[Cult of Lauda] An historic peace: Rome’s treaty with Carthage

[Lauda]

After a long debate with myself while watching for evidence of Quickseller's motives, I have tentatively concluded that he is sincere in his current intentions.

Therefore, I have decided to follow the spirit of theymoses advice:

Exercise a lot of forgiveness.

In contrast to the accusations of people who just like to criticize me in every conceivable way, I am interested in cooperating with anybody who genuinely wants to contribute to the community. I believe that Quickseller is a highly intelligent individual which is precisely why I previously saw him as very dangerous (in comparison to just some dumb troll, of which there are many). If he put behind him all the things for which I condemned him, then I want to offer him peace, maybe even friendship, so we can each better work to make this forum a better place - despite any differences of opinion that I will gladly agree to disagree about.
I most of all credit Quickseller for making the first move here, which was a rather very big move. I did not ask for his recent apology; and frankly, I never expected to see that day come within my lifetime. It was also a thing I think he could not have done with ulterior motives: He had no way to predict in advance if I would accept what he said, or reject it with the same harshness I showed when fighting him for years. Furthermore, I have noticed other behavioral traits consistent with this belief (his apology is only what got my attention and woken up my thought process).

Those who know me, also know that I am always vigilant; and out of various criticisms, there's one thing that I have never been accused of: being soft. If there is any repeat of the past mistakes and/or harmful behavior, I do not need to say here what my reaction will be. But I do not expect that to happen! I will support Quickseller's genuine effort toward the long task of rebuilding his reputation; and I earnestly hope to someday see him earn the status of a highly respected member of the forum.
Therefore, I have done the following 2 actions:
1) I have removed any negative ratings on Quickseller, and left a neutral rating referencing this thread.
2) I have withdrawn support for any flags that have been created against his account.
I do not expect individuals to follow me in this peace offering at this time, but I ask and hope that people will be more open towards giving forgiveness where forgiveness is earned - especially given that his arguably biggest enemy (The Catbat Witch) has forgiven him and hereby offers him an olive branch.

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[nullius]

I am probably the most unforgiving person on this forum; and I respect you all the more for this, Lauda.

It is indeed an historic forum moment; and as a practical matter, it opens the potential for much good in the future.  When I was a Newbie, someone I respect in the Development and Technology forum quietly advised me that Quickseller has some real skills.  (My contact did not praise him as a genius—just said, he knows his tech stuff.)  This has later influenced my own behaviour in an odd way, insofar as I have shuddered to imagine the time that Quickseller must have invested in all those old flamewar threads instead of building something positive for, foremost, himself.  What a waste.  It was a practical object lesson to me on the personal cost of perpetual flamewars, whether one is right or wrong.  Well, I am curious to see what Quickseller may choose to build on this forum going forward.

As for you Lauda—no, I doubt anyone will accuse you of “being soft”.  Per my own motto on the subject:  “The harshest judges need the wisest judgment.”


Rome never forgave Carthage:  Instead, they totally annihilated Carthage.  I take it that you are mulling an alternative history:  What if Rome and Carthage had made peace?  It is an interesting thought.

[Quickseller]

Thank you. I am out of merit and source merit, so I cannot merit your post at the moment.

I do promise to not repeat previous mistakes and to always do what I believe to be best for the community.

[Lauda]

I am probably the most unforgiving person on this forum; and I respect you all the more for this, Lauda.

Thank you!

Thank you. I am out of merit and source merit, so I cannot merit your post at the moment.

I do promise to not repeat previous mistakes and to always do what I believe to be best for the community.

Here, have some of those too!

[irfan_pak10]

-snip-

Thank you. I am out of merit and source merit, so I cannot merit your post at the moment.

I do promise to not repeat previous mistakes and to always do what I believe to be best for the community.

Here, have some of those too!

Being so generous here  That's the spirit required here these days.

[hacker1001101001]

One would not imagine how much time many of the user's around were waiting for this peace treaty. Have a nice honeymoon you both !

[nullius]

Thank you. I am out of merit and source merit, so I cannot merit your post at the moment.

I gave my very last smerit for this (having recently depleted my stockpile by merit-bombing all the awesome translations listed in my signature).  For me to see, “You have 0 sendable merit (sMerit) which you can send to other people.”, it is indeed an historic moment for the forum. ;-)

(Just saw before posting:  Whoops, no longer 0.)

I do promise to not repeat previous mistakes and to always do what I believe to be best for the community.

I look forward to seeing that!

[eddie13]

Bit cringy reading, not gonna lie..
Confusing, forgiving QS while attacking TS.. Hmmm...
Strange times..

Good luck QS..
Do you plan on removing all your reds on Lauda too?

[Quickseller]

Good luck QS..
Do you plan on removing all your reds on Lauda too?

Over the past days/weeks, I have locked various threads that may or may not have been petty fighting among various people. I posted that if someone has what I view to be a serious concern, I will allow it to be unlocked as long as I am confident the person isn’t trolling or causing drama. If someone posts in a thread I opened that is trying to troll or cause drama, it will be quickly locked. I also removed some people who I believe played a minor role in the "sting operation" from being named in the relevant thread title and OP.

I had not reviewed any old trust ratings, as I rarely use the trust system anymore (as far as I can tell, everyone is Trust: +0 / =0 / -0, except those I sent ratings to). I just reviewed my ratings to lauda, and revised them to a single neutral. If anyone else wishes for me to review a rating, they can PM me, and I will look at the rating.

[owlcatz]

Good luck QS..
Do you plan on removing all your reds on Lauda too?

Over the past days/weeks, I have locked various threads that may or may not have been petty fighting among various people. I posted that if someone has what I view to be a serious concern, I will allow it to be unlocked as long as I am confident the person isn’t trolling or causing drama. If someone posts in a thread I opened that is trying to troll or cause drama, it will be quickly locked. I also removed some people who I believe played a minor role in the "sting operation" from being named in the relevant thread title and OP.

I had not reviewed any old trust ratings, as I rarely use the trust system anymore (as far as I can tell, everyone is Trust: +0 / =0 / -0, except those I sent ratings to). I just reviewed my ratings to lauda, and revised them to a single neutral. If anyone else wishes for me to review a rating, they can PM me, and I will look at the rating.

QS - Thanks for that. I removed my negs as well and added a neutral . Hope you can do the same. I'm too old for this petty fighting bs TBH...

Edit - I also did the same for OG, fuck it....

Thank you.
owlcatz

[Quickseller]

Good luck QS..
Do you plan on removing all your reds on Lauda too?

Over the past days/weeks, I have locked various threads that may or may not have been petty fighting among various people. I posted that if someone has what I view to be a serious concern, I will allow it to be unlocked as long as I am confident the person isn’t trolling or causing drama. If someone posts in a thread I opened that is trying to troll or cause drama, it will be quickly locked. I also removed some people who I believe played a minor role in the "sting operation" from being named in the relevant thread title and OP.

I had not reviewed any old trust ratings, as I rarely use the trust system anymore (as far as I can tell, everyone is Trust: +0 / =0 / -0, except those I sent ratings to). I just reviewed my ratings to lauda, and revised them to a single neutral. If anyone else wishes for me to review a rating, they can PM me, and I will look at the rating.

QS - Thanks for that. I removed my negs as well and added a neutral . Hope you can do the same. I'm too old for this petty fighting bs TBH...

Edit - I also did the same for OG, fuck it....

Thank you.
owlcatz

This is done.  

I also confirmed that my PMs are able to receive messages. I may see your message more quickly than if you post here.

[hilariousetc]

Glad to see people moving on. Didn't think it would ever happen here. Peace in the middle east next?

Bit cringy reading, not gonna lie..
Confusing, forgiving QS while attacking TS.. Hmmm...
Strange times..

Good luck QS..
Do you plan on removing all your reds on Lauda too?

Cringy or not I think people should use this as some sort of seachange or amnesty for all the other petty beefs they're involved with, especially with users who aren't scammers and have just rubbed each other up the wrong way otherwise they'll just continue with tit for tat exchanges for ever and I think there are bigger things to worry about here.

[LoyceV]

As far as I know, Lauda is the first person to call me "Switzerland", and the name has grown on me. I've disliked the fights between veteran members on this forum for a long time, and I'd love to see it stop! I'm pretty sure most users can find something they like or dislike about almost anyone, and in most cases that only warrants neutral feedback.
I also never expected to see this happen, but I appreciate it. I think most of what caused QuickSeller's negative feedback happened "before my time here", and I've seen valuable posts from him since then.

Ever since I was a Newbie on Bitcointalk I've had the feeling anyone can easily get tagged for almost anything. That doesn't make the forum look very friendly from the outside. To grow, as a forum and as a coin, we need adoption from more users. It would be great if at least veteran users can get along a bit better

[The Cryptovator]

I appreciate your decision, although sometimes I would not agree with QS but as you mentioned, he is intelligent. As a human there would be mistakes (small or big), likely no one out of that. But if someone hardly try to change their behaviour then they would deserve second chances. There is still so many negative feedback's on QS profile, not sure if they reconsider it. I know everyone's judgements wouldn't same. However at least we can say that it has begun to implement theymos's thoughts.

Out of that topic, OP will you reconsider to visit jeremypwr feedback? I know he was involved with ponzi previously and that's why he got multiple negative feedback's. But lately he is doing well and out of such as ponzi schemes. Have noticed some DT's already reconsider with neutral feedback. Although I don't have personal relations with him but had worked with him long time on his campaign and he proved that he changed himself (IMO). So suddenly came on mind and expressed it. Hope you will revisit his profile.

[Lauda]

As far as I know, Lauda is the first person to call me "Switzerland", and the name has grown on me.

I did indeed!

Out of that topic, OP will you reconsider to visit jeremypwr feedback? I know he was involved with ponzi previously and that's why he got multiple negative feedback's. But lately he is doing well and out of such as ponzi schemes. Have noticed some DT's already reconsider with neutral feedback. Although I don't have personal relations with him but had worked with him long time on his campaign and he proved that he changed himself (IMO). So suddenly came on mind and expressed it. Hope you will revisit his profile.

Has he apologized anywhere or shown remorse or did he just stop doing the stuff he shouldn't be doing?

[The Cryptovator]

Has he apologized anywhere or shown remorse or did he just stop doing the stuff he shouldn't be doing?

I am not aware of about his/her apology. And yes, he has stop doing the stuff he should not be doing (I think its been long time). Most likely he have chosen the way to prove it practically instead of verbal apology. And I think so its more worthy than verbal apology.     

[Lauda]

Has he apologized anywhere or shown remorse or did he just stop doing the stuff he shouldn't be doing?

I am not aware of about his/her apology. And yes, he has stop doing the stuff he should not be doing (I think its been long time). Most likely he have chosen the way to prove it practically instead of verbal apology. And I think so its more worthy than verbal apology.    

Not being sorry for wrong actions in the past shows potentially compromised judgement (i.e. the user might still believe their actions were justified!), so your claim is actually backwards. An apology (not to me - to be clear) or being sorry/remorseful is the first step on changing your course towards the right path. I don't know about this user, I'll look when I have the time..

[allahabadi]

Waiting for Lauda to get over IT'S hangover  


(Edit)
P.S. I am not buying this spirit of forgiveness crap, maybe the OP wants to run some shit with an ex-scammer and wishes to take off the baggage or whatever.

[TECSHARE]

I see everyone is relishing patting each other on the back over how tolerant and reasonable you all are. How about the several of you here patting each other on your backs remove your frivolous ratings you left for me as well? I won't hold my breath though, because as far as I see it, this is just a way to cheaply get some social credit to continue on with your abusive behavior elsewhere and with others. Kind of like when Vod pretends he is sorry and goes away for a week then does all the same things he was doing before.

[truth or dare]

This appears to be a simple case of quickseller/primenumber accepting it must play ball with Laura and his gang. After Laura tagged PN, quickseller then started reversing the pill accusations, toning down the extortion case, and pretty much kissing ass. In return Laura removed the red from pn7 and owlcatz and others started following along.

Red trust bartering.

Both sides were convinced each other were not to be trusted as far as they could throw them only a few weeks back.

