Buy Bitcoin, and HODL!

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

Perhaps you're probably correct, about your assumption that how much of your discretionary or disposable income is what determines how much you should invest rather than how much you earn, but I'd like to point out to you @Tmoonz that you're wrong from a different view point; bitcoin investment is not a default option in which you must invest what you have at your discretion; it's an important choice that should be taken seriously.

It seems to me that sometimes folks get their investment into bitcoin wrong because they might prioritize it beyond their considerations of their disposable income.. so then they get into trouble.

Sure, there is no problem prioritizing your investment into bitcoin, but it still has to come from your disposable income rather than some abstract decision to buy $100 per week of bitcoin no matter what - and then you end up not even having enough to cover your expenses or otherwise putting yourself into a predicament that could have had easily been avoided with a tad bit more appreciation regarding your budgetary (and psychological) balancing considerations.

Perhaps when one talks about investing in bitcoin, it is supposed to be a very important part of one's life that is worth cutting other expenses to increase the rate and/or level of your investment; your lifestyle can wait for a moment, but bitcoin cannot, so you must sometimes not make yourself too comfortable by investing a small portion of your income in bitcoin, instead take it upon yourself to make a better portion of your income count by investing it in bitcoin.

There is nothing wrong with your ideas of cutting some of your discretionary expenses down to amounts that end up prioritizing bitcoin, but that is a different question in regards to whether you are prioritizing bitcoin beyond your discretionary income.

Yeah, you may be able to drive a Toyota rather than a Lambo.. no problem. You may be able to go out to eat 1 per week rather than 3 times per week, and there are a variety of ways in which our own choices of expenses are deprioritizing investing into bitcoin, but that still does not mean that investing into bitcoin can either go higher than discretionary income or that it makes sense to cut some expenses that may well be important to your quality of life in other ways including that if you choose to eat really cheap food, you might end up with health problems that could have had been avoided.. or even there might be needs for you to take your girlfriend/wife out for dinner (or other ways of spending money on her) from time to time in order to preserve your relationship... or some kinds of normalcies in your life that sometimes involve expenses.. including in some of your social circles, you might sometimes need to spend money on friends/relatives, even though maybe they don't deserve it or appreciate your spending on them, but there might be some needs to preserve various relationships with people that sometimes will cost money and take away from your ability to buy as many sats as you might prefer to buy in that week (or that particular month).

For instance, if you earn $200 per week and your weekly spending for the so-called lifestyle is $190, and you have roughly $10 in discretionary or disposable income, is that a good investment? Absolutely not! So it's basically how much you earn and a percentage you're willing to give for the future, rather than what's in your disposable income, because bitcoin isn't like shitcoin, where you can put whatever you want, but you decide how much of your income should be invested in your long-term investment scheme.

You seem to be fighting with the idea of discretionary income, which seems like a semantics fight rather than a substantive fight... since surely you seem to realize and recognize that there may well be limits on how much any of us is able to invest into bitcoin on a weekly/monthly basis and there are ways that we can attempt to prioritize our expenses.. or even work on ways to increase our income.. .. so yeah, no problem with providing examples in which priorities might be changed and still be within bounds of discretionary income in order to invest into bitcoin or however else a person might choose to invest his time, money and/or energies.

[edited out]

If the investor can manage himself and his investment perfectly then I see no problem with it. Let's not just look at this from one angle which is the negative aspect of it. Let's look at the positive aspect of aggressive buying too, there are people in bitcoin history who invested aggressively and managed it very well and became successful in the end. Provided you have set up things that will help successful hold your bitcoin without selling it off premature. Let's look at the golden picture here for people who invest aggressively, they end up having lots of bitcoin in their possession and stand a better chance of profitability. There are reasons why some investors tries being agressive in their buy, it could be that the investor is starting his bitcoin journey late, and he want to meet up some level of bitcoin. Provided you have the means to sustain the investment and run his life off it.

I agree with almost all of what you are saying Justbillywitt; however, I find very little value in any kind of idea that any of us should be striving and/or able to achieve perfection in terms of our bitcoin accumulation and/or our balancing of our priorities.

Personally, I think that it is better to consider the matter in terms of some kind of a balancing of making decently good choices within a range of possibilities that give us more and more options the longer that we do it.. so that we are likely just trying to do a good and comfortable job rather than getting it perfect, and sure, I am not suggesting to be sloppy or anything like that since from time to time we might identify areas in which we can tweak one direction or another, and we can even choose whether or not to tweak, and maybe the tweak might not even be much better than our earlier set path, but we can still attempt to make various kinds of improvements from time to time, yet I doubt that we are necessarily achieving perfection, even while at the same time, we might feel that we are achieving a certain level of comfort in terms of balancing our own finances and psychology.

[edited out]

You have to understand that what you use with your disposable income is optional, everyone has what they fancy more than the other, it's good if you prefer to use that money to build your bitcoin investment, but I still think you Don understand what a disposable income is.

For instance if I earn up to 1000$ and i have bills i have to pay like my transportation, maybe School project I am running, food expenses, electricity bills this are all necessary expenses that must be attended to before investing in Bitcoin

Let's say 100$ goes for transportation
                 400$ goes for project
                 150$ goes for food
                  50$  goes for electricity bill

What's left of that is your discretionary income which is 300$ left, you could decide to keep 100$ for floats in case of unexpected or luxury expenses, and 50$ for an extra reserve cash or what ever other systems your building and depending on your financial situation, what's left can go to bitcoin at once for DCA and if eventually your floats isn't used up totally  you can use it back for investing in bitcoin.

Everyone financial needs are different and someone with same income would have more discretionary income after expenses has been removed.

Churchillvv is not making a completely invalid point, since he might be saying that a guy who might have $100 in transportation expenses, might choose to buy a car or buy a lambo rather than a Toyota, so that guy might not be adequately grappling with his discretionary income because he is creating expenses that are higher than he needs, and he should be prioritizing bitcoin and cutting back on some of those expenses.. .which sure sometimes that may be possible and sometimes it might not be as practical as Churchillvv seems to be suggesting.  Sure, another thing, which seems to be part of Churchillvv's point, is that some folks might consider their Lambo as a transportation expenses, which truly it is partly a transportation expense, but the Toyota might be more practical and there might even be instance  in which it might be better to use public transportation, take uber or some alternative to actually owning a car - except maybe in the case of a business, the car might be specifically used for direct work reasons.

