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Author Topic: [NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread  (Read 661410 times)
Eadeqa
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February 09, 2014, 08:48:49 AM
 #1041

<rant>

Wow, watching this thread.  Disappointed in so many...
10 stakes?  25?  50???  C'mon guys!  What the F*** are you trying to pull?  Seriously!!!... little less greed, please.

Certainly appreciate trying to get your friends and family wrong, nothing wrong there.  That's what YOUR STAKE is for... distribute it, use it, share it.  Only then will NEM gain value.  Hoarding will get NEM nowhere.

If your friends and family want to be a part of the initial distribution, have them follow the simple registration procedures on their own.  If they are unable to do so, then they will not be a useful stakeholder, IMHO.  Stakeholders will need to pool together to offer bounties for effort, tip people you see doing good, organize social campaigns to get exposure, petition exchanges, etc.

STAKEHOLDERS NEED TO BE INVOLVED.

If your friends and family are so woefully incompetent that they can't register on their own, they will not be a valuable stakeholder.
</rant>

Seriously, stop with the greed.  Be a good stakeholder.  Don't kill NEM before its even born.

(Apologies to utopianfuture for venting here, I know you've got a lot to consider.  My hats off to you, sir.)



Why refund the cheaters? The rules were plain at the beginning. The cheaters tried using everyone else as fools.

FSCK EM. That is what they wanted to do to everyone else.

I disagree.  Extra funds should be returned with explanation as to why.  One stake remains.

@utopianfuture
I think you are trying to do a very noble and good thing with the stake distribution.  Clearly, it has gotten out of hand and people are taking advantage of your generous offering.  At this point, people are becoming wise to mixing and will be more difficult to perform analysis on any new registrants.  Therefore, I suggest closing registration immediately and perform a thorough taint analysis on all registrations received.

Distribution is wide enough, and registration has lasted long enough.  Vet the current list with the best analysis you can and ensure the integrity of the process.

Best regards.

Says the guy who mixed the coins for all his stakes.

JackNeedles just wants to increase his % share by taking away other people's stakes.

As soon as possible I will publication my list of sockpuppet accounts. I would like to ask you don't worry about those people whose try to mixing their addresses. I have been working to identify them. There are other ways to catch them. I hope you understand why i don't give you more details.



What would be nice would be that you keep the money of all sock puppets who registered with more than 10 accounts. No need to refund them the money.

Nomi, Shan, Adnan, Noshi, Nxt, Adn Khn
NXT-GZYP-FMRT-FQ9K-3YQGS
https://github.com/Lafihh/encryptiontest
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February 09, 2014, 08:53:06 AM
 #1042

<rant>

Wow, watching this thread.  Disappointed in so many...
10 stakes?  25?  50???  C'mon guys!  What the F*** are you trying to pull?  Seriously!!!... little less greed, please.

Certainly appreciate trying to get your friends and family wrong, nothing wrong there.  That's what YOUR STAKE is for... distribute it, use it, share it.  Only then will NEM gain value.  Hoarding will get NEM nowhere.

If your friends and family want to be a part of the initial distribution, have them follow the simple registration procedures on their own.  If they are unable to do so, then they will not be a useful stakeholder, IMHO.  Stakeholders will need to pool together to offer bounties for effort, tip people you see doing good, organize social campaigns to get exposure, petition exchanges, etc.

STAKEHOLDERS NEED TO BE INVOLVED.

If your friends and family are so woefully incompetent that they can't register on their own, they will not be a valuable stakeholder.
</rant>

Seriously, stop with the greed.  Be a good stakeholder.  Don't kill NEM before its even born.

(Apologies to utopianfuture for venting here, I know you've got a lot to consider.  My hats off to you, sir.)



Why refund the cheaters? The rules were plain at the beginning. The cheaters tried using everyone else as fools.

FSCK EM. That is what they wanted to do to everyone else.

I disagree.  Extra funds should be returned with explanation as to why.  One stake remains.

@utopianfuture
I think you are trying to do a very noble and good thing with the stake distribution.  Clearly, it has gotten out of hand and people are taking advantage of your generous offering.  At this point, people are becoming wise to mixing and will be more difficult to perform analysis on any new registrants.  Therefore, I suggest closing registration immediately and perform a thorough taint analysis on all registrations received.

Distribution is wide enough, and registration has lasted long enough.  Vet the current list with the best analysis you can and ensure the integrity of the process.

Best regards.

Says the guy who mixed the coins for all his stakes.

JackNeedles just wants to increase his % share by taking away other people's stakes.

