[ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning

[tylerderden]

In Reply:

https://www.ethereum.org/

It does state: Ethereum can stop fraud, which it has just done with the fork of the Blockchain.

Theft is standard component in Frauds.

Nobody, has every managed to get a no-bailout policy to work, I don't think anybody is every going to get that policy to work over the long-term.

So, yeah, if you want too gamble on a no-bailout policy that nobody has ever got work, I wish you all the luck in world, because you're going to need it!

But, when it comes to my money and my time: I prefer too back new innovation and discoveries.

Not Old Hat policies, that nobody in human history has ever succeeded with.

Um....bitcoin. Mt goxd no rollback $600 each, huge market cap. The end. I'm out of here, can't converse with people who think they can change history after the fact. Or are just straight up delusional. Or just crypto illiterate. Derp a der help me mama I need a roll back. Yeah lemme know how that works out.

[thevictimofuktyranny]

In Reply:

That is today, roll the clock forward for long enough or backward far enough and you can come to any conclusion you wish.

Let's take Jan 2015 figures:

Bitcoins price $173

It is, worthless, taking a post-block halving price and citing it as indicative of long-term success.

Look at Litecoin, Block Halving price 2015 was $7.

Today, it is trading at $3.76.

When Litecoins has it's next Block Halving in 2019, it will probably be trading $10.

[Perryll]

In Reply:

Why has doing bailouts been an accepted practice in every national economy on Earth for many thousands of years?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/10/financial_bailout_would_impose.html

http://www.debate.org/opinions/have-government-bailouts-proven-to-be-beneficial-economically

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/20/editorial-government-bailouts-in-recession-do-more/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2011/03/06/necessary-bank-bailouts-harm-the-economy-wreck-the-banks/#424532db19fe

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-15155395

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/2013/09/26/study-shows-bank-bailouts-are-an-incentive-to-be-reckless

Yes, the acceptance is universal. The acceptance that bailouts are bad for the economy.

[Perryll]

Nobody, has every managed to get a no-bailout policy to work, I don't think anybody is every going to get that policy to work over the long-term.

So, yeah, if you want too gamble on a no-bailout policy that nobody has ever got work, I wish you all the luck in world, because you're going to need it!

But, when it comes to my money and my time: I prefer too back new innovation and discoveries.

Some of these, may turn out be crap, but I'm certain their going to be winners amongst in that group.

Its not worth touching Old Hat policies, that nobody in human history has ever succeeded with.

Contradict yourself much?

Nobody in human history had succeeded with 3D printing... Until they did. Now everyone is doing it.

Nobody in human history had created a cryptocurrency... Until they did. Now everyone is doing it.

[thevictimofuktyranny]

In Reply:

Most people who research the subject matter, do not argue about doing bailouts.

They argue about the different bailout strategies.

Obviously, there various types of bailout strategies that are incredibly expensive and offer opportunities to charge extra fees and commissions.

Then, there are alternative bailout strategies that are incredibly cheap to do, but offer no opportunity to charge extra fees and commissions.

The people who want the very expensive bailout strategies (that have fat fees and commissions in them), get people to not consider the cheaper bailout strategies that have (zero fees and commissions) by getting them to advocate an unworkable "Old Hat" policy of zero-bailouts policy.

This allows the expensive bailout strategies to implemented, because nobody takes the idea of a zero-bailout policy seriously.

[iCEBREAKER]

Why has doing bailouts been an accepted practice in every national economy on Earth for many thousands of years?

These are economy's are worth $77.609 trillion (estimation based on 2014 figures).

In fact: find me an economy on Earth, which has a publicly stated policy of never doing a bailout?

Your logical fallacies are:

-appeal to popularity

-argument from incredulity

Do you even realize smart contracts are a New Thing, created (like Bitcoin) in response to 1000s of years of moral hazard and tyranny of the majority?

[thevictimofuktyranny]

Why has doing bailouts been an accepted practice in every national economy on Earth for many thousands of years?

These are economy's are worth $77.609 trillion (estimation based on 2014 figures).

