[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Brilliantrocket]

Trying to buy some BTC so I can increase my DRK stake. Hope the low prices hold for at least a couple more days.

[sharaba25]

We have started new campaign on www.Coins2TheMoon.com:
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When you login on header will be displayed "Today is a 0% Fee Day" or "Tomorrow is a 0% Fee Day".

Just to remind you: We have 72 Market Pairs and 22 Coins (DarkCoin is in the list) to Trade!

Please note that it does not applies to withdrawal fees.

Happy tradings

Sincerely,

C2M Team

[prospect]

If i should buy mining equipment for DRK.. is it still more profitable that buying? Lets say i fix four amd 290.. Any recomendations?

Regards
Prospect

Honestly I have no idea how that could be more profitable right now.. 4 290s right now has gotta set you back like 2000$ with the rest of the mining rig? 2000 $ is a bit over 3 BTC (3.18 right now). Let's say you have 3BTC just for round numbers sake and could get all of your DRK at 0.0015 BTC , that would mean 2000 DRK. How much time does it take for 4 of those cards to generate 2000 DRK ? By the time they are  generated will the difficulty have shot up 3 or 4 times ? Seems like a lot of trouble to go through. Now if those cards will be used for other coins after .. maybe it's worthwhile.

edit: just saw the post above mine - so with 4 cards you would get roughly 15 coins/day at current difficulty. which would be 2000/15 = 133 days or 4.44 months to mine 2000 DRK if the difficulty remains the same (which it won't). This coin hasn't even been out for 2 months yet , in 4.44 months who knows where it will be.

This is why I stopped mining Dark.

Right now almost every coin has a similar ROI, around 4 months, most scrypt might be worse, it depends what you mine, what you paid for the card and how much you pay for electricity.

So by this answer i guess it is better to invest BTC into DRK than buy mining equipment. Had such high hopes since this was a "no premine".

regards
prospect

[matthewh3]

Hey all Darkcoin miners I'm compiling a useful list of hardware hashrates if you want to add your hardware and setup to the lists - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=507171.msg5592143#msg5592143

[fusecavator]

Regarding mining, I don't think people are very cost-efficient in how they setup their mining rigs. There's too much "I want to get the best there is" mentality floating around which increases CAPEX cost significantly (for less OPEX of course - but IMO it's not worth it unless the electric costs are too high). The fact that people are buying brand new 280s/290s and pay thousands of dollars from the get go is a bit disturbing.

Clocked 5850s and 6870s are pulling like 1.3 MHs* and people can find used ones at around 100$ per card instead of 500-600$ for a brand new 290. Will a 290 give 5-6x performance? Nope.

* For some reason, series 58xx and 68xx seem to have a factor of 3.6-3.8x compared to Scrypt.

Not sure how you're getting 1.3mhs on a 5850, mine start being unstable and risk crashing the comp when trying to push over 1mhs, but if you want to ignore electric costs and look at just hardware costs, you also need to inclue motherboards, ram, etc, since you'll need twice as many pcie slots to get the same hash power.

Regardless, electric costs are not negligible when you run them 24/7 for moths at a time, and although I agree with you about the 280x's and 290s not being worth the premium, I wouldn't buy any 5xxx or 6xxx cards at all at this point, as there is a significant efficiency step up to gcn, so 7xxx is the minimum.

[AlexGR]

If i should buy mining equipment for DRK.. is it still more profitable that buying? Lets say i fix four amd 290.. Any recomendations?

Regards
Prospect

Honestly I have no idea how that could be more profitable right now.. 4 290s right now has gotta set you back like 2000$ with the rest of the mining rig? 2000 $ is a bit over 3 BTC (3.18 right now). Let's say you have 3BTC just for round numbers sake and could get all of your DRK at 0.0015 BTC , that would mean 2000 DRK. How much time does it take for 4 of those cards to generate 2000 DRK ? By the time they are  generated will the difficulty have shot up 3 or 4 times ? Seems like a lot of trouble to go through. Now if those cards will be used for other coins after .. maybe it's worthwhile.

edit: just saw the post above mine - so with 4 cards you would get roughly 15 coins/day at current difficulty. which would be 2000/15 = 133 days or 4.44 months to mine 2000 DRK if the difficulty remains the same (which it won't). This coin hasn't even been out for 2 months yet , in 4.44 months who knows where it will be.

This is why I stopped mining Dark.

Right now almost every coin has a similar ROI, around 4 months, most scrypt might be worse, it depends what you mine, what you paid for the card and how much you pay for electricity.

