[ANN][0.8.6] Hirocoin - X11 - NGW - Secured Blockchain - Time Warp Limitation

[Enzwell]

Just move the decimal place over one (to the left).
10 to 1 "reverse stock split".
Totally psychological.
Doesn't really do a damn thing to the coin since the decimal places [edit: fractional-part/mantissa] on cryptos go so far out.
Affects *everyone*.
Doesn't screw over new adapters.
Reduces the insane number of printable (calculable?) coins.
[edit: And yes, that would reduce the block reward to 40.]

[equalizer]

At 115,200 HIRO produced daily we will require 0.1152 BTC to buy ALL HIRO produced that day. I don't think that is anywhere near too much and will not quickly destroy the value of the coin. At 5 HIRO a day you're suggesting that we'd produce 7,200 HIRO daily which would require 0.0072 BTC daily to buy. That's a bit extreme and definitely skews the distribution to anyone who holds/buys HIRO now.

We're at a point where extreme ideas should be considered especially if they address a known issue. To tempestb's point, investors like us (those who hold a whole lot of hirocoins) need a reason to hang onto our coins. In the absence of one, we're talking about millions of these coins being flooded into the market, in addition to the 115,200 HIRO produced per day from mining...what would that end up doing to the coin's value?

I've seen tempestb's buy walls across the exchanges, and it's pretty clear without these, the price of hiro would easily be in the 60-70 sat by now; possibly even lower as there have been days when buy pressure was severely lacking (his walls have actually brought on additional buyers).

How about a reward model that is broken up into phases with milestones attached to each? The first phase introduces a substantial scarcity of hirocoin. During this time, we give the coin a chance to recover, and if it hits a target we set as a community, that's a trigger to go into Phase 2 where the production of hirocoins is allowed to increase. Then phase 3 and so on. The rewards can remain dynamic per phase, but the swings are tighter and far lower at the start.

Below 115,200 HIRO would be extreme in my opinion, but I can bring it up to the rest of the team and get their thoughts. If we fail to create a mere $60 in buy orders to buy ALL HIRO produced daily I think we've failed. Even without the buy walls at 100 satoshi, we've had at least 0.5BTC in volume daily which is incredibly low, but enough to absorb 80 HIRO block rewards.

The reward model as of now is similar except it will be in place hopefully for the foreseeable future in order to provide price stabilization. But I get your point that you'd like to see a more scarce reward in order for the market to recover. I'll let Hiro know about these suggestions and see what he thinks.

Don't fall for it. They are likely exchange insiders and will dump, regardless of what the team decides.

The folks over at NOBL are currently under similar threat of "do or die" if the switch to PoS is not made.

LOL - come on, exchange insiders? That's flattering, but I've been buying Hirocoin since back in March and have continued to buy. I'm an integral part of the .5 BTC of daily hiro buys Omar is referring to. You could call me many things, even a fool for buying so many hiros these last 3 months, but don't call me a dumper. I still hold over 95% of my Hirocoins, both mined and purchased. I can't speak for anyone else, but dumping is for people who can't see the long view.

If by "they" you're referring to Tempestb and me, I only started chatting with him since about a week ago because I thought his idea about Hiro transactions becoming more transparent was a fantastic idea. Still do, and it still is. I hope hiro adopts this anti-anon strategy, and if/when this occurs, I look forward to helping the hiro team market the heck out of it. But for now and something far more urgent, the idea about choking the coin supply to let the coin gain some traction is just smart. People are free to equate 'smart' with 'manipulation,' but keep this in mind: even if hiro grew to 5x what it's trading now, selling the sheer volume of coins I have would greatly damage this coin. I'm not even sure there would be enough buy offers to sell my coins at break-even cost. I would imagine exchange insiders wouldn't care about small details like this, but I do.

I also don't buy BTC then dump it the moment it recovers from a low simply because I believe in the future of the coin itself. I'll have far greater strength with them than without them. This is my hope for hiro. At some point in the future, I hope my very large bag will provide me with choices, not a few hundred dollars over what I bought them for.

It's everyone's right to be suspicious of other people's intentions, but my intention is to have as many hiros as I do *and* have it be a stable, desirable, and a widely usable coin.