Just another clear example of how broken and fake the trust system is.

[suchmoon]

~

Let me guess, you can't post from your real account because you fear retribution from "Laura" and her gang? Or is it Quickseller's gang now...

[truth or dare]

~

Let me guess, you can't post from your real account because you fear retribution from "Laura" and her gang? Or is it Quickseller's gang now...

My advice to you would be stop attempting to appear smart or funny. This is a serious issue and is damaging the credibility of our forum.

This red trust bartering is unacceptable and paints a picture of corruption and taint on this forum. It suggests both sides are to be prevented from influencing default trust scores.

I will push my own support to remove the old tagging system. It serves no further purpose here.

[Quickseller]

I did not put any conditions on my apology to Lauda. Nor did I make demands after the fact. It was an acknowledgement that I was in the wrong.

I believe the purpose of this thread is to further the descalation of the trust system, which is something theymos has been pushing for a long time now. (In addition to the stated purpose of the thread).

If you currently have red trust, I would suggest you make any victims whole. If you don’t have any victims, you should make an effort to descalate the situation yourself. There is no reason to waste time on unnecessary drama, even if you believe to be in the right. If you have what you believe to be unfair red trust, I don’t think it would be abusive to ask for a temporary counter while you try to get your red trust removed.  

I can’t speak for Lauda, but I don’t believe he has any corrupt intentions in creating this thread.

[ibminer]

I do promise to not repeat previous mistakes and to always do what I believe to be best for the community.

Care to elaborate on what your "previous mistakes" were?  Are we just talking about your pill addiction accusation here??  I'd like to see some elaboration and explicit statements.

This appear to be a blanket statement which looks like word play to me. You don't even seem to call them your mistakes. For all I know, the "previous mistakes" you made were the ones that got you caught cheating people.

I'd like to see an explicit statement of what you have done in the past which was not best for the community. And then, maybe provide some examples on what you would "believe to be best for the community" moving forward?

[truth or dare]

I did not put any conditions on my apology to Lauda. Nor did I make demands after the fact. It was an acknowledgement that I was in the wrong.

I believe the purpose of this thread is to further the descalation of the trust system, which is something theymos has been pushing for a long time now. (In addition to the stated purpose of the thread).

If you currently have red trust, I would suggest you make any victims whole. If you don’t have any victims, you should make an effort to descalate the situation yourself. There is no reason to waste time on unnecessary drama, even if you believe to be in the right. If you have what you believe to be unfair red trust, I don’t think it would be abusive to ask for a temporary counter while you try to get your red trust removed.  

I can’t speak for Lauda, but I don’t believe he has any corrupt intentions in creating this thread.

Are you now claiming that Laura is trustworthy and their account should be red trust free?

This clearly appears to be an arrangement. Anything you claim to have said or did not say to Laura is not verifiable. It is foolish to believe that staying you did not make a deal proves that it didn't happen ?

[owlcatz]

I did not put any conditions on my apology to Lauda. Nor did I make demands after the fact. It was an acknowledgement that I was in the wrong.

I believe the purpose of this thread is to further the descalation of the trust system, which is something theymos has been pushing for a long time now. (In addition to the stated purpose of the thread).

If you currently have red trust, I would suggest you make any victims whole. If you don’t have any victims, you should make an effort to descalate the situation yourself. There is no reason to waste time on unnecessary drama, even if you believe to be in the right. If you have what you believe to be unfair red trust, I don’t think it would be abusive to ask for a temporary counter while you try to get your red trust removed.  

I can’t speak for Lauda, but I don’t believe he has any corrupt intentions in creating this thread.

I don't believe "Counters" work anymore, so QS - Can you please ask Ognasty to remove his frivolous negs on me? I removed my negs on him & sent him a peace PM stating I did not want to fight anymore and we should just try and be better to everyone..... And he just left his negs and never replied...

TECSHARE - I removed my neutral on you as well.

Thanks, peace out!

[truth or dare]

I did not put any conditions on my apology to Lauda. Nor did I make demands after the fact. It was an acknowledgement that I was in the wrong.

I believe the purpose of this thread is to further the descalation of the trust system, which is something theymos has been pushing for a long time now. (In addition to the stated purpose of the thread).

If you currently have red trust, I would suggest you make any victims whole. If you don’t have any victims, you should make an effort to descalate the situation yourself. There is no reason to waste time on unnecessary drama, even if you believe to be in the right. If you have what you believe to be unfair red trust, I don’t think it would be abusive to ask for a temporary counter while you try to get your red trust removed.  

I can’t speak for Lauda, but I don’t believe he has any corrupt intentions in creating this thread.

I don't believe "Counters" work anymore, so QS - Can you please ask Ognasty to remove his frivolous negs on me? I removed my negs on him & sent him a peace PM stating I did not want to fight anymore and we should just try and be better to everyone..... And he just left his negs and never replied...

TECSHARE - I removed my neutral on you as well.

Thanks, peace out!

This seems to be a clear case of red trust trading. You can not claim a member is dangerous and scammy, then remove their tags and request that they remove your tags which they have applied for reasons they have stood behind.

This behavior must be stopped. It is calling into question the entire forum's ethics.

[owlcatz]

This seems to be a clear case of red trust trading. You can not claim a member is dangerous and scammy, then remove their tags and request that they remove your tags which they have applied for reasons they have stood behind.

This behavior must be stopped. It is calling into question the entire forum's ethics.

No. It is not, you obviously know zero about the history of anything we are talking about, so fuck off.

[truth or dare]

This seems to be a clear case of red trust trading. You can not claim a member is dangerous and scammy, then remove their tags and request that they remove your tags which they have applied for reasons they have stood behind.

This behavior must be stopped. It is calling into question the entire forum's ethics.

No. It is not, you obviously know zero about the history of anything we are talking about, so fuck off.

I have to agree, (and not because the scammer gave me a neg rating and he's DT1), this is a ponzi. I even felt scammed when as a newbie I bought 5 minted seats. I think in a  year or two of having the coin, it maybe had 5 bucks of btc on it. I sold it once I realized this was all just a large (and quite old apparently) scam - This guy doesn't even believe in BTC, he counts everything in USD to make it seem all prettier.

Hey OG - what exactly do you need more time for? Newbies to fall for your scam and buy more seats so you can increase payouts? Oh wait, sounds like a ponzi

Also, you always mention that people should be doing more for the club. What exactly, other than running a miner or something? Anything?  

Finally, people are starting to see the truth here... FFS, it's about time!

There are many more posts of you claiming OG is a scammer and dangerous. Now these warnings to other members should be removed, and he should remove the warnings he had placed in good faith against you?

This trade bartering must be prevented.

It is also true that the removal of your name on quickseller's extortion thread has resulted in your red tags on his account being removed?

This is not how the trust system should be used.

Trust is not a bartering and tool for leverage and manipulation. Stop it.

[nullius]

I did not put any conditions on my apology to Lauda. Nor did I make demands after the fact. It was an acknowledgement that I was in the wrong.

Cherry-picked as something that ought be highlighted.

I can’t speak for Lauda, but I don’t believe he has any corrupt intentions in creating this thread.

I can’t speak for Lauda; but I would guess she saw what I did, i.e. that you could have no ulterior motive for reaching out with that apology, when you had...

...no assurance (or even rational expectation) that the reply will not be, “Too little, too late; go die in a fire”?  It actually takes some sincerity and courage to do that.

I, for one, believe you, at least on that point (and it’s an important one).  See below for further analysis.

Per my own motto on the subject:  “The harshest judges need the wisest judgment.”

An important point to note:  I argue the following from my own perspective.  As I recently observed elsewhere:

I must note the mutual distrust, in fairness to Quickseller:  I have obviously and unapologetically always been on Lauda’s side in that dispute; and I must recognize that Quickseller had his own perspective on that, even if I think his perspective was dead wrong.

The Quickseller case is unique:  Downfall from grace;—now, possible redemption?

Fact beats detective novels:  A respected member of the community rapidly became the forum’s most-distrusted virtual leper according to BPIP way back when.  The rigorous application of forensic authorship identification left people feeling deeply betrayed by someone who had been so trusted.  The individual in question then seemed as if he had embraced the lifetime devotion to revenge once sworn by the boy-Hannibal to his father:  “I will use fire and steel [and much forum badness that nullius will hereby avoid mentioning on a thread about peace] to arrest the destiny of Rome.”

I believe that Quickseller is a highly intelligent individual which is precisely why I previously saw him as very dangerous (in comparison to just some dumb troll, of which there are many).

O, he of Punic faith!

Quickseller would never have been so widely despised, if he had not previously been so widely admired.  From my limited knowledge of forum history, most of the few users who had a downfall of such magnitude had done bannable offenses, and were banned.  He hadn’t, and he wasn’t; and so he went on the warpath with few friends, and many enemies.  His Nemesis:  Lauda.

With this new détente, can Quickseller completely turn things around for a rise as spectacular as his downfall?  Time will tell:  In reputational matters, it is far easier to destroy than to rebuild.

I am curious to see what Quickseller may choose to build on this forum going forward.

In this circumstance, I don’t think it’s appropriate for anybody with a Lauda tag to suddenly come crawling out of the woodwork with vociferous complaints in the “peace” thread.  Those who do so, are only thus proving that they lack the sincerity that Quickseller has shown, as described below.  Indeed, it is trolling with flamebait; and moreover, it is offtopic:  What does any of this have to do with Quickseller, or with Lauda’s announcement of peace with Quickseller?

http://loyce.club/archive/posts/5379/53799851.html

Now only to get to the other dozen or so people you attack...

[...] I would not hold out much hope for any kind of peace with TECSHARE when he himself reacts to others’ newfound amicability by trying to start a fight.

~

~

[...]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2758665

Name:    truth or dare
Posts:    11
Activity:    11
Merit:    0
Position:    Newbie
Date Registered:    February 10, 2020, 07:08:35 PM
Last Active:    February 10, 2020, 11:13:20 PM

It is self-interested gratuitous bellicosity, and in boorish poor taste.


Care to elaborate?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=84866

February 10, 2020, 04:53:41 PM: 3 to allahabadi for Re: [Cult of Lauda] An historic peace: Rome’s treaty with Carthage

Merited by ibminer (3)

(Edit)
P.S. I am not buying this spirit of forgiveness crap, maybe the OP wants to run some shit with an ex-scammer and wishes to take off the baggage or whatever.

ibminer, that was meritorious?  The edit apparently occurred within the 10-minute (?) period in which the post does not show an edit time.

allahabadi, you evidently do not know Lauda very well.  I would suggest that bad people should try to corrupt her into such a conspiracy, because it is a probably a good way for them to earn red-tags.  Anyway, what “shit” would you expect for Lauda to “run”?  Selling pills, maybe?


The Quick Question

I will hereby present some evidence of the sincerity of Quickseller’s motives that I myself found significant, but I did not previously intend to ever discuss publicly.  For the record, I noticed similar things that I will not mention here:  I consider myself to be an astute observer, who sees what others do not; I do not want to write a guidebook for manipulative types to show me what I want to see.  (And to any impartial observer, the following will speak for itself as to my wisdom.)

The prelude to this thread really began here:

Topic: @PrimeNumber7 is an alt account of @Quickseller
Subject: I am not Quickseller.
Merited by nobody—but I presume, not unnoticed by Quickseller.

Sorry...

[—Unfounded accusations and fallacious argumentation against Lauda, which Quickseller retracted less than 48 hours after my quotation thereof, on 2020-01-21: “For this I was wrong and I apologize.”—]

On principle, I will not become Quickseller for the purpose of smacking down alleged Quickseller alts.

In the same thread, I also brought out other old “Quicksy” quotations for the purpose of telling others that they should avoid following that example.  As I am (or was) wont to do, I also ridiculed old Quickseller quotes in a few other places; but nowhere else did that so neatly intersect with the topic of a controversy which surely must have caught Quickseller’s attention.  And golly darn, what will I now do without “Quicksy” as a rhetorical foil representing all ills of the forum? ;-)

Whereupon, I observed, inter alia:

• Quickseller’s only plausible direct motive to suddenly retract a thread that hadn’t been bumped in eleven months, which nobody else was discussing, was that he sincerely realized it was wrong, and he was ashamed of it.
  
