[NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread

[salsacz]

I'm loving this distribution model.

In order for someone to gain just 1% of NEM, they would have to create 40 bitcointalk accounts and pay more than .4btc in fees.

Compare this to NXT, where several people gained control of 4%+ just by sending 1 bitcoin.

in Nxt everyone could send only 0.0004 BTC... and it was 61 days long!

[Stadtfeger]

maybe there is Graviton ready to develop an Exchange for NEM, after all, he has the experience...

For my godson I would also like to have a share. Can I make about dgex a referral because my client is Nxt scrap and my brother had to help me already!
He would then hold 13 years the coins: D

[TheMightyX]

What happens to all the funds used to purchase stake?

if you have 4000 stakeholders as you mentioned, first 20 pages free, with .0001 btc afterwards, doubling every 10 pages, thats:

Code:

(400*0)+(200*0.0001)+(200*0.0002)+(200*0.0004)+(200*0.0008)+(200*0.0016)+(200*0.0032)+(200*0.0064)+(200*0.0128)+(200*0.0256)+(200*0.0512)+(200*0.1024)+(200*0.2048)+(200*0.4096)+(200*0.8192)+(200*1.6384)(200*3.2768)+(200*6.5536)+(200*13.1072)

Which, as you can see, is ridiculous.
Obviously doubling every 10 pages is not sustainable.

As well, we would need 200 pages to get 4000 stakeholders at 20/page. Are we really going to wait that long?
Having 4000 initial stakeholders is not realistic in terms of receiving payment details and coordinating payouts of stake unless you plan to automate the process somehow (Compile pages into text doc, parse addresses into database, automate send). Even then you could have problems.

Before this gets any bigger you need to clarify exactly what's going to happen to those funds.
If this is truly to be a fair currency for the people maybe they could go into an escrow account for dev support and feature/app bounties. That is just one suggestion of course.

[utopianfuture]

What happens to all the funds used to purchase stake?

if you have 4000 stakeholders as you mentioned, first 20 pages free, with .0001 btc afterwards, doubling every 10 pages, thats:

Code:

(400*0)+(200*0.0001)+(200*0.0002)+(200*0.0004)+(200*0.0008)+(200*0.0016)+(200*0.0032)+(200*0.0064)+(200*0.0128)+(200*0.0256)+(200*0.0512)+(200*0.1024)+(200*0.2048)+(200*0.4096)+(200*0.8192)+(200*1.6384)(200*3.2768)+(200*6.5536)+(200*13.1072)

Which, as you can see, is ridiculous.
Obviously doubling every 10 pages is not sustainable.

As well, we would need 200 pages to get 4000 stakeholders at 20/page. Are we really going to wait that long?
Having 4000 initial stakeholders is not realistic in terms of receiving payment details and coordinating payouts of stake unless you plan to automate the process somehow (Compile pages into text doc, parse addresses into database, automate send). Even then you could have problems.

Before this gets any bigger you need to clarify exactly what's going to happen to those funds.
If this is truly to be a fair currency for the people maybe they could go into an escrow account for dev support and feature/app bounties. That is just one suggestion of course.

The fee will not double up every 10 pages since after page 60 it exceeds 100NXT or 0.01BTC, I thinking of moving the fee on a linear scale after that. So the schedule would be 80nxt ->160nxt ->200nxt ->250nxt -> 300 nxt and increases 50 nxt every 10 page after that.  Firstly, we don't want the fee to be exorbitantly expensive for newcomers to join in; Secondly, the fee's main goal is not to maximize the development fund, it is not that necessary ; but the fee is set to establish initial value for NEM and encourage people to go outside and promote NEM to get a promotional stake which is more important because I saw a lot people sending money in but not enough promotional effort so far.

I think a page would get us 200 posts but probably around 150-170 stakeholders because people asking questions and I have to go around answer or ask them to move to the discussion thread. So yes, we would probably go on to page 200 and more but it would not take that long though because we went though 50 pages + in 7 days.