[tempestb]

First off, it's not do or die.  There isn't enough people interested in buying Hirocoin to support how many I've purchased even if they were 1 Satoshi each.  So what would I be gaining by dumping?  That's ridiculous.  I'm trying to SAVE THE COIN.  It was being threatened to get delisted from at least one Exchange due to low volume, and now I've increased that volume. 

Grow up...  You wouldn't have a coin here if it wasn't for people like me buying it.  I'm going to spend a few hundred more right now because my buy wall on MintPal has died from people selling coins for 100 Satoshi instead of holding them and hoping the coin goes up. 

Based on my walls alone, there are folks selling about as many Hiro Coins a day as they are being mined, or about half a million.  I'm the one eating most of that.

Of course I'm in this to make a profit, but I'm thinking long term.  I want Hiro to make a coin people want to use.  It does me no good to unload millions of coins on the market.  There isn't anyone buying them really.  A few arbitrage bots and maybe some speculators at the bottom.

Starting today I'm going to drop my buy-walls to 50 Satoshi.  Since no one else is buying above 100 Satoshi, I can't sustain the entire Hirocoin economy. (AKA Subsidizing the miners who get thousands of coins every few minutes) We'll see how many buyers there are above that line, or if that forces miners to hold their coins.  Probably not...

[coinlighter]

Current policy is the reason there is no demand.It scares away prospective investors, therefore the demand.The market is reflecting the current situation.
Rest assured, Hiro's price will not fall to zero.That's great isn't it?

[tempestb]

The way you raise value is through stability.  You can't have people dumping millions of coins.  Nobody will invest if their investment gets wiped out because one guy mining has earned millions in coins and can just dump them on the market and driving the value to 1 Satoshi a share.

So they are working on maybe tightening the supply.  So far we're still dealing with half a million coins dumped on the market every day.  I wouldn't invest in this coin if I was a normal investor.  Your investment gets diluted severely every single day.  You're either in it for the long haul, or you shouldn't invest.  Until this stops, this coin is headed straight to the grave.

The next thing that needs to be done is to introduce some feature that makes this coin compelling and unique.  I think going the opposite of anonymous is the way to go, but I'm game to other ideas.  I don't know how strong Hiro is as a coder either.  I don't even know if he's capable of introducing new features.  I like to think he is.  I tend to think that both buyers and sellers would embrace a coin that allowed the seller to be identifiable in an assured manner.  (I outlined my idea a few pages back)  This then creates a level of security that, as far as I know, no other coin has.  Everyone is going the anonymous way, maybe to become the next Silkroad provider, but real business where the REAL money is at, wants more transparency not less.  Start with the seller.  Let's make sure who we are sending coins to is who they say they are.  A unique wallet prefix identifier tied to the address is one way to do that.  But I'm game for other ideas.

[OmarGsPools]

The way you raise value is through stability.  You can't have people dumping millions of coins.  Nobody will invest if their investment gets wiped out because one guy mining has earned millions in coins and can just dump them on the market and driving the value to 1 Satoshi a share.

So they are working on maybe tightening the supply.  So far we're still dealing with half a million coins dumped on the market every day.  I wouldn't invest in this coin if I was a normal investor.  Your investment gets diluted severely every single day.  You're either in it for the long haul, or you shouldn't invest.  Until this stops, this coin is headed straight to the grave.

The next thing that needs to be done is to introduce some feature that makes this coin compelling and unique.  I think going the opposite of anonymous is the way to go, but I'm game to other ideas.  I don't know how strong Hiro is as a coder either.  I don't even know if he's capable of introducing new features.  I like to think he is.  I tend to think that both buyers and sellers would embrace a coin that allowed the seller to be identifiable in an assured manner.  (I outlined my idea a few pages back)  This then creates a level of security that, as far as I know, no other coin has.  Everyone is going the anonymous way, maybe to become the next Silkroad provider, but real business where the REAL money is at, wants more transparency not less.  Start with the seller.  Let's make sure who we are sending coins to is who they say they are.  A unique wallet prefix identifier tied to the address is one way to do that.  But I'm game for other ideas.

I've brought up the idea of having the block reward further reduced from 80 when in a recovery period and we believe 40 HIRO to a maximum of 400 HIRO could be effective at stabilizing the price.

An idea to go against anonymity is great as it would differentiate us from all of the other coins. I'll bring the idea to the team and see what they think. Thanks for the suggestion.

