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Author Topic: BitcoinNews.com's English Premier League Football Pool Discussion Thread  (Read 43658 times)
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December 30, 2019, 02:52:02 PM
Merited by tomahawk9 (1)
 #2041

The FA really needs to change its VAR rules.

Yesterday's game was massacred because of it and although I'm a Liverpool fan I think that the Wolves goal should have stood.
In situations in which you cannot be sure you need to let initial decision stand, or at least give the decision in the hands of the referee on the pitch.

We have seen many of these disallowed so far, I think disallowing a goal when unsure really is not the best thing you can do.

It's probably not just VAR but the offside rule which needs changing.



If you had a camera looking straight down the line in my opinion there's a chance that might not even be offside but you can't tell 100% from than skewed angle. As I said above, change the rule so that only a part of your body needs to be onside so that goal would have stood. Give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team and don't go all forensic trying to find some reason to disallow it. Personally I think attacking players should be given even more leeway on what is and isn't offside but I haven't thought of or seen a decent suggestion to how to allow or accommodate for that (and I don't want VAR to have to still take 5 minutes out of the game to try decide if it's still offside or not).



Exactly, football is played for the goals and this VAR bullshit when they watch the the situation 20 times and triangulate lines to prove that tip of attacker shoulder is half a millimeter in front of the last defender are total nonsense. I am waiting for the situation where attacker hair is in offside resulting with most of the players having contract clause to have to shave their head bald.


That's when it gets silly to me. We have the 'clear and obvious rule' so if it's not clear and obvious then don't go all CSI trying to look for evidence of a minor technicality to punish the team. I've joked that I'm just waiting for the time a player's swinging dick bulging through his shorts gets a goal disallowed  Cheesy.

The FA really needs to change its VAR rules.
Nah, i actually like it. I like how they stay consistent, if Pukki's goal vs Spurs was ruled out because of milimiters, then the same should apply to Neto's goal.

I don't think it is consistent though. Sure, they seem to be disallowing a lot of goals for the same thing, but there was one instance a while back where a goal was deemed offside but it actually wasn't. From the VAR angles it looked like it was offside but from some of the pitch-side cameras that weren't available during the game it was shown to be onside. I can't remember what game it was but I've talked about it in this thread and there's picture proof of it. There was also another game where the ball was deemed to have gone out of play but the wrong decision was given (think that might have been in the Champion's League though. Think I also commented on that in whichever tournament thread it happened in).

But let's be honest, if stuff like this happens in a FA cup final or in a decisive game for the 4th spot in the league table in the last few games of the season, no one would say anything. I'm actually expecting something like that to happen towards the end of the season (VAR taking a crucial decision) and everyone changing their views on VAR to praise it.

Just imagine what would've happened if Neto's goal was the 1-2 in the '95 min and the VAR didn't intervine, the entire internet would be furious, posting images showing how Neto was offside by two pixels and the VAR should've dissallowed it  Roll Eyes

Sure, it would have been great to rule out Maradona's Hand of God back in the day but many seem to think that ruling goals offside for millimetres is overkill and unnecessary. I think you can look at it the other way as well. What happens if VAR disallows a trophy or title winning goal for the tiniest of things or maybe even gets it wrong and disallows something incorrectly. VAR is almost certainly here to stay but I think most people think it needs tweaking or streamlining and it's clearly not a perfect system. Goal-line technology seems to have got it right and its instantaneous. The ball goes over the line and the ref gets a buzz to alert him straight away. If it doesn't go over the ref knows and the game continues without any stoppages. VAR takes 2/3/5 minutes to forensically analyse whether someone is a pube-hair offside and it's just killing the game. I really think it's going to get to the point where there's silence in the stadiums after a goal and nobody dare's celebrate because they look like an idiot when it's disallowed.

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December 30, 2019, 03:00:34 PM
 #2042

I think VAR is great and in a few years it will play a key role but then thing I don't understand is why they don't have the TV on the sideline that the ref can look at. As it stands now someone that sits in the VAR room can't (no matter how much they look at video) see the same things that the ref on the pitch can. They should relay information and let the head ref take a look at rather than telling him what they see. Not sure if this is only in PL as I don't follow a lot of other leagues but yeah, just my 2 satoshis on the whole VAR debate.

