2020 Democrats

[Spendulus]

This isn't an refutation to Joe Biden only condemning violence once it affects his poll numbers while standing idle as riots happen across the country, including Portland which is going on nearly month 3. I actually do care, believe it or not. But I'm also not a fool in taking Biden's word for his condemnation of violence while offering no plan to counteract these rioters whilst also spreading this baseless accusation that Jacob Blake was killed with malice intent due to racist cops without even having all the facts.

I'll ask you again. Where was his condemnation months ago when all this violence was taking place after George Floyd's death? Why is Joe Biden immediately jumping the gun and insinuating the officers were racist and that Jacob Blake was shot because of malice? Why did Joe Biden say the cops should be held accountable, implying guilt?

Because just like with George Floyd, who had three times the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his blood when he died, the reason he died had to be systemic racism and police brutality.

Because that's the narrative, and facts don't matter.

[suchmoon]

Because just like with George Floyd, who had three times the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his blood when he died, the reason he died had to be systemic racism and police brutality.

Because that's the narrative, and facts don't matter.

Speaking of narratives, you're repeating defense lawyer's argument as if it's a fact. And even if it was a fact, it doesn't make it right to kill a person. If someone has overdosed they need medical help, not cops strangling them. Just like being out after a curfew shouldn't carry a death penalty. Et cetera.

[c_atlas]

Because just like with George Floyd, who had three times the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his blood when he died, the reason he died had to be systemic racism and police brutality.

Because that's the narrative, and facts don't matter.

Speaking of narratives, you're repeating defense lawyer's argument as if it's a fact. And even if it was a fact, it doesn't make it right to kill a person. If someone has overdosed they need medical help, not cops strangling them. Just like being out after a curfew shouldn't carry a death penalty. Et cetera.

But if it is factual that he didn't die of asphyxiation and actually died of an overdose (along with a combination of existing health issues) that may or may not have been complicated by the stress of arrest (which we'll never know), then he wasn't murdered. In hindsight it's clear that he needed medical attention, but the body-cam video proves he continually resisted arrest, so the officers had to subdue him first.

What I don't understand is why they didn't attempt to revive him as soon as it was obvious he was restrained and unconscious. If it's true that he had a lethal dose of fentanyl in his system (along with a plethora of other issues), it's likely he would've died even if the officers hadn't shown up. If the technique Chauvin used to subdue Floyd wasn't the reason he couldn't breathe, and the stress of the situation only accelerated the inevitable, I think accuser's will be very hard-pressed to prove Chauvin killed Floyd.

[suchmoon]

What I don't understand is why they didn't attempt to revive him as soon as it was obvious he was restrained and unconscious. If it's true that he had a lethal dose of fentanyl in his system (along with a plethora of other issues), it's likely he would've died even if the officers hadn't shown up. If the technique Chauvin used to subdue Floyd wasn't the reason he couldn't breathe, and the stress of the situation only accelerated the inevitable, I think accuser's will be very hard-pressed to prove Chauvin killed Floyd.

I can't keep up with the latest conspiracy theories so perhaps Spendulus will clarify this, but I think the defense narrative is that Floyd ingested fentanyl during arrest. However I was referring mostly to the "had three times the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his blood when he died" claim, which makes it sound like he had overdosed. I don't think that's been proven. I don't think his blood was tested before his death. Apparently there was a high level of fentanyl found during autopsy but:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576505/

The very wide and overlapping ranges of postmortem fentanyl concentrations effectively nullify the utility of correlating the dose and expected postmortem concentration for any particular death. Based on the variable relationship between dose and blood concentration, the antemortem dose cannot be reliably predicted based on the postmortem concentration.

[Gyfts]

What I don't understand is why they didn't attempt to revive him as soon as it was obvious he was restrained and unconscious. If it's true that he had a lethal dose of fentanyl in his system (along with a plethora of other issues), it's likely he would've died even if the officers hadn't shown up. If the technique Chauvin used to subdue Floyd wasn't the reason he couldn't breathe, and the stress of the situation only accelerated the inevitable, I think accuser's will be very hard-pressed to prove Chauvin killed Floyd.

