[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[toknormal]

Fun-tastic Peter Todd insights on the politics of diversifying the bitcoin network: (Talks about anonymity issues as well - see from 4:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfovKFvnqXk

[Sub-Ether]

The two things I'm losing sleep over right now (and neither of them are recycled nonsense about naming issues).

[1] - are sidechains going to be huge and solve all problems for bitcoin or aren't they ?

[/url]

Are the 2 way peg frozen transactions staggered in the middle of the 2 chains (kind of like an equivalent of transaction locking) perhaps without the speed of the masternodes?
How are they staggered, is it a case of updating the bitcoin blockchain, if so this must be slow, (only other option is memory pool?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pyVvq-vrrM
Greg Maxwell say 10 transactions on testnet so thats = 100 minutes for producing a contract to be pegged to the sidechain, sounds clunky but I suppose thats why its on testnet.

Isn't this a case of using an old (but classic) car to tow another more modern car,
The second car is more advanced but uses the same basic internal combustion chamber(i.e.blockchain), although the towed car has some flashy features, its also tends to break down more due it's complexity and compatibility with the old classics' systems.

The reverse analogy, is the masternodes being the fast car towing the old clunky 2.5 minute blockchain along behind it.

How is it possible to solve either the scaling problem or slow block times with this kind of method, what am I missing  ?

[GhostPlayer]

[2] - w.t.f. game is the EU playing at with Greece ? Why do they seem increasingly more relaxed (apparently) about letting it blow up ? Have they

I had a thought the other day.

 At first, it would seem totally implausible, to let Greece default and quasi collapse the Euro project. Then, the election in Spain shocked everyone as small colligations à-lá Greece kicked the usual parties in the nuts.
 
 Now one ever expected Syriza to win, people made fun of them. Now, it's sending shockwaves all round.

 To avoid an infectious outbreak through the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain) and completely devastating Europe back into medieval times, I think the plan is now to use Greece as an example and let it implode. The "ripple" effect would cauterize public opinion an tame them into NOT permitting neoliberal anti-rotten-establishment governance to take podium.

 Since the milk has been spilt, make an example of it kind of thing...

I just hope Varoufakis manages to slap the ECB in the face with a salmon.

Fun fact; The average life expectancy of a FIAT currency is 27 years.... this blew my mind away.

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.pt/2011/08/average-life-expectancy-for-fiat.html

[Sub-Ether]

Fun fact; The average life expectancy of a FIAT currency is 27 years.... this blew my mind away....

Reserve currency lifespan

[GhostPlayer]

Fun fact; The average life expectancy of a FIAT currency is 27 years.... this blew my mind away....

Reserve currency lifespan

 Yup... reserve currencies seem to hold their own longer...

[Sub-Ether]

Yup... reserve currencies seem to hold their own longer...

My crystal ball forsees world reserve crypto currencies having a limited life span that bloggers will one day post in charts:

Year 2009 - 2018 :  Bitcoin
Year 2018 - 2111 :  Dash
Year 2111 -         :  Dash 3d

[qwizzie]

bitcoin going for a breakout : https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/bitfinex/btcusd

edit : lets see if the volume increases a lot too ... to support the breakout attempt

[Pint8alesius]

bitcoin going for a breakout : https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/bitfinex/btcusd

edit : lets see if the volume increases a lot too ... to support the breakout attempt

might be temporary, the buyers might get buyers remorse later on, and price goes opposite then

[qwizzie]

bitcoin going for a breakout : https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/bitfinex/btcusd

edit : lets see if the volume increases a lot too ... to support the breakout attempt

might be temporary, the buyers might get buyers remorse later on, and price goes opposite then

yeah it seems to be running out of steam now.

[toknormal]

Are the 2 way peg frozen transactions staggered in the middle of the 2 chains (kind of like an equivalent of transaction locking) perhaps without the speed of the masternodes?

It takes 3-4 days for a main-side chain transaction to complete - i.e. for enough proof of work etc to be done on both sides to secure the transfer.

However, once the sidechain has developed sufficient liquidity, another transaction called "Atomic swaps" can be supported where basically the system facilitates an exchange between 2 parties who park their equivalent holdings and have them swapped by the system. That's probably how most of the exchange would be done and possibly only takes a few minutes.

This isn't micro transaction stuff. This kind of plumbing infrastructure is intended for heavyweight movements I imagine. Lets say you want to move $2 billion dollars anonymously. Your not worried about a few minutes - or even a few days - here or there. You're worried about security.

How is it possible to solve either the scaling problem or slow block times with this kind of method, what am I missing  ?