Now managing 3800 stakeholders (200 is in development stake) would require some intense manual works but we are prepared. I have assigned 10 people for this task (see in stakeholder list) and it could go up to 20 people if needed. I would need to trust these people though because they will handle transferring NEM stakes. So it will be manual work, not automatic but  it's already well planned. I managed to create the stakeholder list myself up to page 45 with close to 800 accounts; so it is not really that difficult.

About the fund, could someone provide an estimate how much we are going to get given the above fee schedule ? Similar as BCNext sitting on 10 million NXT common fund right now, I will control this fund myself until there is a safe way for the community to manage the fund; or I will transfer the fund to a person who I and the community trusts. Community should decide how to spend the fund.  

About exchanges: Peercover, Graviton many options; I have a plan but it is expected that NEMs should be traded fairly easy after the fundraising and the allocation. So stay tuned.

[Juzion]

I have only next coins on bter and dgex, can is transfer from there?

[Mrrr]

What happens to all the funds used to purchase stake?

if you have 4000 stakeholders as you mentioned, first 20 pages free, with .0001 btc afterwards, doubling every 10 pages, thats:

Code:

(400*0)+(200*0.0001)+(200*0.0002)+(200*0.0004)+(200*0.0008)+(200*0.0016)+(200*0.0032)+(200*0.0064)+(200*0.0128)+(200*0.0256)+(200*0.0512)+(200*0.1024)+(200*0.2048)+(200*0.4096)+(200*0.8192)+(200*1.6384)(200*3.2768)+(200*6.5536)+(200*13.1072)

Which, as you can see, is ridiculous.
Obviously doubling every 10 pages is not sustainable.

As well, we would need 200 pages to get 4000 stakeholders at 20/page. Are we really going to wait that long?
Having 4000 initial stakeholders is not realistic in terms of receiving payment details and coordinating payouts of stake unless you plan to automate the process somehow (Compile pages into text doc, parse addresses into database, automate send). Even then you could have problems.

Before this gets any bigger you need to clarify exactly what's going to happen to those funds.
If this is truly to be a fair currency for the people maybe they could go into an escrow account for dev support and feature/app bounties. That is just one suggestion of course.

The fee will not double up every 10 pages since after page 60 it exceeds 100NXT or 0.01BTC, I thinking of moving the fee on a linear scale after that. So the schedule would be 80nxt ->160nxt ->200nxt ->250nxt -> 300 nxt and increases 50 nxt every 10 page after that.  Firstly, we don't want the fee to be exorbitantly expensive for newcomers to join in; Secondly, the fee's main goal is not to maximize the development fund, it is not that necessary ; but the fee is set to establish initial value for NEM and encourage people to go outside and promote NEM to get a promotional stake which is more important because I saw a lot people sending money in but not enough promotional effort so far.

I think a page would get us 200 posts but probably around 150-170 stakeholders because people asking questions and I have to go around answer or ask them to move to the discussion thread. So yes, we would probably go on to page 200 and more but it would not take that long though because we went though 50 pages + in 7 days.

Now managing 3800 stakeholders (200 is in development stake) would require some intense manual works but we are prepared. I have assigned 10 people for this task (see in stakeholder list) and it could go up to 20 people if needed. I would need to trust these people though because they will handle transferring NEM stakes. So it will be manual work, not automatic but  it's already well planned. I managed to create the stakeholder list myself up to page 45 with close to 800 accounts; so it is not really that difficult.

About the fund, could someone provide an estimate how much we are going to get given the above fee schedule ? Similar as BCNext sitting on 10 million NXT common fund right now, I will control this fund myself until there is a safe way for the community to manage the fund; or I will transfer the fund to a person who I and the community trusts. Community should decide how to spend the fund.  

About exchanges: Peercover, Graviton many options; I have a plan but it is expected that NEMs should be traded fairly easy after the fundraising and the allocation. So stay tuned.

Regarding the linear scale: you should add it to the Join NEM topic front page.