In fact: find me an economy on Earth, which has a publicly stated policy of never doing a bailout?

Your logical fallacies are:

-appeal to popularity

-argument from incredulity

Do you even realize smart contracts are a New Thing, created (like Bitcoin) in response to 1000s of years of moral hazard and tyranny of the majority?

Not sure, what you argument is here?

Not sure how it relates to fork requested by "The DAO"?

Nobody is discussing crypto currencies at moment, just the fork of the blockchain.

[thevictimofuktyranny]

Nobody, has every managed to get a no-bailout policy to work, I don't think anybody is every going to get that policy to work over the long-term.

So, yeah, if you want too gamble on a no-bailout policy that nobody has ever got work, I wish you all the luck in world, because you're going to need it!

But, when it comes to my money and my time: I prefer too back new innovation and discoveries.

Some of these, may turn out be crap, but I'm certain their going to be winners amongst in that group.

Its not worth touching Old Hat policies, that nobody in human history has ever succeeded with.

Contradict yourself much?

Nobody in human history had succeeded with 3D printing... Until they did. Now everyone is doing it.

Nobody in human history had created a cryptocurrency... Until they did. Now everyone is doing it.

Not sure, what you argument is here?

Not sure how it relates to fork requested by "The DAO"?

Nobody is discussing new technology, just the fork of the blockchain.

[Hueristic]

PETITION CALLING FOR MEMBERS OF THE ETHEREUM FOUNDATION/TEAM AND OTHERS (WHITE HACKERS) TO RETURN ETC TO DAO HOLDERS ADDRESSES.

SEE POST BELOW & SIGN THE PETITION.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1576396.msg15827434#msg15827434

https://www.change.org/p/ethereum-foundation-members-of-ethereum-team-white-hats-to-return-etc-to-dao-holders

If they don't then they are black hats themselves. Personally I would destroy them, tipps to the Grey.

[thevictimofuktyranny]

PETITION CALLING FOR MEMBERS OF THE ETHEREUM FOUNDATION/TEAM AND OTHERS (WHITE HACKERS) TO RETURN ETC TO DAO HOLDERS ADDRESSES.

SEE POST BELOW & SIGN THE PETITION.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1576396.msg15827434#msg15827434

https://www.change.org/p/ethereum-foundation-members-of-ethereum-team-white-hats-to-return-etc-to-dao-holders

If they don't then they are black hats themselves. Personally I would destroy them, tipps to the Grey.

Not really,

As long as "The DAO" uses those ETC to increase the price of the tokens or increases the price of ETH (fork supported by the Ethereum Foundation) then they've actually fulfilled their mandate to maximise value for their investors.

Because the benefit of such an operation, would be for the investors in "The DAO".

Obviously, this may be bad news for people who want ETC's BTC price to climb rapidly.

[iCEBREAKER]

Why has doing bailouts been an accepted practice in every national economy on Earth for many thousands of years?

These are economy's are worth $77.609 trillion (estimation based on 2014 figures).

In fact: find me an economy on Earth, which has a publicly stated policy of never doing a bailout?

Your logical fallacies are:

-appeal to popularity

-argument from incredulity

Do you even realize smart contracts are a New Thing, created (like Bitcoin) in response to 1000s of years of moral hazard and tyranny of the majority?

Not sure, what you argument is here?

Not sure how it relates to fork requested by "The DAO"?

Nobody is discussing crypto currencies at moment, just the fork of the blockchain.

Would it help if I used Latin?

"everybody has always used bailouts so the DAO should too" = argumentum ad populum

"ETH did the right thing, because what else besides the bailout could possibly work?" = argumentum ad ignorantiam

[Perryll]

Nobody, has every managed to get a no-bailout policy to work, I don't think anybody is every going to get that policy to work over the long-term.

So, yeah, if you want too gamble on a no-bailout policy that nobody has ever got work, I wish you all the luck in world, because you're going to need it!

But, when it comes to my money and my time: I prefer too back new innovation and discoveries.