As soon as possible I will publication my list of sockpuppet accounts. I would like to ask you don't worry about those people whose try to mixing their addresses. I have been working to identify them. There are other ways to catch them. I hope you understand why i don't give you more details.



What would be nice would be that you keep the money of all sock puppets who registered with more than 10 accounts. No need to refund them the money.


From the OP: NEM stake complaints going to a separate thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=450200.0

I want to follow this thread to keep up with the latest in NEM - not endless debating about the stake issue.

Use the stake complaint thread please!
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February 09, 2014, 09:11:18 AM
 #1043

Here are some suggestions on how to improve over Nxt

(1) Don't let the user choose the passphrase by default. Brain wallet should be an advanced feature and not a default option. Generate a 256-bit random seed for the user, and save that (in encrypted form) in wallet.dat file. The user will provide the password for the encryption. Don't ever save the seed unencrypted on the hard drive, ever. Don't make that an available option.  Encryption password must be a requirement (and the user must type it twice).

(2) Make the accounts deterministic, so the user will only have to back up wallet.dat once (not like Bitcoin's QT where regular backups are required).

Basically, it should work something like this:

seed = 256-bit randomly generated and saved encrypted in wallet.dat

Account-One = Hash (seed)

If the user creates more accounts,

Account-two = Hash (Account-One + seed)
Account-three =  Hash (Account-two + seed)

etc etc .

The user can create as many accounts as they want. As long as they never lose the seed, they will be fine. No regular backups required.  

(3) Do not include any code that has anything to do with signing transaction in server code. The signing  should be client's job. That way the users who don't want to download the server software can just download a lightweight client and connect to a public node and safely use it without ever transmitting the secret seed over the internet.



Nomi, Shan, Adnan, Noshi, Nxt, Adn Khn
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February 09, 2014, 09:24:43 AM
 #1044


ping @utopianfuture,

Dear sir, I believe DaFockBro deserves the same way treatment as qgmurugan007.
We don't need such people here.

NemusExMāchinā
Catapult docs: https://docs.symbol.dev
github: https://github.com/symbol
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February 09, 2014, 09:25:14 AM
 #1045

Hello community!
I have some ideas )
1. I see that most people see NEM here as speculative investment tool. They hope to be one of the first, register few accounts, and then to make profit of selling their share to new comers. It's 100% human nature but it has nothing to do with NEM idea.
Speculative currency is not good currency in any way. If it's not a good currency it's speculative game on virtual goods and nothing more.
2. So we need to dial with that.
a) Use envy human nature to build project but
b) stabilize it as secure and not speculative tool in the future.

First of all it have sense to make participation in project "profitable" on later stages too. That's what bitcoin did - you can earn by virtual transactions (mining). We can't pay for POW and it's not good idea to have huge commissions on POS as it will stop people from transactions. How can we do this?
a) emit new coins from main account (1% per month) and send them to all stakeholders.  So for every 100 NEM in next 5 years every month you will receive 1 new NEM. You become richer. Your "profit" is stable. It's better then in bank but still reasonable. It's inflation but it's not so risky as everyone receive new money and it's not forever. On other side it's motivate people to buy more NEM as they will gain more NEMs. Think of that as global nongovernmental corporation which pays dividends to all it's citizens. Another source of dividends will be described later.
b) generate money from any other source. (will be described later.)

3, Now it's good time to think how to connect real money with virtual. Why do people are afraid of using virtual money?

a) it's not convenient for retail. Too long to wait. Not as easy ass paypass. Wallmart will never use it.  It's not secure: No way to restore stolen money. No transaction limits. No heuristic fraud protection. With mindwallet money can be stolen on your eyes and hidden inside network and thief mind. If person said he forgot pass - you will never see your money again. Government have real tools to make any cryptotrade illegal. There no ready to use solutions to make fair trade with verified parties and companies who have will to disclose their identity for legal, tax and insurance reasons. No paypal for new economy as for now. System is not going to pay taxes from transactions so governments will be really unhappy and this make crypto economy reason to change world taxation system. No more taxes on transactions and on money generation by dividends. How to source community needs in future?  As for now I think it's huge political and technical challenge.

b) it's not covered by real economy at all. It price changes so quickly as there no buffer. Some countries protect their currencies by investing in gold, dollars, euro and many other currencies. So if demand is changing they can emit new money or sell other currencies.  
But still this buffer is based on other unreal currencies. Better protection is in price real material goods. We may try to generate algorithm to create BTC/NEM buffer for some % of our economy but BTC is speculative and sometimes can bring more risk then stability. So we need to have buffer in real money.  How to make it? Sell NEMS for dollars? Almost impossible at this stage and who will organize it in decentralized economy.
We need to earn. How? Simplest answer is commission. 1% of exchange price or any real goods trade agreement should go to the cryptoeconomy as new NEM and currency which covers it.