I can't keep up with the latest conspiracy theories so perhaps Spendulus will clarify this, but I think the defense narrative is that Floyd ingested fentanyl during arrest. However I was referring mostly to the "had three times the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his blood when he died" claim, which makes it sound like he had overdosed. I don't think that's been proven. I don't think his blood was tested before his death. Apparently there was a high level of fentanyl found during autopsy but:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576505/

The very wide and overlapping ranges of postmortem fentanyl concentrations effectively nullify the utility of correlating the dose and expected postmortem concentration for any particular death. Based on the variable relationship between dose and blood concentration, the antemortem dose cannot be reliably predicted based on the postmortem concentration.

Floyd had all the symptoms of someone that was going through some drug induced episode. He was literally foaming at the mouth while being walked to the police car. Regardless of whatever the actual postmortem concentration of fentanyl was, according to the body cam video, he was irate, screaming at the top of his lungs while being detained, flapping his entire body around, and speaking incoherently.

The doctor that performed the autopsy said without examining other circumstances if Floyd was just found home alone, from the toxicology report alone he would conclude Floyd died from a drug overdose.

Court documents highlight the dosage was well into lethal range -
https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/new-court-docs-say-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-his-system/89-ed69d09d-a9ec-481c-90fe-7acd4ead3d04

[Spendulus]

Because just like with George Floyd, who had three times the lethal dose of Fentanyl in his blood when he died, the reason he died had to be systemic racism and police brutality.

Because that's the narrative, and facts don't matter.

Speaking of narratives, you're repeating defense lawyer's argument as if it's a fact. And even if it was a fact, it doesn't make it right to kill a person. If someone has overdosed they need medical help, not cops strangling them. Just like being out after a curfew shouldn't carry a death penalty. Et cetera.

Hmm...we've got toxicology, it is what it is. But check this...

The FBI asked the Armed Forces Medical Examiner to review Baker's autopsy and they agreed with his findings, writing "his death was caused by the police subdual and restraint" with cardiovascular disease and drug intoxication contributing."

I'm fine with that take on the matter.

But regarding narratives.

The gibbering babboons of the LEFT need a simple narrative they can repeat endlessly.

NAR = (Systemic Racism + Police Brutality)^21

And here you are trying to bring in reality...
Do you need to be sent to the Re Education Camp?

[Gyfts]

Hmm...we've got toxicology, it is what it is. But check this...

The FBI asked the Armed Forces Medical Examiner to review Baker's autopsy and they agreed with his findings, writing "his death was caused by the police subdual and restraint" with cardiovascular disease and drug intoxication contributing."

I'm fine with that take on the matter.

But regarding narratives.

The gibbering babboons of the LEFT need a simple narrative they can repeat endlessly.

NAR = (Systemic Racism + Police Brutality)^21

And here you are trying to bring in reality...
Do you need to be sent to the Re Education Camp?

To add -
"Police subdual and restraint" is not asphyxiation or neck compression. No physical evidence supported asphyxiation according to the Minneapolis ME's office. I've said from the start, months ago -- if you want a conviction of Derek Chauvin, you need to prove that he wasn't resisting and presumably that he wasn't high/going through a drug induced episode which would mean the prosecution could articulate placing Floyd in restraint was not necessary and thus his death was preventable, even with his drug use and underlying conditions.

It's common when drug users that are high get into a physical altercation with police, their heart rate shoots up due to being restrained and they end up with cardiopulmonary arrest.

[nutildah]

You guys are just doing imaginary cartwheels off each other over imaginary piles of bullshit.

OK, we get it, you think Floyd deserved to be killed - whether it be for being a drug abuser or passing a fake 20 - we understood that months ago.