[tempestb]

That's great.  I'll take the 40.  Any idea of when that might happen though?  That will help prevent the massive dumping on the exchanges every day and give us investors a chance to absorb and grow the coin value.

And I'm glad the non-anonymous sounds like a good idea to you.  I really think it will cause the coin to stand out and actually be a very useful feature.

[equalizer]

The way you raise value is through stability.  You can't have people dumping millions of coins.  Nobody will invest if their investment gets wiped out because one guy mining has earned millions in coins and can just dump them on the market and driving the value to 1 Satoshi a share.

So they are working on maybe tightening the supply.  So far we're still dealing with half a million coins dumped on the market every day.  I wouldn't invest in this coin if I was a normal investor.  Your investment gets diluted severely every single day.  You're either in it for the long haul, or you shouldn't invest.  Until this stops, this coin is headed straight to the grave.

The next thing that needs to be done is to introduce some feature that makes this coin compelling and unique.  I think going the opposite of anonymous is the way to go, but I'm game to other ideas.  I don't know how strong Hiro is as a coder either.  I don't even know if he's capable of introducing new features.  I like to think he is.  I tend to think that both buyers and sellers would embrace a coin that allowed the seller to be identifiable in an assured manner.  (I outlined my idea a few pages back)  This then creates a level of security that, as far as I know, no other coin has.  Everyone is going the anonymous way, maybe to become the next Silkroad provider, but real business where the REAL money is at, wants more transparency not less.  Start with the seller.  Let's make sure who we are sending coins to is who they say they are.  A unique wallet prefix identifier tied to the address is one way to do that.  But I'm game for other ideas.

I've brought up the idea of having the block reward further reduced from 80 when in a recovery period and we believe 40 HIRO to a maximum of 400 HIRO could be effective at stabilizing the price.

An idea to go against anonymity is great as it would differentiate us from all of the other coins. I'll bring the idea to the team and see what they think. Thanks for the suggestion.

Wholeheartedly agree. Going anti-anon is necessary for mainstream adoption. And it also makes a hell of a story. Implementing a feature like this is not only highly marketable, it also addresses a known problem with cryptocurrency (i.e. it's not a fad that'll go away anytime soon). It's good for merchants, investors, and users who simply want to use a coin for everyday needs. And that's the larger race we're in.

[OmarGsPools]

Not too sure on an exact date, but it is Hiro's top priority right now. Progress has been made on implementing the idea into code so I can only predict it should be live in the very near future.

[fedmahnkassad]

Not too sure on an exact date, but it is Hiro's top priority right now. Progress has been made on implementing the idea into code so I can only predict it should be live in the very near future.

Hiro is the man. Keep up the good work!

[Scriptiee]

The ideas on the last few pages are quite silly in my opinion, lowering the block reward when the net hash is low will most probably kill the coin. I really done see how that is suppose to help.

Going against anonymity? I dont even know how to respond to that ...

Good luck with your next project

[Enzwell]

Going against anonymity? I dont even know how to respond to that ...

It's a great idea! Each transaction you make gets posted on Facebook and Twitter. Makes perfect sense!

[tempestb]

The ideas on the last few pages are quite silly in my opinion, lowering the block reward when the net hash is low will most probably kill the coin. I really done see how that is suppose to help.

Going against anonymity? I dont even know how to respond to that ...

Good luck with your next project

Most transactions you make today outside of cash are not anonymous.  However, the current idea being floated is not to divulge the identity of the payer, but the payee.  This helps to reduce fraud.  Example, you are going to pay for a new miner from Lightning Asic.  If you do a web search for a Dragon Miner, you'll find a bogus website near the top of the results offering one for sale.  If you buy it, you'll lose your money.  How do you know which company is legit?   You can post here on Bitcointalk and ask people that you don't know.  There are companies sending people PM's on here pretending to be representatives of various company's customer service.  They take the orders and steal people's coin.

Nobody in real life really gives total strangers money.  Only in this weird Bitcoin economy do we have that going on.  Even with cash, you buy stuff from a known store.  You don't generally put a bunch of cash in a box, and send it to some guy named Bruce in Amsterdam because he says he has something you need.  Because you know Bruce will rip you off.