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December 30, 2019, 03:25:44 PM
 #2043

I think VAR is great and in a few years it will play a key role but then thing I don't understand is why they don't have the TV on the sideline that the ref can look at. As it stands now someone that sits in the VAR room can't (no matter how much they look at video) see the same things that the ref on the pitch can. They should relay information and let the head ref take a look at rather than telling him what they see. Not sure if this is only in PL as I don't follow a lot of other leagues but yeah, just my 2 satoshis on the whole VAR debate.

They do have it there as far as I'm aware, but I think they only consult it when it's deemed absolutely necessary, which is seemingly hardly ever. It seemed to happen a lot more in the EUROs and World Cup as the refs were trotting to the sidelines quite a lot in the games I remember watching. I would argue the opposite though and I think checking it is a waste of time and just adds to the farce. There's already a handful of officials viewing it and if they can't make their mind up then that should tell you everything. Let them make the decisions to speed things up. The ref will already have his view/opinion from what he saw but VAR is there to try make up for things the officials miss, which can be quite a lot as they can't see everything but that's just a part of the game and at this point I'd prefer it if most things were just left to them. There's already a huge issue in football with the ball being out of play almost as much as it's in and when we're having to take time out for VAR decisions it's just adding to that and even more so if we're having the refs run over to the sideline to watch ten replays.

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December 30, 2019, 03:43:46 PM
Merited by tomahawk9 (1)
 #2044

Like any new technology it takes time to be perfect. VAR will get better, I don’t see many decisions that are wrong just lots of fans moaning who get affected by VAR decisions. Those decisions in the Liverpool vs Wolves game were correct.

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December 30, 2019, 03:47:54 PM
 #2045

I think VAR is great and in a few years it will play a key role but then thing I don't understand is why they don't have the TV on the sideline that the ref can look at. As it stands now someone that sits in the VAR room can't (no matter how much they look at video) see the same things that the ref on the pitch can. They should relay information and let the head ref take a look at rather than telling him what they see. Not sure if this is only in PL as I don't follow a lot of other leagues but yeah, just my 2 satoshis on the whole VAR debate.

They do have it there as far as I'm aware, but I think they only consult it when it's deemed absolutely necessary, which is seemingly hardly ever. It seemed to happen a lot more in the EUROs and World Cup as the refs were trotting to the sidelines quite a lot in the games I remember watching. I would argue the opposite though and I think checking it is a waste of time and just adds to the farce. There's already a handful of officials viewing it and if they can't make their mind up then that should tell you everything. Let them make the decisions to speed things up. The ref will already have his view/opinion from what he saw but VAR is there to try make up for things the officials miss, which can be quite a lot as they can't see everything but that's just a part of the game and at this point I'd prefer it if most things were just left to them. There's already a huge issue in football with the ball being out of play almost as much as it's in and when we're having to take time out for VAR decisions it's just adding to that and even more so if we're having the refs run over to the sideline to watch ten replays.

I get what you are saying but I don't mean they should look at offsides and stuff like that - more things that happen which they can't see. Like foul play that is obvious but for some reason no refs can see it and so then instead of someone in a room making the decision it would be better, IMO, if the head ref gets to see it from one of the cameras. But I've found that I'm quite alone in my opinion of liking VAR  Cheesy

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December 30, 2019, 04:16:20 PM
 #2046

Well, what do you know, I actually climbed into 20th spot. Still exactly 30.5 points from #1, but at least I know I can keep in touch (I'm being Watford here and insisting maths is still on my side haha).

19.5 points from 5th spot too, so I shouldn't be TOO discouraged.

@hilarious: re referee interfering with play, I absolutely am in favor for a consistent approach. Like you said, we've seen the dropball happen before, so let's make it happen every time ref gets in the way. The purist in me says football goes on no matter what (and as a Pool fan who lost to a beach ball goal, I can stand by that decision 100% because football is about flow) BUT if we want to prevent unfair goals, which is the whole point of VAR review, then yeah let's be consistent.