So by this answer i guess it is better to invest BTC into DRK than buy mining equipment. Had such high hopes since this was a "no premine".

regards
prospect

Try the above calculations with cheaper, used cards for lower mining expenses and see if it's better. But mining can never be a guarantee for obtaining the DRK you want because diff may escalate. Mining calculations always are projected with difficulty as it is right now, but it tends to not stay the same, and it is very tricky to predict what will happen in one, two, three months.

[AlexGR]

Regarding mining, I don't think people are very cost-efficient in how they setup their mining rigs. There's too much "I want to get the best there is" mentality floating around which increases CAPEX cost significantly (for less OPEX of course - but IMO it's not worth it unless the electric costs are too high). The fact that people are buying brand new 280s/290s and pay thousands of dollars from the get go is a bit disturbing.

Clocked 5850s and 6870s are pulling like 1.3 MHs* and people can find used ones at around 100$ per card instead of 500-600$ for a brand new 290. Will a 290 give 5-6x performance? Nope.

* For some reason, series 58xx and 68xx seem to have a factor of 3.6-3.8x compared to Scrypt.

Not sure how you're getting 1.3mhs on a 5850, mine start being unstable and risk crashing the comp when trying to push over 1mhs, but if you want to ignore electric costs and look at just hardware costs, you also need to inclue motherboards, ram, etc, since you'll need twice as many pcie slots to get the same hash power.

Regardless, electric costs are not negligible when you run them 24/7 for moths at a time, and although I agree with you about the 280x's and 290s not being worth the premium, I wouldn't buy any 5xxx or 6xxx cards at all at this point, as there is a significant efficiency step up to gcn, so 7xxx is the minimum.

My preference is up to dual slot mobos with celerons and cheap PSUs - like 20-25 euros at most - where you can make a system with like less than 150$.

If one opts for 4x cards like 250-300w each, then one requires very expensive mobos + very expensive PSUs (which could equal the cost of one further 290). Furthermore, the 5xxx and 6xxx can be resold for near the same money at a later date (very small reduction in price if bought used / resold as used) versus the 290s who may have lost something like 30% of their value due to being priced as premium / top-end products (and they won't be on that position for long).

I agree with the larger efficiency, primarily due to the 28nm energy saving gains, but the price gap is so large that one has to be mining for a loooooong time to make up for the price difference.

For example, let's say you have 2x 5850 pulling 2x200w (I consider it clocked at max point where it's stable) vs 1x290x (optimized/clocked fully) pulling 1x290w (which is the max TDP and not above it).

If we go something like 0.6x for DRK power draw it goes down to 240w for the 2x5850 and 175w for the 290x.

After a year running 24/7 with the same hashrates, the costs will be:

2x5850: 0.24kw/hr x 24 hours x 365 days = 2.102 kwh x 0.2$ per kw = 420$ for the power + 200$ for the cards = 620$ total.

1x290x: 0.175w/hr x 24 hours x 365 days = 1.533 kwh x 0.2$ per kw = 306$ for the power +500-600$ for the card = 806-906$ total.

If we went for scrypt it would be like

2x5850: 0.4kw/hr x 24 hours x 365 days = 3.504 kwh x 0.2$ per kw = 700$ for the power + 200$ for the cards = 900$ total.

1x290x: 0.29kw/hr x 24 hours x 365 days = 2.540 kwh x 0.2$ per kw = 508$ for the power +500-600$ for the card = 1008-1108$ total.

And, if one tries to recover some of the costs, by that time I'd guess that there'd be significant price loss if one tried to resell the 290x vs the 2x5850s.

The premium pricing in 290s is inflating the CAPEX tremendously and the improved OPEX is not THAT better to make up for it over a reasonable amount of time. That's how I see it at least.

[fusecavator]

If i should buy mining equipment for DRK.. is it still more profitable that buying? Lets say i fix four amd 290.. Any recomendations?

Regards
Prospect

Honestly I have no idea how that could be more profitable right now.. 4 290s right now has gotta set you back like 2000$ with the rest of the mining rig? 2000 $ is a bit over 3 BTC (3.18 right now). Let's say you have 3BTC just for round numbers sake and could get all of your DRK at 0.0015 BTC , that would mean 2000 DRK. How much time does it take for 4 of those cards to generate 2000 DRK ? By the time they are  generated will the difficulty have shot up 3 or 4 times ? Seems like a lot of trouble to go through. Now if those cards will be used for other coins after .. maybe it's worthwhile.

edit: just saw the post above mine - so with 4 cards you would get roughly 15 coins/day at current difficulty. which would be 2000/15 = 133 days or 4.44 months to mine 2000 DRK if the difficulty remains the same (which it won't). This coin hasn't even been out for 2 months yet , in 4.44 months who knows where it will be.