Alternatively, at best, the guy who died with a knee on his neck for 8 minutes would have died without a knee on his neck for 8 minutes.

That is a fantastic, Olympic-level leap.

[TwitchySeal]

To add -
"Police subdual and restraint" is not asphyxiation or neck compression. No physical evidence supported asphyxiation according to the Minneapolis ME's office.

[suchmoon]

That is a fantastic, Olympic-level leap.

Nah I think that barely qualifies for regionals. Olympic level would be explaining how one unarmed guy deserves to be shot 7 times at arm's length and another one with a rifle gets to go home after killing two people. I'm rooting for Quicksy.

[BADecker]

That is a fantastic, Olympic-level leap.

Nah I think that barely qualifies for regionals. Olympic level would be explaining how one unarmed guy deserves to be shot 7 times at arm's length and another one with a rifle gets to go home after killing two people. I'm rooting for Quicksy.

It's more like an unarmed guy with two arms with fists at the end of them, threatening and doing damage to others and their property, so that they had to protect their property in the only way they could... with their arms.

[suchmoon]

It's more like an unarmed guy with two arms with fists at the end of them, threatening and doing damage to others and their property, so that they had to protect their property in the only way they could... with their arms.

Not bad but you're disqualified for not completing the other half of the program. You're gonna have to try again - better luck next time.

[Spendulus]

To add -
"Police subdual and restraint" is not asphyxiation or neck compression. No physical evidence supported asphyxiation according to the Minneapolis ME's office.

Well, death by say, strangulation does leave evidence that would be found by the ME.

[TwitchySeal]

To add -
"Police subdual and restraint" is not asphyxiation or neck compression. No physical evidence supported asphyxiation according to the Minneapolis ME's office.

Well, death by say, strangulation does leave evidence that would be found by the ME.

Oh I thought you knew.  There are multiple witnesses and video of the cop with his knee on the guys neck for 8 minutes while Flloyd is literally begging for his life.  Ok technically he only begged for ~6 minutes, he was quiet for the last 2. (he died)

[c_atlas]

Well, death by say, strangulation does leave evidence that would be found by the ME.

Oh I thought you knew.  There are multiple witnesses and video of the cop with his knee on the guys neck for 8 minutes while Flloyd is literally begging for his life.  Ok technically he only begged for ~6 minutes, he was quiet for the last 2. (he died)

Yeah but there's also police body cam video (which was released recently) where Floyd begged for his life the moment he saw the police officer (a long time before he was on the ground). He also complained about not being able to breathe several times before he was put on the ground and restrained, he essentially cried wolf.

The technique Chauvin used was the proper protocol according to the training the Minneapolis PD give their officers. If Floyd was able to talk for an extended period of time and complained about being unable to breathe while in several positions (including sitting in the patrol car), and if Chauvin was taught his method of restraint was appropriate, then he wouldn't have been inclined to believe that he was strangling Floyd.

The ME didn't find evidence of asphyxiation, so strangulation couldn't have occurred. While they note that neck compression occurred (which is clear from the video), it's really up to the jury to decide if Floyd's death was a result of Chauvin's knee, or the drug OD.

Symptoms of a Fentanyl overdose include:

• Difficulty thinking, talking, or walking
• Dizziness
• Confusion
• Trouble breathing (respiratory rate very slow, irregular, or altogether stopped).
• Unresponsive loss of consciousness.

I think it's important for all the facts to come out. If Chauvin really did kill Floyd with his restraint method, then we need to know so it can be banned everywhere to avoid another horrific loss of life. If, on the other hand, Floyd was just another victim of the opioid crisis and Chauvin didn't kill him, then I think the way the media let this explode is honestly pretty reprehensible...

[suchmoon]

he essentially cried wolf
[...]
Trouble breathing (respiratory rate very slow, irregular, or altogether stopped).

So which is it then, cried wolf or had actual trouble breathing?