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December 30, 2019, 04:33:09 PM
 #2047

Like any new technology it takes time to be perfect. VAR will get better, I don’t see many decisions that are wrong just lots of fans moaning who get affected by VAR decisions.

Fans are bound to whinge when things don't go their way but I'm a neutral so the outcomes don't really effect me but the time-wasting in games due to VAR and goals being disallowed over other minor things is annoying to watch. I don't think there's much they can do to improve VAR directly unless they have the cameras running up and down the pitch with the action but it's the other rules and regulations that need to be changed really and how they're enforced with VAR. My main gripe is them checking every goal needlessly and the pedantic examining of offsides. Don't check for everything and give the teams three appeals only. This will speed the game up and likely lead to only the right or at least most important calls being asked to be examined. Even the Ifab general secretary has said that VAR isn't really being used how it was intended:

Quote
Football’s law-makers have suggested that the Premier League are not using the Video Assistant Referee (VAR) system correctly by reiterating that it should only be used to correct “clear and obvious” errors, and should not be relied upon to try and pinpoint marginal offside calls that require lengthy stoppages to identify.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-var-wrong-offside-review-ifab-goals-replays-a9264306.html

Those decisions in the Liverpool vs Wolves game were correct.

Maybe, but I'd really love to see an image of the above without the hand and from an angle that is looking straight down the line. That knee could be playing him on but regardless these sorts of calls in my opinion should go under clear and obvious, which this obviously isn't. There's also the Van Dijk handball:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/29/referee-var-not-give-virgil-van-dijk-handball-liverpool-vs-wolves-11973534/?ito=cbshare

Quote
According to Sky Sports, VAR checked the replay and claimed the ‘evidence is inconclusive’. But according to beIN Sports, the match referee Anthony Taylor told Wolves’ technical staff that Van Dijk’s handball was ‘too far back in the move’ to be considered.

I'm not sure how far back something counts but I've seen games pulled back by ridiculous amounts to give a decision that disallowed a goal. Can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head in the Premier League but the one in the Portugal game was a shocker and there's been a fair few in the Champion's League but I know those aren't relevant to this argument as the PL implements VAR differently.

@hilarious: re referee interfering with play, I absolutely am in favor for a consistent approach. Like you said, we've seen the dropball happen before, so let's make it happen every time ref gets in the way. The purist in me says football goes on no matter what (and as a Pool fan who lost to a beach ball goal, I can stand by that decision 100% because football is about flow) BUT if we want to prevent unfair goals, which is the whole point of VAR review, then yeah let's be consistent.



I don't know why they even brought that change in. It just slows things down. If it hits the ref then it hits the ref. Just play on. Players know where the ref is or at the very least just adapt to it if it accidentally hits him. What if the ball hits a tuft of grass or a divot on the field that sends the ball to the opposite player? Drop ball for that as well? Shit happens. The governing bodies know that there's a huge problem with the flow of the game and the issue of the ball being out of play along with players time wasting and yet the changes they've made have only added to that considerably.

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December 30, 2019, 05:57:05 PM
 #2048

Nice short and sensible article on VAR here

https://www.givemesport.com/1533656-var-chaos-five-ways-the-premier-league-can-fix-ridiculous-offside-calls?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=web-view&utm_campaign=organic-social

I’ve always thought the cricket way is the best, having 1-2 reviews that only the captain can call .
Souness’s call is pretty good too.
But we must keep VAR and it will improve over time
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December 30, 2019, 08:35:40 PM
 #2049

...

Yep, all valid points. I'm also not for measuring pubic hair when determining if a player is onside or not. Let the referee check, if they are not sure they can either allow the goal or stay with their initial decision.
Disallowing goals when unsure is a step backwards. When we will have clear and 100% exact images, 1mm offside is offside. Now, when we can't be sure, attackers cannot be blamed for VAR inefficiency.