  It could not plausibly have been a trick, for a reason that I recently stated in another thread:
  
  

  ...suddenly, publicly, unilaterally apologize... for years-old threads, with no assurance (or even rational expectation) that the reply will not be, “Too little, too late; go die in a fire”?  It actually takes some sincerity and courage to do that.

  
  I would not accuse Quickseller of expecting for Lauda to treat him kindly.  And had Lauda wanted to reject his apology, then I myself would have backed her unequivocally on the principle that after all he did, she had the right to say, “too little, too late”.  It was an awfully big risk for Quickseller, with no sure reward but to assuage his own conscience.
• Although I agree with Lauda that PrimeNumber7’s identity is not proved either way, I think that Quickseller’s behaviour at the sidelines of that controversy is circumstantial evidence that they are probably two different individuals.
  
  Quickseller is proud.  He would not eat humble pie for Lauda just to protect his own work building an alt identity:  Instead, I expect that he would ruthlessly counterattack, as he has done many times before when others wrecked his deceits.  But if another person were being smeared with what I called “Quickseller-stench”, using what I identified somewhere as “Quicksold” twisted logic, then that may cause him to rethink some of his past behaviour—as he did, within 48 hours.
  
  (All the moreso if they may be separate people who know each other IRL—which would be none of anybody’s business, except insofar as it may explain the thin evidence connecting them.  However, I do think that Quickseller may have behaved similarly, if PrimeNumber7 were just an innocent stranger who got blindsided by being pinned with the Quickseller stigma.  In that case:  “WTF, now some poor random bloke is getting torched with an accusation of being me!?  I am sincerely sorry that I made similiarly wrong accusations in the past.”)
  
  This, in turn, is evidence that his motives are sincere:  The whole scenario invoked remorse in him, and he acted accordingly.
  
  (N.b. that analysis of PrimeNumber7’s identity is off-topic here; thus, I have confined the foregoing to a narrow discussion of what reasonable inferences may be drawn about Quickseller’s motives for apologizing to Lauda.)

Because this is an Internet forum (sigh), I must state explicitly that none of the foregoing evidence is conclusive, and all of it must be weighed carefully.  Together with my other observations, it is sufficient evidence for me to consider Quickseller to be prima facie sincere, absent contrary evidence.


The Acts of Quickseller

I'd like to see an explicit statement of what you have done in the past which was not best for the community. And then, maybe provide some examples on what you would "believe to be best for the community" moving forward?

Although your questions are reasonable, I respectfully suggest that this is a long-term question—and one of acts, not words.

For Quickseller to publicly browbeat himself in some ritual ceremonial apology is neither necessary nor sufficient; and for my part, I am more hopeful because I don’t see him making grand promises for the future.  Talk is cheap.  “Time will tell.”

I have noticed that quietly, without fanfare or pretense, Quickseller has recently retracted some of the dirt he slung out against a few other people—not only the pill thread against Lauda (which was only on everybody’s minds because I myself had recently been calling attention to it).  That is a good sign; I hope he that will do more of it, and do it right quickly.  I say “hope”, because the best thing about his apology to Lauda was that it was of his own initiative, unrequested and unexpected.  I would not give him so much credit, if he were to mouth a bunch of apologies just because someone told him to.

After having swum in a sea of red for years, how high a standard can Quickseller set for himself here?

To be clear, I am not trying to rehabilitate Quickseller:  That is up to him.  —Up to him, as he stepped up of his own initiative to amends with Lauda.  My position is actually a fair bit harder than yours, ibminer:  I simply step back and watch him do what he wants.  I will pass my judgment on the results of him acting of his own free will.  I hope that I will be suitably impressed.  It will not hurt my feelings if I am not.

I am probably the most unforgiving person on this forum;

Quickseller was never a simple troll.  (I always accused him of worse in the sense of “evil mastermind”; but that is beside the point.)

In the long term, for my part, I couldn’t care less either way about whatever vision Quickseller now sets forth for doing the “best for the community”.  I want to see it.  If he does good things, then I will applaud that!—if he does bad things, then I will urge others to treat him a thousandfold as harshly as they did before, with no third chances—and if he does nothing, then he will just fade to grey as a moderately interesting has-been who, at least, is no longer widely hated.  Meanwhile, I will treat him with a judicious neutrality.  Fair enough?

[Quickseller]

I did not put any conditions on my apology to Lauda. Nor did I make demands after the fact. It was an acknowledgement that I was in the wrong.

I believe the purpose of this thread is to further the descalation of the trust system, which is something theymos has been pushing for a long time now. (In addition to the stated purpose of the thread).

If you currently have red trust, I would suggest you make any victims whole. If you don’t have any victims, you should make an effort to descalate the situation yourself. There is no reason to waste time on unnecessary drama, even if you believe to be in the right. If you have what you believe to be unfair red trust, I don’t think it would be abusive to ask for a temporary counter while you try to get your red trust removed. 

I can’t speak for Lauda, but I don’t believe he has any corrupt intentions in creating this thread.

Are you now claiming that Laura is trustworthy and their account should be red trust free?

What lauda did was wrong, and was a display of poor judgement. With that being said, what happened, happened a long time ago, I have good reason to believe lauda is remorseful for what he did, and to my knowledge he has not made a similar mistake since. I have left the extortion thread unlocked, and it will remain that way provided no trolls bump it to stir up drama.

I have also witnessed lauda making an attempt to gain consensus on potentially controversial red trust before handing it out.

I would say there is enough observable evidence that it is appropriate for me to remove my tag on lauda. I don't think many people are unaware of lauda's past, and with or without red trust, anyone is free to decide if they want to trust him or not.   

This clearly appears to be an arrangement. Anything you claim to have said or did not say to Laura is not verifiable. It is foolish to believe that staying you did not make a deal proves that it didn't happen ?

The burden of proof is on the accuser. Feel free to present evidence my statement is incorrect.

QS - Can you please ask Ognasty to remove his frivolous negs on me? I removed my negs on him & sent him a peace PM stating I did not want to fight anymore and we should just try and be better to everyone.....

I sent him a PM with a recommendation that he remove his negative rating.

[Vod]

I posted that if someone has what I view to be a serious concern, I will allow it to be unlocked as long as I am confident the person isn’t trolling or causing drama.

Vod:  QS, what did you do with the 20btc TF sent you to sue me?
QS:  I returned it.  I want to be a good person.
Vod:  What is the trans ID?
QS:  You are a troll.  (relocks thread)

I don't believe "Counters" work anymore, so QS - Can you please ask Ognasty to remove his frivolous negs on me? I removed my negs on him & sent him a peace PM stating I did not want to fight anymore and we should just try and be better to everyone..... And he just left his negs and never replied...

TECSHARE - I removed my neutral on you as well.

OG won't return the money he stole from pirate that was for the community; QS won't return the money he made scamming.  Looks like this is the place to steal with no consequences.  

Forgive me if I wait to see where this is going...

[Quickseller]

I posted that if someone has what I view to be a serious concern, I will allow it to be unlocked as long as I am confident the person isn’t trolling or causing drama.

Vod:  QS, what did you do with the 20btc TF sent you to sue me?
QS:  I returned it.  I want to be a good person.
Vod:  What is the trans ID?
QS:  You are a troll.  (relocks thread)

I don't believe "Counters" work anymore, so QS - Can you please ask Ognasty to remove his frivolous negs on me? I removed my negs on him & sent him a peace PM stating I did not want to fight anymore and we should just try and be better to everyone..... And he just left his negs and never replied...

TECSHARE - I removed my neutral on you as well.

OG won't return the money he stole from pirate that was for the community; QS won't return the money he made scamming.  Looks like this is the place to steal with no consequences. 

Forgive me if I wait to see where this is going...

I think you know that to be untrue:

QS has returned the bitcoins back to me, as requested by me on mutually agreed upon terms. Here is the relevant portions of the email exchange.

[Vod]

QS has returned the bitcoins back to me, as requested by me on mutually agreed upon terms. Here is the relevant portions of the email exchange.

What is the trans ID?   Thanks for proving my point so quickly.  You will not change.

[eddie13]

This could turn out to be an incredible thread!!

All redtags on QS are now up for debate and we have so far Lauda, nullius, Quickseller, ifran, hacker, me, owly joining the trading game, hilarious mod, Switzerland, coolvader, TS, SM, a dangerous alt, ibminer, here comes Vod with some offence, and a request for the presence of OG..
All star playoffs..

I have also witnessed lauda making an attempt to gain consensus on potentially controversial red trust before handing it out.

Pretty surprising right? But like what? One time over the Yobit situation?
Too soon..

Lauda did remove their tag on me but I wouldn't put much weight on that example as it was a horrendously flawed decision to place it in the first place, therefore removal was just "Duh"..
Lauda&nullyis currently tagging TS for BS trust/dt system abuse but this is coming from the one that went batshit crazy abusing the new flag system..
One example of Lauda "making an attempt to gain consensus on potentially controversial red trust before handing it out" is about the same as a bigfoot sighting indeed, but how many of you believe bigfoot exists?

I do agree that these situations regarding Lauda's possible escrow and extortion follies are long in the past and unlikely to be repeated though..
I think that Lauda is recently coming around, and I am gaining respect for them back slowly, but it is happening to TS RIGHT NOW so their ain't much of a point saying it's unlikely to be repeated..  


My mind is going to blow if OGNasty removes all these tags..
How many of you that want your tags from OG removed stuck up for him against Vod's doxing him and reporting him to the IRS?
Who all merited that post again?

I was about to type "Atleast Vod hasn't started with the false/absolutely unproven and unlikely accusations yet" but here we have....

OG won't return the money he stole from pirate that was for the community

So there goes that already...

And here we have nulli... lol

Merited by ibminer (3)

(Edit)
P.S. I am not buying this spirit of forgiveness crap, maybe the OP wants to run some shit with an ex-scammer and wishes to take off the baggage or whatever.

ibminer, that was meritorious?  

lol nully.. I'll even take the time to SS this one..


nully sure ain't one to talk about meriting absolute bullshit now is he??
The lie about BCH there plus Vod still "Organizing illegal activity" of OG to try to snitch him out to a government with.. < Merited by your favorite nully..
The nully that encourages you to hide your crypto from a government, and then merits reporting someones crypto to the government.. WTF?


Boy howdy we have ourselves a rodeo..


I wrote this in a related sidethread calling for the removal of the tagging system..

Removing long standing red tags in trade (I remove, you remove) does seem like a bit of an admission that the tags were probably just personal bullshit the entire time..

On the other hand, if a user has reformed from their past ways that warranted a warning, changing them to neutral or removing them could just be a sign that the user is no longer as high risk as he previously was..

If everyone can come together here and be honest and drop their shit this thread might work out great, but I'm not betting on that happening just yet by the evidence presented thus far..

[Lauda]

Has he apologized anywhere or shown remorse or did he just stop doing the stuff he shouldn't be doing?

I am not aware of about his/her apology. And yes, he has stop doing the stuff he should not be doing (I think its been long time). Most likely he have chosen the way to prove it practically instead of verbal apology. And I think so its more worthy than verbal apology.    

I don't know about this user, I'll look when I have the time..

Resolved!  

I believe the purpose of this thread is to further the descalation of the trust system, which is something theymos has been pushing for a long time now. (In addition to the stated purpose of the thread).

I believe many of us have wasted too much time in petty fights between ourselves. This time is better spent fighting actual evils or working together and making this place better.

I am curious to see what Quickseller may choose to build on this forum going forward.

In this circumstance, I don’t think it’s appropriate for anybody with a Lauda tag to suddenly come crawling out of the woodwork with vociferous complaints in the “peace” thread.  Those who do so, are only thus proving that they lack the sincerity that Quickseller has shown, as described below.  Indeed, it is trolling with flamebait; and moreover, it is offtopic:  What does any of this have to do with Quickseller, or with Lauda’s announcement of peace with Quickseller?

It is very narcissistic and unfair to do this to me..if someone has their own issue they can PM me, but without the things mentioned in OP there will be no reason to change anything.

