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Author Topic: [NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread  (Read 661428 times)
utopianfuture (OP)
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February 02, 2014, 02:07:07 PM
 #481

Do they accept Paypal? PM'd them and no answer

I am working on how-to so it is not operational right now. Thanks.

UP


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patmast3r
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February 02, 2014, 02:10:12 PM
 #482

I'm just wondering if the ticker symbol of the coin should be tweaked a bit. I saw this mentioned in another thread... I think the name of the currency might sound better if it was "nemo" coin.

New Economy MOvement

No Envy MOvement

It still works and sounds better.

yeah, and sound like kids toy...

NEMO reminds me too much of the kids movie. I like the movie but it's not a good association for a supposed currency.
NEM sounds more serious and genuine.

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February 02, 2014, 02:41:18 PM
 #483

Regarding the forging algorithm. Are we still exploring options to improve this over NXT?

I am convinced that the design of the forging algorithm is one of the major things that may convice people to invest in NEM!

For this I believe the goal of the forging concept should be:

1. To attract as many people as possible to invest in NEM (preferrably even small amounts)
2. To make NEM more than just an investment

What do I mean by that:

Well I guess we can all agree that the forging algorithm of NXT does not attract the regular joes to the game. I believe this is  exactly what we should aim for with NEM because there are alot of regular joes  Cheesy  This would also make it a more stable currency compared to when the majority of users are investors that only aim to make money with it.
Once the currency has proved to be stable you will establish trust. I believe a lack of thrust is the major argument merchants still have against cryptocurrencies. (and obviously the legal grey area debate but this can not be countered by the design of NEM  Wink )
If we could make a concept that will attracht merchants (obviously this is long term thinking), I suppose this will benifit NEM hugely!


Please let's debate on this and share some thoughts.

As long as the transparent forging isn't affected I think we can think about doing things differently. I always thought about taking the "age" of coins into account like I think peercoin does.

Based on the post below I suppose things will be different:

Mining is called forging with NXT.
It is advertised that transparent forging is one of the key factors and differentiators of NXT.

I tried to understand the algorithm behind that forging mechanism. I did not find anything (except looking into the decompiled code).

IMHO: NXT concept of forging does not follow the approach of 'fairness'; it generates GODS and GIANTS. The more NXT you have the more NXT you will receive. This approach does not support the concept behind NEM.

A much more flexible and less chunk building algorithm has to be developed/defined.

Any suggestions / ideas?


Further, I think transparent forging can not be touched so that is out of the question.
The idea about taking the "age" of coins into account can be interesting if you mean the age since last transaction.

This would certainly reward new/active users without creating GODS and GIANTS, so if something like that can be achieved I believe this is benificial.



utopianfuture (OP)
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February 02, 2014, 02:46:33 PM
 #484

Regarding the forging algorithm. Are we still exploring options to improve this over NXT?

I am convinced that the design of the forging algorithm is one of the major things that may convice people to invest in NEM!

For this I believe the goal of the forging concept should be:

1. To attract as many people as possible to invest in NEM (preferrably even small amounts)
2. To make NEM more than just an investment

What do I mean by that:

Well I guess we can all agree that the forging algorithm of NXT does not attract the regular joes to the game. I believe this is  exactly what we should aim for with NEM because there are alot of regular joes  Cheesy  This would also make it a more stable currency compared to when the majority of users are investors that only aim to make money with it.
Once the currency has proved to be stable you will establish trust. I believe a lack of thrust is the major argument merchants still have against cryptocurrencies. (and obviously the legal grey area debate but this can not be countered by the design of NEM  Wink )
If we could make a concept that will attracht merchants (obviously this is long term thinking), I suppose this will benifit NEM hugely!


Please let's debate on this and share some thoughts.

As long as the transparent forging isn't affected I think we can think about doing things differently. I always thought about taking the "age" of coins into account like I think peercoin does.

Based on the post below I suppose things will be different:

Mining is called forging with NXT.
It is advertised that transparent forging is one of the key factors and differentiators of NXT.

I tried to understand the algorithm behind that forging mechanism. I did not find anything (except looking into the decompiled code).

IMHO: NXT concept of forging does not follow the approach of 'fairness'; it generates GODS and GIANTS. The more NXT you have the more NXT you will receive. This approach does not support the concept behind NEM.

A much more flexible and less chunk building algorithm has to be developed/defined.

Any suggestions / ideas?


Further, I think transparent forging can not be touched so that is out of the question.
The idea about taking the "age" of coins into account can be interesting if you mean the age since last transaction.