In my calculation the last 1 million NEM sold will be at a price of 800NXT/ .08 BTC. Now that's quite all right for a 0.025% stake and still doesn't really discriminate between the first and the last post. If this will go anywhere at all it will not really matter. If it goes nowhere the last poster will lose 70$ but that's a very reasonable exposure compared to other IPO's.

[utopianfuture]

Here is an interesting discussion. Could you guys chip in ?

https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=678

Let me know what you think.

[utopianfuture]

I made some small changes to the front page to cover the sockpuppet case and add more fundraising history information. There will be several grammatical changes when I received the proofreading file from EvilDave. But at this point I would be very averse to changes in anything substantial in the front page. Any of such changes will be announced here for public reviews.

Also I am going to update the stakeholder list soon. Stay tuned.

[steskoff]

I´m sent 80 nxt
to:14343293611098709683

Transaction id: 3245406024230715942

Thank 

[TheMightyX]

What happens to all the funds used to purchase stake?

if you have 4000 stakeholders as you mentioned, first 20 pages free, with .0001 btc afterwards, doubling every 10 pages, thats:

Code:

(400*0)+(200*0.0001)+(200*0.0002)+(200*0.0004)+(200*0.0008)+(200*0.0016)+(200*0.0032)+(200*0.0064)+(200*0.0128)+(200*0.0256)+(200*0.0512)+(200*0.1024)+(200*0.2048)+(200*0.4096)+(200*0.8192)+(200*1.6384)(200*3.2768)+(200*6.5536)+(200*13.1072)

Which, as you can see, is ridiculous.
Obviously doubling every 10 pages is not sustainable.

As well, we would need 200 pages to get 4000 stakeholders at 20/page. Are we really going to wait that long?
Having 4000 initial stakeholders is not realistic in terms of receiving payment details and coordinating payouts of stake unless you plan to automate the process somehow (Compile pages into text doc, parse addresses into database, automate send). Even then you could have problems.

Before this gets any bigger you need to clarify exactly what's going to happen to those funds.
If this is truly to be a fair currency for the people maybe they could go into an escrow account for dev support and feature/app bounties. That is just one suggestion of course.

The fee will not double up every 10 pages since after page 60 it exceeds 100NXT or 0.01BTC, I thinking of moving the fee on a linear scale after that. So the schedule would be 80nxt ->160nxt ->200nxt ->250nxt -> 300 nxt and increases 50 nxt every 10 page after that.  Firstly, we don't want the fee to be exorbitantly expensive for newcomers to join in; Secondly, the fee's main goal is not to maximize the development fund, it is not that necessary ; but the fee is set to establish initial value for NEM and encourage people to go outside and promote NEM to get a promotional stake which is more important because I saw a lot people sending money in but not enough promotional effort so far.

I think a page would get us 200 posts but probably around 150-170 stakeholders because people asking questions and I have to go around answer or ask them to move to the discussion thread. So yes, we would probably go on to page 200 and more but it would not take that long though because we went though 50 pages + in 7 days.

Now managing 3800 stakeholders (200 is in development stake) would require some intense manual works but we are prepared. I have assigned 10 people for this task (see in stakeholder list) and it could go up to 20 people if needed. I would need to trust these people though because they will handle transferring NEM stakes. So it will be manual work, not automatic but  it's already well planned. I managed to create the stakeholder list myself up to page 45 with close to 800 accounts; so it is not really that difficult.

About the fund, could someone provide an estimate how much we are going to get given the above fee schedule ? Similar as BCNext sitting on 10 million NXT common fund right now, I will control this fund myself until there is a safe way for the community to manage the fund; or I will transfer the fund to a person who I and the community trusts. Community should decide how to spend the fund.  

About exchanges: Peercover, Graviton many options; I have a plan but it is expected that NEMs should be traded fairly easy after the fundraising and the allocation. So stay tuned.

Regarding the linear scale: you should add it to the Join NEM topic front page.

In my calculation the last 1 million NEM sold will be at a price of 800NXT/ .08 BTC. Now that's quite all right for a 0.025% stake and still doesn't really discriminate between the first and the last post. If this will go anywhere at all it will not really matter. If it goes nowhere the last poster will lose 70$ but that's a very reasonable exposure compared to other IPO's.