[GeorgeJohn]

Waiting is not an investment strategy... whether your starting goal (ideas) is 1 bitcoin or some other amount...
Hmm, I get the point now.

Even without any knowledge, one can still start investing in Bitcoin and in the process of investing one can learn.

Exactly  now you get the point.... it will be very stupid to wait and learn when the price of What you're learning keeps appreciating day by day.
Once you're determined  then the investment should started ASAP without any further delay and the best strategy beginners could use without even knowing anything about bitcoin  is the DCA strategy , its  simple and straightforward ...
Besides, learning to me is a continuous  process which might even take forever so waiting  to learn before investing when you think you know it all .

Are you aware that anything that has to do with bitcoin investment you need to absolutely precaution to comprehend the effect after investing and before investment, someone who has not know the protocols of bitcoin can not quick to invest when it has not know the preamble of bitcoin investment, at least you observe the situation or the condition of the market before investment, so therefore learning and observation is one of the major thing someone who is new in cryptocurrency and also in bitcoin have to do, do not dispute a fact that bitcoin price is accelerating everyday and that will deprived someone who is new into the system not to gather more knowledge of bitcoin before investment, I think that fact is not acknowledge-able from my perspective.

I can see that you want to make me look like the bad one here so that you will be the good one. My suggestion was clearly for @rachael9385 because she said that people don't need any knowledge before they can start investing in bitcoin. Can someone who doesn't know anything about bitcoin start investing in it? The three months I mentioned for the reserve funds are the minimum months our reserve funds should serve us. You can keep reserve funds that will serve you for more than that if you are financially stable. I also want you to know that there's always room to rebuild your reserve funds so that it helps you accumulate the quantity of bitcoin you want and hold it until the expected year you want to sell your bitcoin

Well the thing is that , is not like they don't require any knowledge before  investing in Bitcoin. But having the basic knowledge of bitcoin one is good to go into investing in bitcoin without having any technical knowledge . All they just need is to have some good cashflow and some nice basic knowledge on how Bitcoin work. Just as time wait for no one that how the price movement wait for no one so if one decide to gather some deep knowledge and technical knowledge on how bitcoin before going into it , such individual will only endup missing out big time.

That's why is better to start accumulating, and as time goes on one can decide to focus on gaining more knowledge while he or she are  accumulating and holding . With such act the chances of them building a nice stash , is pretty high.

to invest in bitcoin can be achieve very faster, but you have to know the rules and conditions that governors the rules, waking up one or one night to invest in bitcoin good decisions, but as someone who wants to prosper in bitcoin investment you have to acquire the knowledge first, because its knowledge that matters most for bitcoin investment, when someone that have wisdom or knowledge is accumulating bitcoin is different from someone who don't know when to accumulate bitcoin is accumulating bitcoin, so try to get the knowledge first.

[red4slash]

The concept is not like that buddy, regardless of what rank we are here, in the end we are free to argue and debate with anyone because there is no prohibition when we argue with people who are ranked higher and vice versa. This is a free forum where we can express ourselves towards the discussion that we are discussing even though it is legendary with a newbie I don't think it is a problem.

Back to the original topic.
JJG I don't really understand the sentence you said, actually I agree with the sentence “Being able to invest into something like bitcoin is called having disposable income” But on the other hand isn't it when looking on the one hand when we start investing and making purchases in bitcoin isn't what we put in can also be called initial capital for us to be in bitcoin because even though this is a long-term investment, still recording initial capital is important so that we can find out how much we spend to buy bitcoin and how much profit (surflus) we will have in the future as part of the capital plus the profit earned.
I'm a little confused, am I missing something here?

I agree with your point about anyone can argue or debate with whomever they want.

Regarding your question about the idea of "initial capital," you can call your investment into bitcoin whatever you like, and if you are calling it disposable/discretionary income or you are calling it capital, it comes off as a bit strange if someone has an income of $500 per month and expenses of $400 per month, and they are putting $10 per week into bitcoin.  Difficult (and seemingly misleading to me) to call that $10 per week initial capital, but you can call it whatever  you like.

Part of my point, and many guys here seem to "get it" is that if you are starting to invest into bitcoin, and the only thing that you have is some quantity of disposable/discretionary income that you are investing into bitcoin, then likely you are converting your disposable income into capital, especially after many years of investing into bitcoin, but part of the fact that you don't really have any extra money (except your disposable/discretionary income, it is seems strange and misleading to be calling that capital, even if it might later add up in such a way that the "capital" label will start to make more sense.

Maybe if indeed when we enter the total monthly investment expenses plus our needs for 1 month it will seem to be misleading but in this case I personally distinguish the calculation notes to make it easier for myself to manage the finances that I do.
For example, this month I have an income of around $300 a month and I spend $200 for personal needs and around $50 to buy bitcoin. I will make different notes for investments where indeed in the ledger the financial records will definitely remain $250 as this month's expenses but when talking about bitcoin we definitely need another record where there must be a record in the expenses we make for the purchase of bitcoin so that we know how much we have spent on bitcoin while we are here and that in my opinion is important as a consideration and as a belief that in the end being in bitcoin is profitable so that we don't not know how much of our money we spend on bitcoin and how much profit we can take.

But indeed in the end maybe this depends on what we are comfortable doing because the most important thing in this case is that we don't mess around with the way we manage money regardless of the different ways that are done and the mention of something in the end the goal remains the same, namely bitcoin investment.

[promise444c5]

Waiting is not an investment strategy... whether your starting goal (ideas) is 1 bitcoin or some other amount...
Hmm, I get the point now.

Even without any knowledge, one can still start investing in Bitcoin and in the process of investing one can learn.

Edited out

Are you aware that anything that has to do with bitcoin investment you need to absolutely precaution to comprehend the effect after investing and before investment, someone who has not know the protocols of bitcoin can not quick to invest when it has not know the preamble of bitcoin investment, at least you observe the situation or the condition of the market before investment, so therefore learning and observation is one of the major thing someone who is new in cryptocurrency

The question every beginner must ask themselves if they really want observe before investing is I'm I in for the long-term or short term investment.... I wouldn't say more than that to avoid repetition

[JayJuanGee]

Waiting is not an investment strategy... whether your starting goal (ideas) is 1 bitcoin or some other amount...
Hmm, I get the point now.

