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Author Topic: [NEW POOL & MINER] - BitcoinPool.com - Jump In! ~NO FEES~ :)  (Read 95988 times)
geebus
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March 30, 2011, 11:17:24 PM
 #641

If everyone is concerned about loss of BTC due to pool hoppers, I will be more than happy to only count the shares from the last hour of the round when a block is found.

Or if anyone has suggestions on alternatives (aside from score based, because I fucking refuse to do it) I'm happy to listen.

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March 30, 2011, 11:29:52 PM
 #642

Or if anyone has suggestions on alternatives (aside from score based, because I fucking refuse to do it) I'm happy to listen.

Why is score worse than sliding window of calculating shares? Originally I also wanted to implement sliding window, but found score much more effective and better from all points.

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March 30, 2011, 11:36:08 PM
 #643

If everyone is concerned about loss of BTC due to pool hoppers, I will be more than happy to only count the shares from the last hour of the round when a block is found.

Or if anyone has suggestions on alternatives (aside from score based, because I fucking refuse to do it) I'm happy to listen.
i for one would like a score based system, not slush's, the more complicated one that is cheat proof.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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CryptikEnigma
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March 30, 2011, 11:49:34 PM
 #644

people are jumping ship lol

The only reason they have to jump ship is that they can't do basic math. FRanz33 explained it fairly well.

Funny thing is that he has more shares then the average time it takes for him to get a 50 BTC block lol, how unlucky can this pool be if a miner is in this situation, and account for <20%? xD

I wouldnt call myself unlucky at all, just average. Honestly if you just take the last 10 blocks we found and average out the times its about 10hrs per block which puts us well within our performance range for given hash rate which fluctuates quite alot due to people joining in and dropping out for whatever reason. Ive seen us go from 14 to 8 then back to 14 in one day and however long we stay at a current hash rate affects our prediction of when we should hit. But i assure you it all evens out and adds up. a round may go long then have some really short ones to balance it out. Now i think its bad form to talk about what goes on in other pools that your not apart of but i can say in this pool the shares that i do work on i actually get paid my fair share for as if i mined it solo. And there's no fee and my very first share counts as much as my last share and i get to track everything in a nice neat website so it was a no brainer to mine here instead of solo vs other pools. The other pools have a large Hash rate so it looks attractive to new comers trying to make coins fast but splitting the shares with a larger number PLUS fees you make less, just add it up. We really just need some guys to stick it out for about a week and you'll see what im saying and why im here solely for this pool.  And id like to apologize to Yrral. My post wasnt aimed at you. I know i led off commenting back at you but i was speaking in general, so please accept my apology.


Well said, I've been in this pool for a week now and I love it.
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March 30, 2011, 11:55:06 PM
 #645

If everyone is concerned about loss of BTC due to pool hoppers, I will be more than happy to only count the shares from the last hour of the round when a block is found.

Or if anyone has suggestions on alternatives (aside from score based, because I fucking refuse to do it) I'm happy to listen.

couldn't you poolhop out of the pool at the beginning and come back at XX% of difficulty or something?

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geebus
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March 30, 2011, 11:59:50 PM
 #646

If everyone is concerned about loss of BTC due to pool hoppers, I will be more than happy to only count the shares from the last hour of the round when a block is found.

Or if anyone has suggestions on alternatives (aside from score based, because I fucking refuse to do it) I'm happy to listen.

couldn't you poolhop out of the pool at the beginning and come back at XX% of difficulty or something?

It's the exact same situation that score based pools are in. You're attempting to predict when the pool will solve a block and it's a gamble.

I could do it this way... Any user under 70% efficiency wont be paid.

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CryptikEnigma
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March 31, 2011, 12:16:57 AM
 #647

If everyone is concerned about loss of BTC due to pool hoppers, I will be more than happy to only count the shares from the last hour of the round when a block is found.

Or if anyone has suggestions on alternatives (aside from score based, because I fucking refuse to do it) I'm happy to listen.

couldn't you poolhop out of the pool at the beginning and come back at XX% of difficulty or something?

It's the exact same situation that score based pools are in. You're attempting to predict when the pool will solve a block and it's a gamble.

I could do it this way... Any user under 70% efficiency wont be paid.