This would certainly reward new/active users without creating GODS and GIANTS, so if something like that can be achieved I believe this is benificial.



About the forging mechanism, here is my observation. NXT's forging incomes mainly go to big accounts with 5 millions or more, especially to a few of 30 million + accounts.
NEM won't have that kind of forging fee concentration thanks to the initial distribution design. I would suggest we stick with the traditional forging mechanism as in NXT as well as PPC. It would save us a lot of valuable times to invent a new forging mechanism that is not be gamed or attacked easily.


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mthcl
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February 02, 2014, 02:49:21 PM
 #485

NEMO reminds me too much of the kids movie. I like the movie but it's not a good association for a supposed currency.

For me, NEMO associates with Jules Verne   Smiley
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February 02, 2014, 02:50:02 PM
 #486


Further, I think transparent forging can not be touched so that is out of the question.
The idea about taking the "age" of coins into account can be interesting if you mean the age since last transaction.

This would certainly reward new/active users without creating GODS and GIANTS, so if something like that can be achieved I believe this is benificial.


Taking the age of coins is a good idea imo  Smiley Also a forging rate ceiling at a given amount of coins would be good also, thus a forging rate a little more efficient until this ceiling, but it's probably too hard to implement.
utopianfuture (OP)
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February 02, 2014, 02:55:14 PM
 #487

Some updates on Reddit direct advertising. As it turns out Reddit advertising demand greatly exceeds the supply of advertising slots in the Bitcoin sub-reddit.  

I managed to book 1 day slot from 2/28 to 3/1 on the Bitcoin sub-reddit; fully paid for and ready to go.
The title is "A new kind of cryptocurrency. The first egalitarian coin. Join NEM to change the world " with the link go directly to our front page.

Litecoin sub-reddit is also fully booked even further out. So I turned to the Dogecoin sub-reddit. This ad would run from 2/5 to 2/7 for two days. The title is "Envy no more. The first egalitarian coin. Join the movement. NEM registration is open" with the link go directly to our front page.

These are trial runs and funded by my personal budget so we will have to see how effective they are. I will stop the "share the word to get a stake" after page 20 until 2 day of Doge sub-reddit advertising is over.  We don't even know if the fundraising is still open on 2/28 when we have the Bitcoin subreddit advertising but at that point I expect that we would have much more details about NEM development plan and a good front site for NEM.

All of these ad are subject to approval by Reddit so nothing is certain yet.



All these ads have been approved by Reddit and would go online according to the schedule. So we are going to bombard Doge reddit headquarter in two day starting 2/5 Smiley
I will probably put some more ads in some other sub-reddits between 2/8 -2/15.


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jkoil
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February 02, 2014, 03:41:59 PM
 #488


About the forging mechanism, here is my observation. NXT's forging incomes mainly go to big accounts with 5 millions or more, especially to a few of 30 million + accounts.

also I have supposed that: rich get richer - unless they "give" away a lot of tx fees.
But that whole issue is just a guess until there is enough data...
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February 02, 2014, 03:46:11 PM
 #489


About the forging mechanism, here is my observation. NXT's forging incomes mainly go to big accounts with 5 millions or more, especially to a few of 30 million + accounts.
NEM won't have that kind of forging fee concentration thanks to the initial distribution design. I would suggest we stick with the traditional forging mechanism as in NXT as well as PPC. It would save us a lot of valuable times to invent a new forging mechanism that is not be gamed or attacked easily.


It's true about the concentration, so this may not be worth the effort.
So apart from the distribution design, are there any things we can do to make NEM more attractive than other coins ?   
utopianfuture (OP)
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February 02, 2014, 03:48:56 PM
 #490


About the forging mechanism, here is my observation. NXT's forging incomes mainly go to big accounts with 5 millions or more, especially to a few of 30 million + accounts.
NEM won't have that kind of forging fee concentration thanks to the initial distribution design. I would suggest we stick with the traditional forging mechanism as in NXT as well as PPC. It would save us a lot of valuable times to invent a new forging mechanism that is not be gamed or attacked easily.


It's true about the concentration, so this may not be worth the effort.
So apart from the distribution design, are there any things we can do to make NEM more attractive than other coins ?   

Stay tuned. Development plan will be published in a week or so.


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February 02, 2014, 04:08:51 PM
 #491

As you can see, I have a new bitcointalk account with no previous posts. I registered especially because of this threat and to eventually became a stakeholder. I had no need for a bitcointalk-account before because I usually never write anything in the inet.
After all the sockpuppet discussions I am not sure, that it is a good idea, to just send the 0.045 BTC and risk to be seen as a sockpuppet-account and eventually getting disquallified. So is it save to just send the BTC and post in the registration threat? What is happening with my 0.045 BTC if the dev decides I am just a sockpuppet-account?
 