Even without any knowledge, one can still start investing in Bitcoin and in the process of investing one can learn.

Exactly  now you get the point.... it will be very stupid to wait and learn when the price of What you're learning keeps appreciating day by day.
Once you're determined  then the investment should started ASAP without any further delay and the best strategy beginners could use without even knowing anything about bitcoin  is the DCA strategy , its  simple and straightforward ...
Besides, learning to me is a continuous  process which might even take forever so waiting  to learn before investing when you think you know it all ( that person must be a clown) is so dumb, although as a beginner  you need to know some basics like choosing a wallet and keeping it keys safe( that can be learnt in just a day), he/she will be holding  there's  no need for getting too much In learning about the technicals as a beginner although understanding how transaction works while you invest could be a great idea so you won't get your self stucked up with alot of inputs on the long run, focusing  on your DCA strategy will be the greatest advice for beginners  too even when they already learn other strategies, a time will come when there will be a need for other strategies which is definitely not at the beginning of ones investment  .

Sometimes too much in strategy will make beginners confused in carrying out their investments. I believe beginners need a basic foundation to carry out their strategic planning better and achieve the targets they want. The big difference may be in terms of knowledge about Bitcoin, which means beginners may need an approach to see the big cycles that Bitcoin has gone through. Yes, basically beginners can start with the DCA Strategy if they are not able to think about the distribution of funds for several other strategy practices.

Even though investment success is triggered by individual self-confidence, in Bitcoin investment you must be able to know more about Bitcoin and why you are interested in buying and holding it. Sometimes people out there are still quite unfamiliar with Bitcoin and they don't understand enough and this is where an approach is needed for those who are really beginners in investing in Bitcoin.

In essence, we are in the modern era and Bitcoin has the advantage of being a very promising investment for old age. Apart from that, the price of Bitcoin is very fluctuating and use it cold money that is ready to lose. I mean you don't have to worry if the price drops very deeply because you really don't need the money you invest in Bitcoin for other purposes in your life.

Even though many large companies continue to buy Bitcoin, I think there are still many people who don't understand Bitcoin. Maybe because they miss out on information because they live in remote areas or have difficulty accessing the internet. Yes, for those of us who have bought on dips, keep the Bitcoin we have for the long term.

The most basic things that beginners (newbies) need to know is about their own personal finances and not about bitcoin.

So the main thing that they need to know is whether or not they have a discretionary income and a kind of ballpark idea of what it might be, and surely they might have really shitty financial circumstances, which would mean that they need to invest less rather than more while they are sorting out their particulars.

There may be some need to figure out information regarding from where to source the first bitcoin purchases, yet in the very beginning there may well be absolutely no need to figure out how to achieve self-custody, even though self-custody may well be some kind of goal to get to that point in a fairly soon period of time after starting to invest into bitcoin (yeah, without self-custody it is price exposure and not ownership of actual bitcoin, yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin). 

[edited out]

What I'm wondering is who you are suggesting this to, because I don't think @JayJuanGee knows about it, and neither does @rachael9385. I am quite sure that these two people must already know very well about Bitcoin and are also very solid in their knowledge of Bitcoin so that it will not be so difficult for them to make an investment in Bitcoin because they definitely know how to use funds for Bitcoin. Moreover, if the reserve funds you are referring to can only be relied on for three months, at least it will not be enough for investors who have the aim of long-term investment in Bitcoin.

Because for an investor who has a strong desire to be able to invest in Bitcoin, he will definitely look for a way to do this without interfering with his own activities in life. Because this difficulty usually occurs for those who are lazy and don't want to look for ways to invest in Bitcoin or for those who still don't believe in Bitcoin at this time and forever.

Surely, I am not of the position that a newbie needs to learn about self-custody prior to getting started (with bitcoin price exposure), and I frequently suggest that the main things to know is about some ballpark ideas about your disposable income being enough to get started investing into bitcoin, whether that is starting with $100 per week or $10 per week or some other amount that fits into the newbie's financial/psychological situation.. and yeah, there may well be some needs to error on the side of conservative, if the newbie might not have a strong grasp of his disposable income beyond merely having ballpark ideas that he has a disposable income.

Another thing that other forum members refer to is having conviction about bitcoin, and surely there might not need to be any kind of strong conviction to get started, yet the lack of conviction and/or knowledge about bitcoin may well justify investing less aggressively during any process to build such conviction.. so yeah, maybe there is enough of a conviction to start to invest $10 per week based on the recommendation of a friend, but then later there might be increased conviction that allows the same person to increase the weekly amount to $100 or some higher amount...or to take other investment actions depending on their actual disposable income and other aspects of their financial situation, including various considerations of their 9 factors that can be built upon and studies. .and even tweaked for years down the road, yet not even having strong grasps of all of the 9 factors would not prevent from getting started into bitcoin, but having strong grasp of the 9 factors could well justify becoming more aggressive in terms of bitcoin investing, if that is what the newbie considers to be a reasonable/prudent approach based on their assessment of those matters..

Even in business if you don't have any basis knowledge concerning the business you want to venture into you will definitely have a run down because you don't have any basis knowledge how the business works so I believe having basis knowledge in what so ever thing you want to do is very important. For I have seen someone that failed in business because he saw others doing well in and he decided to venture into such business without even having any basis knowledge about the business at the end the business collapse due to zero knowledge concerning such business.

One of the better things about bitcoin is that it is not a business, so you can choose your level of commitment with way less knowledge and/or skills. .and you can figure it out as you go.

Bitcoin has a potential to open the door to a lot of folks who otherwise would not be in a very good position to invest. .but yeah, they still have to be careful to not overthink some of the comparisons.. and yeah, it can still take a long time to really get to know bitcoin (and still not really know it very well), but even with all of that, an overwhelming majority of the world's population remains either low coiners or no coiners, and perhaps somewhere in the ballpark of 99%-ish, so the default idea in regards to bitcoin is to get started rather than fucking around with comparisons that either do not fit very well or they suggest waiting or needs to study bitcoin more....  blah blah blah.

