mystix
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March 15, 2014, 10:34:44 PM
Last edit: March 15, 2014, 10:45:30 PM by mystix |
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So lets everyone guess and make up their own strategies, and continue to assume from what the bot we designed would do.
Its already been outlined by me and a few others how fiat and BTC are not the only 2 choices to arbitrage, especially when you're not just talking the main few exchanges. BTC is faster then fiat? Certainly, and LTC is faster still, and Fast is faster yet again. Converting to fiat would be a last resort as its slow to move, and there's always significant fees involved, greater then converting to any of the other coins.
Mods from BTCe have been reported from their own admins in chat to 'dislike arbitrage' and work to minimize that. Cryptsy just 'happens' to slow down during periods of high arbitrage trading opportunities. Its reasonably clear that they do their best to discourage the draining of their own reserves simply because of a price difference.
With that it would be silly if btc-arbs would 'open up his books' and explain to us what he's doing. It doesn't do any of us any good, as we're clearly not doing any better ourselves. At the same time it puts his own operation more at risk, as reps of the exchanges are just as likely to be reading as we are. Not only does it not do any good, it likely wouldn't even make any of the whiners any happier then they are now. So what if he works out a few trades on paper to tell us about, does that make it any more real then it is now? No. Is he likely to outline every trade and every move? As explained, No.
If hes buying bread with the BTC and Fiat, feeding it to hamsters, and using that to power his massive mining operation, it doesn't matter. The only true thing that matters is that we are continuing to get a documented percentage, deposits, and withdrawls are both working and continue to do so reliably. BTC-arbs withdrawls are more reliable lately then a lot exchanges out there in fact.
If someone does manage to go to one of the cocktail parties great. If you see his giant hamster farm power his arduino trading platform, even better drop a report on us. Ideally, include pictures. This constant stream of suppositions and guessing is ridiculous.
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According to NIST and ECRYPT II, the cryptographic algorithms used in
Bitcoin are expected to be strong until at least 2030. (After that, it
will not be too difficult to transition to different algorithms.)
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mystix
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March 15, 2014, 10:43:24 PM |
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I agree with everything you said Rannasha, but for the management of Fiat Currency, the only way to avoid being short is to use CFD Bitcoin. Ad example Forex-Metal offers CFD with a lever 3 and commissions of 0.5%. I do not know if it might be possible, but it is an idea. it is also true that transfer to btce costs 1%, and in addition there are fees for the purchase and sale, then where is their gain? I remain skeptical or at least surprised by so great profit.
Wrong. Quoted from their deposit window: "We do not have fee on BTC deposits." Quoted from the BTC-e withdrawal window: "* Fee for withdrawal is 0.001 BTC." Thats not 1% deposit or withdrawal. From their trading window: "At the moment, the fee for transactions is 0.2%." 0.2% is insignificant to the normal differences between the major exchanges in BTC alone, let alone other currencies. Which again for another random point in time compared to my earlier post of the other day sits at 627.297 vs 637.46 which is 1.6% right now. Relatively easy to give out a .5% gain from that with your own profit if you had resources in both places. |
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paulma78
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March 15, 2014, 11:16:47 PM |
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Not to trasfer out BTC,but to trasfer in fiat currency is 1%.Why trasfer BTC in BTCe with a price low?
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Rannasha
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March 15, 2014, 11:41:51 PM |
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0.2% is insignificant to the normal differences between the major exchanges in BTC alone, let alone other currencies. Which again for another random point in time compared to my earlier post of the other day sits at 627.297 vs 637.46 which is 1.6% right now. Relatively easy to give out a .5% gain from that with your own profit if you had resources in both places.