Please excuse my probably bad english.

BetaNEM: TDHJCC-EDXVEM-CLENVM-RHCGPG-I2PG2P-3MJWDX-ZMHN
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February 02, 2014, 04:14:42 PM
 #492

As you can see, I have a new bitcointalk account with no previous posts. I registered especially because of this threat and to eventually became a stakeholder. I had no need for a bitcointalk-account before because I usually never write anything in the inet.
After all the sockpuppet discussions I am not sure, that it is a good idea, to just send the 0.045 BTC and risk to be seen as a sockpuppet-account and eventually getting disquallified. So is it save to just send the BTC and post in the registration threat? What is happening with my 0.045 BTC if the dev decides I am just a sockpuppet-account?
 

Please excuse my probably bad english.

Don't worry!  Smiley

With the advertising on reddit most people will have new accounts as from now. That's the whole intention.
You will not be disqualified because you are a new user!

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February 02, 2014, 04:19:57 PM
 #493

Go with a wallet.dat setup for normal users.  Power users can click on the brain icon and enter in their own high-strength passphrase after being warned of the importance of a truly high-powered passphrase.

This sounds pretty similar to what Ripple does but better.
When you create a Ripple wallet you can choose the store it at Payward (brain) or only in your local browser (wallet.dat). What makes this worse than a real wallet.dat i.e. a local file is that as soon as you clear the browsers cache your wallet is gone Smiley

For the initial release, I'm thinking of supporting only a wallet.dat type setup. But, it should be easy enough to add "brain" wallet functionality around that in future iterations. Sound reasonable?

NEM - nem.io
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February 02, 2014, 04:24:19 PM
 #494

If I look at NXT right now there is only a brainwallet and I can't store it locally. If I wan't to forge I need to have my node running all the time.
What If I could store my wallet locally but it would also be accessible from other clients, as long as my node is running ? That way you would have an offline wallet, but you could make it accessible remotly if you need it to by runing your own node.

The client that I wan't to access my wallet from would then have to have my "home node" in his peers but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

What is the benefit of this over a "brain" wallet? I assume your "home node" is your forging node, right? So, it will need to be online for forging. While you could add it to the peers lists of your clients, a hacker could add it to the peers lists of their clients too. So, I'm not sure if there is an advantage?

NEM - nem.io
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February 02, 2014, 04:53:01 PM
 #495

Regarding the forging algorithm. Are we still exploring options to improve this over NXT?

I am convinced that the design of the forging algorithm is one of the major things that may convice people to invest in NEM!

For this I believe the goal of the forging concept should be:

1. To attract as many people as possible to invest in NEM (preferrably even small amounts)
2. To make NEM more than just an investment

What do I mean by that:

Well I guess we can all agree that the forging algorithm of NXT does not attract the regular joes to the game. I believe this is  exactly what we should aim for with NEM because there are alot of regular joes  Cheesy  This would also make it a more stable currency compared to when the majority of users are investors that only aim to make money with it.
Once the currency has proved to be stable you will establish trust. I believe a lack of thrust is the major argument merchants still have against cryptocurrencies. (and obviously the legal grey area debate but this can not be countered by the design of NEM  Wink )
If we could make a concept that will attracht merchants (obviously this is long term thinking), I suppose this will benifit NEM hugely!

Please let's debate on this and share some thoughts.

Yes. The development team is currently having discussions around the forging algorithm. There are a few main considerations of any forging algorithm:
(1) Is it "fair"?
(2) How can people cheat it?
(3) Who will it encourage people to forge?

As long as the transparent forging isn't affected I think we can think about doing things differently. I always thought about taking the "age" of coins into account like I think peercoin does.
(1) Aging will reward coins that have most recently been transferred.
(2) One person transferring coins between N accounts.
(3) Only people with recently transferred coins will be encouraged to forge.

Also a forging rate ceiling at a given amount of coins would be good also, thus a forging rate a little more efficient until this ceiling, but it's probably too hard to implement.
We could put a cap on the maximum number of coins in an account that contribute to forging:
(1) Large accounts can be split up into smaller accounts, but they will have to pay fees to do so. So, this would be "fairer" than NXT.
(2) One person splitting up their accounts.
(3) Large account holders.

