to obtain the free fall implosion onto self. Perhaps the Thermite was combined with traditional demolition charges. I haven't followed the detailed developments much in many years because the evidence is mostly destroyed and my understanding is satisfied based on other analysis that the government's story was impossible. Knowing we've been lied to and that it required some form of demolition is sufficient to prod me into the activities I am doing now to defeat this slide into totalitarianism.

Thermite for the upper floors. Nukes for the lower floors and basement.

Last threads in Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Economics > Speculation (Moderator: Blitz­) >


- $442 -> $0, Bitcoin ponzi bubble brusted, you lost your money!

- Sentiment incredibly bearish

- Prepare for Bitcoin $266 Retest

- Bitcoin down to $483 ¿!?

- Denial is fading, fear is approaching

- URGENT, Bitcoin is on the verge of collapse !!!

The forums activity in general is pretty dead actually, a lot of new people lost money i assume (bought at the $1000) so they observe instead of participate. New memberships are also low and i don't see old timers as i used to, it does feel kinda deserted lol.

Exactly as it should be. Now we are finally there.

I am interested in any kind of deal which effectively means that you will have insurance that your BTC can be sold for $400 regardless of the numbers in any exchange. (It is called "buying a put option"). BTC100 minimum. PM.

Time to buy more BTCs.
I'm amazed of your timing precision, Risto. We are now just where you have been saying from January:

This is an excellent setup for the "final capitulation", the bottom of which can be anywhere significantly below the current price of $664 and the exponential trend which is today at $648. Around $400 is my guess. I now put the chances of going lower at above 50%. Long time ago I played with the possible dates and found that Feb 14 is a good candidate for being the low point. Any time until end of March is possible though.

[Trolololo]

Stay away from that thermonuclear idea. That is outlandish and planted to make us look like kooks.

The best hypothesis I've seen thus far is the buildings were brought down with detonated Thermite cutting charges planted on the steel beams. There is much evidence of this, in spite of the steel was quickly shipped to China to be melted to destroy the evidence. The Thermite (which melts steel) is why it burned hot for weeks as can be seen by aerial IR photography. The melted angle cuts can even be seen on photos of beams from the rubble.

One problem I have with the Thermite hypothesis is that how could timing of the cuts be so tightly coordinated to obtain the free fall implosion onto self. Perhaps the Thermite was combined with traditional demolition charges. I haven't followed the detailed developments much in many years because the evidence is mostly destroyed and my understanding is satisfied based on other analysis that the government's story was impossible. Knowing we've been lied to and that it required some form of demolition is sufficient to prod me into the activities I am doing now to defeat this slide into totalitarianism.

Thermite for the upper floors.
Underground nuke for the lower floors and basement.

Last threads in Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Economics > Speculation (Moderator: Blitz­) >


- $442 -> $0, Bitcoin ponzi bubble brusted, you lost your money!

- Sentiment incredibly bearish

- Prepare for Bitcoin $266 Retest

- Bitcoin down to $483 ¿!?

- Denial is fading, fear is approaching

- URGENT, Bitcoin is on the verge of collapse !!!

The forums activity in general is pretty dead actually, a lot of new people lost money i assume (bought at the $1000) so they observe instead of participate. New memberships are also low and i don't see old timers as i used to, it does feel kinda deserted lol.

Exactly as it should be. Now we are finally there.

I am interested in any kind of deal which effectively means that you will have insurance that your BTC can be sold for $400 regardless of the numbers in any exchange. (It is called "buying a put option"). BTC100 minimum. PM.

Time to buy more BTCs.
I'm amazed of your timing precision, Risto. We are now just where you have been saying from January:

This is an excellent setup for the "final capitulation", the bottom of which can be anywhere significantly below the current price of $664 and the exponential trend which is today at $648. Around $400 is my guess. I now put the chances of going lower at above 50%. Long time ago I played with the possible dates and found that Feb 14 is a good candidate for being the low point. Any time until end of March is possible though.

[marvinrouge]

On the forum the bearish topics can tell we are close to the bottom

but... WHERE is the volume


The TA screams 400-410 with a nice triple bottom, so everyone is ready to buy at this level...
BUT you know the market always go in the worst direction.


So I see 3 options :
- we already passed the bottom (but the volume???)
- after this little bull trap, another test of 420s-430s, and here we go
- between 350 and 390 (big volume : lot of people panicking because <400)


difficult to predict 

[sgbett]

sgbett, perhaps we may find we agree more than we both realized on our initial exchange.

I don't view this as one aristocratic lineage in control. There is much competition and failure amongst those who vie to capture the power vacuum of democracy. And they may fail entirely during epochs, e.g. the Dark Age returned it to feudalism so warlords had more power than Kings.

Rather I think the NWO is the natural evolutionary outcome of human desire for collective governance. This power vacuum of democracy forces centralization of power.

I covered this process in more detail (made an analogy to organisms in a Petri dish) in my essay which CoinCube referred to in his Economic Devastation thread:

Understand Everything Fundamentally

In any case, this is why I am trying to eliminate (or reduce is more realistic) the ability of society to tax. I think that is the only way to break free from that power vacuum and arrive at a society based on free market competition.

There is much fear and misunderstanding from readers who think this would be worse. For example they conflate crony capitalism with the free market, etc..

This is all covered in great detail in my past writings on this forum. And I don't have time to repeat the discussion again.

Hope that helps our misunderstanding and apologies for losing my cuth upthread.

I am hoping CoinCube will write a book on all this, because I am obviously not patient and articulate enough to prevent misunderstandings.

P.S. perhaps you can detect from my writings today, I am not feeling ill today. Happy productive day and I can concentrate.