I'd be fine with that, bigger share for me.
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March 31, 2011, 12:38:24 AM
 #648

I think you should leave it the way it is. I understand i have a very large share of the pool and some may disagree with me but the way it is is fair period point blank. If a miner chooses to mine for your pool for 2hrs then another pool for 2hrs and solo for two hrs its their right. They still put in X amount of shares that would have to have been sifted through by any other miner so they get paid for their work. Last night i went to bed all of my miners cruching away 2.1ghash i was in that round for over a day. I wake up this morning two of my rigs are down and im olny at .9 and we hit twice during that time. And a third a couple hrs later. I was paid for the work i did for that long round and much less for the round that went on during while my rigs were down but it was still fair pay. now what if i only had one rig and it went down for one night? i dont get paid for a 32 hr round that i crunched away for 26? you do that and u have some very unhappy miners. If a miner chooses to jump pools then they take a gamble with their own money. its like the stock market one day ur up and one day ur down u can try to go in the direction of the market and move around alot or u can sit and be patient and watch ur money grow. thats just my take on it..keep it going the way it is Geebus youve made a niche for yourself offering something different if people want a diff. based share system theyre are other pools for that. Mimic what other pools are doing and we have no reason to be here at all and the 70% eff is total crap too because your saying if we dont use ur miner we wont get paid and that will turn people off as well...sorry for being so long winded ive been watch alot but not really saying much
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March 31, 2011, 12:43:00 AM
 #649

I think you should leave it for now. As the pool gets bigger I don't think it will be as big a problem.
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March 31, 2011, 12:45:56 AM
 #650

I think you should leave it the way it is. I understand i have a very large share of the pool and some may disagree with me but the way it is is fair period point blank. If a miner chooses to mine for your pool for 2hrs then another pool for 2hrs and solo for two hrs its their right. They still put in X amount of shares that would have to have been sifted through by any other miner so they get paid for their work. Last night i went to bed all of my miners cruching away 2.1ghash i was in that round for over a day. I wake up this morning two of my rigs are down and im olny at .9 and we hit twice during that time. And a third a couple hrs later. I was paid for the work i did for that long round and much less for the round that went on during while my rigs were down but it was still fair pay. now what if i only had one rig and it went down for one night? i dont get paid for a 32 hr round that i crunched away for 26? you do that and u have some very unhappy miners. If a miner chooses to jump pools then they take a gamble with their own money. its like the stock market one day ur up and one day ur down u can try to go in the direction of the market and move around alot or u can sit and be patient and watch ur money grow. thats just my take on it..keep it going the way it is Geebus youve made a niche for yourself offering something different if people want a diff. based share system their are other pools for that. Mimic what other pools are doing and we have no reason to be here at all and the 70% eff is total crap too because your saying if we dont use ur miner we wont get paid and that will turn people off as well...sorry for being so long winded ive been watch alot but not really saying much

I agree, but the general consensus being conveyed by people is that by hopping pools you can somehow magically make your card yield more results, and in hand, higher payouts. The fact of the matter is, with every other pool doing score based systems, we're protected against pool hopping because of the fact that anyone hopping from one of those pools into ours loses the money they would have earned while on the other pool. Likewise, leaving ours, their payout is reduced due to everyone else submitting shares.

The fact of the matter is, you can't cause your card to generate more than your expected daily payout. It will always be the same based on hash speed, whether it's a share based, score based, or solo mining effort.

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March 31, 2011, 12:48:50 AM
 #651

I say leave it also. I've been with this pool for a few days, earned more BTC than the other pools I tried, and I found my first block. Unless you have a way for me to get more BTC, I say leave it.

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March 31, 2011, 01:04:08 AM
 #652

Then by all means forget the consensus and go with whats reasonable u cant please everybody but u can run your shop in a way that you agree with. Were not giving you anything to run the pool so run it as fair as possible. Also the whole .0001 btc to get the payments out the door? to hell with that too..who cares if the payment comes in 12 hrs late honestly you wouldn't put a .40 stamp to mail a 5 dollar check to 100 people jus so we get it a day earlier would u? esp when u can mail it for free?
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March 31, 2011, 01:16:28 AM
 #653

Only reason why I COULD be in favor of a new method would be to attract more people, but I don't think it will happen, so I am in favor of leaving it as it is also

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xenon481
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March 31, 2011, 01:22:03 AM
 #654

I agree, but the general consensus being conveyed by people is that by hopping pools you can somehow magically make your card yield more results, and in hand, higher payouts. The fact of the matter is, with every other pool doing score based systems, we're protected against pool hopping because of the fact that anyone hopping from one of those pools into ours loses the money they would have earned while on the other pool. Likewise, leaving ours, their payout is reduced due to everyone else submitting shares.

The fact of the matter is, you can't cause your card to generate more than your expected daily payout. It will always be the same based on hash speed, whether it's a share based, score based, or solo mining effort.

Everything you just said is mathematically provable (and proven with a white-paper and everything) to be false. Pool-hopping doesn't do some mythical magic that gets you more shares, it is a mathematically proven strategy to maximize your total payout over time above the theoretical limits by exploiting mathematical inefficiencies in the markets which are pools. Mathematical inefficiencies that don't naturally exist with just solo-mining.

And the fact that some other pools are Score based doesn't make your Share based pool (specifically it's miners) any less vulnerable to the attack. First, there are only two Score based pools. Tycho's pool is also Share based like yours. Second, the vulnerability still exists even if you were the only Share based pool; the attack would merely lead to 20-30% payout gains instead of the significantly higher possible gains with multiple Share based pools in existence.