This is why I stopped mining Dark.

Right now almost every coin has a similar ROI, around 4 months, most scrypt might be worse, it depends what you mine, what you paid for the card and how much you pay for electricity.

So by this answer i guess it is better to invest BTC into DRK than buy mining equipment. Had such high hopes since this was a "no premine".

regards
prospect

It really depends on what your intentions are. If you want to invest in drk, and make money from the price rise, then buy the drk, not the hardware. The hardware will give you a trickle, and the price increase will likely occur long before you get as much drk as you would have gotten from buying it directly. If getting a trickle of income from now on seems like a better idea to you, get the hardware. You'll probably be able to make a small profit from either drk, or some other coin or another either as long as you choose to run the hardware, or until it becomes obsolete.

[matthewh3]

A UK P2Pool node based on a VPS in London - http://drk.p2pool.n00bsys0p.co.uk:7903/static/ - currently 0% fee.  Helps support network diversification by using P2Pool.

[avanda1121]

If i should buy mining equipment for DRK.. is it still more profitable that buying? Lets say i fix four amd 290.. Any recomendations?

Regards
Prospect

Honestly I have no idea how that could be more profitable right now.. 4 290s right now has gotta set you back like 2000$ with the rest of the mining rig? 2000 $ is a bit over 3 BTC (3.18 right now). Let's say you have 3BTC just for round numbers sake and could get all of your DRK at 0.0015 BTC , that would mean 2000 DRK. How much time does it take for 4 of those cards to generate 2000 DRK ? By the time they are  generated will the difficulty have shot up 3 or 4 times ? Seems like a lot of trouble to go through. Now if those cards will be used for other coins after .. maybe it's worthwhile.

edit: just saw the post above mine - so with 4 cards you would get roughly 15 coins/day at current difficulty. which would be 2000/15 = 133 days or 4.44 months to mine 2000 DRK if the difficulty remains the same (which it won't). This coin hasn't even been out for 2 months yet , in 4.44 months who knows where it will be.

+1
This is why I stopped mining Dark.

Right now almost every coin has a similar ROI, around 4 months, most scrypt might be worse, it depends what you mine, what you paid for the card and how much you pay for electricity.

So by this answer i guess it is better to invest BTC into DRK than buy mining equipment. Had such high hopes since this was a "no premine".

regards
prospect

It really depends on what your intentions are. If you want to invest in drk, and make money from the price rise, then buy the drk, not the hardware. The hardware will give you a trickle, and the price increase will likely occur long before you get as much drk as you would have gotten from buying it directly. If getting a trickle of income from now on seems like a better idea to you, get the hardware. You'll probably be able to make a small profit from either drk, or some other coin or another either as long as you choose to run the hardware, or until it becomes obsolete.

[Honest Tim]

We would want to head that off by putting in a prepared article for editors that people can copy / paste and let them edit their own take. It also means we can frame the conversation. 

I consider myself quite a spiritual being.
I agree with Bill Hicks, that anyone involved in marketing, should, quite literally kill themselves.

but...

BUT.....


I F**KING LOVE the way you think.  

[fusecavator]

Regarding mining, I don't think people are very cost-efficient in how they setup their mining rigs. There's too much "I want to get the best there is" mentality floating around which increases CAPEX cost significantly (for less OPEX of course - but IMO it's not worth it unless the electric costs are too high). The fact that people are buying brand new 280s/290s and pay thousands of dollars from the get go is a bit disturbing.

Clocked 5850s and 6870s are pulling like 1.3 MHs* and people can find used ones at around 100$ per card instead of 500-600$ for a brand new 290. Will a 290 give 5-6x performance? Nope.

* For some reason, series 58xx and 68xx seem to have a factor of 3.6-3.8x compared to Scrypt.

Not sure how you're getting 1.3mhs on a 5850, mine start being unstable and risk crashing the comp when trying to push over 1mhs, but if you want to ignore electric costs and look at just hardware costs, you also need to inclue motherboards, ram, etc, since you'll need twice as many pcie slots to get the same hash power.

Regardless, electric costs are not negligible when you run them 24/7 for moths at a time, and although I agree with you about the 280x's and 290s not being worth the premium, I wouldn't buy any 5xxx or 6xxx cards at all at this point, as there is a significant efficiency step up to gcn, so 7xxx is the minimum.

My preference is up to dual slot mobos with celerons and cheap PSUs - like 20-25 euros at most - where you can make a system with like less than 150$.