[edited out]

Maybe if indeed when we enter the total monthly investment expenses plus our needs for 1 month it will seem to be misleading but in this case I personally distinguish the calculation notes to make it easier for myself to manage the finances that I do.
For example, this month I have an income of around $300 a month and I spend $200 for personal needs and around $50 to buy bitcoin. I will make different notes for investments where indeed in the ledger the financial records will definitely remain $250 as this month's expenses but when talking about bitcoin we definitely need another record where there must be a record in the expenses we make for the purchase of bitcoin so that we know how much we have spent on bitcoin while we are here and that in my opinion is important as a consideration and as a belief that in the end being in bitcoin is profitable so that we don't not know how much of our money we spend on bitcoin and how much profit we can take.

But indeed in the end maybe this depends on what we are comfortable doing because the most important thing in this case is that we don't mess around with the way we manage money regardless of the different ways that are done and the mention of something in the end the goal remains the same, namely bitcoin investment.

In your example, if a guy is buying bitcoin with 25% of his expenses (50/200), then after about 4 years, the guy would have invested a whole year's worth of his expenses into bitcoin.. .So that would not be a bad place to be in terms of building a BTC holdings that has greater chances of getting him to fuck you status or some kind of a status in which he can start to employ sustainable withdrawal.

I wonder how important your ideas about profit taking is?  Sure we want to be in profits or even presume ourselves to be in profits with the passage of time, yet if the guy in your example continues with his practice of investing 25% of his expenses into bitcoin per year for 12 years, he has therefore invested 3 years worth of his expenses into bitcoin at the 12 year mark.  So then maybe the other question might be how bitcoin ended up performing over that time in order to allow the amount invested to grow at least with the cost of living increases and perhaps more than that. ... even though there are no guarantees...

So I am not necessarily going to presume regarding how much profits the guy might be in, yet I would suggest that the value of his holdings may well help to guide him in regards to whether he needs to continue to invest/accumulate bitcoin or if he might bd ready to start to employ some other strategies that might either be just maintenance or perhaps getting into various kinds of withdrawal practices, whether that would be time-based withdrawals and/or raking kinds of strategies.

Surely we make our own assessments regarding where we are at and how we might want to replace and/or supplement our income with bitcoin withdrawals if we happen to get ourselves into such a position.

[I_Anime]

to invest in bitcoin can be achieve very faster, but you have to know the rules and conditions that governors the rules, waking up one or one night to invest in bitcoin good decisions, but as someone who wants to prosper in bitcoin investment you have to acquire the knowledge first, because its knowledge that matters most for bitcoin investment, when someone that have wisdom or knowledge is accumulating bitcoin is different from someone who don't know when to accumulate bitcoin is accumulating bitcoin, so try to get the knowledge first

Having a good knowledge when it comes to Bitcoin accumulation is actually good and nice . But  not accumulating due to the urge acquiring more knowledge is not actually nice , for instance most of us started our Bitcoin accumulating and holding while learning, and the funny thing is that we are still learning. So what am saying is that we don't have to wait till we have gotten some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before thinking of investing and all that. But one can just start accumulating without having the knowledge on how Bitcoin work and what's all about , and how to purchase and secure it , that's where having the basic knowledge first comes In .

And I believe that they are alot of folks here with that same mindset of wanting to gather some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before starting their Bitcoin investment journey, and most of them will only endup regretting not starting their accummulation and holding on time , Because the right thing to do is as one is accumulating more Bitcoin, as same time he or she should focus on learning too.

Waiting is not an investment strategy... whether your starting goal (ideas) is 1 bitcoin or some other amount...
Hmm, I get the point now.

Even without any knowledge, one can still start investing in Bitcoin and in the process of investing one can learn.

Edited out

Are you aware that anything that has to do with bitcoin investment you need to absolutely precaution to comprehend the effect after investing and before investment, someone who has not know the protocols of bitcoin can not quick to invest when it has not know the preamble of bitcoin investment, at least you observe the situation or the condition of the market before investment, so therefore learning and observation is one of the major thing someone who is new in cryptocurrency

The question every beginner must ask themselves if they really want observe before investing is I'm I in for the long-term or short term investment.... I wouldn't say more than that to avoid repetition

Long-term holding just the best , most time see those that are in for short-term profits as traders or  as someone that's gambling with his funds. So no need for one to stress or her self analysing the market instead just accumulate while holding and when gotten to a nice number, scrape out some profits.

[Smilevictorobinna]

Waiting is not an investment strategy... whether your starting goal (ideas) is 1 bitcoin or some other amount...
Hmm, I get the point now.

Even without any knowledge, one can still start investing in Bitcoin and in the process of investing one can learn.

Exactly  now you get the point.... it will be very stupid to wait and learn when the price of What you're learning keeps appreciating day by day.
Once you're determined  then the investment should started ASAP without any further delay and the best strategy beginners could use without even knowing anything about bitcoin  is the DCA strategy , its  simple and straightforward ...
Besides, learning to me is a continuous  process which might even take forever so waiting  to learn before investing when you think you know it all ( that person must be a clown) is so dumb, although as a beginner  you need to know some basics like choosing a wallet and keeping it keys safe( that can be learnt in just a day), he/she will be holding  there's  no need for getting too much In learning about the technicals as a beginner although understanding how transaction works while you invest could be a great idea so you won't get your self stucked up with alot of inputs on the long run, focusing  on your DCA strategy will be the greatest advice for beginners  too even when they already learn other strategies, a time will come when there will be a need for other strategies which is definitely not at the beginning of ones investment  .

Sometimes too much in strategy will make beginners confused in carrying out their investments. I believe beginners need a basic foundation to carry out their strategic planning better and achieve the targets they want. The big difference may be in terms of knowledge about Bitcoin, which means beginners may need an approach to see the big cycles that Bitcoin has gone through. Yes, basically beginners can start with the DCA Strategy if they are not able to think about the distribution of funds for several other strategy practices.

Even though investment success is triggered by individual self-confidence, in Bitcoin investment you must be able to know more about Bitcoin and why you are interested in buying and holding it. Sometimes people out there are still quite unfamiliar with Bitcoin and they don't understand enough and this is where an approach is needed for those who are really beginners in investing in Bitcoin.

In essence, we are in the modern era and Bitcoin has the advantage of being a very promising investment for old age. Apart from that, the price of Bitcoin is very fluctuating and use it cold money that is ready to lose. I mean you don't have to worry if the price drops very deeply because you really don't need the money you invest in Bitcoin for other purposes in your life.

