[NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread

[Pierrot20]

Interested for the french promotion ! Buzz and research partner
How I can reserve it ?
Merci

[Thies1965]

@Jaguar and Theis. Some thoughts from a friend.

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There are things that I don’t like about NXT or that I think could be done differently.

1. Storing whole blockchain in memory.
    imo, “app” should be split into 3 parts:
    1.  server, storing blockchain and all related info in DB - this one would be used for all the SERIOUS stuff (so exchages, faucets, and any other apps like that would run this)
    2.  lightweight IN-BROWSER client - I think CfB has similar idea - that one, would have ZERO knowledge itself it, but I think it’d be possible to do whole singing in-browser.
    3.  ‘normal’ client - for users, that want to participate in the network, but don’t want to deal with DB setup. This one would keep blockchain in memory, BUT it would rely on “snapshots”
               a. snapshot would be created every X days (I was thinking about X=10)
               b. they would contain information about state (of accounts), but would drop all the history
               c. snapshots (for new clients) could be propagated in torrent-like fashion.

1.1 Agree, storage must be transactional secure

1.2 lightweight browser, maybe I do not get the point, but this is already available...IMHO GUI not very nice or attractive and not easy to unerstand
@UF could you ask to elaborate on this a little bit more

1.3 In principle I would agree, snapshots which get propagate are open for attacks and easy targets to fake snapshots

2.  TPS rate. I’ve seen somewhere info, that Nxt could handle 100_000 TPS. I have some doubts about it. (current hardcoded limit for tx in block is 255, that would imply ~400 BLOCKS per sec).
     I think software, should be thought upfront to handle large amount of transactions per second. (so for sure, somewhere “in future” there should be switch to binary protocol, also it might be beneficial  to use UDP to propagate information).  what do you think about GHOST?
     Also I got interesting idea, but I’m not sure how it would work in practice...

3.   Lack of Wallet. People simply got used to this. I don’t think generating Secret Key by doing SHA on a string (like Nxt is doing currently) is a good idea.

4.   Curve. You’ve already written, you’d like to switch to Ed, so I guess you think the same.

A.   Server as a servlet - I think this is good choice for initial implementation (before adding binary protocol, also servlet, would still be needed if one would like to have IN-BROWSER client). But I’d change one simple (and quite obvious) thing: instead of embedding type of query in json, It should be in URL itself.
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A. Agree, maybe a kind of REST Api

[gimre]

   2.  lightweight IN-BROWSER client - I think CfB has similar idea - that one, would have ZERO knowledge itself it, but I think it’d be possible to do whole singing in-browser.
    3.  ‘normal’ client - for users, that want to participate in the network, but don’t want to deal with DB setup. This one would keep blockchain in memory, BUT it would rely on “snapshots”
               a. snapshot would be created every X days (I was thinking about X=10)
               b. they would contain information about state (of accounts), but would drop all the history
               c. snapshots (for new clients) could be propagated in torrent-like fashion.

1.1 Agree, storage must be transactional secure

1.2 lightweight browser, maybe I do not get the point, but this is already available...IMHO GUI not very nice or attractive and not easy to unerstand
@UF could you ask to elaborate on this a little bit more

For people, that don't need any client at all, and wallet is all they would need.
Either JS-only client, that could:

• retrieve list of transactions from any "public server"
• sign transactions and send them to one of the "public servers"

or small app that would do that.

1.3 In principle I would agree, snapshots which get propagate are open for attacks and easy targets to fake snapshots

not to repeat myself, read what's below and think about it, I think it would be possible to do that (and do that securely):

Do I understand this correctly that the blockchain would only be stored on the "server version" of the client and not by every client ? I'm not sure that's a good idea. I don't know how people would feel about that and also doesn't that make the whole thing less secure especially in the beginning where fewer servers are running ? Say 10 servers are runnin initially. What if i whip up 20 VMs on my computer and make them servers....could I then not controll the network ? Not to mention that if the client doesn't hold the blockchain mim attackes could to a crapload of damage especially if coordinated well.