4. We are close to the solution. How to motivate people sell real goods for NEMs? We do not need to force anybody to do so. Imagine  NEM ebay with NEM paypal who share revenue with system, contractors and generate buffer. It may look like this:
- X bought from Y laptop for 300$ in NEM auction
- NEM auction earned 5% or 15$, 10$ net income
- NEM auction buys NEMS for this 10$ in automated exchange
- and send 30% of this NEMs to X and 30% to Y, 30% to all system stakeholders proportionally to amount of their NEM, and 10% to insurance and stabilization fund.

The rule to buy NEMs for $ and share them with parties and stakeholders it's just a fair trade policy. Anybody will see is it right and decide if he want to participate and organize auction or other business with this rules. There must be free market but for the beginning main account may sell NEMS for transactions a bit cheaper then their market value to motivate people.  This way we will have "mining by trade".  We may think even harder and state that only way to get NEMS is to trade with real goods. Still we will need to protect from "virtual real transactions".
 NEM auction may pay taxes and be 100% legal.
We always have NEM auction who need NEMs and people who sell this NEMS to get $ again. But most of them will stay with NEMs to get dividends. And also we may have stabilization fund which will automatically sell $ if NEM price goes down for more then 2%.
Another security measure may be algorithm of fair exchange. Transactions must be put in query of individual NEM proposals divided to small amounts and mixed  with other peoples NEMs who want to change NEM to money too. Speed of query must be slow to point when it makes useless to try to destabilize economy to play on short selling. Everyone will loose the same amount.
This way we will pomp real transactions in the system, create stabilization fund and motivate people to earn more NEMS to receive more dividends income. People become owners of their own corporation. The more you help corporation to grow - the more revenue is sent back to you. If you destabilize it, speculate - you loose as everyone else.


What do you think?
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February 09, 2014, 10:41:34 AM
 #1046


Hello community!

I have some ideas
....
What do you think?

I think for now we need to focus on getting everything up and running community and tech wise before even thinking about NEM-PayPal or NEM-Ebay.
Don't get me wrong I thank you for puting all the thought into your ideas and they are worth looking at but I think at the current state of the project we should focus on the basics.
Let's not get ahead of ourselfs.

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February 09, 2014, 10:44:25 AM
 #1047

Hello community!
I have some ideas 

What do you think?


these are good ideas! the diversification and connection with real economy should be high priority to avoid use NEMs as just an speculative tool. I need to think a little bit more about your solution but it is good to orient the debate in that direction
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February 09, 2014, 11:02:28 AM
 #1048


Quote

I think for now we need to focus on getting everything up and running community and tech wise before even thinking about NEM-PayPal or NEM-Ebay.
Don't get me wrong I thank you for puting all the thought into your ideas and they are worth looking at but I think at the current state of the project we should focus on the basics.
Let's not get ahead of ourselfs.

Thanks for your comment )
I understand that it's task for years. But if we talk about real new economy model and not about new virtual currency we must solve or show how do we plan to solve the issues.
Issues are:
Premined distribution will be always unfair. This will lead to new clones and many people will just don't like to pay to early investors many times more then early investors payed.
Transactions must be more user friendly for everyday use and motivate to make transactions. Why to buy next cryptocoin? why it's better? why it's price will grow? why nothing better can be cloned, made so I will loose my investment coze users will switch to another cryptocurrency? How can I help system in other way then just buying more NEMs? Why is it going to be not speculative currency? Or I was wrong and this is just an experiment in creating virtual gold and listing it in exchanges for people who like to play in short transactions?

There only two things you can do to make me trust in your good intentions to change economy:
1. Emit only small amount of NEMs now
2. Promise new currency NEM v.2.0 based in some percent in NEM v 1.0 and most in emited for real goods transaction NEMS with stabilization fund and dividend ownership model

Regards, Yurij



 
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February 09, 2014, 11:13:48 AM
Last edit: February 09, 2014, 12:23:41 PM by CECVW
 #1049

This letter is for the owner of the ship Captain utopianfuture   :

First of all many thanks for starting creating this coin NEM. I registered in the first 20 pages  and I am proud to be one of your sailors without asking who you are where you are coming from or what you do with your life or if you did something wrong in your childhood.

People are asking here for your identity and even the identity of stake holders to prove they did not buy more than 1 stakes not only that they want their facebook, ip addresses etc…..These people that are  asking that are naïve or don’t work in the world of IT.