Even though many large companies continue to buy Bitcoin, I think there are still many people who don't understand Bitcoin. Maybe because they miss out on information because they live in remote areas or have difficulty accessing the internet. Yes, for those of us who have bought on dips, keep the Bitcoin we have for the long term.

The most basic things that beginners (newbies) need to know is about their own personal finances and not about bitcoin.

So the main thing that they need to know is whether or not they have a discretionary income and a kind of ballpark idea of what it might be, and surely they might have really shitty financial circumstances, which would mean that they need to invest less rather than more while they are sorting out their particulars.

There may be some need to figure out information regarding from where to source the first bitcoin purchases, yet in the very beginning there may well be absolutely no need to figure out how to achieve self-custody, even though self-custody may well be some kind of goal to get to that point in a fairly soon period of time after starting to invest into bitcoin (yeah, without self-custody it is price exposure and not ownership of actual bitcoin, yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin). 

What about those people that has full understanding about there finance and also has a discretionary income. the knowledge of Bitcoin is different from that of finance, you can be a beginner (newbie) but have all knowledge about financial management.
So if such person's are going into Bitcoin investment all they need to know is how to invest and how Bitcoin works.
I agree with you and I believe having knowledge of self custody is very important and yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin you are very correct.

A lot of people has good knowledge of financial strength and management and also good knowledge in Bitcoin and all they need is a good strategy on how to start and I believe too much in strategy will make beginners confused in carrying out their investment except they are very much articulate.

[Tmoonz]

Waiting is not an investment strategy... whether your starting goal (ideas) is 1 bitcoin or some other amount...
Hmm, I get the point now.

Even without any knowledge, one can still start investing in Bitcoin and in the process of investing one can learn.

Exactly  now you get the point.... it will be very stupid to wait and learn when the price of What you're learning keeps appreciating day by day.
Once you're determined  then the investment should started ASAP without any further delay and the best strategy beginners could use without even knowing anything about bitcoin  is the DCA strategy , its  simple and straightforward ...
Besides, learning to me is a continuous  process which might even take forever so waiting  to learn before investing when you think you know it all .

Are you aware that anything that has to do with bitcoin investment you need to absolutely precaution to comprehend the effect after investing and before investment, someone who has not know the protocols of bitcoin can not quick to invest when it has not know the preamble of bitcoin investment, at least you observe the situation or the condition of the market before investment, so therefore learning and observation is one of the major thing someone who is new in cryptocurrency and also in bitcoin have to do, do not dispute a fact that bitcoin price is accelerating everyday and that will deprived someone who is new into the system not to gather more knowledge of bitcoin before investment, I think that fact is not acknowledge-able from my perspective.

I can see that you want to make me look like the bad one here so that you will be the good one. My suggestion was clearly for @rachael9385 because she said that people don't need any knowledge before they can start investing in bitcoin. Can someone who doesn't know anything about bitcoin start investing in it? The three months I mentioned for the reserve funds are the minimum months our reserve funds should serve us. You can keep reserve funds that will serve you for more than that if you are financially stable. I also want you to know that there's always room to rebuild your reserve funds so that it helps you accumulate the quantity of bitcoin you want and hold it until the expected year you want to sell your bitcoin

Well the thing is that , is not like they don't require any knowledge before  investing in Bitcoin. But having the basic knowledge of bitcoin one is good to go into investing in bitcoin without having any technical knowledge . All they just need is to have some good cashflow and some nice basic knowledge on how Bitcoin work. Just as time wait for no one that how the price movement wait for no one so if one decide to gather some deep knowledge and technical knowledge on how bitcoin before going into it , such individual will only endup missing out big time.

That's why is better to start accumulating, and as time goes on one can decide to focus on gaining more knowledge while he or she are  accumulating and holding . With such act the chances of them building a nice stash , is pretty high.

to invest in bitcoin can be achieve very faster, but you have to know the rules and conditions that governors the rules, waking up one or one night to invest in bitcoin good decisions, but as someone who wants to prosper in bitcoin investment you have to acquire the knowledge first, because its knowledge that matters most for bitcoin investment, when someone that have wisdom or knowledge is accumulating bitcoin is different from someone who don't know when to accumulate bitcoin is accumulating bitcoin, so try to get the knowledge first.

Investing in Bitcoin has gone beyond answering the question when to invest or accumulate, the logic has been that invest when the money is readily available, any time you accumulate is good if the intention is to hold, with dca strategy you will have no business considering when to accumulate as you will be making purchases on regular intervals irrespective of the price point either weekly or monthly, you don't need much of this wisdom or knowledge to accumulate Bitcoin, figure out the level of your disposable and get the fucking started.

What about those people that has full understanding about there finance and also has a discretionary income. the knowledge of Bitcoin is different from that of finance, you can be a beginner (newbie) but have all knowledge about financial management.
So if such person's are going into Bitcoin investment all they need to know is how to invest and how Bitcoin works.
I agree with you and I believe having knowledge of self custody is very important and yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin you are very correct.

A lot of people has good knowledge of financial strength and management and also good knowledge in Bitcoin and all they need is a good strategy on how to start and I believe too much in strategy will make beginners confused in carrying out their investment except they are very much articulate.

The choice of strategy or strategies is a sole decision of an investor and he or she must tailor it down to suits him or her in terms of financial situation, risky tolerance level, investment goals and objectives inclusive.

[bhadz]

What about those people that has full understanding about there finance and also has a discretionary income. the knowledge of Bitcoin is different from that of finance, you can be a beginner (newbie) but have all knowledge about financial management.
So if such person's are going into Bitcoin investment all they need to know is how to invest and how Bitcoin works.
I agree with you and I believe having knowledge of self custody is very important and yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin you are very correct.

While I agree to you in most of what you've said but learning how to invest in Bitcoin isn't just all about how to invest and how Bitcoin works. There's so much they need to learn but I don't want to complicate it because they'd come by to that once they're already in. Like how to protect themselves from potential scams and phishing, so knowing the volatility of Bitcoin which is included on how BTC works but all of those will be learned by the newbies once they have allotted money on BTC already.

A lot of people has good knowledge of financial strength and management and also good knowledge in Bitcoin and all they need is a good strategy on how to start and I believe too much in strategy will make beginners confused in carrying out their investment except they are very much articulate.