What's the point of having outdated snapshots in the client ? So the update from the DBs won't take as long ?

Nope, you don't need whole chain for security purposes.

Also 'normal' clients would also be part of the network.
They just wouldn't store whole history, only those snapshots + blockchain history since last snapshot till present.
Most people don't need whole history anyway (i.e. compare to btc, where download of whole the blockchain takes days if not weeks...)

When you would receive initial snapshot, there would be additional step of verification,
that the snapshot you've received is actually CORRECT one (there are number of ways this could be done),
to make sure the peers from which you've received it are not EVIL ones.

[Silicium]

Yes, this is one of the biggest problems. It disrupts the whole idea of equality, fairness and stuff But it can be changed I don't know how at the moment.
Maybe the fee should be divided equally to everyone?
That would attract more users.

I agree, but the problem is that if I have a million NEM, I could open up 1,000,000 NEM wallet and put 1 NEM in each and receive 99,999,999 more share of the fee than everyone else. I don't see how we could get around that a side from rigid account control or minimum balance, but even then, people would find way around that.

I think the most frustrating part of NXT for small account was to see the next block could be forged in 325 days 12h 22min. I didn't look at the NXT code yet, so I don't know if this is possible, but if we could introduce fraction, we could pay divide the fee amongst all NEM user based on the ratio of money the have.

So, i we divide 1/4,000,000,000 we get 0.00000000025. This mean that for each NEM of fee, every user would receive 0.00000000025 NEM for each NEM they own. If we decide that the smallest unit is 0.00000001 NEM, we would then have to wait until 40 NEM in fee has been collected before distributing 0.00000001 NEM to everyone for every  NEM that they own.

Anyway, just an idea 

Cheers

OMG your idea is even worse than mine 
This way you don't even have to create 1 million wallets to get the coins:)
Cheers

That's kinda the point It's actually the same think as the current distribution NXT distribution scheme, but instead of having 0.00000001 chance of forging 1 NEM, your receive 0.00000001 NEM. In the long run, it should end-up being the same.

I don't think my idea is practical anyway, so the point is moot  

Anyway, I agree with you that distribution is a problem!

[gimre]

To elaborate a little more on those "snapshots" thingy:

• every client would create such snapshot on it's own every X blocks (i.e. every 20000 blocks)
• Network itself would establish, how does the snapshot looks like (basically generate few hashes and verify between peers)
• Usually clients would have snapshots saved on drive, so no need to download them
• When new client would connect it would download snapshots in torrent-like fashion
• after downloading, he would calculate hashes, and verify it with the network
• In worst case, there's chance that he would connect only with EVIL nodes, that for some reason wanted to fool him
• (but if it's new client, for sure some "public servers" were on his list of peers, and they would say his hashes don't match the established ones)

Ofc, it wouldn't be easy to do, And I am also not sure if it's good idea, but I think it's interesting.

There are at least two advantages of it:

• "normal" clients, don't have to be bothered with setting up DB,
• low memory and storage footprint

[SKNO1]

I do not understand this system. I have even a share but what:

- Makes NEM from?
- For what is NEM?
- Which raises NEM from over the other 100 Coins?
-where NEM seeks to distinguish against Nxt?
-what is the purpose of NEM?

Another aspect:

I would like to see if NEM knows where it wants to do a fundraiser.

It would be cool if each shareholder $ 100 for a huge advertising campaign donate that has not seen the world before

Sounds crazy? YES but it works! For all!

[utopianfuture]

Quick update: the stakeholder list is updated to the end of page 90- registration thread 1. So if you just reserved your spot in the second registration thread, then your account has not been added to the list.

But here is the interesting thing: the google doc stakeholder list I made is not the original stakeholder list; the original stakeholder list is the registration thread itself. Anyone can do the due diligence and re-create the stakeholder list from the registration thread according of the pre-defined rules. The google doc list I am making has to be validated by the registration thread which is the our only social contracts to stakeholders.