[The Cryptovator]

Has he apologized anywhere or shown remorse or did he just stop doing the stuff he shouldn't be doing?

I am not aware of about his/her apology. And yes, he has stop doing the stuff he should not be doing (I think its been long time). Most likely he have chosen the way to prove it practically instead of verbal apology. And I think so its more worthy than verbal apology.    

I don't know about this user, I'll look when I have the time..

Resolved!  

Appreciated, thanks.

I believe the purpose of this thread is to further the descalation of the trust system, which is something theymos has been pushing for a long time now. (In addition to the stated purpose of the thread).

I believe many of us have wasted too much time in petty fights between ourselves. This time is better spent fighting actual evils or working together and making this place better.

That would be nice to build a decent forum. But unfortunately some people always looking for opportunities of criticism, even you tag someone or even you remove tag (Big lol). I don't know what is their intention exactly. If someone against your red tag then they should appreciate current motivation. But I can't see that.

[TheNewAnon135246]

This appears to be a simple case of quickseller/primenumber accepting it must play ball with Laura and his gang. After Laura tagged PN, quickseller then started reversing the pill accusations, toning down the extortion case, and pretty much kissing ass. In return Laura removed the red from pn7 and owlcatz and others started following along.

Red trust bartering.

Both sides were convinced each other were not to be trusted as far as they could throw them only a few weeks back.

Just another clear example of how broken and fake the trust system is.

Make up your mind CH. First you complain about negative feedback being left for invalid reasons and now you are complaining about people removing their 'invalid' feedback.

[Lauda]

That would be nice to build a decent forum. But unfortunately some people always looking for opportunities of criticism, even you tag someone or even you remove tag (Big lol). I don't know what is their intention exactly. If someone against your red tag then they should appreciate current motivation. But I can't see that.

This:

Jay-z and Nas used to say the same things and now they're best pals. Beefs get squashed. I think this is just more proof that you can't really win with what you do here. People leave negative to attack others and complain about that. Then people decide to remove it and call a truce and people also complain about that.

I purposely left this thread un-moderated, despite suggestions and warnings from others, so that observers can observe the true nature of people. This peace is not related to any other disputes, nor did this peace happen in one singular day, nor can it happen unilaterally (don't expect my forgiveness to those who (haven't stopped their activities or) run around behind my back and consistently speak ill of me - that is not changing our ways, that is not peace, that is not honesty in peace..).

[TMAN]

Wake up and read this for a warm and fuzzy feeling. Great effort cat and QS I have plenty of respect for both of you thanks to your recent actions. By rights I should offer to remove my tags and give a cheeky reach around to those that I have tagged but for now I’ll sit on the sidelines and see how it all progresses, should there be
More DT joining the circle jerk then I guess ill join in

[truth or dare]

This appears to be a simple case of quickseller/primenumber accepting it must play ball with Laura and his gang. After Laura tagged PN, quickseller then started reversing the pill accusations, toning down the extortion case, and pretty much kissing ass. In return Laura removed the red from pn7 and owlcatz and others started following along.

Red trust bartering.

Both sides were convinced each other were not to be trusted as far as they could throw them only a few weeks back.

Just another clear example of how broken and fake the trust system is.

Make up your mind CH. First you complain about negative feedback being left for invalid reasons and now you are complaining about people removing their 'invalid' feedback.

You lauda, seem to be confusing me with a member that considers any of the red tag removal deals going around in here, and requests for further mutual red tag removals to be concerning invalid tags.

This is more clear manipulation and bartering using the trust system as leverage.

Quicksellout7 humilating himself in public for some signature cents that almost got removed from his new account has broken him. Either that or he finally sold his accounts like nullius appears to have done.

The only solution that corruption and manipulation has reached these levels is to abandon red tagging entirely. Then abuse of the level 1 flag can push that into retirement leaving no room for subjectivity and abuse. 6

[LoyceV]

QS has returned the bitcoins back to me, as requested by me on mutually agreed upon terms. Here is the relevant portions of the email exchange.

What is the trans ID?

If both parties involved in a trade confirm it's concluded, I see no reason to publish the TXID. This can remain private.

[Lauda]

QS has returned the bitcoins back to me, as requested by me on mutually agreed upon terms. Here is the relevant portions of the email exchange.

What is the trans ID?

If both parties involved in a trade confirm it's concluded, I see no reason to publish the TXID. This can remain private.

I agree, IMO that whole ordeal should be forgiven and needs no further mentioning in this or any other threads.

[nullius]

Quicksellout7 humilating himself in public

Alas, Quickseller, no good deed goes unpunished.

For my part, I found your apology to Lauda to be quite as dignified as such a thing can be, and presumptively sincere, in large part because it was not some apology-culture ritual self-humiliation to fulfill an implied condition of promised forgiveness.

Either that or he finally sold his accounts like nullius appears to have done.

LOL, you “truthfully” daring sockpuppet, you got me!  I sold my account and my PGP private key to somebody who has exactly the same enigmatic personality, inimitable writing style, depth of ideas, and originality of thought as I have.  It was as if I long slept, then awoke in a fantasy world:  A world superior to this one, in which there are two of me!  So, he sent me some big BTC in exchange for my credentials.  I tossed in my longtime friendship with Lauda as a “buy one, get one free” sort of deal.

Signed, nullius’ twin

Are you now claiming that Laura is trustworthy and their account should be red trust free?

What lauda did was wrong, and was a display of poor judgement. With that being said, what happened, happened a long time ago, I have good reason to believe lauda is remorseful for what he did, and to my knowledge he has not made a similar mistake since. I have left the extortion thread unlocked, and it will remain that way provided no trolls bump it to stir up drama.

In addition to being remorseful, Lauda was also punished with the severe consequences of being fired from a prestigious paid job that was probably quite important to her:

You got what you wanted. Lauda is no longer a staff member. You can lock this thread now.

Ouch.

But the admins of this forum must have their reasons for removing Lauda as a staff member, which (unfortunately) I think will never be made public.

You don't think it had something to do with the fact that lauda recently admitted to trying to extort someone?

Indeed, I think it had everything to do with it:  Lauda did something wrong, was punished, and then rapidly regained people’s confidence by remorsefully accepting that, and continuing to otherwise contribute to the community—instead of creating ten thousand whine threads as many of her haters do, “Reeeeeee authoritarian boss theymos fired me from my job—so unfair!!”

(By a comparison of apples and oranges about two very different wrongs, I think that you would have done well to have said,^* “Hey, tspacepilot, if I was going to get busted, at least it was by someone with rigorous forensics instead of reasonable suspicions inflated to ‘compelling evidence’ through armchair guesswork,” and taken whatever practical steps necessary to right wrongs.)

(* To overextend the topic title’s allusion to a point nearing non sequitur, Hannibal and Scipio Africanus mutually agreed that if one of them had to be defeated, at least he would be defeated by the other.  They respected each other with a noble attitude, as if each thought:  If I must fall, let me fall at the hands of the best, who is my equal.  Much though the Romans hated him, Hannibal’s defeat was an historic tragedy.  —Well, I think that I have now passed the point of tragically torturing a noble analogy until it no longer makes any sense.  My apologies to Hannibal.)

Wow

This will hurt the forum.  Lauda was one of the most active staff members.

As a practical matter, the forum’s loss may be my gain.  If I ever start a service dealing with the public, I intend to attempt persuading Lauda to accept the position of holding a large, shiny ban-hammer.  Good help is hard to find, and I need somebody to protect the good people.  Complaints > /dev/null.

I purposely left this thread un-moderated, despite suggestions and warnings from others, so that observers can observe the true nature of people.

Alas, Lauda, no good deed goes unpunished.

This peace is not related to any other disputes, nor did this peace happen in one singular day, nor can it happen unilateral (don't expect my forgiveness to those who (haven't stopped their activities or) run around behind my back and consistently speak ill of me - that is not changing our ways, that is not peace, that is not honesty in peace..).

QFT.  For my part, I may shoot holes in some of the haters later.  Busy now.

[hacker1001101001]

Ok, ignoring all the above bullshit by nullius.

This thread looks as to be proving most of the statements by TECSHARE true.

Most of this reputation fighting and abusing of trust was really based on grudges between some users in power. QS never did a scam which was unforgivable overall, it was only him not willing to bow down or beg for his forgiveness to the powerful users around which made him suffer through I would say, imotional truma for years.

I am not double siding or something, but most of the user's and specially DTs around should use this thread as an example of how a gang of users with power could wrongly phrases an person's overall character on the forum. I just hope this is avoided in the future by learning from this huge mistake and by nurturing a bit of an forgiveness which could save years of wars.

[Lauda]

Most of this reputation fighting and abusing of trust was really based on grudges between some users in power. QS never did a scam which was unforgivable overall, it was only him not willing to bow down or beg for his forgiveness to the powerful users around which made him suffer through I would say, imotional truma for years.

I am not double siding or something, but most of the user's and specially DTs around should use this thread as an example of how a gang of users with power could wrongly phrases an person's overall character on the forum. I just hope this is avoided in the future by learning from this huge mistake and by nurturing a bit of an forgiveness which could save years of wars.

You continue to post such lies and yet you consistently have asked me to remove your negative trust via PM? Do you not see what you are doing is wrong? This was always correct use of the system, I'm really tired of this "only trade" or "only scammers" nonsense that's being portrayed by others. It is incorrect. There is no gang. There is no abuse in QS's case. I will not repeat myself.

[hacker1001101001]

Most of this reputation fighting and abusing of trust was really based on grudges between some users in power. QS never did a scam which was unforgivable overall, it was only him not willing to bow down or beg for his forgiveness to the powerful users around which made him suffer through I would say, imotional truma for years.

I am not double siding or something, but most of the user's and specially DTs around should use this thread as an example of how a gang of users with power could wrongly phrases an person's overall character on the forum. I just hope this is avoided in the future by learning from this huge mistake and by nurturing a bit of an forgiveness which could save years of wars.

You continue to post such lies and yet you consistently have asked me to remove your negative trust via PM? Do you not see what you are doing is wrong? This was always correct use of the system, I'm really tired of this "only trade" or "only scammers" nonsense that's being portrayed by others. It is incorrect. There is no gang. There is no abuse in QS's case. I will not repeat myself.

Don't you see, there is a line of users removing the trust ratings on QS as only you took the first step. Not even users who are trying to scam millions of dollars have that type of ratings which he carried for years, nor do I intend to scam someone around and still carry it. And if the creater of the system says right use of the system is to use it mostly for trade realted purpose, I don't think anything else is the perfect use. Please, I have not even explicitly scammed anyone, just me speaking about one of your wrong rating on me dragged some powered users to spit on my repo for an years old mistake which I have not engaged from long time. That's the power of mobbing I am talking about.

Also, what did I repeat after apologising to you ? I have explicitly said I am on an opposite side of some of the views of yours hence express opinions and I nowhere intended to repeat the mistake of engaging is such activities again as it happened while me having limited knowledge about the workings.

[Lauda]

And if the creater of the system says right use of the system is to use it mostly for trade realted purpose,

The creator of the system never had an issue with the amount of negative ratings that Quickseller got, therefore stop posting nonsense about this. You are on purpose refusing to accept the truth, and therefore I can't help you.

I nowhere intended to repeat the mistake of engaging is such activities again as it happened while me having limited knowledge about the workings.

You are repeating your mistakes.. right here. Deeply disappointed now.

[hacker1001101001]

You are repeating your mistakes.. right here. Deeply disappointed now.

Sorry if you misunderstood, but I was talking about not repeating paid pumping for which I was accused of.

[nullius]

This was always correct use of the system, I'm really tired of this "only trade" or "only scammers" nonsense that's being portrayed by others. It is incorrect.

I must remark, there are two very different visions of how the trust system should be used.  I agree with yours (and sorry, I am indeed a sort of extreme version of you on that point).  In another thread, Quickseller reasonably disagreed with my tag on TECSHARE without picking a fight with me over it.  Ultimately, the community will move to an organic consensus on what best benefits the community as a whole:  A narrowly limited reputational system that exclusively focuses on direct evidence of trading reliability, or a more robust reputational system that encompasses trustworthiness of character (which is indirect evidence of trade risk, as well as being important in a thousand other ways).