Some of these, may turn out be crap, but I'm certain their going to be winners amongst in that group.

Its not worth touching Old Hat policies, that nobody in human history has ever succeeded with.

Contradict yourself much?

Nobody in human history had succeeded with 3D printing... Until they did. Now everyone is doing it.

Nobody in human history had created a cryptocurrency... Until they did. Now everyone is doing it.

Not sure, what you argument is here?

Not sure how it relates to fork requested by "The DAO"?

Nobody is discussing new technology, just the fork of the blockchain.

Your comments are appealing to logical fallacies. Fallacious points do not require disproving. They are fallacious and should be ignored, or called out at most.

Your point, "nobody has ever" was then contradicted by your point "I prefer too(sic) back new innovation and discoveries". You need to make up your mind. Either you prefer to back change or you think change is impossible. You can't have it both ways. Unless you're naive and back what you consider impossible.

Your point, "nobody has got it to work" is contradicted by your point "but I'm certain their(sic) going to be winners amongst in that group".

My argument here is that your arguments are fallacious and not very well thought out. It doesn't matter if it relates to the DAO because that's not the point I quoted. Keep up. If you are discussing the blockchain you are discussing new technology, by default. Everything we're discussing here is automatically covered by new technology. Therefore, analogies using other rising technologies make perfect sense.

Finally, your point about technological evolution being impossible was easily refuted with evidence of technological evolution that is relevant and current.

[d57heinz]

In Reply:

If, what you say is true:

Why has doing bailouts been an accepted practice in every national economy on Earth for many thousands of years?

These are economy's are worth $77.609 trillion (estimation based on 2014 figures).

In fact: find me an economy on Earth, which has a publicly stated policy of never doing a bailout?

Hahaaaa just don't get it do ya? You want bailouts ok cool head to the bank. Expecting crypto to change the rules because people make bad decisions? Not gonna happen dude, don't believe me ok, just stay tuned. People worked hard to make bitcoin and crypto what it is today, you think you and a few other people are going to be worthy of destroying it for your mistakes or money? Goddamn LOOOOLL!! All I have to say to you.

I dont think you get it..  This is all an experiment.. we live and learn.. But if your worried that this little clusterfuck is a danger to bitcoin.. Then it isnt that strong or unbreakable then!.  Your group making this into a shitshow for days now trying to prove your point which is dead in the water.  Consensus ruled and we went for the bailout not of eth but of the dao. No chain was rolled back.. IM still trying to figure out why you trying to fill this thread with so much fud. Im sure is to keep google searches full of you and icebreaker fuckery.  Get over it already and how about you all stop acting like children.  Sit back a few days without posting and breathe for a second.. Please


maybe spend some time correcting this article http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bitfinex-hack-shows-how-bitcoins-blockchain-can-be-a-liability-2016-08-03?siteid=yhoof2

Best Regards
d57heinz

[Perryll]

In Reply:

If, what you say is true:

Why has doing bailouts been an accepted practice in every national economy on Earth for many thousands of years?

These are economy's are worth $77.609 trillion (estimation based on 2014 figures).

In fact: find me an economy on Earth, which has a publicly stated policy of never doing a bailout?

Hahaaaa just don't get it do ya? You want bailouts ok cool head to the bank. Expecting crypto to change the rules because people make bad decisions? Not gonna happen dude, don't believe me ok, just stay tuned. People worked hard to make bitcoin and crypto what it is today, you think you and a few other people are going to be worthy of destroying it for your mistakes or money? Goddamn LOOOOLL!! All I have to say to you.

I dont think you get it..  This is all an experiment.. we live and learn.. But if your worried that this little clusterfuck is a danger to bitcoin.. Then it isnt that strong or unbreakable then!.  Your group making this into a shitshow for days now trying to prove your point which is dead in the water.  Consensus ruled and we went for the bailout not of eth but of the dao. No chain was rolled back.. IM still trying to figure out why you trying to fill this thread with so much fud. Im sure is to keep google searches full of you and icebreaker fuckery.  Get over it already and how about you all stop acting like children.  Sit back a few days without posting and breathe for a second.. Please


Best Regards
d57heinz

I did that. I left for a week, even longer, and come back and you guys are still going at it.