If one opts for 4x cards like 250-300w each, then one requires very expensive mobos + very expensive PSUs (which could equal the cost of one further 290). Furthermore, the 5xxx and 6xxx can be resold for near the same money at a later date (very small reduction in price if bought used / resold as used) versus the 290s who may have lost something like 30% of their value due to being priced as premium / top-end products (and they won't be on that position for long).

I agree with the larger efficiency, primarily due to the 28nm energy saving gains, but the price gap is so large that one has to be mining for a loooooong time to make up for the price difference.

For example, let's say you have 2x 5850 pulling 2x200w (I consider it clocked at max point where it's stable) vs 1x290x (optimized/clocked fully) pulling 1x290w (which is the max TDP and not above it).

If we go something like 0.6x for DRK power draw it goes down to 240w for the 2x5850 and 175w for the 290x.

After a year running 24/7 with the same hashrates, the costs will be:

2x5850: 0.24kw/hr x 24 hours x 365 days = 2.102 kwh x 0.2$ per kw = 420$ for the power + 200$ for the cards = 620$ total.

1x290x: 0.175w/hr x 24 hours x 365 days = 1.533 kwh x 0.2$ per kw = 306$ for the power +500-600$ for the card = 806-906$ total.

If we went for scrypt it would be like

2x5850: 0.4kw/hr x 24 hours x 365 days = 3.504 kwh x 0.2$ per kw = 700$ for the power + 200$ for the cards = 900$ total.

1x290x: 0.29kw/hr x 24 hours x 365 days = 2.540 kwh x 0.2$ per kw = 508$ for the power +500-600$ for the card = 1008-1108$ total.

And, if one tries to recover some of the costs, by that time I'd guess that there'd be significant price loss if one tried to resell the 290x vs the 2x5850s.

The premium pricing in 290s is inflating the CAPEX tremendously and the improved OPEX is not THAT better to make up for it over a reasonable amount of time. That's how I see it at least.

You don't need any different psus for higher draw cards, as you can just use more of the same if its more cost effective that way. Just stick a wire in the atx connector connecting the green wire to a ground, and hook it up to just the gpus.

A used 7970 can be had for $350. If you take its max tdp (250w) and use your same assumptions, it would be $262 for power and $350 for the card, is $612 total. The 7970 will get ~12% lower hashrate than the 290x(assuming 2.2mhs for the 7970, and 2.5mhs for the 290x), but the 7970 is clearly still a much better deal. As for the 5850s you think you can get 1.3 on each, and I've had trouble going over 1 on each, so I'm going to assume an average of 1.15, which would put the 5850s 4.5% ahead of the 7970 in hashpower, making the 5850s a slightly better deal for 1 year, but the 7970 will overtake it if one extends the time range.

[TanteStefana]

We would want to head that off by putting in a prepared article for editors that people can copy / paste and let them edit their own take. It also means we can frame the conversation. 

I consider myself quite a spiritual being.
I agree with Bill Hicks, that anyone involved in marketing, should, quite literally kill themselves.

but...

BUT.....


I F**KING LOVE the way you think.  

There are great products and ideas that nobody would know about if it weren't for marketing.  But like everything, it can be false and bad.

[matthewh3]

A UK P2Pool node based on a VPS in London - http://drk.p2pool.n00bsys0p.co.uk:7903/static/ - currently 0% fee.  Helps support network diversification by using P2Pool.

Intro on P2Pool and how to use the pool properly added - http://p2pool.n00bsys0p.co.uk

[Cryddit]

I agree with Bill Hicks, that anyone involved in marketing, should, quite literally kill themselves.

I generally dislike marketing.  I mean, seriously, to the point where I don't tolerate logos in my home.  Sometimes it's even kind of comical; I can't explain to anyone why I replace the logo-buttons on designer jackets, or file them off and buff them smooth.  I don't watch TV because that means being exposed to commercials.  It's enough to just see billboards and crap when I'm driving - that's unavoidable, so I've come to live with it.  But I need to sit down and sort of put my head together right for fifteen minutes or so after a long drive, and it's mainly because of billboards.

I can't really explain that.  It happens on some visceral, very emotional level. 

But when I think about it, the only thing I really have a good reason to hate about marketing, the only thing justified about this whole phobia/quirk/whatever of mine, is because I really, really hate lies.  And much as it's associated in my mind and probably yours, I have to admit that not all marketing is lies.

[mannie]

I agree with Bill Hicks, that anyone involved in marketing, should, quite literally kill themselves.