So if you have your post and payment in a certain position in the registration thread, then that would be the only proof you need to be added in the list if I somehow miss it in the first try. The google doc ist would be rechecked against the registration thread once more when the fundraising is over to make sure there is no discrepancy and mistake.

Thanks for supporting NEM.

Up,

[utopianfuture]

I do not understand this system. I have even a share but what:

- Makes NEM from?
- For what is NEM?
- Which raises NEM from over the other 100 Coins?
-where NEM seeks to distinguish against Nxt?
-what is the purpose of NEM?

Another aspect:

I would like to see if NEM knows where it wants to do a fundraiser.

It would be cool if each shareholder $ 100 for a huge advertising campaign donate that has not seen the world before

Sounds crazy? YES but it works! For all!

Here is the  fundamental thing I can see in NEM in a next few months. NEM would be the first pure POS blockchain that starts with a huge and equal user-base right from the start.

Another thing: I believe that NEM's development team can deliver a very solid written from the ground code bases that allows for superior features that have not been implemented anywhere else. Stay tuned on this front because there will be many updates in the futures.

Another thing: I think the NEM's initial incentive design would be very appealing to many developers and helpers so that many talented people would come to help us.

Last thing: I believe in transparency, community building, equality and open source community . NEM embody all of these ideas in a form of a cryptocurrency.

[freigeist]

Quick update: the stakeholder list is updated to the end of page 90- registration thread 1. So if you just reserved your spot in the second registration thread, then your account has not been added to the list.

But here is the interesting thing: the google doc stakeholder list I made is not the original stakeholder list; the original stakeholder list is the registration thread itself. Anyone can do the due diligence and re-create the stakeholder list from the registration thread according of the pre-defined rules. The google doc list I am making has to be validated by the registration thread which is the our only social contracts to stakeholders.

So if you have your post and payment in a certain position in the registration thread, then that would be the only proof you need to be added in the list if I somehow miss it in the first try. The google doc ist would be rechecked against the registration thread once more when the fundraising is over to make sure there is no discrepancy and mistake.

Thanks for supporting NEM.

Up,

Sorry I haven't understood very well the explanation here?
Do I need only to make a post somewhere in some thread
to be included in this list
or do I need to send some btc or NXT to get on the list?

[utopianfuture]

Quick update: the stakeholder list is updated to the end of page 90- registration thread 1. So if you just reserved your spot in the second registration thread, then your account has not been added to the list.

But here is the interesting thing: the google doc stakeholder list I made is not the original stakeholder list; the original stakeholder list is the registration thread itself. Anyone can do the due diligence and re-create the stakeholder list from the registration thread according of the pre-defined rules. The google doc list I am making has to be validated by the registration thread which is the our only social contracts to stakeholders.

So if you have your post and payment in a certain position in the registration thread, then that would be the only proof you need to be added in the list if I somehow miss it in the first try. The google doc ist would be rechecked against the registration thread once more when the fundraising is over to make sure there is no discrepancy and mistake.

Thanks for supporting NEM.

Up,

Sorry I haven't understood very well the explanation here?
Do I need only to make a post somewhere in some thread
to be included in this list
or do I need to send some btc or NXT to get on the list?

Post + conditions (change every 10 pages) such as paying designated fee or promoting NEM in someway. Your post + proof of satisfying conditions means you have reserved a stake spot.

[nxtvisa]

sent  0.035bTC  ac9294acc0c0a7b9d95fb4647862872af88e46a5f94bc7e7dc84632307b4948c  https://blockchain.info/address/1Lk5Paws9T1YpoSeLeZT7ZeSQKW7UNq4TJ  Thanks

[freigeist]

Post + conditions (change every 10 pages) such as paying designated fee or promoting NEM in someway. Your post + proof of satisfying conditions means you have reserved a stake spot.

OK done!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=440185.msg4850100#msg4850100

Put me on the list!
Thanks.