After page 100 it exceeds .01 btc (.0128 to be exact). So if you stop the doubling at .01 on page 100 and start adding 50:

Code:

(400*0)+(200*0.0001)+(200*0.0002)+(200*0.0004)+(200*0.0008)+(200*0.0016)+(200*0.0032)+(200*0.0064)+(200*0.01)+(200*0.0150)+(200*0.0200)+(200*0.250)+(200*0.0300)+(200*0.0350)+(200*0.0400)+(200*0.0450)+(200*0.0500)+(200*0.0550)+(200*0.0600)

0.0001   =   0.02
0.0002   =   0.04
0.0004   =   0.08
0.0008   =   0.16
0.0016   =   0.32
0.0032   =   0.64
0.0064   =   1.28
0.01   =   2
0.015   =   3
0.02   =   4
0.025   =   5
0.03   =   6
0.035   =   7
0.04   =   8
0.045   =   9
0.05   =   10
0.055   =   11
0.06   =   12

Total =  79.54 BTC
total will be roughly less than this, but not by much.

This is a bit too much. lowering this to 3000 stakeholders or less would be safer for the community.
3000 stakeholders = 29.54 BTC

[TheMightyX]

This persons funds need to be returned.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.msg4763364#msg4763364

Did spread some word too. Next week is my sons birthday so we will have a small family party.
I will announce that I have created several NXT accounts for them, something I wanted to do a while ago already and that I transfered amounts of
equvalent 25, 50 and 100 USD in NXT.
In addition I will announce that all of them take part in NEM too.

These are the accounts that sent fee of 80 NXT:

17590477386098340083
2717278220125207230
12661008007105420190
17172104963015703320
6038790433375254174
4178383971209817285
5137893641992197966
7635881133064869098


Not sure where this is going but sounds interesting.

Will add signatures promptly.

If we can just create as many NEM accounts as we want per bitcointalk account it will be pandemonium. Please tell that person it is one stake per account.
Or else, I want to create accounts for my extended family. I'm going to send 38 x .008, ok?

[TheMightyX]

This is bullshit

ff455047c6e0403a804ec402a8b2d4f75b46f64d33323b153c7ee5daa2ce2045
0.008btc

I am going to reduce your stakes to one account only if you continue claiming NEM stakes this way.

ok, I will stop. sockpuppet_5 was already posted, sorry. You have specifically allowed multiple claims so I did not think I was doing anything wrong. Too tired to think of groovy forum names today.

But I have not done anything wrong!! This is unfair!! Look at all the accounts with 1 -5 posts in this thread. There are dozens of sockpuppet accounts, just like mine, but you are banning me based on my choice of "account name" - that is acting like a dictator IMO.

The only problem with me is I chose a account names that you don't like, and you ban me!. DICTATOR behaviour. Please reconsider. I am a genuine person interested in NEM. These accounts are for people in my family. I chose names that are easy to remember.

You can't make up the rules as you go along.

No arbitrary rule of distribution. No dictator to tell you how to do things. The most egalitarian coin. Show your love to NEM.

4. How could you prevent multiple buy-ins ?

In short - multiple buy-in is allowed with multiple accounts. We want you to have the ability to buy a NEM stake for your loved ones, your friends so they could all join the movement but the development team reserve the right to refund you the money if an effort to unfairly accumulate NEM stakes is discovered.

My detail explanation and rationales are here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=426303.msg4661493#msg4661493
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=426303.msg4671768#msg4671768

It appears sockpuppet accounts are OK, but we have to conceal them.

Sorry I made that statement too quickly, so when I think about it you are probably right. I posted your case here https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=678 . Let's see what the community has to say.

Thank you for reconsidering! I assure you the 5 accounts are for the 5 people in my family.

In retrospect my use of 'sockpuppet' was unnecessarily provocative, but I honestly did not intend that. As long as I've been using forums I've referred to, 2nd and 3rd accounts as 'sockpuppets', and I was very tired when I registered those names, and that's what I called them. They're easy to remember, but I can see it was silly now.