I think VAR is great and in a few years it will play a key role but then thing I don't understand is why they don't have the TV on the sideline that the ref can look at. As it stands now someone that sits in the VAR room can't (no matter how much they look at video) see the same things that the ref on the pitch can. They should relay information and let the head ref take a look at rather than telling him what they see. Not sure if this is only in PL as I don't follow a lot of other leagues but yeah, just my 2 satoshis on the whole VAR debate.

They do, just not in England. England's football association decided they want a 'VAR room' that will decide instead of a referee on the pitch.

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December 30, 2019, 09:40:42 PM
 #2050

The FA really needs to change its VAR rules.
Nah, i actually like it. I like how they stay consistent, if Pukki's goal vs Spurs was ruled out because of milimiters, then the same should apply to Neto's goal.
I don't think it is consistent though. Sure, they seem to be disallowing a lot of goals for the same thing, but there was one instance a while back where a goal was deemed offside but it actually wasn't. <snip>
I was referring to both goals that were dissallowed just last weekend (:  But you're right, before the last Matchweek the VAR have had some pretty awful performances with extremely dubious calls in pretty much every single league where it's been implemented.

Sure, it would have been great to rule out Maradona's Hand of God back in the day but many seem to think that ruling goals offside for millimetres is overkill and unnecessary.
I honestly think this is exactly what the VAR was made for: to correct those tiny little things the human eye simply cannot see.

pube-hair offside and it's just killing the game.
LOL  Grin

Goal-line technology seems to have got it right and its instantaneous. The ball goes over the line and the ref gets a buzz to alert him straight away. If it doesn't go over the ref knows and the game continues without any stoppages.
Goal-line technology is automated, that's why the images come out in almost real-time, while VAR is managed by a group of people. Maybe if football players were to use some kind of sensors in their boots and on their shirts, there wouldn't be that much delay.

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December 30, 2019, 10:50:54 PM
 #2051

Yesterday in City - Sheffield game was another VAR contraversy when Sheffield goal was cancelled after minor offside. When it's question of milimetres it really looks ridiculous when VAR start to draw all these lines. Who can guarantee that these lines is 100% accurate when there is no straight camera angle and it's not in the same line as players. Maybe they need to use 360 degree camera for VAR, which is used in LaLiga or NBA for replays - https://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/tech-news-la-liga-amps-football-viewing-experience-360-degree-videos-thanks-intel-true-view
But I don't understand why there is no big VAR scandals in other major leagues, when in EPL we have VAR contraversy almost each weekend. Yes, shit happens there too, but it's very rare comapred with EPL. Is it all about competence of refrees and VAR room?

I don't know why they even brought that change in. It just slows things down. If it hits the ref then it hits the ref. Just play on. Players know where the ref is or at the very least just adapt to it if it accidentally hits him. What if the ball hits a tuft of grass or a divot on the field that sends the ball to the opposite player? Drop ball for that as well? Shit happens. The governing bodies know that there's a huge problem with the flow of the game and the issue of the ball being out of play along with players time wasting and yet the changes they've made have only added to that considerably.
I agree. Refere in such cases always been considered as part of pitch, same like tuft of grass and if ball hits him, game continues like nothing didn't happened. I can't understand why they changed this rule.




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December 31, 2019, 03:06:20 AM
 #2052

Guys, round 21st is starting from tomorrow. Make sure you work out with you picks. Yesterday was a boring day and so will be today I guess since no football until tomorrow. I already done my picks. Norwich vs Palace, Watford vs Wolves, Burnley vs Villa, West Ham vs Bournemouth and Arsenal vs Utd seems tricky ones. I am having this feeling that this round will not be an easy one for most of the teams and for the pool too.