The idea here is that a company, such as Lightning, would have an optional prefix identifier added to their wallet address.   This would be unique and added to their wallet only.   It might look like this - "LightningAsic-1J2SKCZBZ42HksEXXabstLUye9odvo2yHi"

Only they can use LightningAsic so you, as the buyer, know that this is the right company that you are sending coins to.  Fraud issue averted.

Your personal transaction is still just random, could come from an empty wallet with no identifier.  So nobody knows what you are buying, etc. 

This is no different than how it works now, except that the wallet id is identifiable.  The wallet id is always tossed out there on forums, message footers, etc.  It's known anyway.  So this is nothing radical or weird.  It's just a way to distinguish those addresses that people are putting out there with some kind of human-readable. 

I think if you consider it, it's a good idea.



As for the restriction on the mining reward.  The coin is already dying because too many coins are being mined.  Miners will mine the coin when the coin is profitable.  It doesn't matter if it's 400 coins a minute, or 40 coins a minute.  If the coin is profitable, they will mine it.    If the current economy of the coin is no longer diluted from the half a million coins being added every day, then investment in the coin will cause the value of the coin to rise.  More coins will then be rewarded to miners, and miners will make more money from the value increasing.

You can argue that by restricting it, more miners will drop out.  But the coin is rapidly approaching worthless status and about to be delisted on exchanges due to low volume.  So the current system isn't working for anyone except the guys who are mining and dumping every day.  The coin's economy needs to be centered around offering features that people need and want to use.  Not what miners want.  Miners will mine the coin if the coin is profitable to mine.  Investors will invest in the coin if they know their investment isn't getting rapidly dilluted.  So a reduction in coins when the difficulty is really low is a good idea.

Besides, 40 coins PER MINUTE is still a lot of coins in comparison to Bitcoin's 25 coins per TEN MINUTES.   So we know that the amount of coins being mined is hardly so restrictive that it will impact the coin's future.  Rather, it might hurt some current miners ability to mine and dump right now.  But I think given time to absorb the existing coins that are out there, and with follow-ups from Hiro and company to produce new features, we should see the value start to climb.  And then the whiny miners will come back and mine it.  Probably still be whiny, but they'll mine it.

And if not, it isn't like the coin was headed to the grave anyway.  We're trying something new and it could turn out to be a great thing. 

Join the conversation and be constructive and help the coin grow. 

[OmarGsPools]

Well said tempestb. Regarding the address identifiers, I've brought it up to Hiro and this was his response.

"To prove that you own an address you would sign something using your private key for that address. It can then be unencrypted using the public key (address) which everyone can see. There is a sign and verify feature already in the wallets for those who want proof that someone owns an address."

So we may already have that feature. To be honest I didn't even know of it, but will look into it now.

[tempestb]

He's confused.

If I show you a wallet id such as this...

1J2SKCZBZ42HksEXXabstLUye9odvo2yHi

How do you know who's wallet that is?

If the guy who has that ID says, "Here, I'll sign a message with this ID in it."  and does so.  And then you take that message and check it.  You'll find that, yes indeed, this guy owns that address.

Congratulations!  The fraudster signed the message with that address.  And you just sent money to the fraudster.


You see why that doesn't work?


By creating a unique identifier tied to the wallet, then a company like Bitmain can OWN the Bitmain prefix that is only tied to their wallet.  Nobody else can use it.  You store the wallet-id and the name in the block chain.  Nobody else can register that name.  It's tied to one single wallet.   There can be any number of additional id's, but the wallet itself is tied to one name.  Bitmain.



Now, new scenario as an example...

Fraudster says, "I'm from Bitmain and I understand you are having trouble with order Antminer S4.  I would like to apologize for our late response but we've been very busy.  In order to help speed the process, if you agree to send 500,000 HiroCoin to us at 1J2SKCZBZ42HksEXXabstLUye9odvo2yHi we'll send you two Antminer S4 for the price of one.  But keep this quiet, we don't want to offer this deal to everyone."

Then the smart buyer will say, "When I send the HiroCoin to BITMAIN-1J2SKCZBZ42HksEXXabstLUye9odvo2yHi it said the address doesn't exist." 

Fraudster says, "Right, well we changed wallets so we need you to send your money to 1J2SKCZBZ42HksEXXabstLUye9odvo2yHi without the BITMAIN."