Bitcoin will solve the scaling problem with payment channels. There comes a point where something gets big enough for economies of scale to justify entirely independent infrastructures layered on top of the blockchain. You would not want to use blockchains for day to day transactions anyway - in a mature financial infrastructure it isn't required for anything other than to record permanence.

It's becoming clearer that bitcoin is establishing itself and will become unassailable (at least, it looks like that to me). There's just far too much adoption, network effect, engineering effort and venture capital being poured into it for it to be knocked off the pedestal now. A bit like Microsoft in the 1980s when they took over DOS. It didn't matter what competitive innovation appeared, they always managed to do just enough to fend it off - even if it was just a boiler plated Windows 3.0 against the Mac's infinitely superior System 7.

At the same time, the advent of new technologies like sidechains is finally an admission that the bitcoin technology (as opposed to the bitcoin store of value) can't support all thats required of a future financial system based on cryptocurrency.

The real question for us therefore is what's the role of altcoins going to be ? Will the crypto-economy want genuinely independent blockchains which interface with bitcoin-reserve through freely floating, unpegged markets or will it consolidate only around alts which are in some way pegged - either mechanically or otherwise.

Right now, Dash is at one third of one percent of Bitcoin's marketcap - peanuts. If the former is the case, then that can surely only grow. If the latter is the case then there may not be much hope for any altcoin of any type other than a pure hedge.

My own view is that if bitcoin explodes, the top 10 alts (at least) will receive a massive boost - even if only as a hedge against catastrophic  issues appearing in Bitcoin / sidechain / treechain networks. Dash is superbly placed in this respect because not only does it have a unique approach to anonymity, it also has an absolutely distinct and powerful technology that continues to deliver new solutions to core cryptocurrency issues in the form of the masternode network. Whatever anyone says, it is delivering on all the original design goals.

Adoption is everything. If you can get a bit of adoption, you're less exposed to speculative volatility. Speculative value can only last so long anyway - can't it. Again, Dash has a big potential advantage here because it has more adoptability "out of the box" than bitcoin does, with its native anonymity and fast confirmation properties. This needs to be levered as much as possible to get some market penetration IMO.

[AizenSou]

bitcoin going for a breakout : https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/bitfinex/btcusd

edit : lets see if the volume increases a lot too ... to support the breakout attempt

And DASH always goes in the reverse direction with BTC, unfortunately

[toknormal]

I think the plan is now to use Greece as an example and let it implode. The "ripple" effect would cauterize public opinion an tame them into NOT permitting neoliberal anti-rotten-establishment governance to take podium.

 Since the milk has been spilt, make an example of it kind of thing...

Good theory !

I hadn't thought of that one. Maybe that is the plan - sh*t.

I just hope Varoufakis manages to slap the ECB in the face with a salmon.

LoL !  +1

[Sub-Ether]

Regarding [1], there's this quite fascinating interview with Peter Todd from a year ago who points out some alarming issues with sidechains:
...

Interesting, (almost can follow it,lol)
So the twinned chains are only as strong as the weakest link in the (side) chain, and in this case if the side chain was attacked it would invalidate all the transactions deep in the side chain due to the insufficient hashing power but would leave the bitcoin chain side safe.
I didn't realise the mastercoins were never hashed properly, merely only time stamped, kind of feels like cheap copies.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/elon-musks-spacex-asks-governments-permission-to-put-4000-internet-satellites-into-orbit-10314073.html

[aigeezer]

I've been musing about Dash's role and my sense that the trolling here has generally been just "kid stuff" so far - plentiful, but amateurish.

Meanwhile, in BTC-land, someone posted a thread today: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1089360.0

referring to a full-page bank-sponsored BTC-bashing ad in Sweden http://www.svd.se/det-kan-bli-bitcoins-dodsstot

(Any native Swedish speakers here to offer a proper translation?)

- and someone else posted a thread today with a cheeky title: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1089069.0

It turned out to be a fairly ordinary story about G7 nations meeting to decide how to get some of the BTC action into government coffers.
Nothing unexpected, but when I tried to click on the link, which is from an online newspaper in Venezuela, I got "server not found" until I set my VPN to a non-US location.

I'd welcome confirmation (or not) that others get a similar result: http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=2390219&CategoryId=12396

Assuming it was not some kind of fluke, I find it chilling.

Edit: Ignore the section above, I think. (Thanks, Tante). Tante reported downthread that she could get access, and I have since found that at least one of my VPN's US locations can get access, so the issue is not country-specific after all. Whew! I hope the rest of my post is still worth thinking about.

Anyway, my point is that very large forces appear to be pushing back now against BTC, and I imagine they would find Dash a much more threatening challenge than BTC if they thought about it.