I don't even hold ETC or mine it. I don't hold ETH, nothing. I'm done with ETH/ETC. Might try out the other two forks if they even release anything, but aside that. There are a thousand others to try out.

[d57heinz]

In Reply:

If, what you say is true:

Why has doing bailouts been an accepted practice in every national economy on Earth for many thousands of years?

These are economy's are worth $77.609 trillion (estimation based on 2014 figures).

In fact: find me an economy on Earth, which has a publicly stated policy of never doing a bailout?

Hahaaaa just don't get it do ya? You want bailouts ok cool head to the bank. Expecting crypto to change the rules because people make bad decisions? Not gonna happen dude, don't believe me ok, just stay tuned. People worked hard to make bitcoin and crypto what it is today, you think you and a few other people are going to be worthy of destroying it for your mistakes or money? Goddamn LOOOOLL!! All I have to say to you.

I dont think you get it..  This is all an experiment.. we live and learn.. But if your worried that this little clusterfuck is a danger to bitcoin.. Then it isnt that strong or unbreakable then!.  Your group making this into a shitshow for days now trying to prove your point which is dead in the water.  Consensus ruled and we went for the bailout not of eth but of the dao. No chain was rolled back.. IM still trying to figure out why you trying to fill this thread with so much fud. Im sure is to keep google searches full of you and icebreaker fuckery.  Get over it already and how about you all stop acting like children.  Sit back a few days without posting and breathe for a second.. Please


Best Regards
d57heinz

I did that. I left for a week, even longer, and come back and you guys are still going at it.

I don't even hold ETC or mine it. I don't hold ETH, nothing. I'm done with ETH/ETC. Might try out the other two forks if they even release anything, but aside that. There are a thousand others to try out.

well im not.. ive been trying to get them to stop for about a week now.  Let the people decide for themselves..  Consensus is a critical mechanism of btc.  If it will be abused like this it just goes to show that people will go to great lengths to fuck up a good thing just to be spiteful.  No matter the cost.. I mean some have the ability to get money for practically nothing.. hell there are a privileged few that get to print all usd into existence.  I mean hell it takes one fucktard in that group and this experiment is toast.  Tread lightly and no matter what only put into this crypto experiment as much as you want to lose because its like a 90 % chance that is what happens.  Good luck all

best Regards
d57heinz

[thevictimofuktyranny]

In Reply:

Answering silly rebuttals is making me yawn, maybe I should have gone on holiday this August

The Fork in the Ethereum blockchain is a Change

Therefore my words: "I prefer too back new innovation and discoveries" is being consistent with supporting the fork in the blockchain.

Therefore, the charge against me of logical fallacies, appears to be in somebody's imagination

Secondly the full paragraph you are quoting is:

"But, when it comes to my money and my time: I prefer too back new innovation and discoveries.

Some of these, may turn out be crap, but I'm certain their going to be winners amongst in that group."

Therefore, you comprehension is failing, because as sentence makes clear - this is not about the "Old Hat" policy of zero-bailouts, but a personal preference in trying out new features that appear in new Alts.

Turning to the guy using Latin:

argumentum ad populum= mass adoption is what every crypto currency is trying to achieve (popularity).

argumentum ad ignorantiam = ignorance requires trust, which needs history or proof of trustworthiness. Allowing 3.5 million ETH to be stolen is not going allow people to "ignorantly" trust the Ethereum Foundation and they can never achieve mass adoption of the crypto currency.

Therefore, doing the exact opposite of what you are arguing could make ETH the biggest crypto currency in world!