Add: I forgot to insert this motivation in one of my posts today. If we become wealthy, we can avoid the terrorism tsuris when we travel. A free market is developing to serve us.

I lose my shit sometimes too. I hope if people call me out I can be so level headed.

I understand the frustration with those who can't see the 'prison'. I think one of the contributory factors to people desiring to be governed, is that it allows you to absolve yourself of personal responsibility. Blame the government! It's their fault I am poor! I see this is being similar to how people use religion as a means of accepting the world. God's will can help you deal with a lot of crap, all you need is faith. Two sides of the same coin, essentially being able to ascribe any action to a higher power, and thus not have to face cold hard reality.

I have a bit of an anti authoritarian bent. This can lead me to thinking all authority is corrupt to the core though, and so I have to be careful not to be seduced by that. I need to try and temper that view and accept that some is good some is bad. The people that (mis)wield the power are the ones to blame, not the concept of power, and hierarchy itself. Maybe. I dunno.

I'm not against religion, nor am I against people who wish to remain comfortably numb, jacked into the matrix. I'm one of those not very fashionable libertarian sorts, people should be free to do whatever they wanna do type stuff. I don't think that runs contrary to your ideas of a truly free market based society. Indeed as I understand it the concept of property is a pretty big deal, ownership of self etc and by extension the freedom to own other things etc

I'm probably rambling a bit now, its late. As for BTC, this better be the bottom, cos my prediction of a few weeks ago is looking crapper by the minute

[AnonyMint]

sgbett I agree entirely. We have the same philosophy. The masses should be free to enslave themselves. I want a way we can opt-out (and opt-in to the free market) as an alternative option of joining the power trippers who capture the authority.

My frustration should be only when I think discussion has turned from debate of falsifiable statements into reputation battles. I prefer not to entirely opt-out of all discussion.

I agree with you when people use religion to deny reality. Religion can also be a form of mind control, i.e. propaganda. However you might not agree with the following. The Bible also seems to be all about respecting property rights and avoidance of idoling collectives. Even Jesus said don't pray in church rather in your closet (Matthew 6:5). It seems the problem is people conflating wisdom and religion. The Bible is about the former in my opinion and speaks against religion, but many or most interpret it other ways, e.g. as a crusade to browbeat and look down on others. And atheists are so frustrated with that, they've closed their mind to the wisdom therein. Both ridicule each other, but the atheists I think do it with more venom lately (e.g. "is Dumbo the Flying Elephant your creator"), although let's not forget the brutality of the Inquisition. I have no problem with atheists nor Christians (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, etc), for as long as they don't stomp on diversity nor be overly judgmental. Jesus said he hung out with the sinners because that is where the most benefit could be attained. There is no perfect. We are all different so the ecosystem can anneal to diverse scenarios which are ongoing simultaneously.

And isn't it neat that we are all different. Always something new to meet and experience.

(I don't want to get into the woman's rights issues that revolve around Muslims, etc, as it is more complex discussion that I don't have time for right now. Just suffice it to say I am all for both men and woman being happy and excelling, but science and actual measured performance also informs us that the genders are not equally suited to all the same things and remember I want both genders to be happy and excel, not fail because we expect them to be the same. There is much discussion of this here, such as how feminism is really a way to be economically privileged, i.e. towards totalitarianism.)

[sgbett]

sgbett I agree entirely. We have the same philosophy. The masses should be free to enslave themselves. I want a way we can opt-out (and opt-in to the free market) as an alternative option of joining the power trippers who capture the authority.

My frustration should be only when I think discussion has turned from debate of falsifiable statements into reputation battles. I prefer not to entirely opt-out of all discussion.

I agree with you when people use religion to deny reality. Religion can also be a form of mind control, i.e. propaganda. However you might not agree with the following. The Bible also seems to be all about respecting property rights and avoiding idoling collectives. Even Jesus said don't pray in church rather in your closet (Matthew 6:5). It seems the problem is people conflating wisdom and religion. The Bible is about the former in my opinion and speaks against religion, but many or most interpret it other ways, e.g. as a crusade to browbeat and look down on others. And atheists are so frustrated with that, they've closed their mind to the wisdom therein. I have no problem with atheists nor Christians, for as long as they don't stomp on diversity nor be overly judgmental. Jesus said he hung out with the sinners because that is where the most benefit could be attained. There is no perfect. We are all different so the ecosystem can anneal to diverse scenarios which are ongoing simultaneously.

And isn't it neat that we are all different. Always something new to meet and experience.

Its even later, and I'm still not in bed. I like what the bible says about a lot of stuff, its unfortunate that the church has had 2000 years to co-opt its message to their own ends I generalise though. I'm sure that, as ever, it's the few spoiling it for the many.

I think you are probably right there are plenty who miss the message of christianity as a result of them being so determined not to be a christian. That's a shame, because its not a terrible springboard to from which to develop a good morale foundation. With a few tweaks here and there to bring it into the 20th century!

[chessnut]

Its even later, and I'm still not in bed. I like what the bible says about a lot of stuff, its unfortunate that the church has had 2000 years to co-opt its message to their own ends I generalise though. I'm sure that, as ever, it's the few spoiling it for the many.

I think you are probably right there are plenty who miss the message of christianity as a result of them being so determined not to be a christian. That's a shame, because its not a terrible springboard to from which to develop a good morale foundation. With a few tweaks here and there to bring it into the 20th century!

Im first to admit that there is wisdom in the Bible. we can all learn from it (and we could alternatively teach our-selves) but there is no way you will have me believe anything that would define me as a christian. I simply don't have a choice, because I have seen with my own eyes since I was young.