Thanks again for showing flexibility of thought.

I support NEM!

You could have at least attempted to do things fairly by limiting stake to accounts created over a week ago, limiting multiple buy-ins, simple taint analysis (scan address list for duplicates) etc, etc.
Maybe you are only interested in the pledged btc/nxt and not the success of NEM?
At this rate we will have a lot of users with 20-100x stake in NEM at launch. Yes, imagine fairness indeed.

A fair coin is moderated by the people. If you ask the people, no one wants people to be able to buy in multiple times (except those who have bought in multiple times).

[gvans]

edit, my newest entry here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=426303.msg5045181#msg5045181

Here is another one for you. Showing my love to NEM  

This is a simple readable coin-logo with integrated currency symbol in the spirit of bitcoin. It is easy to relate to but it is still very different from btc.
Use and share it if you find it useful. Find the separate files for graphics here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jahdbc127www117/jsAdyCd-R4

[mrnxtuser]

Here is another one for you. Showing my love to NEM  

Link dropbox-folder with separate files for graphics: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jahdbc127www117/jsAdyCd-R4

This is a simple readable coin-logo with integrated currency symbol in the spirit of bitcoin. It is easy to relate to but it is still very different from btc.
Use and share it if you find it useful.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18301977/gvans%20nem%20graphic%20presentation.jpg

that's freaking sick man. good job!

[nextgencoin]

This is bullshit

ff455047c6e0403a804ec402a8b2d4f75b46f64d33323b153c7ee5daa2ce2045
0.008btc

I am going to reduce your stakes to one account only if you continue claiming NEM stakes this way.

ok, I will stop. sockpuppet_5 was already posted, sorry. You have specifically allowed multiple claims so I did not think I was doing anything wrong. Too tired to think of groovy forum names today.

But I have not done anything wrong!! This is unfair!! Look at all the accounts with 1 -5 posts in this thread. There are dozens of sockpuppet accounts, just like mine, but you are banning me based on my choice of "account name" - that is acting like a dictator IMO.

The only problem with me is I chose a account names that you don't like, and you ban me!. DICTATOR behaviour. Please reconsider. I am a genuine person interested in NEM. These accounts are for people in my family. I chose names that are easy to remember.

You can't make up the rules as you go along.

No arbitrary rule of distribution. No dictator to tell you how to do things. The most egalitarian coin. Show your love to NEM.

4. How could you prevent multiple buy-ins ?

In short - multiple buy-in is allowed with multiple accounts. We want you to have the ability to buy a NEM stake for your loved ones, your friends so they could all join the movement but the development team reserve the right to refund you the money if an effort to unfairly accumulate NEM stakes is discovered.

My detail explanation and rationales are here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=426303.msg4661493#msg4661493
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=426303.msg4671768#msg4671768

It appears sockpuppet accounts are OK, but we have to conceal them.

Sorry I made that statement too quickly, so when I think about it you are probably right. I posted your case here https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=678 . Let's see what the community has to say.

Thank you for reconsidering! I assure you the 5 accounts are for the 5 people in my family.

In retrospect my use of 'sockpuppet' was unnecessarily provocative, but I honestly did not intend that. As long as I've been using forums I've referred to, 2nd and 3rd accounts as 'sockpuppets', and I was very tired when I registered those names, and that's what I called them. They're easy to remember, but I can see it was silly now.

Thanks again for showing flexibility of thought.

I support NEM!

You could have at least attempted to do things fairly by limiting stake to accounts created over a week ago, limiting multiple buy-ins, simple taint analysis (scan address list for duplicates) etc, etc.
Maybe you are only interested in the pledged btc/nxt and not the success of NEM?
At this rate we will have a lot of users with 20-100x stake in NEM at launch. Yes, imagine fairness indeed.

A fair coin is moderated by the people. If you ask the people, no one wants people to be able to buy in multiple times (except those who have bought in multiple times).