Although, as a cypherpunk, I have a yen for discussion of pseudonymous reputational systems, the subject is hereby off-topic beyond noting that reasonable people can debate that point reasonably.

There is no gang. There is no abuse in QS's case. I will not repeat myself.

Moreover, attempts to polarize this thread and turn it into a flamewar are despicable.  It evident that certain parties want for you to have a continuing forum war with Quickseller, because they benefit from conflict qua conflict and from you having more enemies.  Don’t let these sowers of discord get to you, kitty.

[TECSHARE]

This was always correct use of the system, I'm really tired of this "only trade" or "only scammers" nonsense that's being portrayed by others. It is incorrect.

I must remark, there are two very different visions of how the trust system should be used.  I agree with yours (and sorry, I am indeed a sort of extreme version of you on that point).  In another thread, Quickseller reasonably disagreed with my tag on TECSHARE without picking a fight with me over it.  Ultimately, the community will move to an organic consensus on what best benefits the community as a whole:  A narrowly limited reputational system that exclusively focuses on direct evidence of trading reliability, or a more robust reputational system that encompasses trustworthiness of character (which is indirect evidence of trade risk, as well as being important in a thousand other ways).

Although, as a cypherpunk, I have a yen for discussion of pseudonymous reputational systems, the subject is hereby off-topic beyond noting that reasonable people can debate that point reasonably.

There is no gang. There is no abuse in QS's case. I will not repeat myself.

Moreover, attempts to polarize this thread and turn it into a flamewar are despicable.  It evident that certain parties want for you to have a continuing forum war with Quickseller, because they benefit from conflict qua conflict and from you having more enemies.  Don’t let these sowers of discord get to you, kitty.

Except you refuse to debate the point reasonably. Your argument is you agree with an accusation some one else made, which you nor anyone else can substantiate. That is not a debate, that is you unilaterally declaring your actions correct.

Just because people are critical of the clearly superficial nature of this detente doesn't mean they want further escalation. They are simply pointing out the obviously hypocritical nature of claiming to be more reasonable in one place while perpetuating abuses elsewhere. This is a "PR" move more than anything. People could have got off of Quickseller's back a long time ago (and should have).

They are only doing it now because there is push back on their abuse, and it is a low cost way to look good by not mobbing him over some shit that happened a half a decade ago. They already drew their pound of flesh from him, he submitted to deescalation a long time ago. They only stopped beating the dead horse because there was only a pile of dry bones left to beat. They haven't punished their other detractors enough yet to have such a tolerant attitude with them. They will be reasonable AFTER they get what they want, and it doesn't matter anyway (short of less drama to wade through).

[Quickseller]

QS - Can you please ask Ognasty to remove his frivolous negs on me? I removed my negs on him & sent him a peace PM stating I did not want to fight anymore and we should just try and be better to everyone.....

I sent him a PM with a recommendation that he remove his negative rating.

It doesn't sound like he wants to remove his rating. It looks like he has a concern with this post from a month ago, and it appears that he responded to my message with another negative rating.

I have also witnessed lauda making an attempt to gain consensus on potentially controversial red trust before handing it out.

Pretty surprising right? But like what? One time over the Yobit situation?

Specifically over the decision to not tag yahoo over the yobit situation. Yahoo was actively  promoting a business he acknowledged to be a scam. I think that fits the definition of 'high risk' pretty well, but it would be controversial nevertheless. This is actually a good example of the amount of insulation you get when you run signature campaigns.

I am not advocating for others to add lauda to their trust lists, or to blindly trust whatever he says without question, I am saying that a warning for lauda is no longer necessary.

I do agree that these situations regarding Lauda's possible escrow and extortion follies are long in the past and unlikely to be repeated though..

This is the standard of which I base my decision to remove my tag.

I think that Lauda is recently coming around, and I am gaining respect for them back slowly, but it is happening to TS RIGHT NOW

I have stated before that I don't agree with the tag on TS. Given TS's trading history and trust level, I don't see the rating actually hurting him. The way the trust system is setup, these kinds of disputes don't remove his ability to have positive trust.

I was about to type "Atleast Vod hasn't started with the false/absolutely unproven and unlikely accusations yet" but here we have....

OG won't return the money he stole from pirate that was for the community

So there goes that already...

My speculation is Vod will be one of the last people to come around, if he ever does. He is a good example of that a small percentage of controversial ratings will not get you booted from DT if you have sent a lot of ratings. This is in contrast to the risk of getting booted after a single controversial/incorrect rating that was corrected quickly that was the standard 4-5 years ago.

I do hope that Vod comes around eventually. I think part of his problem is his ego, specifically him not wanting to ever be wrong (which results in him doubling down when he is wrong), and part of it is other things. Everyone is wrong sometimes, and no one likes to admit they are wrong.

Merited by ibminer (3)

(Edit)
P.S. I am not buying this spirit of forgiveness crap, maybe the OP wants to run some shit with an ex-scammer and wishes to take off the baggage or whatever.

ibminer, that was meritorious?  

I am also curious about this. I am not betting on him responding in any substantial way. I have my own opinion on ibminer, but I will keep that to myself.

I believe the purpose of this thread is to further the descalation of the trust system, which is something theymos has been pushing for a long time now. (In addition to the stated purpose of the thread).

I believe many of us have wasted too much time in petty fights between ourselves. This time is better spent fighting actual evils or working together and making this place better.

Agreed. Make bitcointalk great again!

[Vod]

I do hope that Vod comes around eventually. I think part of his problem is his ego, specifically him not wanting to ever be wrong (which results in him doubling down when he is wrong), and part of it is other things. Everyone is wrong sometimes, and no one likes to admit they are wrong.

Will you admit you wrong when you posted you knew for a fact I was a pedophile?

[Quickseller]

I do hope that Vod comes around eventually. I think part of his problem is his ego, specifically him not wanting to ever be wrong (which results in him doubling down when he is wrong), and part of it is other things. Everyone is wrong sometimes, and no one likes to admit they are wrong.

Will you admit you wrong when you posted you knew for a fact I was a pedophile?

I should not have said that. I am sorry. 

[Lauda]

I do hope that Vod comes around eventually. I think part of his problem is his ego, specifically him not wanting to ever be wrong (which results in him doubling down when he is wrong), and part of it is other things. Everyone is wrong sometimes, and no one likes to admit they are wrong.

Will you admit you wrong when you posted you knew for a fact I was a pedophile?

I should not have said that. I am sorry.  

Success! Don't forget, we've all made many mistakes and said things we shouldn't have; but forgive and let's move on together.  

[TMAN]

I do hope that Vod comes around eventually. I think part of his problem is his ego, specifically him not wanting to ever be wrong (which results in him doubling down when he is wrong), and part of it is other things. Everyone is wrong sometimes, and no one likes to admit they are wrong.

Will you admit you wrong when you posted you knew for a fact I was a pedophile?

I should not have said that. I am sorry. 

Fuck dude well done. You have gone up in my estimations even more now. Really bud props to you

[LoyceV]

It looks like he has a concern with this post from a month ago

Based on the rule change, that post is now considered low value and can be reported.

Will you admit you wrong when you posted you knew for a fact I was a pedophile?

I should not have said that. I am sorry.

I like this recent wave of correcting and forgiving past mistakes.

[xtraelv]

It looks like he has a concern with this post from a month ago

Based on the rule change, that post is now considered low value and can be reported.

Will you admit you wrong when you posted you knew for a fact I was a pedophile?

I should not have said that. I am sorry.

I like this recent wave of correcting and forgiving past mistakes.

I agree with LoyceV . I like the forgiveness and moving on.It is also in the spirit of what Theymos wants.

The forum has far more important things to offer than squabbles and grudges.

None of the issues are forgotten and there is enough information for people to make up their own minds about issues pertaining certain members.

I would have no hesitation in trading with QS, Lauda, OG, Vod, TMAN, TECHSHARE etc.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Fucking hell, Lauda, QS & Vod all burying past grudges & forgiveness is in the air?

I know it’s Valentine’s Day tomorrow but come on, I can hear Lauda purring from here, the dirty little minx.




Seriously guys, good stuff. Now if OgNasty could follow suit?

[ibminer]

ibminer, that was meritorious?  

I am also curious about this. I am not betting on him responding in any substantial way. I have my own opinion on ibminer, but I will keep that to myself.

And I didn't expect you to respond to my post in any substantial way. And I think there is a good reason why you haven't.. but I will keep that to myself, for now. So why should I respond to you?  

As for me responding to nullius, no thanks, partly because... as he himself states here:

I do not want to write a guidebook for manipulative types to show me what I want to see.

On top of that, because nullius has already shown me in the past he has severely flawed judgement when he promoted and attempted to make a "legend" on this forum out of an underage e-whore trying to long con this forum. His judgement of me wouldn't phase me.

AND, on top of that,


 

I'll at least say this.. actions speak louder than words. And your actions, even in the last 4 or so months, show me you are the same manipulative individual you have been in the past. So, sorry, at this point I won't be jumping in on this circle jerk.

[TECSHARE]

Fucking hell, Lauda, QS & Vod all burying past grudges & forgiveness is in the air?

I know it’s Valentine’s Day tomorrow but come on, I can hear Lauda purring from here, the dirty little minx.

[img ]https://i.ibb.co/rfZ6WTb/C71-D3114-6993-4-E8-F-9-C98-22-EE619-C1763.jpg[/img]


Seriously guys, good stuff. Now if OgNasty could follow suit?

The only thing being buried is current ongoing abuse by Lauda and Vod, using this as cover for it, in the hope everyone forgets it is still ongoing by giving up on beating a dead horse that has been nothing but a pile of bones for a few years now.

[Lauda]

Why do you guys keep on fighting?

[LoyceV]

in the hope everyone forgets it is still ongoing

I don't think anyone here expects anyone to ever forget anything

[Lauda]

in the hope everyone forgets it is still ongoing

I don't think anyone here expects anyone to ever forget anything

Indeed it is so!

Success! Don't forget, we've all made many mistakes and said things we shouldn't have; but forgive and let's move on together. 

[TECSHARE]

in the hope everyone forgets it is still ongoing

I don't think anyone here expects anyone to ever forget anything

Indeed it is so!

Success! Don't forget, we've all made many mistakes and said things we shouldn't have; but forgive and let's move on together.  

Rather convenient you get to just "move on" after abusing the trust system and not doing anything to rectify the situation when you are perfectly capable of doing so. Like I said, you lot only "move on" after the horse you are beating is a pile of bones and you got what you wanted with little or no compromise.

[allahabadi]

Merited by ibminer (3)

(Edit)
P.S. I am not buying this spirit of forgiveness crap, maybe the OP wants to run some shit with an ex-scammer and wishes to take off the baggage or whatever.

ibminer, that was meritorious?  The edit apparently occurred within the 10-minute (?) period in which the post does not show an edit time.

allahabadi, you evidently do not know Lauda very well.  I would suggest that bad people should try to corrupt her into such a conspiracy, because it is a probably a good way for them to earn red-tags.  Anyway, what “shit” would you expect for Lauda to “run”?  Selling pills, maybe?

I cannot speak for ibminer.

Maybe u didn't follow the Atriz aka Zapo aka God-Knows-Who-Else fiasco where the high and mighty coyly sat thru a scammy activity (IMHO). Dunno if the feline was an active party to it or not, also I do know the lowlife vindictive individual the OP is.
Only time will tell what "shit" the OP will indulge in the near future, but since we are nearing another bull run cycle; I assume it is in the best interest of OP to appear as a clean individual cause new individuals coming to deal on the forum wud def look for individuals who haven't dabbled in petty fracas and hold personal grudges (these are my assumptions).


Edit:

Success! Don't forget, we've all made many mistakes and said things we shouldn't have; but forgive and let's move on together. 

Said the Cali cartel to the Medellin cartel!

[truth or dare]

ibminer, that was meritorious?  

I am also curious about this. I am not betting on him responding in any substantial way. I have my own opinion on ibminer, but I will keep that to myself.