[d57heinz]

The way i see it.  And i wonder if iceb and friends are having the same discussion on bitfinex threads.  I mean i look at bfx as a doa.  People dumped way too much into a place they didnt control the keys of.  hacker got into it now we see the bailout.  Socialized losses.  No difference whatsoever.. Wheres all the fireworks about that.. Maybe i missed it or i havent seen it because ive smartened up and not keep large amount on exchanges.(btw i only put 10 eth into doa:) ). i say if icebreaker is to have his way then some should lose all on bfx and those not hacked should have access to pre hack funds.. Anyway.. I leave those that have nothing better to do to chew on this for a while..

best Regards
d57heinz

btw i support your position thevictimofuktyrrany.  Follow the "good" fork and consensus and lets see where it leads.. If ice and company had it their way its a failure already..  No harm in trying and btc is its own chain again not effected by this whatsoever.

[Mrpumperitis]

Those that keep going on about emootabillety lol understand Blockchain for BTC...they dont understand ETC blockchain...it does things differently, also the dao coins that were stolen could only be retreived because there was a 30+day withdraw limit. Changing this single tranasction was different because it did not require the entire rollback of the ETH chain and miner fees were not involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGGW9ozE-ys#t=71 watch from 1hr for this discussion on why BTC cant do rollback like ETH.
ETH can pick out a single transaction and if there is consensus then changes can be made...niether of these two things can be done on BTC.
If you want 100% emootabillety, use BTC or any other COIN.
Ethereum is not BTC.

[suchmoon]

The way i see it.  And i wonder if iceb and friends are having the same discussion on bitfinex threads.  I mean i look at bfx as a doa.  People dumped way too much into a place they didnt control the keys of.  hacker got into it now we see the bailout.  Socialized losses.  No difference whatsoever.. Wheres all the fireworks about that.. Maybe i missed it or i havent seen it because ive smartened up and not keep large amount on exchanges.(btw i only put 10 eth into doa:) ). i say if icebreaker is to have his way then some should lose all on bfx and those not hacked should have access to pre hack funds.. Anyway.. I leave those that have nothing better to do to chew on this for a while..

best Regards
d57heinz

btw i support your position thevictimofuktyrrany.  Follow the "good" fork and consensus and lets see where it leads.. If ice and company had it their way its a failure already..  No harm in trying and btc is its own chain again not effected by this whatsoever.

Bitfinex is not rolling back Bitcoin blockchain. How they solve their internal issue is not relevant to anyone except Bitfinex bagholders. That's how the DAO should have solved their issue, not by asking Vitalik to bail it out.

[iCEBREAKER]

The way i see it.  And i wonder if iceb and friends are having the same discussion on bitfinex threads.  I mean i look at bfx as a doa.  People dumped way too much into a place they didnt control the keys of.  hacker got into it now we see the bailout.  Socialized losses.  No difference whatsoever.. Wheres all the fireworks about that.. Maybe i missed it or i havent seen it because ive smartened up and not keep large amount on exchanges.(btw i only put 10 eth into doa:) ). i say if icebreaker is to have his way then some should lose all on bfx and those not hacked should have access to pre hack funds.. Anyway.. I leave those that have nothing better to do to chew on this for a while..

best Regards
d57heinz

btw i support your position thevictimofuktyrrany.  Follow the "good" fork and consensus and lets see where it leads.. If ice and company had it their way its a failure already..  No harm in trying and btc is its own chain again not effected by this whatsoever.

LOL, as if I'm advocating a BTC hard fork to roll back and bail out Bitfinex losses?  Where did you get that idea (and pass it over 'ere).   

Slight difference: Bitfinex claimed to be insured and protected by known-good top-shelf security.  DAO?  Not so much....

You obviously have no idea what my opinion wrt Bitfinex is, yet don't hesitate to put conclusory words in my mouth and hold me accountable for them.

That's called a strawman.

I believe anyone risking BTC on any exchange, in order to possibly accrue reward from trading, has no right to expect ex post facto asset commingling and resultant socialized losses.

You'd know that if you weren't a noob and unfamiliar with my posting history, in which I put >1 exchange operator on full blast for pulling a Bitfinex (before it was cool).

Fuck you for making up stuff I don't agree with and attributing it to my paradigm.

I accept your apology for being a sorry sack of shit.