[jkoil]

I do not understand this system. I have even a share but what:

- Makes NEM from?
- For what is NEM?
- Which raises NEM from over the other 100 Coins?
-where NEM seeks to distinguish against Nxt?
-what is the purpose of NEM?

Another aspect:

I would like to see if NEM knows where it wants to do a fundraiser.

It would be cool if each shareholder $ 100 for a huge advertising campaign donate that has not seen the world before

Sounds crazy? YES but it works! For all!

Here is the  fundamental thing I can see in NEM in a next few months. NEM would be the first pure POS blockchain that starts with a huge and equal user-base right from the start.

Another thing: I believe that NEM's development team can deliver a very solid written from the ground code bases that allows for superior features that have not been implemented anywhere else. Stay tuned on this front because there will be many updates in the futures.

Another thing: I think the NEM's initial incentive design would be very appealing to many developers and helpers so that many talented people would come to help us.

Last thing: I believe in transparency, community building, equality and open source community . NEM embody all of these ideas in a form of a cryptocurrency.

I've heard criticism and doubts:
 . the code is not public, so cannot be trusted
 . there is not enough devs, look ethereum. they have 10 - 12 developers
 . the invested money can fly away easily after the project crashes in may or june.

What should be answered to those?

[patmast3r]

I do not understand this system. I have even a share but what:

- Makes NEM from?
- For what is NEM?
- Which raises NEM from over the other 100 Coins?
-where NEM seeks to distinguish against Nxt?
-what is the purpose of NEM?

Another aspect:

I would like to see if NEM knows where it wants to do a fundraiser.

It would be cool if each shareholder $ 100 for a huge advertising campaign donate that has not seen the world before

Sounds crazy? YES but it works! For all!

Here is the  fundamental thing I can see in NEM in a next few months. NEM would be the first pure POS blockchain that starts with a huge and equal user-base right from the start.

Another thing: I believe that NEM's development team can deliver a very solid written from the ground code bases that allows for superior features that have not been implemented anywhere else. Stay tuned on this front because there will be many updates in the futures.

Another thing: I think the NEM's initial incentive design would be very appealing to many developers and helpers so that many talented people would come to help us.

Last thing: I believe in transparency, community building, equality and open source community . NEM embody all of these ideas in a form of a cryptocurrency.

I've heard criticism and doubts:
 . the code is not public, so cannot be trusted
 . there is not enough devs, look ethereum. they have 10 - 12 developers
 . the invested money can fly away easily after the project crashes in may or june.

What should be answered to those?

1. The code for NEM isn't even finished yet.
2. It's about quality not quantity.
3. How is that different from any other project ? That buy in is quite low as well. If you're not willing to risk 300NXT then you shouldn't be investing in cryptos anyway. Everything could potentially fail.

[utopianfuture]

I do not understand this system. I have even a share but what:

- Makes NEM from?
- For what is NEM?
- Which raises NEM from over the other 100 Coins?
-where NEM seeks to distinguish against Nxt?
-what is the purpose of NEM?

Another aspect:

I would like to see if NEM knows where it wants to do a fundraiser.

It would be cool if each shareholder $ 100 for a huge advertising campaign donate that has not seen the world before

Sounds crazy? YES but it works! For all!

Here is the  fundamental thing I can see in NEM in a next few months. NEM would be the first pure POS blockchain that starts with a huge and equal user-base right from the start.

Another thing: I believe that NEM's development team can deliver a very solid written from the ground code bases that allows for superior features that have not been implemented anywhere else. Stay tuned on this front because there will be many updates in the futures.

Another thing: I think the NEM's initial incentive design would be very appealing to many developers and helpers so that many talented people would come to help us.

Last thing: I believe in transparency, community building, equality and open source community . NEM embody all of these ideas in a form of a cryptocurrency.

I've heard criticism and doubts:
 . the code is not public, so cannot be trusted
 . there is not enough devs, look ethereum. they have 10 - 12 developers
 . the invested money can fly away easily after the project crashes in may or june.

What should be answered to those?