Or we could have unweighted forging where each account has equal forging power:
(1) Large accounts can be split up into smaller accounts, but they will have to pay fees to do so. So, this would be "fairer" than NXT.
(2) One person splitting up their accounts.
(3) Everyone or no one Smiley.

Or we could have forging bands where a certain level of coins would put you in a group.
For example, forging groups could be:
- Accounts > 4M
- Accounts [1M, 4M)
- Accounts [500K, 1M)
- Accounts [100K, 500K)
- Accounts [1K, 100K)
- Accounts [1, 1K)
Each subsequent block could come from a different group. Assuming less concentration at the top, that would encourage asset consolidation up to 4M and then a splitting of assets less than that.
(1) Bands with less accounts would be more desirable
(2) As people move to less occupied bands, the bands will reach an equilibrium where they all have ~ the same number of accounts
(3) Everyone or no one

It's just something I thought up of now, so I haven't fully thought it through.

NEM - nem.io
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February 02, 2014, 04:55:04 PM
 #496

@utopianfuture

Here's an idea.  Use it as you wish.

Reserve some percentage of initial stake as a forging pool bounty.  Upon release of NEX, automate the account in which this is stored to generate transactions solely for the purpose of rewarding active forgers with fees.

Adds a bit of a 'proof-of-work' concept for rewarding those who participate in the network.

It also could give nice credit card style marketing, like "use NEM for X days with no fees."

NEM - nem.io
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February 02, 2014, 04:58:56 PM
 #497

Hi,
As many of the people here; I miss the train of being early investor at NXT and, although I consider NXT a brilliant concept; I also think that coin distribution is, at least, weird. I guess, this is the main problem that we are seeing now. The market can be easily manipulated by early investors. That is the main reason why I get so enthusiastic when I noticed this initiative, and I haven't doubt to pay 400 NXT. I also created this account specially for that and I have no plans to create more accounts or being a sockpuppet.
I read that utopianfuture is working on it; but do you already have an estimation of how many stakeholders are we at this moment? I have the impression that there is a lot of enthusiasm and the fund raising process is progressing at great speed (in about 15 hours, I saw like 5-6 pages more of people inscribing it). Is this correct? Based on that, is there already any estimation of when the pool will be closed?



   

New Economy Movement (N.E.M.) Supporter
http://www.ournem.com
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February 02, 2014, 05:25:34 PM
 #498


Yes. The development team is currently having discussions around the forging algorithm. There are a few main considerations of any forging algorithm:
(1) Is it "fair"?
(2) How can people cheat it?
(3) Who will it encourage people to forge?

As long as the transparent forging isn't affected I think we can think about doing things differently. I always thought about taking the "age" of coins into account like I think peercoin does.
(1) Aging will reward coins that have most recently been transferred.
(2) One person transferring coins between N accounts.
(3) Only people with recently transferred coins will be encouraged to forge.


I think you missunderstood.
I mean the "oldest" coins should be more valuable in terms of forging power than "young" coins. So it should be the exact oposite of what you described.
If I have coins and I don't do anything with them for say a week I'm more likely to forge a new block than someone who has just transfered his coins. Once a coin has forged a block it's age is reset so that noone has an incentive to simply hoard his coins forever. Like I said I think that's the POS implementaion of PeerCoin i think.

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February 02, 2014, 05:33:58 PM
 #499

Hi,
As many of the people here; I miss the train of being early investor at NXT and, although I consider NXT a brilliant concept; I also think that coin distribution is, at least, weird. I guess, this is the main problem that we are seeing now. The market can be easily manipulated by early investors. That is the main reason why I get so enthusiastic when I noticed this initiative, and I haven't doubt to pay 400 NXT. I also created this account specially for that and I have no plans to create more accounts or being a sockpuppet.
I read that utopianfuture is working on it; but do you already have an estimation of how many stakeholders are we at this moment? I have the impression that there is a lot of enthusiasm and the fund raising process is progressing at great speed (in about 15 hours, I saw like 5-6 pages more of people inscribing it). Is this correct? Based on that, is there already any estimation of when the pool will be closed?

I think we should currently be around 2k stakes. Utopian said that 4k is the max but 3k would probably be ideal. I think the registration will close down mid feb because once those ads on reddit kick in we're going to have 4k in no time.
When the distribution will happen is another matter but I suspect utopian as usual "has a plan" Smiley

PS: This "having a plan" is totally becoming a thing here. Like "there's an app for that" Smiley

upekha
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February 02, 2014, 06:27:53 PM
 #500

how about "New Equality Movement"?

NEM - New Economy Movement
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