And the smart buyer says, "Nope, nice try Fraudster...  You're not getting my money."




This concept makes a lot of sense, and is easy for people to understand.  You don't have to do it exactly like I'm suggesting.  You could maybe register a name to an address.  So that "BITMAIN" becomes "1J2SKCZBZ42HksEXXabstLUye9odvo2yHi" for instance.  And there is translation in the code to manage this matching and unique naming.  That might even be a better solution really.  So people are sending money to known full names and not scrambled addresses of bullsh*t.


Think about writing checks.  When you write a check to someone, you write it out to their name.  But really, that name is just a filter.  The check has a code number on the button, and the person with the check deposits it into their own number.  That's because human beings like words and names.  They don't read numbers like machines.


Creating the same effect within the coin enables a friendly way to do business and enables that to create trust between parties.


I'm not sure Hiro is up to the task or can really alter the code in a way that this would work.  Again, I don't know what the guy's experience level is.  What I'm saying isn't revolutionary or new, but nobody appears to be doing it because there is a large disconnect between programmer-miner mentality and consumer-investor mentality.   

Think of it another way...  How do you get your Grandmother to use HiroCoin?   Are you going to tell her that this ->  1J2SKCZBZ42HksEXXabstLUye9odvo2yHi  is her wallet address?   She's going to ask you to leave her house and not take the apple pie with you because you hurt her head.   But if you said, "Grandmother, your wallet is "Grandmother_Omar" and you can tell people that so they can send you money."  She'll smile, pour you a glass of milk and hand you a piece of pie.


Think about Apple.  They took what were crappy phones and revolutionized the industry by making them easier to use.  Not more difficult.   Nintendo released a game system (The Wii) that the general public bought millions upon millions of them because they were simple for grandmothers to play. 


The "secret" to mass market adoption of any technology is to make it easy to use.   Maybe this isn't the coin for that.  But someone is going to figure it out, and they are going to change the game. 

[tempestb]

Example...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=656461.msg7552456#msg7552456

[coins101]

honestly, I think the reason for the price continuing to go down is uncertainty.  Although I'm positive this is going to work and work well, not everyone has been with us long and they don't feel they know the developers and their abilities.  Also, they don't know the "quiet times" when Evan et al are with their noses to the keyboard.  They don't come here and talk to us much.  Not until they have something to say.  So people get cold feet, and don't know what's happening because the last post was 2 days ago.  Other coins, I imagine, have developers that chat a lot.  But can you imagine keeping your concentration on a complex project and coming here or even a friendlier place like darkcointalk, and chatting?  LOL

Even in the very beginning, you can see Evan's terse replies....and forgetfulness.  His mind was somewhere else (the code) and he just went with what he had going.

Anyway, I really couldn't imagine the price would fall again like the last 2 days, LOL.  That's why I don't trade 

I think we need some PR for the quiet times... =P so we will keep the people interested...
we all know that the technology for darkcoin is good, but the PR isn't that great... need to improve this..

I'm going rouge, off the DRK plan of action: lets do a short piece for master nodes and send it to stan higgins at coindesk as a follow-up to the recent piece on DRK

+1 second that

I think we should ask the Hirocoin dev for some input, I liked his checkpoint contribution

up for it?

[equalizer]

Well said tempestb. Regarding the address identifiers, I've brought it up to Hiro and this was his response.

"To prove that you own an address you would sign something using your private key for that address. It can then be unencrypted using the public key (address) which everyone can see. There is a sign and verify feature already in the wallets for those who want proof that someone owns an address."

So we may already have that feature. To be honest I didn't even know of it, but will look into it now.

Can the team give us an update on how much progress has been made since we last heard from you guys?

[OmarGsPools]

I'm still waiting to hear from Hiro on how far he's got with the dynamic block reward. The wallet UI is half finished also.

I'm holding off on the whitepaper until the dynamic block reward is implemented as it's a key feature I'd like to go over in detail in the whitepaper.

[poplolnman]

I'm still waiting to hear from Hiro on how far he's got with the dynamic block reward. The wallet UI is half finished also.

I'm holding off on the whitepaper until the dynamic block reward is implemented as it's a key feature I'd like to go over in detail in the whitepaper.

will you be finishing up hiropool.org?