And I didn't expect you to respond to my post in any substantial way. And I think there is a good reason why you haven't.. but I will keep that to myself, for now. So why should I respond to you?  

As for me responding to nullius, no thanks, partly because... as he himself states here:

I do not want to write a guidebook for manipulative types to show me what I want to see.

On top of that, because nullius has already shown me in the past he has severely flawed judgement when he promoted and attempted to make a "legend" on this forum out of an underage e-whore trying to long con this forum. His judgement of me wouldn't phase me.

AND, on top of that,


 

I'll at least say this.. actions speak louder than words. And your actions, even in the last 4 or so months, show me you are the same manipulative individual you have been in the past. So, sorry, at this point I won't be jumping in on this circle jerk.

An excellent response.

Nobody is buying this bullahit. The weak are turning a blind eye. The corrupt are in on it.

After years of each other swearing the other is the most scammy, financially dangerous and devious threat here. They both decide to suddenly believe it is in the best interests of the forum to remove warnings from each others accounts at the same time. This is a deal between two of the most untrustworthy members in this forum.

Quicksellout7 suddenly is sucking up to VOD now also. He suddenly redacts the pills accusation, tones back the extortion thread, remove owlcatz (who also suddenly decided quickseller is trustworthy again).

This is so transparent and brazen, simply because they know, nobody will dare do or say anything about it .theymos can't even work out how to blacklist lauda from DT. Quicksellout7 suddenly humiliating himself and begging forgiveness from everyone, tells me that account was perhaps part of the deal. Laura likely controls that account now. It was valueless to Quickseller, lauda can likely get all his accomplices to remove their tags and it will be back on DT and extremely valuable again.

Quicksellout7 snapped when lauda tagged his PN7 account. How sad to see him groveling before lauda now and will be for good now. His only play left is to expose the deal and take them both out for good.

The problem is, that would not get Laura's alts and toadies to cast him out, and anyone suggesting they should fpbso would be red trust nuked.

The only option for trustworthy members is to lobby theymos to remove the tagging system, and make the flagging system robust against this kind of manipulation and abuse.

There is no way Nullius would return just to focus on deep and intensive brown nosing lauda and coincidentally red trusting laudas largest critics on some of the most insane grounds ever dreamed up. I would suggest tagging both of their accounts until the tagging system is removed. You will never fix it so best to use it as they do until it is abolished.

I feel sorry for Cody, but when you are willing to sellout the whole forum and place everyone in more danger for a low level signature. Then there is small chance of any meaningful redemption.

[DragonDance]

An excellent response.

Nobody is buying this bullshit. The weak are turning a blind eye. The corrupt are in on it.

After years of each other swearing the other is the most scammy, financially dangerous and devious threat here. They both decide to suddenly believe it is in the best interests of the forum to remove warnings from each others accounts at the same time. This is a deal between two of the most untrustworthy members in this forum.

Quicksellout7 suddenly is sucking up to VOD now also. He suddenly redacts the pills accusation, tones back the extortion thread, remove owlcatz (who also suddenly decided quickseller is trustworthy again).

This is so transparent and brazen, simply because they know, nobody will dare do or say anything about it .theymos can't even work out how to blacklist lauda from DT. Quicksellout7 suddenly humiliating himself and begging forgiveness from everyone, tells me that account was perhaps part of the deal. Laura likely controls that account now. It was valueless to Quickseller, lauda can likely get all his accomplices to remove their tags and it will be back on DT and extremely valuable again.

Quicksellout7 snapped when lauda tagged his PN7 account. How sad to see him groveling before lauda now and will be for good now. His only play left is to expose the deal and take them both out for good.

The problem is, that would not get Laura's alts and toadies to cast him out, and anyone suggesting they should fpbso would be red trust nuked.

The only option for trustworthy members is to lobby theymos to remove the tagging system, and make the flagging system robust against this kind of manipulation and abuse.

There is no way Nullius would return just to focus on deep and intensive brown nosing lauda and coincidentally red trusting laudas largest critics on some of the most insane grounds ever dreamed up. I would suggest tagging both of their accounts until the tagging system is removed. You will never fix it so best to use it as they do until it is abolished.

I feel sorry for Cody, but when you are willing to sellout the whole forum and place everyone in more danger for a low level signature. Then there is small chance of any meaningful redemption.

whoever you are, you are the staff member this forum needs to save itself from further utter humiliation at the hands of petty criminals.

When will the admin take a hint ? Can there be greater proof to the total corruption and dissolution of ethics in an online forum, when the people who speak the truest and most rational words can only do so behind a dummy account because everyone and their grandmother knows their real account would otherwise be instantly torn to shreds by rabid dishonorable hyenas.

Dear staff & theymos, please wake up and remove the proven criminals from at least the entirety of DT mechanics if you are even remotely interested in running a successful internet forum.

[TheNewAnon135246]

Word spaghetti

whoever you are

He's Cryptohunter, a mental patient who can't resist to continue spreading his delusional mind figments. For some unknown reason he is angry with anyone who is remotely successful in life, likely because he is angrily typing his posts from some shitty appartment somewhere in Chhattisgarh.

[LoyceV]

Sneak preview of my Trust list viewer:

Trust list for: Lauda (Trust: +34 / =2 / -0) (1390 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2020-02-15_Sat_06.10h)
Back to index

~Lauda's judgement is Distrusted by:
1. Removed theymos (Trust: +28 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (62) 6521 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

[TECSHARE]

Sneak preview of my Trust list viewer:

Trust list for: Lauda (Trust: +34 / =2 / -0) (1390 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2020-02-15_Sat_06.10h)
Back to index

~Lauda's judgement is Distrusted by:
1. Removed theymos (Trust: +28 / =0 / -0) (DT1! (62) 6521 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

I am sorry to say it Theymos, but you are a rube. I share a lot of the same ideological goals as you, but you are far too naive an idealistic to acheive any of them. It cost Lauda nothing to do this. There was no compromise, no sacrifice. If anything this act did nothing but serve Lauda by giving them cover for their other abusive behavior. Your little social experiment failed Theymos, and your willingness to be manipulated by people like this is responsible.

[Vod]

I am sorry to say it Theymos, but you are a rube. I share a lot of the same ideological goals as you, but you are far too naive an idealistic to acheive any of them. It cost Lauda nothing to do this. There was no compromise, no sacrifice. If anything this act did nothing but serve Lauda by giving them cover for their other abusive behavior. Your little social experiment failed Theymos, and your willingness to be manipulated by people like this is responsible.

Just reminding you that Theymos' opinion is just one of a hundred. 

[TMAN]

Ha ha brilliant, see techcunt. You are the only one banging a dead horse, well CH as well but he is worth less than a pube left on a toilet seat. Not saying you are worth much more.

[nutildah]

I am sorry to say it Theymos, but you are a rube. I share a lot of the same ideological goals as you, but you are far too naive an idealistic to acheive any of them. It cost Lauda nothing to do this. There was no compromise, no sacrifice. If anything this act did nothing but serve Lauda by giving them cover for their other abusive behavior. Your little social experiment failed Theymos, and your willingness to be manipulated by people like this is responsible.

Too bad you're not a senator, theymos isn't an emperor, and this isn't actually Ancient Rome, because that would have been a great speech.

In reality its a forum about Bitcoin, a subject which I've never seen you write one post about. However, in the spirit of Ancient Rome, what has been democratically decided is that your opinion on these matters is, well, less than valuable.

[TECSHARE]

All of the biggest abusers, working together, in harmony. This is the legacy of the trust system.

[TMAN]

All of the biggest abusers, working together, in harmony. This is the legacy of the trust system.

So you are so up your own arse you think Theymos is an abuser? Fuckwankspazer

[suchmoon]

I find it utterly hilarious that Quicksy is being praised and showered in merits for merely saying "I was wrong" as if that wipes out years of intentional malicious actions. And he still needs to be pointed to the wrong things that he did - wouldn't this come-to-Jesus moment be more credible if he proactively tried to make things right?

I hope all you nice folks won't be rushing to add him to your trust lists (except TECSHARE who already did of course) just because he said a few PC things. He's still sockpuppetting around and treating you all like lab rats in his little sociopathic experiment.

[nullius]

I should catch up on this and a few other threads.  Meanwhile, a few quick notes...

Why do you guys keep on fighting?

Human nature, kitty.  From the moment that I saw this, I accurately predicted that trolls would seize the opportunity to attack both you and Quickseller.

(Ain’t it funny, Quickseller:  I have been perennially accused by multiple persons (cough) of being a Lauda alt—and now, you’ve been accused of having sold your account to Lauda.  You see how that works...  Well, I will see you at the secret underground meeting where we get our orders from an evil cat stroking a pet human.  Cheers. ;-)

What I did not expect was for people who customarily lauded your years-long battle to Protect The Forum From Qucikseller to suddenly forget the terrific effort and energy that you expended toward what, for you, could not have been other than a sincere goal of Protecting The Forum.  So, it is now quite suddenly high time to accuse you of anything from foolishness to ulterior motives of scamming with Quickseller?  Perhaps I may still be naïve:  I did not see that coming.  Should have.

I do like it when people show their true colours.  I prefer honesty, whether it’s intentional or not.


To be filed away for anytime that TECSHARE tries to appeal to theymos’ authority:

I am sorry to say it Theymos, but you are a rube.

Just another example of TECSHARE’s recursively descending hypocrisy:

• When TECSHARE agrees with theymos, and/or can twist a cherry-picked theymos quote to suit his needs:  “theymos says so.  Obey the boss.”
• When TECSHARE disagrees with theymos:  “Theymos, [] you are a rube.”

in the spirit of Ancient Rome, what has been democratically decided

A small historical aside:  Rome was never a democracy.  In the era of the Republic (including the time of the Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage), it was a society divided into rigid social classes, with most of the power held by patricians as a sort of a large, hereditary quasi-aristocracy.  In the time of the Empire, obviously, Rome was a dictatorship—literally, a dictatorship, starting with the Senate’s grant to Julius Caesar of a lifetime title^* of dictator perpetuo.  That was whilst he was alive; after he was dead, they passed a law declaring him to be a god, and the name “Caesar” became a title forever synonymous with “Emperor; lifetime dictator” not only in Latin, but also in German (Kaiser), Russian (Czar), and other languages.

(* In Roman law, the position of dictator had previously a short-term position of emergency power for leadership in times of existential threat to Rome; cf. Cincinnatus, who was glorified for voluntarily renouncing his absolute power of dictatorship as soon as the crisis was resolved—15 days into his six-month legal term as dictator.)

Athens had a bout with democracy.  The right to vote was reserved to free adult male citizens, thus excluding women, metics (legal resident aliens), and a massive slave population—only about 10% of the population had the vote.  The system was still so unstable and prone to corruption that it lasted for less than a century in truly democratic form.

Worst moment of Athenian democracy:  The vote to kill Socrates.  Best moment of Athenian democracy:  The rise of a strongman populist leader, Pericles, whose very name grew to symbolize the glory of Athens at its height.

* nullius doubts that this “democracy” thing ever really worked as advertised, or ever will.

[truth or dare]

How stupid is this windbag Nullius?

Puffing away pretentiously and desperately trying to showcase his self taught basement dwelling derived knowledge of classical civilization.

As usual didn't see the obvious suspicion that would arise when mutual red tag removal and post redactions start to spark up simultaneously between members that have been certain for years each other are the most dangerous scammers here. lol

So yes, it is a deal or account sale.

Just like your resurrection straight on to your knees spreading the cheeks of lauda wide open to feast ever more deeply and greedily with each stomach churning  post you stain the forum with.

Your walls of word salad are useful. They can be shredded with minimal effort and used easily to demonstrate the points you try to support are absolute poison.

You're my new favourite member.

[eddie13]

secret underground meeting

That would explain a lot..
Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

[truth or dare]

secret underground meeting

That would explain a lot..
Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

Indeed. However, even if they did, this would not be a solution. The removal of the tagging system is the only possible fix. 

[TECSHARE]

secret underground meeting

That would explain a lot..
Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

That's because this forum isn't run using rules, it is run by popularity contest.