IMHO, there is no need for so much strategy before someone invests in BTC. Having the basic and common knowledge is enough to start but even if they have a background in finance, BTC is totally different from what they used to see but that's a good start if they have it because they're already well versed with taking risk.

[avp2306]

What about those people that has full understanding about there finance and also has a discretionary income. the knowledge of Bitcoin is different from that of finance, you can be a beginner (newbie) but have all knowledge about financial management.
So if such person's are going into Bitcoin investment all they need to know is how to invest and how Bitcoin works.
I agree with you and I believe having knowledge of self custody is very important and yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin you are very correct.

While I agree to you in most of what you've said but learning how to invest in Bitcoin isn't just all about how to invest and how Bitcoin works. There's so much they need to learn but I don't want to complicate it because they'd come by to that once they're already in. Like how to protect themselves from potential scams and phishing, so knowing the volatility of Bitcoin which is included on how BTC works but all of those will be learned by the newbies once they have allotted money on BTC already.

Well that only imply if you try to invest on short term since you really need to consider those risk and learn from it. But erase those thoughts regarding on those phising and scams since we are not talking about that matter here. What's best to discuss is on how those newbies can make their investment plan to succeed especially on the methods they should use since there's really a lot of information to learn here.

What those people need to know that short term investment bring more higher risk to them than investing on bitcoin for long term that's why they should focus on things that can actually give them high chance to earn. And in process they should consider to learn certain flaws that can affect their investment decision so that they could earn success and they will not get easily bother by anything that might happen in future. Its interesting to see that now there's a lot of people is engaging with this hodl discussions since we can learn a lot of knowledge coming from multiple source that can help us became more better investor.

[Btcdeybodi]

Investing in Bitcoin has gone beyond answering the question when to invest or accumulate, the logic has been that invest when the money is readily available, any time you accumulate is good if the intention is to hold, with dca strategy you will have no business considering when to accumulate as you will be making purchases on regular intervals irrespective of the price point either weekly or monthly, you don't need much of this wisdom or knowledge to accumulate Bitcoin, figure out the level of your disposable and get the fucking started.

Most beginners do feel that it is already late to invest in Bitcoin now since the price has gotten so huge but most of the things that causes fear in these set of people is just lack of understanding to know how the market works and they make too much assumptions all the time without making research to be able to know the right strategy to follow for them to become successful like others that have hodl for a long time now, you can't just be making exaggeration without making plans on how to start your investment.
                  Bitcoin is a digital asset that has gone above mere speculation so why making speculations, mapping out plans on how to go about your investment will help you to project your investment to a good extent. Unfortunately, some beginners have not even been able to understand that even if Bitcoin decreases that the amount of Bitcoin the bought will remain the same as it is but as the price increases the value also also increases. It is always difficult to start up an investment but as soon as you are able to conquer fear and anxiety and make a solid step to invest and as you have invested and be applying different strategies at every point of your investment in Bitcoin that is how your understanding expands more on how your investments can appreciate as time goes on.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

What about those people that has full understanding about there finance and also has a discretionary income. the knowledge of Bitcoin is different from that of finance, you can be a beginner (newbie) but have all knowledge about financial management.
So if such person's are going into Bitcoin investment all they need to know is how to invest and how Bitcoin works.
I agree with you and I believe having knowledge of self custody is very important and yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin you are very correct.

A lot of people has good knowledge of financial strength and management and also good knowledge in Bitcoin and all they need is a good strategy on how to start and I believe too much in strategy will make beginners confused in carrying out their investment except they are very much articulate.

I think that frequently my main points have been that the more that you know the more aggressive you can be in your bitcoin accumulation, yet in the end, each person has to figure out the finer details for themselves in terms of how aggressive that they might want to be and how to employ the various BTC accumulation strategies (of DCA, lump sum and/or buying on dip), and they also should be figuring out their investment timeline, and other various personal factors, but the mere fact that they still have things that they are figuring out should not stop them from getting started, but they might still have to tailor the level of their aggressiveness in accordance with how solid they feel in regards to each of their 9 factors and/or any other considerations that they might feel that they need to take into account.

[GeorgeJohn]

Having a good knowledge when it comes to Bitcoin accumulation is actually good and nice . But  not accumulating due to the urge acquiring more knowledge is not actually nice , for instance most of us started our Bitcoin accumulating and holding while learning, and the funny thing is that we are still learning. So what am saying is that we don't have to wait till we have gotten some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before thinking of investing and all that. But one can just start accumulating without having the knowledge on how Bitcoin work and what's all about , and how to purchase and secure it , that's where having the basic knowledge first comes In .

And I believe that they are alot of folks here with that same mindset of wanting to gather some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before starting their Bitcoin investment journey, and most of them will only endup regretting not starting their accummulation and holding on time , Because the right thing to do is as one is accumulating more Bitcoin, as same time he or she should focus on learning too.

Things you don't need to overlook before going to bitcoin investment is have acquired the knowledge first, when you are curious to accumulate bitcoin, theirs is possibilities that after accumulating your bitcoin the price might neither crash or not, that is while you need to have standard knowledge of bitcoin before you think of accumulating of bitcoin, some persons seems how skyrocket the price of bitcoin is moving now and that prompt them to think that investing in Bitcoin is the right option...bitcoin investment is not the way someone can get rich and when you are investing In Bitcoin you have to calm down and study well, many people come up with bad idea in bitcoin due lost they experience after been lose in bitcoin investment neither short-term or long-term investment.

The question every beginner must ask themselves if they really want observe before investing is I'm I in for the long-term or short term investment.... I wouldn't say more than that to avoid repetition

it should be a task to beginners to ask such questions, because for me I know quite well that you want to become successful you most ask others the pathway that makes them to be successful, so I know very well that what makes people to join bitcoin investment without making research is out of desperation, while is good to advantages and the disadvantages of something you wants to venture into it before you enroll yourself.

[Smilevictorobinna]

[edited out]

What about those people that has full understanding about there finance and also has a discretionary income. the knowledge of Bitcoin is different from that of finance, you can be a beginner (newbie) but have all knowledge about financial management.
So if such person's are going into Bitcoin investment all they need to know is how to invest and how Bitcoin works.
I agree with you and I believe having knowledge of self custody is very important and yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin you are very correct.