[Gyfts]

OK, we get it, you think Floyd deserved to be killed - whether it be for being a drug abuser or passing a fake 20 - we understood that months ago.

No, I don't. You know this bullshit to be false too but I have no clue why you keep peddling it. I'm just letting you know that when this trial starts, there's a 99.99 percent chance Chauvin walks if he finds an impartial jury and I promise you, I will let you know if I'm on the jury so we really will know it's impartial  

Oh and btw, you know there are OIS's that I will NOT stand with the officer's actions? Not sure if you think I'm taking the officer's side just for the fuck of it but shooting of Walter Scott, Botham Jean, are examples where the shootings are unjustified (and the officers went to jail). Both these guys were unarmed black men.

To add -
"Police subdual and restraint" is not asphyxiation or neck compression. No physical evidence supported asphyxiation according to the Minneapolis ME's office.

Again, if you want to charge Chauvin with 2nd degree murder (or was it 3rd??), you need to prove Chauvin caused death. The ME's officer examined the neck of Floyd and did not find any damaged tissue or any evidence of asphyxiation/strangulation. Yes, it was ruled a homicide. But having a heart attack while resisting law enforcement resulting in a homicide doesn't imply guilt.

[suchmoon]

OK, we get it, you think Floyd deserved to be killed - whether it be for being a drug abuser or passing a fake 20 - we understood that months ago.

No, I don't. You know this bullshit to be false too but I have no clue why you keep peddling it.
[...]
Again, if you want to charge Chauvin with 2nd degree murder (or was it 3rd??), you need to prove Chauvin caused death. The ME's officer examined the neck of Floyd and did not find any damaged tissue or any evidence of asphyxiation/strangulation. Yes, it was ruled a homicide. But having a heart attack while resisting law enforcement resulting in a homicide doesn't imply guilt.

If you're saying that there was homicide but not unjustified (not murder) then it looks like nutildah is right. Not sure how you can have it both ways but please try.

[Gyfts]

OK, we get it, you think Floyd deserved to be killed - whether it be for being a drug abuser or passing a fake 20 - we understood that months ago.

No, I don't. You know this bullshit to be false too but I have no clue why you keep peddling it.
[...]
Again, if you want to charge Chauvin with 2nd degree murder (or was it 3rd??), you need to prove Chauvin caused death. The ME's officer examined the neck of Floyd and did not find any damaged tissue or any evidence of asphyxiation/strangulation. Yes, it was ruled a homicide. But having a heart attack while resisting law enforcement resulting in a homicide doesn't imply guilt.

If you're saying that there was homicide but not unjustified (not murder) then it looks like nutildah is right. Not sure how you can have it both ways but please try.

If you're asking for clarification in good faith, I'll clarify what I mean- Homicide can occur without it being unjustified. For example, man with a gun shoots at police, police fire back killing the man. ME rules homicide (homicide simply means the death was not natural and that there were human factors involved, it doesn't imply guilt). So police committed a homicide in this example without it being unjustified.

In legal context, murder usually means a killing with malice intent, which is why I'm not using the word murder unless evidence is released that Chauvin and the other officers willfully were trying to kill Floyd.

[Spendulus]

To add -
"Police subdual and restraint" is not asphyxiation or neck compression. No physical evidence supported asphyxiation according to the Minneapolis ME's office.

Well, death by say, strangulation does leave evidence that would be found by the ME.

Oh I thought you knew.  There are multiple witnesses and video of the cop with his knee on the guys neck for 8 minutes while Flloyd is literally begging for his life.  Ok technically he only begged for ~6 minutes, he was quiet for the last 2. (he died)

Got it. But I'm fine with the Medical Examiner's summary of the causes of death. Including any revisions he may make to it, and any uncertainties that may exist.

I'm not at all fine with yours, and that was my initial note. You're trying to fit the events into your/your group/your tribe's narrative.

Your narrative is Systemic Racism + Police Brutality