The fee for depositing USD via an international wire transfer to BTC-e is 1%. The trade fee on BTC-e is 0.2%, the trade fee on Bitstamp is 0.2% in the best fee-tier. This adds up to 1.4% already. Even if for some reason you don't pay to deposit and you have the fiat and coins in the right place. You buy Bitcoin for $1000 on BTC-e and pay a 0.2% fee, so total cost: $1002. Then you sell the same amount of Bitcoin for $1016 at Bitstamp (using the 1.6% price difference you mentioned) and pay a 0.2% fee, so total received: $1013.97. Now, how much funds were involved in this process? Roughly $2000 worth of USD and Bitcoin. So a profit of $11.97 was made on a sum of $2000, or 0.6%. And this is in the scenario that you don't need to deposit or withdraw fiat (more costs!), have employees or an office to pay for (way more costs!), don't have fiat sitting in wire transfers (lowering the profit-%) and didn't run out of either BTC or fiat (lowering the profit-%). Even under completely unrealistic assumptions, that 1.6% price-difference translates into a 0.6% profit. In reality, the profit will be much less than that. |
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mystix
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March 16, 2014, 01:48:26 AM
Last edit: March 16, 2014, 04:13:14 AM by mystix |
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0.2% is insignificant to the normal differences between the major exchanges in BTC alone, let alone other currencies. Which again for another random point in time compared to my earlier post of the other day sits at 627.297 vs 637.46 which is 1.6% right now. Relatively easy to give out a .5% gain from that with your own profit if you had resources in both places.
The fee for depositing USD via an international wire transfer to BTC-e is 1%. The trade fee on BTC-e is 0.2%, the trade fee on Bitstamp is 0.2% in the best fee-tier. This adds up to 1.4% already. Even if for some reason you don't pay to deposit and you have the fiat and coins in the right place. You buy Bitcoin for $1000 on BTC-e and pay a 0.2% fee, so total cost: $1002. Then you sell the same amount of Bitcoin for $1016 at Bitstamp (using the 1.6% price difference you mentioned) and pay a 0.2% fee, so total received: $1013.97. Now, how much funds were involved in this process? Roughly $2000 worth of USD and Bitcoin. So a profit of $11.97 was made on a sum of $2000, or 0.6%. And this is in the scenario that you don't need to deposit or withdraw fiat (more costs!), have employees or an office to pay for (way more costs!), don't have fiat sitting in wire transfers (lowering the profit-%) and didn't run out of either BTC or fiat (lowering the profit-%). Even under completely unrealistic assumptions, that 1.6% price-difference translates into a 0.6% profit. In reality, the profit will be much less than that. You don't have to have fiat in places like BTCe as I've explained many times before. You need to have BTC and some other currency to trade into, ltc for example. Some place it would be good to have fiat trades as well, but that does not have to be BTCe where there are high fees for that particular transaction when using your apparently preferred method of bank wire. Its preferable that they have fiat -somewhere- but where that is none of us know. You are also using in your 'totally unrealistic scenario' a mixture of 1 high cost exchange for fees and my randomly chosen price difference. You have mysteriously not chosen one of the 3 ways to get Fiat onto BTC-e with no deposit fee. I chose BTCe as my example because that is the exchange that I use most. So the fact that it comes out with some profit makes it even more feasible. Perhaps he has accounts on Huobi? Where there are 0 trading fees. Other sites have graduated fees that reduce with increased usage. We don't know, and guessing is as previously stated, ridiculous. Its clear you don't know where these trades are happening. If we did, we would be doing it on our own for a greater profit. Its also clear that it is possible as many of us have done it ourselves with far less resources at our disposal. You have outlined more overhead then I considered in my example. Certainly when you add more overhead you increase the work necessary to overcome that. So perhaps I would have had to wait 5 minutes either way to take care of bottled water, maybe another 15 minutes either way to take care of the hot secretary. Again, its a pointless exercise when the basic premise is feasible. I have worked the numbers and as outlined in previous posts I see it as quite clearly doable. If you want to imagine your paying for his Rolls Royce Phantom, run youre own calculations to satisfy your imagination. |
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paulma78
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March 16, 2014, 08:39:18 AM |
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I know it's possible to work without fiat money, but I take what they say in daily reports,this is an extract of yesterday : "Due to the weekend, our fiat balances in the cheaper exchanges are lower than our fiat balances in the more expensive exchanges, limiting our ability to grab the opportunities as they come about. On Monday, when our wires arrive at BTCe and some of the smaller exchanges, we can expect much higher profits".