 There is a main reason Captain utopianfuture do not want to give his id, future threaths of people losing with NEM, mafia knowing Captain is making a fortune and want to kidnap one of his kids to get a reward.

People asking for facebook, yes give more details to hackers to enter your NEM account, your real name, where you live, yes give as much information so they can hack your account. Ip addresses? Yes give your ip address so they can hack into your PC!

These people asking for ID, facebook, Ip addresess, etc have not stop for a second thinking about the consecuences this can carry on and putting in danger the integrity of the individual and families.

  Now can we stop this argument about multiple accounts, Captain is working on that and some people are getting nervous knowing Captain is investigating and coming here saying they have bought 20 stakes for friends or 10 stakes for family because they don’t know how to do it! Full bullshit…you are nervous now knowing there is an investigation going on and  you will be caught up and before that happen you come here with a sick story just to avoid be refund your 10 or 20 stakes!…these people should be return their stake without hesitation Captain! I do understand a person can have 3 stakes for people he/ she really love like grandpa or mother that are quite old and will find it extremely difficult to go into buying NEXT or BTC to get into the ship as one of your sailors and wish a good retirement for the last years of life of their beloved ones, 3 stakes are reasonable, more than 3 are ENVY movement!

As a sailor of your boat I will follow not you orders or command but your leadership without hesitation, Some sailors here asked that they have their right to know what is the  situation of their investment and are very pushy and demanding in doing so,my question to them is, you just invested pennies on this and you are asking Captain full report in a way that its no nice, you are not investing your house or all your possesions and you are asking him like your life is at stake! Dear Captain this is only a suggestion never a demand, as you will always get these greedy people asking  greedy impatient question of where their pennies are gone and when they will become precious stones or gold, why don’t you create a thread with  daily progress of the coin and what have been done even if that day has been done nothing or very little, some sailors will always be rebellious and question his captain.  A good Ship can only reach good port with good sailors and not with traitors or questioning the leadership of their captain, if some of you come here to question him I would suggest Captain to create a thread for those ones that want to leave the ship and  moaning about the pennies investment they have done and the legitimacy skills and trust for the captain to navigate this ship. Also I notice some sailors want to change your rules, NO! We join this trip knowing the rules, if you joined you know we go to a port call NEM, if you want to go to a different port I suggest you need to change the ship!

As a loyal sailor I would like to ask one question, my concerned is that when you launch the coin there might be 4 sharks that are ready there to buy 40 per cent of the coins at the beginning when is cheap and then the coin will be a manipulated by these rich sharks that will become richer and can afford to take control of your coin and repeatedly manipulating the market to get more coins and NEM then will become like any other ALT, I guess there is nothing you can do to stop these sharks taking ownership of the NEM ship.

(before any sailor start bitching about  how I write or express myself I am not an  English spoken sailor)

Regards,

Your faithful Sailor

⏲⏳⏲⏳⏲     WIRELESS COIN     ⏲⏳⏲⏳⏲
══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
⏲  FORUM THREADGITHUBTWITTERSLACK 1 #time-travellers-yet/#wlcSLACK 2 #21_tickets/#wlc  ⏲
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February 09, 2014, 11:24:54 AM
 #1050

Hello community!
I have some ideas 

What do you think?


these are good ideas! the diversification and connection with real economy should be high priority to avoid use NEMs as just an speculative tool. I need to think a little bit more about your solution but it is good to orient the debate in that direction

Thanks for your support ) I think it's nice idea to start discussion about this. It's easy to build such network if we will make stable (protected from falling down, slowly growing) currency and real time smartphone transactions. You can use it in automated convenience shops and retail shop transactions.   It will be a little harder to create paypal for crypto transactions. Idea with NXT/NEM ratings may help with auction model but we will need real company to handle fraud insurance as paypal does. Also I think we must think about fast and slow transactions. I don't want to be able to loose all my money in seconds. I want to have transaction limits on everyday accounts and easy to use few steps verification model for really big transactions.  I am not a criminal so it's ok if to protect my money I may disclose my identity. It's even ok to send my NEMs to bank and connect it to my debit card.
Who want to discuss it?

Regards, Yurij
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February 09, 2014, 12:26:30 PM
 #1051

@ DaFockBro
I don't believe him anything^^


Exactly. 15 to 20 stakes. What a joke.

I say lets close this already. We have enough stakeholders. Everyone new is basically a sock puppet.