[suchmoon]

Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

Does he want to be cared about? I get a feeling he's enjoying the little niche he carved for himself. There is some serious competition from cryptohunter V3 in the "rage against DT" competition but he's gonna flame out sooner or later, and TECSHARE will still be here 5 years later barking at passing cars.

[truth or dare]

Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

some speculation

v3 or v4? or ...was cryptohunter v2 v5 v9

I guess only you have the answer.

Regardless of groundless speculation there is no rage against DT. There is only the call to move to an objective standard. I have no idea why you would oppose it. I have no idea because you and every other member here have not presented any valid reason to resist this sensible upgrade.

You are a strange guy suchmoon. Perhaps not bad, but your desire to appear both clever and funny is misleading the honest reader here to into forming a more negative opinion than is necessary. Stop it and express yourself without snark and sarcasm and you could be one of the better ones.

Reading back through your early post history is rather interesting. Not in a bad way. You have some interesting enemies. You have some courage I will give you that.

Rather than reply to compliments with snark and disdain remove that chip from your shoulder and stop looking for every avenue to be sarcastic and mean spirited. It's not clever it's not funny.

Good afternoon.

[TECSHARE]

Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

Does he want to be cared about? I get a feeling he's enjoying the little niche he carved for himself. There is some serious competition from cryptohunter V3 in the "rage against DT" competition but he's gonna flame out sooner or later, and TECSHARE will still be here 5 years later barking at passing cars.

I just want equal protection from the rules that are enforced upon me. Nothing more.

[suchmoon]

Regardless of groundless speculation there is no rage against DT. There is only the call to move to an objective stsndard. I have no idea why you would oppose it. I have no idea because you and every other member here have not presented any valid reason to resist this sensible upgrade.

There is a standard, it's called "make your own fucking standard using your trust list and stop being a salty sockpuppeting dung beetle".

[nullius]

http://loyce.club/archive/posts/5384/53846125.html

secret underground meeting

That would explain a lot..
Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

Extreme out-of-context cherry-picking to turn an obviously sarcastic remark into a serious admission.

Thanks.  It is overt evidence of the same <sarcasm>honesty</sarcasm> that you usually manifest more covertly.

[TECSHARE]

Regardless of groundless speculation there is no rage against DT. There is only the call to move to an objective stsndard. I have no idea why you would oppose it. I have no idea because you and every other member here have not presented any valid reason to resist this sensible upgrade.

There is a standard, it's called "make your own fucking standard using your trust list and stop being a salty sockpuppeting dung beetle".

Exactly how does that help when people refuse to enforce the standards of the trust system and continue to include those that abuse it? Further more, they abuse it to keep out anyone who resists this abusive behavior by excluding anyone who is critical of this abuse. It is kind of like saying "Yeah you have free speech, but you can only exercise it in the basement in the dark between the hours of 3AM and 6AM."

[truth or dare]

Regardless of groundless speculation there is no rage against DT. There is only the call to move to an objective stsndard. I have no idea why you would oppose it. I have no idea because you and every other member here have not presented any valid reason to resist this sensible upgrade.

There is a standard, it's called "make your own fucking standard using your trust list and stop being a salty sockpuppeting dung beetle".

You know full well the system is designed NOT to allow a consistent fair system-wide standard to be set. There will always be set of different standards that destroys free speech and encourages group think and echo chambers.

If you were to present a strong argument to retain red tags rather than move to the objective flagging system that provides a net benefit to the community that was robust. Then I could understand your objection.

My prime concern is free speech, however even should my prime concern be only the financial security / safety of other members It is clear an objective standard focusing exclusively on direct financial risk is superior.

This latest trading of red tag removals and redaction of evidence mutually by those certain for years each other are among the most dangerous scammers here is a clearly concerning.

Please focus on the message rather than the messenger.

To see a transparent set of standards set for all members is my only goal. If you wish to oppose that then I guess we must remain on opposite sides.

You May refer to me as cryptohunter if you wish. I may eventually demonstrate I far predate that member. Then again I may not. It is not worth your attention. You should focus on preparing your argument for retaining red tags if you believe it is genuinely best for the community.

Relax, form your argument and present it snark and sarcasm free. I wish to be civil and accommodating to all members and their views. That does not include scammers. Since you are not a scammer I see no reason to talk to you as one.

This red tag removal bartering attracted my attention. It is a step too far.

[eddie13]

http://loyce.club/archive/posts/5384/53846125.html

secret underground meeting

That would explain a lot..
Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

Extreme out-of-context cherry-picking to turn an obviously sarcastic remark into a serious admission.

Thanks.  It is overt evidence of the same <sarcasm>honesty</sarcasm> that you usually manifest more covertly.

Yeah, I totally said "Look everyone! nullius admitted to secret underground meetings!".. Nope..
Do you not expect readers to have the capacity to see context?


Do you know anything about any deals made? Eh?
You seem a bit overly defensive on that subject now..\

You May refer to me as cryptohunter if you wish. I may eventually demonstrate I far predate that member.

That would be impressive..
I could vouch for you not being CH with the promise of absolute confidentiality if you wanted to send me some proof..

[suchmoon]

Exactly how does that help when people refuse to enforce the standards of the trust system and continue to include those that abuse it? Further more, they abuse it to keep out anyone who resists this abusive behavior by excluding anyone who is critical of this abuse. It is kind of like saying "Yeah you have free speech, but you can only exercise it in the basement in the dark between the hours of 3AM and 6AM."

It works exactly the same way as it does in any other situation where people disagree with you. You can ignore it, or fight it, or blame everyone for not fighting it for you - whatever makes you happy. None of what you described, even if it's real, prevents you from including the Turks and the Russians exercising your free speech.

The trust system in many ways is a (possibly failing) libertarian dream - you give people the tools to control their fate but when it doesn't go the way they imagined it, they start begging for regulations and standards and for the dear leader to provide them guidance.

[TECSHARE]

Exactly how does that help when people refuse to enforce the standards of the trust system and continue to include those that abuse it? Further more, they abuse it to keep out anyone who resists this abusive behavior by excluding anyone who is critical of this abuse. It is kind of like saying "Yeah you have free speech, but you can only exercise it in the basement in the dark between the hours of 3AM and 6AM."

It works exactly the same way as it does in any other situation where people disagree with you. You can ignore it, or fight it, or blame everyone for not fighting it for you - whatever makes you happy. None of what you described, even if it's real, prevents you from including the Turks and the Russians exercising your free speech.

The trust system in many ways is a (possibly failing) libertarian dream - you give people the tools to control their fate but when it doesn't go the way they imagined it, they start begging for regulations and standards and for the dear leader to provide them guidance.

LOL, libertarian. Yeah, lots of people leaving each other alone and observing the non-aggression principle around here for sure.

This system is a pure democracy, and a perfect example of why pure democracy is an utter disaster. As I argued before, the reason the USA is such a successful form of government, is because it is a republic. In a republic the rights of the individual are protected. In a democracy, the mob rules, and the mob takes what the mob wants from the individual. Minority and marginalized groups suffer. A republic places restrictions on what that mob is and is not allowed to do to the individual, providing relative freedom for all compared to a pure democracy. In this case, it would be observable evidence of theft, violation of contractual agreement, or violation of applicable laws before rating. Anything else allows for abuse operated under the guise of policing the forum for fraud, and everyone knows police are never corrupt right?

You keep spreading your fairytales of the evil shady deals of the TECSHARE if it helps you releave your cognitive dissonance. I will keep arguing the facts of the matter.

[truth or dare]

http://loyce.club/archive/posts/5384/53846125.html

secret underground meeting

That would explain a lot..
Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

Extreme out-of-context cherry-picking to turn an obviously sarcastic remark into a serious admission.

Thanks.  It is overt evidence of the same <sarcasm>honesty</sarcasm> that you usually manifest more covertly.

Yeah, I totally said "Look everyone! nullius admitted to secret underground meetings!".. Nope..
Do you not expect readers to have the capacity to see context?


Do you know anything about any deals made? Eh?
You seem a bit overly defensive on that subject now..\

You May refer to me as cryptohunter if you wish. I may eventually demonstrate I far predate that member.

That would be impressive..
I could vouch for you not being CH with the promise of absolute confidentiality if you wanted to send me some proof..

That sadly would not prove that I am not also cryptohunter. Which I may very well be. Who can say. At this time I will politely decline your offer.

Again though Eddie the messenger is really irrelevant. The message is always that which requires scrutiny.

I like you Eddie. A fair and reasonable member. A strong admin prospect.

Directed to suchmoon:  it is actually a libertarian nightmare. You give a handful of members the tools (merit source) to control everones fate. I know that you are smart enough to understand this. Actually, if it had been announced from the outset that earned merit score would mean  that you can set the rules, and deprive people of their warning potential; there would have been a lot more competition.

Imagine telling the public your votes no longer register, only the political ruling party members votes count now.

The system look like it was deliberately designed to gradually erode free speech.  Along with that permit a handful at the top to scam with impunity. Those asking questions are discredited with a scam tag and warning on the top of their threads to disbelieve what you read.

Worrying.

I see theymos has now demonstrated he had no real desire to see lauda removed from DT even though a blatant red trust bartering is taking place in clear view.
He just removed his exclusion.

I would speculate things will only roll downhill from here with regard free speech and transparent objective standards.

When the forum 'warden' (perfect toaa / ch / x) is advocating a member with 9 years of immaculate trading history being branded a scammer by a proven scammer. Then you have a real problem to contend with.

This red trust removal bartering is blatant.  it could only take place with theymos approval. We've known this since OG was tilted towards removing Laura's red tags.

Of course you can spin up 100 alts and say what you like but you will not earn a satoshi. That rules out 99.99% of members reason to be here.

Theymos will never explain his actions, so safest to presume the worst credible intent.  Disappointing, since he is good at presenting admirable goals.

This forum is loaded up with socks. Who knows who is really doing what. I suspect every member that resists objective transparent standards,  Including admin. Why else resist the removal of that which affords huge advantage to a tiny percentage of members.

There is always the possibility theymos is playing a game above which is observable. That hope dwindles away with each move he makes recently. I hope that i am wrong.

I will never believe certain members are not dangerous to this forum. This recent trading of tag removals only supports this.

[suchmoon]

Please focus on the message rather than the messenger.

Oh, I'm sorry. Your message is shit because you're not only refusing to take personal responsibility but also trying to impose your "standards" on others.

[truth or dare]

Please focus on the message rather than the messenger.

Oh, I'm sorry. Your message is shit because you're not only refusing to take personal responsibility but also trying to impose your "standards" on others.

That is not true. The first part is irrelevant bordering raw ad hominem. There is no need for any single member to take responsibility for community determined  transparent objective standards which are applied equally to all members.

No, they can be objective standards that are scrutinized and debated by the entire community. Reason would dictate no single member.

Should I open a suitable thread where you can debate retaining the tagging system over a move to a transparent objective set of standards under the flagging system?

" I'm sorry" was sarcastic, please attempt to control this cathartic indulgence. We can discuss things cordially and in a sensible adult manner. You are not a scammer, there is no reason for us to be unpleasant to one another. Remain calm and rely upon your critcal reasoning to defeat my proposal.

I take it you also reject this red trust bartering is quite worrying and the prime driver was not the safety of the wider community?

Just before we move to our own thread?
I like you suchmoon. You have some principles. I want to investigate them thoroughly before adding you to my future trust inclusions list. I accept that you are not a scammer but is it more important for you to be seen as clever and funny than do what is best for this whole community. Ego is a prime concern. You and TS are like twin brothers actually, the more I observe you both. I hope that both sides realize that is quite a compliment.

You have a little more abrasive or as ch said 'caustic' style suchmoon. He was such an insightful member. I miss his posts dearly. I pray he returns daily.

[suchmoon]

You have a little more abrasive or as ch said 'caustic' style suchmoon. He was such an insightful member. I miss his posts dearly. I pray he returns daily.

Great, you can keep praying and enjoying the last few moments of anyone caring to read your walls of text. Yes, go ahead and create a separate thread, enough derailing this one.

[nullius]

On Cause and Effect

I find it remarkable that the trolls are fixated on the removal or downgrading of tags, which is an effect—rather than the apology, change of behaviour, and mutual agreement to stop fighting, which are the cause.