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jettico
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March 16, 2014, 06:41:48 PM |
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BTC-Arbs.com has not shown a single piece of evidence that there's actual trading going on. No contact information (other than email) either.
Hmm.. Do you know their email? Has anyone ever got an email from them? I only communicated with them through the contact form on the site. Also beware of forgetting your password. If you happen to forget you won't be able to reset it - they(he?) ignored 4 support requests to restore password for my (second) account. |
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ferguson
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March 16, 2014, 07:30:48 PM |
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crazyivan
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March 17, 2014, 10:36:54 AM |
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There is another thing that seems fishy to me. Their domain is registered in Panama and they claim their office is in Switzerland.
Every single time I opened a support ticket, I got the response back about 9-10 a.m. Panama time which is already evening in Switzerland.
Has anyone actually got their tickets answered during European working hours?
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hypersire
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March 17, 2014, 01:08:12 PM
Last edit: July 08, 2014, 11:44:19 PM by hypersire |
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Hi all! So I researched these guys a while back and I ended up going with a different but similar service: https://bitcoin-trader.biz/My reasoning was that there is more information available on Bitcoin Trader and it seemed like it has better odds of being a legitimate company. Here is the article where I learned about Bitcoin Trader: http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/02/12/bitcoin-trader-biz-let-bitcoin-trader-earn-money/According to the article, Bitcoin Trader started off as invite only and they really don't advertise much at all. Unlike BTC-Arbs, they steer clear of all HYIP forums. They also appear to be "friends" with the Bitcoin Foundation and KNC Miner (not that that means anything). Here is the Bitcointalk thread on them: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=393570.0. Stick to the "trading pool" - there is also a "mining pool" but the rates on that one have continuously been going down so the trading pool is a safer bet. I have both and the mining pool currently pays out 0.7% a day every day while the trading pool pays out a variable return (approx 0.96-1.98% every business day). So far the trading pool has been giving back better returns. Also, the mining contracts are for 1 year and you do NOT get back your principal, while the trading contracts are for 120 days and you do get back your original investment. If you do decide to sign up, please use my referral link: https://bitcoin-trader.biz/Note: I am not affiliated with them in any way, but I am a very satisfied client  Also note that there was a true ponzi/hyip that tried to copy these guys called bitcoin-trade (instead of bitcoin-trader) which has since shut down. |
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bigtimespaghetti
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March 17, 2014, 01:25:52 PM |
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Pulled out my tiny principal, but may be interesting to check out this other site.
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crazyivan
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March 17, 2014, 01:34:48 PM |
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Hi all! So I researched these guys a while back and I ended up going with a different but similar service: https://bitcoin-trader.biz/?ref=lbritishMy reasoning was that there is more information available on Bitcoin Trader and it seemed like it has better odds of being a legitimate company. Here is the article where I learned about Bitcoin Trader: http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/02/12/bitcoin-trader-biz-let-bitcoin-trader-earn-money/According to the article, Bitcoin Trader started off as invite only and they really don't advertise much at all. Unlike BTC-Arbs, they steer clear of all HYIP forums. They also appear to be "friends" with the Bitcoin Foundation and KNC Miner (not that that means anything). Here is the Bitcointalk thread on them: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=393570.0. Stick to the "trading pool" - there is also a "mining pool" but the rates on that one have continuously been going down so the trading pool is a safer bet. I have both and the mining pool currently pays out 0.7% a day every day while the trading pool pays out a variable return (approx 0.96-1.98% every business day). So far the trading pool has been giving back better returns. Also, the mining contracts are for 1 year and you do NOT get back your principal, while the trading contracts are for 120 days and you do get back your original investment. If you do decide to sign up, please use my referral link: https://bitcoin-trader.biz/?ref=lbritishNote: I am not affiliated with them in any way, but I am a very satisfied client Also note that there was a true ponzi/hyip that tried to copy these guys called bitcoin-trade (instead of bitcoin-trader) which has since shut down. There is one major problem with BTC trader, as soon as you deposit BTC, they immediately transfer it to fiat. This means not only you do not have your principal in BTC but also you are not earning your interest in BTC. BTC is $620 now, what happens if it goes to $1200 a few days/weeks after I deposit my principal?? This is why I ll stick with BTC arbs for now. |
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Qwiner (OP)
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March 17, 2014, 02:10:55 PM |
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+ Must admit, this site is certainly older than btc-arbs.com However, - investor will only got their principle return only upon maturation, unlike btc-arbs, which is @ anytime - Although they do offer higher interest rate, but it is not compounded. Return is a fixed amount every period but unlike btc-arbs, slightly lower interest rate but the interest is compounding. But basic finance principle, investor should divest their investment, DO NOT PUT ALL YOUR EGGS INTO ONE BASkET |
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crazyivan
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March 17, 2014, 02:29:47 PM |
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Both sites are registered in Panama???