Dude if all the accounts are owned by exactly one person per account or a few people opened multiple accounts it makes no difference to your one stake. You will get around 1m, whatever people do that's why its not worth envying others and just be grateful you have this opportunity.

[opticalcarrier]

im wondering if there should have been a cutoff as in a date to get in on genesis block distribution.  As in, only accounts that were made by a certain date could access the IPO.  Make that date be like the date of post 1 of this thread.

hell, maybe even go so far as to say those accounts even had to have a certain activity level.

this way, they distribution would still be "much much more "fair" than nxt"

and sock puppet accts would be minimized a great deal.  I have no doubt there are tons of sock puppets in on here even

best part of this method would be that buy in could be .001 BTC for every person, regardless of when they got in.

[KLONE]

im wondering if there should have been a cutoff as in a date to get in on genesis block distribution.  As in, only accounts that were made by a certain date could access the IPO.  Make that date be like the date of post 1 of this thread.

hell, maybe even go so far as to say those accounts even had to have a certain activity level.

this way, they distribution would still be "much much more "fair" than nxt"

and sock puppet accts would be minimized a great deal.  I have no doubt there are tons of sock puppets in on here even

best part of this method would be that buy in could be .001 BTC for every person, regardless of when they got in.

Draw a line in the sand today my friend. Retrospective rules are the death of trust. You have trust now, don't lose it by changing rules and creating unfairness to stop unfairness.

If people follow your rules they are in, period. If the rule allowed for sockpuppets, change the rule, but do it from today.

Just my 2 NEM

[utopianfuture]

im wondering if there should have been a cutoff as in a date to get in on genesis block distribution.  As in, only accounts that were made by a certain date could access the IPO.  Make that date be like the date of post 1 of this thread.

hell, maybe even go so far as to say those accounts even had to have a certain activity level.

this way, they distribution would still be "much much more "fair" than nxt"

and sock puppet accts would be minimized a great deal.  I have no doubt there are tons of sock puppets in on here even

Hi my plan is to bring a lot of people relatively new to crypto scene into this. I will start a media campaign soon and the goal is to have at least one major newspaper to cover NEM. The idea is that when some people read the article and get interested, they go to nem website and this front page, they should be able to make one account and reserve a stake with ease.

I am looking for a fiat-Nem gateway especially for this. Fiat-Nem gateway is not an exchange; it will operate until the fundraising over. Basically what the gateway will do is to collect fiat via Paypal and send NXT, BTC to nem's  account. Mark-up is up the gateway operator. This gateway will be included in the front page with 1 dev stake included. Can Peercover do this with ease ? So it is actually similar to a point of sale. Need to have a foolproof gateway before our campaign begins.

Bounties for nemcoin sites are still open. Very good deal I must say but I need quality web designer. I will wait a couple of days to get these sites up but if no one takes it we can still ahead with the media campaign; but the gateway is a must. Can't afford new people go away because they cannot send their money it. One new person to crypto is good for NEM and good for the whole industry. Crypto revolution should include many people not just this forum veterans. There are already several newbie accounts coming from our Reddit page   We have to accept some puppet socket accounts because we cannot ban genuine newbie accounts to get in with us since they are the people we want in.

Thanks to EvilDave, I just change several wording in the front page and I feel the wordings are much more professional now.

[okaynow]

Just a heads up on the announcement page, under security, probably some text is missing, it goes straight to videos

[TheMightyX]

Dude if all the accounts are owned by exactly one person per account or a few people opened multiple accounts it makes no difference to your one stake. You will get around 1m, whatever people do that's why its not worth envying others and just be grateful you have this opportunity.

You obviously didn't understand the criticism. If this coin is modeled on fairness how is it fair that some people can claim more stake than others?

It doesn't matter that the amount of stake doesn't change. The fact is if someone gets 20x stake, his value is 20x that of mine.
I get 1 million and some unethical person gets 20 million? it also devalues the value of everyones stake. If we have 3000 stakes but only 2000 users then we have lowered the value (inflated) our stake by 50%

Isn't that quite obvious?
Every single fake account devalues your stake. That is so painfully simple I can't explain it any more straightforward.