+1

I'm also starting to think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to close this already, surely when excluding the socketpuppets we must have over 500 different people as participants.

so the trolls want to destroy this coin by short IPO? Nxt had 61 days long IPO. To get 1.000.000 Nxt you had to send 0.02 Btc during those 61 days. Nxt is already more fair than this Cheesy
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February 09, 2014, 12:37:34 PM
Last edit: February 09, 2014, 04:44:18 PM by Coinonaer
 #1052

sorry.
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February 09, 2014, 12:39:34 PM
 #1053

Nice post yurkomik. I like your ideas very much, I too think we need a market where we can trade/buy real goods with NEM. Without a proper market, NEM is just another dead coin in the long-run( 1 yrs?)  

As of this moment, two events are likely to happen with the release of NEM
Scenario 1: NEM gets released, people start to rush to dump their coins to make a quick buck leading to a dead cypto.
Scenario 2: Most people hoard their coins for forging, unintentionally  artificially inflating price ( NXT?) but susceptible to big price volatility with the smallest trade activity,rendering the currency useless.

Money was created to facilitate trade between goods and services, with cryptos we are creating money without goods and services. 99% of all alt currencies will be dead in a year all due to lack of a market, lets make NEM the exception to the rule. We really do need participants for this experimental currency to succeed not silent stake holders.

Let me be one of the first to volunteer , My name is Pasang I own a small hotel in Bhutan. I could offer my rooms in NEM but since most of u guys are probably not in my locality it would be pointless, instead I would be willing to post 10 items for sale every month for sale priced in NEM on its release for the next four months to get the ball rolling.

I hope more of you will join me in this endeavor, We are all potential NEM coin millionaires and now it is up to us to make this million actually worth a million or just worthless digital numbers.  

 
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February 09, 2014, 12:56:43 PM
 #1054

Nice post yurkomik. I like your ideas very much, I too think we need a market where we can trade/buy real goods with NEM. Without a proper market, NEM is just another dead coin in the long-run( 1 yrs?)  

As of this moment, two events are likely to happen with the release of NEM
Scenario 1: NEM gets released, people start to rush to dump their coins to make a quick buck leading to a dead cypto.
Scenario 2: Most people hoard their coins for forging, unintentionally  artificially inflating price ( NXT?) but susceptible to big price volatility with the smallest trade activity,rendering the currency useless.

Money was created to facilitate trade between goods and services, with cryptos we are creating money without goods and services. 99% of all alt currencies will be dead in a year all due to lack of a market, lets make NEM the exception to the rule. We really do need participants for this experimental currency to succeed not silent stake holders.

Let me be one of the first to volunteer , My name is Pasang I own a small hotel in Bhutan. I could offer my rooms in NEM but since most of u guys are probably not in my locality it would be pointless, instead I would be willing to post 10 items for sale every month for sale priced in NEM on its release for the next four months to get the ball rolling.

I hope more of you will join me in this endeavor, We are all potential NEM coin millionaires and now it is up to us to make this million actually worth a million or just worthless digital numbers.  

 

Great point! This might be a bit early since no concrete technology behind NEM yet, but still we need a possibility to buy real life stuff with NEM.

Once nem lauches ill be willing to support  all retailers who start selling services/goods through nem (and I'm sure many more people will support too)!
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February 09, 2014, 01:00:10 PM
 #1055

Why is the User Coinonaer not in the stakeholder list?
He has made ​​several inquiries and its entries were deleted?
He has sent 500 Nxt see here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=440185.msg4916130 # msg4916130
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February 09, 2014, 01:10:30 PM
 #1056

THIS IS SCAM
How so? Did u find any unfulfilled promises?
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February 09, 2014, 01:21:11 PM
 #1057

How do we price goods on NEM? Do we let the market decide or should the price be set by prior consensus?

Example

1 NEM = .001 $
A can of Pepsi/Coke  = 1000 NEM
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February 09, 2014, 01:32:53 PM
 #1058

Have sent 0.04btc @ 1. February:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=440185.msg4873688#msg4873688

I'm not in the stakeholder list. Whats wrong?
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February 09, 2014, 01:35:45 PM
 #1059

How do we price goods on NEM? Do we let the market decide or should the price be set by prior consensus?
And how u gonna to bound anyone who doesn't want to follow consensus?

Free market - best way to settle price with a minimum amount of anger. Set your buy/sell price and wait for agreement - what can be better?

Anyone'd remember NEM'll be equal distributed (or rule-distributed) only before Genesis, and after that free trading'll flow in.
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February 09, 2014, 01:57:59 PM
 #1060

Yes, u are right but then who would want to trade their coins initially ?

Lets assume the price of NEM = .06 btc(Stake) /1000000=.000045 $

price of can of coke/pepsi= 22000 NEM coin Huh

We all know about the man who bought the pizza for 10000 BTC now Grin
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