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hypersire
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March 17, 2014, 02:33:59 PM |
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But basic finance principle, investor should divest their investment, DO NOT PUT ALL YOUR EGGS INTO ONE BASkET
Exactly! I hope BTC-Arbs releases some more info about their operation soon as I will certainly put some BTC with them as well. Diversification is essential! Crazyivan - Good point, Bitcoin Trader does convert to fiat so that is good or bad depending on how you look at it... you are both protected and excluded from BTC price swings. |
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FreeJack2k2
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March 17, 2014, 05:41:26 PM |
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The sites being registered in Panama is because they are both using the same firm to keep their registration information private. It looks like there's a third party company apparently based in Panama that will administrate your domain registration for you, thereby keeping your personal details private.
I have observed that the daily profit updates on BTC-arbs are generally done in the afternoon, PST...which ends up being late in the evening, Switzerland time. Some days, they update the day's profits earlier, some days later, but it's always in the evening, Switzerland time. So to me, the timing jives with them being in that part of the world. Whether or not they're actually in Switzerland, I don't know - but the timing jives.
I looked at that BTC Trader site too, seems legit but I don't like being locked into a term agreement.
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crazyivan
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March 17, 2014, 06:40:03 PM |
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The sites being registered in Panama is because they are both using the same firm to keep their registration information private. It looks like there's a third party company apparently based in Panama that will administrate your domain registration for you, thereby keeping your personal details private.
I have observed that the daily profit updates on BTC-arbs are generally done in the afternoon, PST...which ends up being late in the evening, Switzerland time. Some days, they update the day's profits earlier, some days later, but it's always in the evening, Switzerland time. So to me, the timing jives with them being in that part of the world. Whether or not they're actually in Switzerland, I don't know - but the timing jives.
I looked at that BTC Trader site too, seems legit but I don't like being locked into a term agreement.
Term agreement? You mean not being able to withdraw whenever you like? |
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nightengale
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March 17, 2014, 07:08:58 PM |
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The sites being registered in Panama is because they are both using the same firm to keep their registration information private. It looks like there's a third party company apparently based in Panama that will administrate your domain registration for you, thereby keeping your personal details private.
I have observed that the daily profit updates on BTC-arbs are generally done in the afternoon, PST...which ends up being late in the evening, Switzerland time. Some days, they update the day's profits earlier, some days later, but it's always in the evening, Switzerland time. So to me, the timing jives with them being in that part of the world. Whether or not they're actually in Switzerland, I don't know - but the timing jives.
I looked at that BTC Trader site too, seems legit but I don't like being locked into a term agreement.
Term agreement? You mean not being able to withdraw whenever you like? As I read their materials, you commit the principal amount for a designated period of time, though I think you can withdraw the interest at any time. I haven't tried that one yet, so far I prefer the freedom of btc-arbs, but would like to diversify as well... |
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crazyivan
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March 17, 2014, 07:34:27 PM |
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I think that not being able to keep your deposit and interests in BTC is even larger issue. For example, you deposit 1 BTC and the price goes up from $600 to $1200 in the meantime. That is $600 loss, it would take a year to recoup that via their service. I know some people are gonna say what if BTC goes down? Well, if you believe BTC price might go down and stay down, why do you visit this forum at all?
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