Are we ready for something much more sophisticated than today's trolls? I mean "ready" technologically, psychologically, and so forth. Should we do anything differently in anticipation of nasty things to come?

Or is my tinfoil hat on too tight?

[coins101]

...
The real question for us therefore is what's the role of altcoins going to be ? Will the crypto-economy want genuinely independent blockchains which interface with bitcoin-reserve through freely floating, unpegged markets or will it consolidate only around alts which are in some way pegged - either mechanically or otherwise.
....
Adoption is everything. If you can get a bit of adoption, you're less exposed to speculative volatility. Speculative value can only last so long anyway - can't it. Again, Dash has a big potential advantage here because it has more adoptability "out of the box" than bitcoin does, with its native anonymity and fast confirmation properties. This needs to be levered as much as possible to get some market penetration IMO.

Spent quite a long time thinking about this last year.  After early investigations and trying to raise it a few times, I sort of gave up.

Side chains, merge mined with bitcoin, able to send bitcoins in and out of the block chain. Wow.

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-core-developers-bitcoin-side-chains/

It should be noted that no code exists for this and it won't be ready for 1+ years (if it ever even makes it into the protocol). They are talking about starting coding in 4-6 months.

So, after some research, they are suggesting:

1. Bitcoins already mined can be moved in and out of the 21m supply.
2. Coins moved out will be merge mined by existing bitcoin miners. The incentive is a transaction fee for carrying out the side chain mining to process double-spend checks and to enable xyz services
3. They suggest that a zerocash type of service could be side chained.
4. It's going to take a very long time to get this into bitcoin, but all the bitcoin developers have agreed that the project can, in principle, be implemented.
5. They are helping to fund bitcoin core development to move bitcoin faster towards what they need it to do to enable their project

[thelonecrouton]

BTC is going nowhere long term. PoW is a grotesquely inefficient farce, security theatre at best not actual security, it doesn't scale and it's horribly exclusionary. Any rally in BTC price will be short lived.

ETF's and other chicanery will just serve as another table at the casino for the high rollers to gamble at using the free chips their fiat central banking buddies crank out for them.

If BTC side chains manage to provide better utility than BTC, pegging them to BTC instead of letting market forces establish their price will kill them. Arbitrary value assignment leads inevitably to systemic distortion and collapse.

Or is my tinfoil hat on too tight?

I think your tinfoil hat is probably working fine, but BTC will continue to sabotage itself, at least with regard to its supposed goals. I don't think any government intervention will be needed, BTC zealots are all clambering into bed with the devil as fast as they can drop their pants. 

[coingun]

http://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/39re18/its_raining_dash/

[bluebit25]

Could this debate that's going on in the Bitcoin community be dividing the Bitcoin community and lead to another crypto becoming the leader?

Some say increase the Blocksize, if nothing happens we do our own version of Bitcoin? What is going on? Lots of talk, lots of arguments, big companies trying to influence the developers, more centralization? what is satoshi thinking about all this?

Mike Hearn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB9goUDBAR0

[TanteStefana2]

I've been musing about Dash's role and my sense that the trolling here has generally been just "kid stuff" so far - plentiful, but amateurish.

Meanwhile, in BTC-land, someone posted a thread today: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1089360.0

referring to a full-page bank-sponsored BTC-bashing ad in Sweden http://www.svd.se/det-kan-bli-bitcoins-dodsstot

(Any native Swedish speakers here to offer a proper translation?)

 - and someone else posted a thread today with a cheeky title: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1089069.0

It turned out to be a fairly ordinary story about G7 nations meeting to decide how to get some of the BTC action into government coffers.
Nothing unexpected, but when I tried to click on the link, which is from an online newspaper in Venezuela, I got "server not found" until I set my VPN to a non-US location.

I'd welcome confirmation (or not) that others get a similar result: http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=2390219&CategoryId=12396

Assuming it was not some kind of fluke, I find it chilling.

Anyway, my point is that very large forces appear to be pushing back now against BTC, and I imagine they would find Dash a much more threatening challenge than BTC if they thought about it.

Are we ready for something much more sophisticated than today's trolls? I mean "ready" technologically, psychologically, and so forth. Should we do anything differently in anticipation of nasty things to come?

Or is my tinfoil hat on too tight?

It came up for me   I thought you retired to the Philippines or something like that?  LOL.

Anyway, I gotta thank all of you who post these articles, because I don't have the time to research and you all keep me informed, I really love that about this community.  Even if I don't always post, I'm always looking

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Awww @TanteStefana, we love you too!