1. It should be clear that we are in an exploratory mode, so no code for now but NEM's codes will be public when they are available.
2. Stay tuned on this front because more updates are coming. But Ethereum is an entirely different animal. While Ethereum is a very ambitious project, at this point it is not much different from NEM in the development milestones.
3. Invested money goes nowhere until we launch the genesis block. Development fund up to that point comes from development stakes and my personal fund if needed.  

[zhangjinfang2008]

send 0.03btc  e5ed6fd0db2e1eef6f3dd057f096de014afcb77da2f76915f33aafd501c31ec5

https://blockchain.info/zh-cn/tx/e5ed6fd0db2e1eef6f3dd057f096de014afcb77da2f76915f33aafd501c31ec5


Reissue 0.01btc    faedf854b641eeb59344240254e99681e58dd3e9b83ec9e612f0b4ecd7da392e

[utopianfuture]

send 0.03btc  e5ed6fd0db2e1eef6f3dd057f096de014afcb77da2f76915f33aafd501c31ec5

https://blockchain.info/zh-cn/tx/e5ed6fd0db2e1eef6f3dd057f096de014afcb77da2f76915f33aafd501c31ec5

Hi you need to post in the registration thread. not here.

[jkoil]

I've heard criticism and doubts:
 . the code is not public, so cannot be trusted
 . there is not enough devs, look ethereum. they have 10 - 12 developers
 . the invested money can fly away easily after the project crashes in may or june.

What should be answered to those?

1. The code for NEM isn't even finished yet.
2. It's about quality not quantity.
3. How is that different from any other project ? That buy in is quite low as well. If you're not willing to risk 300NXT then you shouldn't be investing in cryptos anyway. Everything could potentially fail.

1. It should be clear that we are in an exploratory mode, so no code for now but NEM's codes will be public when they are available.
2. Stay tuned on this front because more updates are coming. But Ethereum is an entirely different animal. While Ethereum is a very ambitious project, at this point it is not much different from NEM in the development milestones.
3. Invested money goes nowhere until we launch the genesis block. Development fund up to that point comes from development stakes and my personal fund if needed.  

Thanks for both answers ... will be forwarded 

About the codes: as NEM follows NXT, it has been critized NXT that its code is not yet public. Or the public code is not working. Clearly some details or news have not been understood, eg. about the injected flaws in the NXT code.

 

[patmast3r]

I've heard criticism and doubts:
 . the code is not public, so cannot be trusted
 . there is not enough devs, look ethereum. they have 10 - 12 developers
 . the invested money can fly away easily after the project crashes in may or june.

What should be answered to those?

1. The code for NEM isn't even finished yet.
2. It's about quality not quantity.
3. How is that different from any other project ? That buy in is quite low as well. If you're not willing to risk 300NXT then you shouldn't be investing in cryptos anyway. Everything could potentially fail.

1. It should be clear that we are in an exploratory mode, so no code for now but NEM's codes will be public when they are available.
2. Stay tuned on this front because more updates are coming. But Ethereum is an entirely different animal. While Ethereum is a very ambitious project, at this point it is not much different from NEM in the development milestones.
3. Invested money goes nowhere until we launch the genesis block. Development fund up to that point comes from development stakes and my personal fund if needed.  

Thanks for both answers ... will be forwarded 

About the codes: as NEM follows NXT, it has been critized NXT that its code is not yet public. Or the public code is not working. Clearly some details or news have not been understood, eg. about the injected flaws in the NXT code.

It doesn't matter if the code that has been officially released to the public is flawed incomplete or whatever. NXT uses non obfuscated Java which means that anyone can look at the most recent clients code by simply decompiling the jar.
None of the clones are using the "open source code". If they are they are they are doing it wrong
Of course NXT will make quite a "jump" with 0.6.0 because the code has been refactored which is why they are holding it back for as long as possible - so the clones can't profit from that refactor.

[-Greed-]

I see fast growth here compared to other Nxt clones. Keep it up!