A lot of people has good knowledge of financial strength and management and also good knowledge in Bitcoin and all they need is a good strategy on how to start and I believe too much in strategy will make beginners confused in carrying out their investment except they are very much articulate.

I think that frequently my main points have been that the more that you know the more aggressive you can be in your bitcoin accumulation, yet in the end, each person has to figure out the finer details for themselves in terms of how aggressive that they might want to be and how to employ the various BTC accumulation strategies (of DCA, lump sum and/or buying on dip), and they also should be figuring out their investment timeline, and other various personal factors, but the mere fact that they still have things that they are figuring out should not stop them from getting started, but they might still have to tailor the level of their aggressiveness in accordance with how solid they feel in regards to each of their 9 factors and/or any other considerations that they might feel that they need to take into account.

Ok I think I gree with you since you said one can still get started when try to figure out one's personal factor. Is very important to figure out one's personal factor and that is the first thing anyone trying to go into Bitcoin investment should know but one can still get started while having all the knowledge.
And I believe there are a lot of things a beginner should know about investing on Bitcoin but one should know the basic things in other to invest, after investing you can still go on in acquiring all knowledge about Bitcoin.
The major thing is for you to know The basics first so you can invest no need of waiting for years in trying to know everything about Bitcoin and when you have started you will now no more about Bitcoin as time goes on.

[bestcoins1]

The question every beginner must ask themselves if they really want observe before investing is I'm I in for the long-term or short term investment.... I wouldn't say more than that to avoid repetition

Beginners who haven't invested in anything but have a great desire to do so, of course questions like that are very natural for them. But I think there is something more natural for other people to ask and it would also be quite good if every beginner wanted to do it, that is when the beginner has time to learn to know good investment assets and then understand how to invest well and which assets they will put their money into as investment capital. Because if they can ask themselves and can listen to what other people are asking, of course what they have to do is move to make it happen, such as trying to buy Bitcoin on the Dip and holding it (if they already know about Bitcoin).

[Ishicryptic]

Having a good knowledge when it comes to Bitcoin accumulation is actually good and nice . But  not accumulating due to the urge acquiring more knowledge is not actually nice , for instance most of us started our Bitcoin accumulating and holding while learning, and the funny thing is that we are still learning. So what am saying is that we don't have to wait till we have gotten some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before thinking of investing and all that. But one can just start accumulating without having the knowledge on how Bitcoin work and what's all about , and how to purchase and secure it , that's where having the basic knowledge first comes In .

And I believe that they are alot of folks here with that same mindset of wanting to gather some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before starting their Bitcoin investment journey, and most of them will only endup regretting not starting their accummulation and holding on time , Because the right thing to do is as one is accumulating more Bitcoin, as same time he or she should focus on learning too.

Things you don't need to overlook before going to bitcoin investment is have acquired the knowledge first, when you are curious to accumulate bitcoin, theirs is possibilities that after accumulating your bitcoin the price might neither crash or not, that is while you need to have standard knowledge of bitcoin before you think of accumulating of bitcoin, some persons seems how skyrocket the price of bitcoin is moving now and that prompt them to think that investing in Bitcoin is the right option...bitcoin investment is not the way someone can get rich and when you are investing In Bitcoin you have to calm down and study well, many people come up with bad idea in bitcoin due lost they experience after been lose in bitcoin investment neither short-term or long-term investment.

The question every beginner must ask themselves if they really want observe before investing is I'm I in for the long-term or short term investment.... I wouldn't say more than that to avoid repetition

it should be a task to beginners to ask such questions, because for me I know quite well that you want to become successful you most ask others the pathway that makes them to be successful, so I know very well that what makes people to join bitcoin investment without making research is out of desperation, while is good to advantages and the disadvantages of something you wants to venture into it before you enroll yourself.

Gaining knowledge before going into any investment is very important, without knowing the basics of an investment before going into it can amount to failure, also taking hasty decisions before involving in any monetary ventures is a danger and can make the person to lose their investment funds. Before going into Bitcoin investment, it is important to understand how it works, knowing the basics like the seasons, bull run and bear run, what can trigger price to pump and dump, what halving means and how to protect your wallet from hacks, also how to secure your seed phrase, this basic knowledge will prepare a newbie investor on how Bitcoin works.

I like the phrase "buy the dip and hodl" it will direct newbies and experienced investors on the best time to buy Bitcoin, so that the person will not wait till another halving, to see a new ATH price, before they can make profit, buy during bear run and sale during bull run. So the best time to buy is when price dips, and sale when price surges, also the best option is to do DCA method, keep buying irrespective of short term pump and dump, then sale in the bull run or keep hodling.

[Sim_card]

Knowing basics like the seasons, bull run and bear run, what can trigger price to pump and dump, what halving means

A new beginner that wants to start his bitcoin investment as a no coiner does not need to know what triggers the price of bitcoin to pump or dump because it is impossible for anyone to know what will happen in the future as different scenarios and government policies/regulation and unforeseen circumstances can play out tomorrow that will affect the price of bitcoin to pump/dump. This is why that is useless. Also knowing about bitcoin season can be learnt as long side as investing. A new investor should start investing immediately, he has the money to do so, this will enable him accumulate more bitcoin and at the same time acquiring bitcoin knowledge. This is because he is investing for a long term in which he has all the time to learn more about what he is putting his money into, and he will not be faced with any challenge of running at loss because he will not be selling but only buying. What he needs to know is how much he needs to use to DCA constantly every week or month from his spare cash after he must have taken care of all his needs and expenses monthly.

The reason of investing is to grow that invest and build it up to a level that they investment will start taking care of you, and that cannot be achieved immediately, it will depend on when you started the investment. This is why delay is dangerous, and acquiring unnecessary knowledge as a hodler who is on a long term goal will not help you reach your bitcoin target quick.

So the best time to buy is when price dips, and sale when price surges,

A new beginner on his bitcoin investment journey does not have any best time to buy, because he is a no coiner or low coiner, he must keep buying regular consistent and persistent in order for him to be able to grow his bitcoin stash to the maintenance level overtime. It is investors who are in their maintenance stage or have almost reached their maintenance stage that buying at the dip is the best for them, because even if they DCA with little amount regularly, it will have no significance increase on their bitcoin stash. Remember that it is hard to know when the dip will come.