I generally dislike marketing.  I mean, seriously, to the point where I don't tolerate logos in my home.  Sometimes it's even kind of comical; I can't explain to anyone why I replace the logo-buttons on designer jackets, or file them off and buff them smooth.  I don't watch TV because that means being exposed to commercials.  It's enough to just see billboards and crap when I'm driving - that's unavoidable, so I've come to live with it.  But I need to sit down and sort of put my head together right for fifteen minutes or so after a long drive, and it's mainly because of billboards.

I can't really explain that.  It happens on some visceral, very emotional level. 

But when I think about it, the only thing I really have a good reason to hate about marketing, the only thing justified about this whole phobia/quirk/whatever of mine, is because I really, really hate lies.  And much as it's associated in my mind and probably yours, I have to admit that not all marketing is lies.

Thanks for sharing but marketing at its most honest is only about creating awareness of a product that satisfies a need. It's also essential for showing people about a product that can satisfy a need they haven't considered. This is where marketing is important for DRK. Many people won't be out there searching for a private, zero-fee online medium of exchange because they don't know it exists.

We believe this product has value so why should we be so hesitant to market it? We're not marketing fast food to children. I don't think we should allow emotional responses to that kind of marketing cloud the need to market DRK.

[haggis]

I agree with Bill Hicks, that anyone involved in marketing, should, quite literally kill themselves.

I generally dislike marketing.  I mean, seriously, to the point where I don't tolerate logos in my home.  Sometimes it's even kind of comical; I can't explain to anyone why I replace the logo-buttons on designer jackets, or file them off and buff them smooth.  I don't watch TV because that means being exposed to commercials.  It's enough to just see billboards and crap when I'm driving - that's unavoidable, so I've come to live with it.  But I need to sit down and sort of put my head together right for fifteen minutes or so after a long drive, and it's mainly because of billboards.

I can't really explain that.  It happens on some visceral, very emotional level. 

But when I think about it, the only thing I really have a good reason to hate about marketing, the only thing justified about this whole phobia/quirk/whatever of mine, is because I really, really hate lies.  And much as it's associated in my mind and probably yours, I have to admit that not all marketing is lies.

Black Mirror - Season 1 Episode 2 

[coins101]

For me the best one I have heard is a few pages back, someone said they moved stuff to their old pc and discovered it had 20,000 DRKs there that they had forgotten about. haha  

There are plenty here who will be very, very rich when the price hits $100. Good luck to them, too.

I've been an LTC miner for a while, until recently. Missing the early start of DRK is what happens when you get blinkered.

[eizh]

DRK has two big issues that I see:

(1) Because the power draw is only 60% of scrypt, large GPU farms that mine altcoins and dump them for BTC/fiat have an incentive to target DRK. More profit even at price parity due to lower electricity costs. This will keep market supply high perpetually and hence keep the price low.

(2) The legions of unremarkable clone-coins will implement DarkSend once it's open-sourced. See how zero-talent "devs" are copy-pasting Vertcoin's anti-ASIC adaptive N algorithm.

For both (1) and (2) the solution is greater adoption. In the case of (1) it reduces these quasi-commercial dumpers to a smaller proportion of the market. In the case of (2), it allows DRK to achieve escape velocity and get to a point where a competing clone coin can't catch up due to lacking the network effect.

So I see "marketing" as crucial, even in the short-term. In any case, DarkSend should probably be kept closed-source before hitting at least Bter and BTC38 (not that I'm in any position to advise devs). Call it an extended mandatory beta or something.

[matthewh3]

DRK has two big issues that I see:

(1) Because the power draw is only 60% of scrypt, large GPU farms that mine altcoins and dump them for BTC/fiat have an incentive to target DRK. More profit even at price parity due to lower electricity costs. This will keep market supply high perpetually and hence keep the price low.

(2) The legions of unremarkable clone-coins will implement DarkSend once it's open-sourced. See how zero-talent "devs" are copy-pasting Vertcoin's anti-ASIC adaptive N algorithm.

For both (1) and (2) the solution is greater adoption. In the case of (1) it reduces these quasi-commercial dumpers to a smaller proportion of the market. In the case of (2), it allows DRK to achieve escape velocity and get to a point where a competing clone coin can't catch up due to lacking the network effect.

So I see "marketing" as crucial, even in the short-term. In any case, DarkSend should probably be kept closed-source before hitting at least Bter and BTC38 (not that I'm in any position to advise devs). Call it an extended mandatory beta or something.

(1) 'Gravity Well' to an extent.

(2) Being first to the market always has an advantage just like bitcoin.  Especially if the DRK dev team is leading the development of P2P Darksend.