By the way, this is what I got from superbru for the last round:




I am wondering what tomahawk9 received from them since they had a really good round. 😀

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December 31, 2019, 09:10:29 AM
 #2053

By the way, this is what I got from superbru for the last round:




I am wondering what tomahawk9 received from them since they had a really good round. 😀

That message only looks at percentage of correct results. Unfortunately, I often have very good percentage of correct results, even close scores but I can't get exact score in Premier League and they are the ones that are making the difference. This week for instance 4 close scores and 4 results while 0 correct scores which makes great 8/10 in the message and really bad result in our pool Smiley

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December 31, 2019, 12:28:25 PM
 #2054

Sure, it would have been great to rule out Maradona's Hand of God back in the day but many seem to think that ruling goals offside for millimetres is overkill and unnecessary.
I honestly think this is exactly what the VAR was made for: to correct those tiny little things the human eye simply cannot see.

Well you can certainly make a case for that, but I've always had an issue with the off-side rule. It's meant to stop goal hanging, not miss-timed runs by millimetres or a split-second. My main issue though is it slowing down the game and drastically so. The governing bodies know there's a huge issue with the amount of time the ball is actually in play and they're currently looking at ways to prevent that, but VAR is the biggest waste of time now. I can't see them ever changing the off side rule, but they can stop looking at every goal and just go to an appeal system. I think that would speed things up. I don't have a problem with VAR but just use it when it's needed or called for by the players and everything will run a lot smoother.

Goal-line technology seems to have got it right and its instantaneous. The ball goes over the line and the ref gets a buzz to alert him straight away. If it doesn't go over the ref knows and the game continues without any stoppages.
Goal-line technology is automated, that's why the images come out in almost real-time, while VAR is managed by a group of people. Maybe if football players were to use some kind of sensors in their boots and on their shirts, there wouldn't be that much delay.

I think this would all be going overkill really. I'd rather have VAR scrapped than having sensors in boots and stuff. I think it would be very hard to implement as well. It's pretty easy to do with stationery goalposts but not so much players. The only way you can effectively police offside is with more cameras and better cam technology. Maybe instead of cameras running up and down the pitch they can use some sort of overhead one but it would have to keep in line with the action unless they can develop ones that can view the entire pitch at once. Maybe they'll be using CIA satellites next to zoom in on the action from above  Grin.

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December 31, 2019, 06:27:55 PM
 #2055

Do not forget to pick your scores tomorrow, I’ve just picked mine

good luck wish you all the best in the 2020 year

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December 31, 2019, 07:58:10 PM
 #2056

Do not forget to pick your scores tomorrow, I’ve just picked mine

good luck wish you all the best in the 2020 year
Thanks for reminder Happy new year to all fellows  Cheesy

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January 01, 2020, 11:04:34 AM
 #2057

Wakey wakey  all . Get your picks in !!
Happy new year folks and may it be full of good fortune.
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January 01, 2020, 11:23:27 AM
 #2058

Happy New Year to ye all, and may there be many forgotten picks or last minute changes from correct score to loosing one  Grin

I know I am prone to that last minute changes and they are almost always worse picks then I had before so one of my NY resolutions is to stick with first choice.

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January 01, 2020, 12:32:53 PM
 #2059

Happy New Year to ye all, and may there be many forgotten picks or last minute changes from correct score to loosing one  Grin

I know I am prone to that last minute changes and they are almost always worse picks then I had before so one of my NY resolutions is to stick with first choice.

Happy NY, my predictions are in & I’m just sitting down to watch Brighton vs Chelsea. I hope for a better 2020 in my predictions than I did in 2019 Grin

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January 01, 2020, 01:49:27 PM
 #2060

I've got a feeling this is going to be another disastrous wooden spoon round for me. I've mostly gone for draws as I can't split most of these games except for the Liverpool and Man City matches which I've gone with obvious home wins. Gone for both 1-1s in the games currently playing now and Aston Villa are currently 2-0 up away and Chelsea 1-0 up away. Hopefully Brighton will equalise in the Chelsea game and that one will come in for me but I doubt it. Only game I'll bother watching today is the Arsenal / Man U game which I've gone for another draw. There's the huge West Bromwich Albion - Leeds United game in the Championship as well which will decide 1st position. Hoping Leeds get promoted this year as they've been out of the Prem League for far too long and it's looking pretty strong with 9 points between the automatic promotion places as it stands.

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