So the best time to buy is when price dips, and sale when price surges

Why are you planning to sell due to little surge in price or are you not planning to hodli for long term, because it is only when you hodli for long term that your portfolio will generate a good profit due to the compounding effect of your bitcoin portfolio. Investors that sell too quick ends up in regrets and lamentations because you might not be able to buy those bitcoin that you have sold at the same price in which you bought them 4 years ago.

[Troytech]

Having a good knowledge when it comes to Bitcoin accumulation is actually good and nice . But  not accumulating due to the urge acquiring more knowledge is not actually nice , for instance most of us started our Bitcoin accumulating and holding while learning, and the funny thing is that we are still learning. So what am saying is that we don't have to wait till we have gotten some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before thinking of investing and all that. But one can just start accumulating without having the knowledge on how Bitcoin work and what's all about , and how to purchase and secure it , that's where having the basic knowledge first comes In .

And I believe that they are alot of folks here with that same mindset of wanting to gather some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before starting their Bitcoin investment journey, and most of them will only endup regretting not starting their accummulation and holding on time , Because the right thing to do is as one is accumulating more Bitcoin, as same time he or she should focus on learning too.

Things you don't need to overlook before going to bitcoin investment is have acquired the knowledge first, when you are curious to accumulate bitcoin, theirs is possibilities that after accumulating your bitcoin the price might neither crash or not, that is while you need to have standard knowledge of bitcoin before you think of accumulating of bitcoin, some persons seems how skyrocket the price of bitcoin is moving now and that prompt them to think that investing in Bitcoin is the right option...bitcoin investment is not the way someone can get rich and when you are investing In Bitcoin you have to calm down and study well, many people come up with bad idea in bitcoin due lost they experience after been lose in bitcoin investment neither short-term or long-term investment.

Getting a standard knowledge of bitcoin isn't something a newbie can cover in a week or two this could take months or even longer before he we would understand more about himself like cashflow management, risk tolerance and his investment timeline, all this are decisions that could take some time to figure out, waiting is a very wrong idea especially when you already know how to buy bitcoin and where to store it, this are the basic knowledge that I consider important for a newbie the rest can be figured out in the process of buying bitcoin, yes some newbies can tend to be very aggressive with regards to the price of bitcoin which I don't really support cause aggressiveness without knowledge of yourself can cause you to sell very early than expected, so a better advice like what Jay had said earlier on would be for them to get started even if it's a very little buying purchase of 10$ weekly and consistently while the figure out themselves properly.

[arwin100]

Having a good knowledge when it comes to Bitcoin accumulation is actually good and nice . But  not accumulating due to the urge acquiring more knowledge is not actually nice , for instance most of us started our Bitcoin accumulating and holding while learning, and the funny thing is that we are still learning. So what am saying is that we don't have to wait till we have gotten some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before thinking of investing and all that. But one can just start accumulating without having the knowledge on how Bitcoin work and what's all about , and how to purchase and secure it , that's where having the basic knowledge first comes In .

And I believe that they are alot of folks here with that same mindset of wanting to gather some deep knowledge about Bitcoin before starting their Bitcoin investment journey, and most of them will only endup regretting not starting their accummulation and holding on time , Because the right thing to do is as one is accumulating more Bitcoin, as same time he or she should focus on learning too.

Things you don't need to overlook before going to bitcoin investment is have acquired the knowledge first, when you are curious to accumulate bitcoin, theirs is possibilities that after accumulating your bitcoin the price might neither crash or not, that is while you need to have standard knowledge of bitcoin before you think of accumulating of bitcoin, some persons seems how skyrocket the price of bitcoin is moving now and that prompt them to think that investing in Bitcoin is the right option...bitcoin investment is not the way someone can get rich and when you are investing In Bitcoin you have to calm down and study well, many people come up with bad idea in bitcoin due lost they experience after been lose in bitcoin investment neither short-term or long-term investment.

What's really crazy with other investor especially to those new in the industry is they only know the word hodl if they see bitcoin going into bull run condition but once everything is in bad condition like a bearish market condition will occur they easily fade out and think about not having bitcoin since they fear to lose there money.

That's why its important to learn a lot of things before taking a decision to push what they like since there are lots of challenges will happen and they need to sort that so they will not do a bad decision that could potentially cost them a lot of money.
Although learning a lot and strengthen up our emotion can't be learn in short time but once we are consistent learning all those need to consider then for sure than we could provably became more better investor that can decide so well whatever the market is currently situation going on the market.  Also for sure with great knowledge they have they always think about going for long term and short term investment is just a bad idea to take for them.

[Stablexcoin]

[edited out]

What about those people that has full understanding about there finance and also has a discretionary income. the knowledge of Bitcoin is different from that of finance, you can be a beginner (newbie) but have all knowledge about financial management.
So if such person's are going into Bitcoin investment all they need to know is how to invest and how Bitcoin works.
I agree with you and I believe having knowledge of self custody is very important and yet knowledge of self-custody is not a prerequisite in terms of getting into bitcoin you are very correct.

A lot of people has good knowledge of financial strength and management and also good knowledge in Bitcoin and all they need is a good strategy on how to start and I believe too much in strategy will make beginners confused in carrying out their investment except they are very much articulate.

I think that frequently my main points have been that the more that you know the more aggressive you can be in your bitcoin accumulation, yet in the end, each person has to figure out the finer details for themselves in terms of how aggressive that they might want to be and how to employ the various BTC accumulation strategies (of DCA, lump sum and/or buying on dip), and they also should be figuring out their investment timeline, and other various personal factors, but the mere fact that they still have things that they are figuring out should not stop them from getting started, but they might still have to tailor the level of their aggressiveness in accordance with how solid they feel in regards to each of their 9 factors and/or any other considerations that they might feel that they need to take into account.

You're right here! Once we understand the various aspects and things to consider in investment. We can now start our investment with any of the strategies. Procrastination can be a very big factor and before we know time has gone far to meet the goal. Since there is no perfect time to buy Bitcoin there shouldn't be any procrastination because of the things they can figure out along the line. However, an investment timeline or should I say goal is something to have decided before starting an investment, this is because you accumulate towards achieving that goal, and the goal is what helps an investor to be committed to his investment. So, it's not something they have to figure along the investment line. It should be before they start an investment.