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March 31, 2011, 01:32:21 AM
 #655

hopping pools you can somehow magically make your card yield more results

Who said that?

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we're protected against pool hopping

Fail. Attacker can switch between solo and pool, or better, between you and deepbit. Anything what is needed by attacker is count of round shares of at least one pool.

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March 31, 2011, 01:38:44 AM
 #656

hopping pools you can somehow magically make your card yield more results

Who said that?

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we're protected against pool hopping

Fail. Attacker can switch between solo and pool, or better, between you and deepbit. Anything what is needed by attacker is count of round shares of at least one pool.

Deepbit at least has a 1 hour delay in stats so it's hard to poolhop from him to another, but it is easy from yours to his, and then if no blocks are found in the hour then you hop to solo

Perhaps a delay of a few hours in showing stats would be smart?

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xenon481
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March 31, 2011, 01:42:16 AM
 #657

hopping pools you can somehow magically make your card yield more results

Who said that?

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we're protected against pool hopping

Fail. Attacker can switch between solo and pool, or better, between you and deepbit. Anything what is needed by attacker is count of round shares of at least one pool.

Deepbit at least has a 1 hour delay in stats so it's hard to poolhop from him to another, but it is easy from yours to his, and then if no blocks are found in the hour then you hop to solo

Perhaps a delay of a few hours in showing stats would be smart?

I assume you are referring to hopping from BitcoinPool to Deepbit, not from BitcoinPooledMining to Deepbit. The quote makes that unclear.

And delayed stats does make it harder to implement pool hopping, but it is still fairly easy to do by just estimating the pool's speed and watching the hash chain either in your Bitcoin client or on BlockExplorer.

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geebus
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March 31, 2011, 02:30:38 AM
 #658

Or if anyone has suggestions on alternatives (aside from score based, because I fucking refuse to do it) I'm happy to listen.

Why is score worse than sliding window of calculating shares? Originally I also wanted to implement sliding window, but found score much more effective and better from all points.

I didn't say it was worse, I said I fucking refuse to do it.

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FairUser
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March 31, 2011, 02:32:15 AM
 #659

I think you should leave it the way it is. I understand i have a very large share of the pool and some may disagree with me but the way it is is fair period point blank. If a miner chooses to mine for your pool for 2hrs then another pool for 2hrs and solo for two hrs its their right. They still put in X amount of shares that would have to have been sifted through by any other miner so they get paid for their work. Last night i went to bed all of my miners cruching away 2.1ghash i was in that round for over a day. I wake up this morning two of my rigs are down and im olny at .9 and we hit twice during that time. And a third a couple hrs later. I was paid for the work i did for that long round and much less for the round that went on during while my rigs were down but it was still fair pay. now what if i only had one rig and it went down for one night? i dont get paid for a 32 hr round that i crunched away for 26? you do that and u have some very unhappy miners. If a miner chooses to jump pools then they take a gamble with their own money. its like the stock market one day ur up and one day ur down u can try to go in the direction of the market and move around alot or u can sit and be patient and watch ur money grow. thats just my take on it..keep it going the way it is Geebus youve made a niche for yourself offering something different if people want a diff. based share system theyre are other pools for that. Mimic what other pools are doing and we have no reason to be here at all and the 70% eff is total crap too because your saying if we dont use ur miner we wont get paid and that will turn people off as well...sorry for being so long winded ive been watch alot but not really saying much

I agree.  Trying to trap people into our pool with weighted shares seems unfair to those who have this exact problem (boxes crashed).  We can't sit in front of our miner 24/7 to make sure it's running.  Punishing those who had a technical failure of some sort seems dumb to me.

Everyone keeps saying it's mathematically proven that pool hoping works.  Yeah, I read that paper too, but has anyone proven this in real life?  Has anyone successfully done it and made more than what they would make on average if they were mining solo?  Did they test it for 24 hours, 3 days, 7 days, a month?  Or did everyone go "ahhh, I see big formula's so it must be true."?

Unless someone can do it, record all their data, and prove they make more by doing it, I don't see it being a viable cheating method.
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March 31, 2011, 02:55:30 AM
 #660



The only validity to the pool hopping exploit I can see is if you could put yourself in a position where you started off at Bitcoin Pooled Mining (BPM) and had a decent chunk into it and bailed toward the end for Bitcoin Pool (BP). From what I have read, and I could be wrong or outdated info, shares at BPM are weighted more heavily toward the end so if you had a decent stake in the current block at BPM and managed to switch over to BP at the beginning of a new block to establish a stake there too. Both blocks would have to terminate rather quickly and at about the same time for it to work and not have the shares get ate up at BPM.

It's possible, but highly unlikely considering you would have to get lucky with the timing on both sites.

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