Remarkable, as in literally, “should be remarked upon”—not unexpected, unusual, or surprising, per the usual connotation.

Extreme out-of-context cherry-picking to turn an obviously sarcastic remark into a serious admission.

Thanks.  It is overt evidence of the same <sarcasm>honesty</sarcasm> that you usually manifest more covertly.

Yeah, I totally said "Look everyone! nullius admitted to secret underground meetings!".. Nope..
Do you not expect readers to have the capacity to see context?

Well, there is your usual “honesty”—i.e., talking from both sides of your mouth.

A reading of your post according to the “ordinary reasonable person” standard makes my point for me, insofar as any ordinary reasonable person can see that you stripped the clause which made it crystal-clear that I was simply ridiculing the notion.  An ELI5 is not required; but for the lulz, let us see how different your post looks when the clause you omitted is restored:

secret underground meeting where we get our orders from an evil cat stroking a pet human

That would explain a lot..
Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

LOL, yes:  “That would explain a lot.”  So would actual witchcraft!  And I am sorry, Mr Quickseller, if you did not realize that simply making peace with Lauda requires that you shall be abducted by space aliens for the implantation of Lauda-alt mind-control devices in your brain.  Well, it is now part of the deal.  The flying saucer will be at your house any moment, for your psychotronic “onboarding” before you are used for breeding experiments.  Anybody who denies this is only a brain-chipped catbot covering up THE TRUTH about you and Lauda, as you will soon see PROVED in a thousand troll posts against you.

Alas, Quickseller, no good deed goes unpunished.

Do you know anything about any deals made? Eh?
You seem a bit overly defensive on that subject now..\

I am not taking the bait, which is almost comically foolish insofar as anybody can see that I am mostly ignoring the cacophony of accusations from the trolls here.  “Defencive”?  Not quite—oh, wait:  Will you next claim that because I refused to be defencive, I must be hiding something?  I did not deny the existence of secret underground meetings with secret deals!

I was interested in the overt evidence of your usual dishonesty, as I said.  Your custom is to be more slippery, as you are here.

So having said, I will not argue the point.  Complaints 2>/dev/null (Thanks, Anonymous, for the upgraded shell script!)

[truth or dare]

On Cause and Effect

I find it remarkable that the trolls are fixated on the removal or downgrading of tags, which is an effect—rather than the apology, change of behaviour, and mutual agreement to stop fighting, which are the cause.

Remarkable, as in literally, “should be remarked upon”—not unexpected, unusual, or surprising, per the usual connotation.

Extreme out-of-context cherry-picking to turn an obviously sarcastic remark into a serious admission.

Thanks.  It is overt evidence of the same <sarcasm>honesty</sarcasm> that you usually manifest more covertly.

Yeah, I totally said "Look everyone! nullius admitted to secret underground meetings!".. Nope..
Do you not expect readers to have the capacity to see context?

Well, there is your usual “honesty”—i.e., talking from both sides of your mouth.

A reading of your post according to the “ordinary reasonable person” standard makes my point for me, insofar as any ordinary reasonable person can see that you stripped the clause which made it crystal-clear that I was simply ridiculing the notion.  An ELI5 is not required; but for the lulz, let us see how different your post looks when the clause you omitted is restored:

secret underground meeting where we get our orders from an evil cat stroking a pet human

That would explain a lot..
Looks like some deals are going on here, but nobody cares about TECSHARE..

LOL, yes:  “That would explain a lot.”  So would actual witchcraft!  And I am sorry, Mr Quickseller, if you did not realize that simply making peace with Lauda requires that you shall be abducted by space aliens for the implantation of Lauda-alt mind-control devices in your brain.  Well, it is now part of the deal.  The flying saucer will be at your house any moment, for your psychotronic “onboarding” before you are used for breeding experiments.  Anybody who denies this is only a brain-chipped catbot covering up THE TRUTH about you and Lauda, as you will soon see PROVED in a thousand troll posts against you.

Alas, Quickseller, no good deed goes unpunished.

Do you know anything about any deals made? Eh?
You seem a bit overly defensive on that subject now..\

I am not taking the bait, which is almost comically foolish insofar as anybody can see that I am mostly ignoring the cacophony of accusations from the trolls here.  “Defencive”?  Not quite—oh, wait:  Will you next claim that because I refused to be defencive, I must be hiding something?  I did not deny the existence of secret underground meetings with secret deals!

I was interested in the overt evidence of your usual dishonesty, as I said.  Your custom is to be more slippery, as you are here.

So having said, I will not argue the point.  Complaints 2>/dev/null (Thanks, Anonymous, for the upgraded shell script!)

Poor Nullius a huge wall of trying to sound smart boils down to.

2 people certain for years that each other are dangerous scammers suddenly and together mutually removing what they have claimed are essential warnings = stopping fighting

lol that sounds in the best interests of the forum.

Can someone graft a brain to what appears to be a heap of random knowledge of perhaps one of those talking encyclopedias? all self taught memorized data with no clue how to apply it.

Please wind bag,  just go back into retirement.

Then again, why deprive myself of this guilty pleasure? Pump out some more pretentious cannon fodder please.
Scammer toadies can qualify for full scammer thrashings I think.

 

[eddie13]

LOL, libertarian. Yeah, lots of people leaving each other alone and observing the non-aggression principle around here for sure.

This forum has devolved from its origination by cypherpunk anarchists building a tool of liberty toward NPC normies who would rather appeal to authority, and power seekers over an economy of profit seekers..

-

"I can neither confirm nor deny"
A pretty good line that got me some great pussy one time when I was asked how I know so much about MCs..
Many of my principles of respect and couth came from the MC culture..

Good luck trying to paint me as dishonest..

[TECSHARE]

LOL, libertarian. Yeah, lots of people leaving each other alone and observing the non-aggression principle around here for sure.

This forum has devolved from its origination by cypherpunk anarchists building a tool of liberty toward NPC normies who would rather appeal to authority, and power seekers over an economy of profit seekers..

-

"I can neither confirm nor deny"
A pretty good line that got me some great pussy one time when I was asked how I know so much about MCs..
Many of my principles of respect and couth came from the MC culture..

Good luck trying to paint me as dishonest..

Yep. The original culture of the forum has been ruined and invaded by trifling statist totalitarian "Karens" who want to talk to your manager and replicate all the horrible systems Bitcoin was designed to escape from. I originally came here to trade because it was a good alternative to places like Fleabay, there wasn't some one crawling up my ass with all kinds of restrictions and I could be left to myself to deal with customers as I chose.

All I ever wanted to do was be left alone to enjoy the forum within my rights to use it as anyone else has. I was dragged into all of this forum politics bullshit against my will, and now I am sure a lot of the people doing the dragging wished they would have just left me to my business, because now I spend my time stapling a list of their double standards to their faces. I guess that is what happens when you remove all incentives from people to work within the established system. Unfortunately the people perpetrating this abuse, or willfully ignoring it, don't seem to get the connection.

Either everyone is free or no one is free. You can avert your eyes now, but eventually it is going to be your turn to be the target of the mob. That is the nature of it, that is unless we collectively stand up to it. Instead we get people here and there resisting, and they are allowed to be picked off one by one while the rest of the jellyfish cower, try to avoid conflict at all cost, and try to pretend that they are "one of the boys", and it will never happen to them.

[suchmoon]

~

Big words. Sadly it's mostly a projection. I'm rooting for you though, maybe one day you'll start practicing what you preach.

[DireWolfM14]

The trust system in many ways is a (possibly failing) libertarian dream

This system is a pure democracy

You're both wrong.  Libertarianism would be the complete lack of a trust system, everyone fending for themselves and doing their own research, caveat emptor.  A pure democracy would leave theymos as the only DT1 member.  We have 100 representatives (DT1) all with differing number of votes, from a wide variety of voters.  It's much closer to a representative democratic republic than either of you are crediting.

 

[TECSHARE]

~

Big words. Sadly it's mostly a projection. I'm rooting for you though, maybe one day you'll start practicing what you preach.

Yep, I am a big old meanie for holding people to the same obsessive and meddling standards they hold others to. Especially when it is one of your pals.

The trust system in many ways is a (possibly failing) libertarian dream

This system is a pure democracy

You're both wrong.  Libertarianism would be the complete lack of a trust system, everyone fending for themselves and doing their own research, caveat emptor.  A pure democracy would leave theymos as the only DT1 member.  We have 100 representatives (DT1) all with differing number of votes, from a wide variety of voters.  It's much closer to a representative democratic republic than either of you are crediting.

You clearly slept through your social studies classes in middle school.

[suchmoon]

You're both wrong.  Libertarianism would be the complete lack of a trust system, everyone fending for themselves and doing their own research, caveat emptor.  A pure democracy would leave theymos as the only DT1 member.  We have 100 representatives (DT1) all with differing number of votes, from a wide variety of voters.  It's much closer to a representative democratic republic than either of you are crediting.

The trust system doesn't prevent anyone from fending for themselves and doing their own research. DT is optional. Trust lists are optional. If someone wants to go full Amish they can just wipe their trust list and have at it.

Yep, I am a big old meanie for holding people to the same obsessive and meddling standards they hold others to. Especially when it is one of your pals.

It doesn't matter what excuse you have for it. That red trust is bullshit regardless of who it is against. Your support of such bullshit ratings makes your whole posturing about "standards" worthless.

[TECSHARE]

You're both wrong.  Libertarianism would be the complete lack of a trust system, everyone fending for themselves and doing their own research, caveat emptor.  A pure democracy would leave theymos as the only DT1 member.  We have 100 representatives (DT1) all with differing number of votes, from a wide variety of voters.  It's much closer to a representative democratic republic than either of you are crediting.

The trust system doesn't prevent anyone from fending for themselves and doing their own research. DT is optional. Trust lists are optional. If someone wants to go full Amish they can just wipe their trust list and have at it.

Except if you want to build a reputation for trade under this system, then you are directly penalized for not participating in it by having positive trust ratings left for you being less visible.

[SatSnatcher]

Libertarianism would be the complete lack of a trust system

DWM14 does have a bit of a point here but I would say more like "the complete lack of a DT system"..
The space to leave notes is not the thing, but rather it is the weight the notes carry if made by certain individuals, and how they got that weight, IMO..

I do like the DT system a lot, but it got quite an unfair start between the initial start of the merit system, concentration of merits to a certain area/board/group, to the initial start of the new DT system, with a group of those protesting the old DT system by creating their own custom trust lists before it was even implemented, having quite a head start..

I still respect theymos a lot, and I think he is trying hard not to put himself in the place of a king here by keeping his hands off of the trust system, and letting it go where it goes, even if he doesn't always agree with its direction..

Though this removing Lauda from his exclusions list move has me really questioning the direction that I see he may hope it will go in..
Quite a wrench thrown into the matrix of what I thought was going on around here, so I have to think again about some things..

[DireWolfM14]

The trust system doesn't prevent anyone from fending for themselves and doing their own research. DT is optional. Trust lists are optional. If someone wants to go full Amish they can just wipe their trust list and have at it.

Agreed, but one individual going at it alone doesn't change the fact that the system works because of the votes of those who participate.  Like a democratic republic, those who don't participate must live with the consequences of their inaction.

Except if you want to build a reputation for trade under this system, then you are directly penalized for not participating in it by having positive trust ratings left for you being less visible.

I'm afraid you will never get it.  The trust system isn't about you, and your precious rating's visibility.  And, I did in fact pay attention to my civics classes.  Just because this democratic republic has rejected you as one of it's representatives doesn't make any less of one.

[TECSHARE]

Libertarianism would be the complete lack of a trust system

DWM14 does have a bit of a point here but I would say more like "the complete lack of a DT system"..

No, he doesn't. He is operating off of the stereotype that libertarianism is like anarchy, it is nothing of the sort. Libertarians still support a system of rights, law, and justice, they just think it should be absolutely minimal as possible.

Except if you want to build a reputation for trade under this system, then you are directly penalized for not participating in it by having positive trust ratings left for you being less visible.

I'm afraid you will never get it.  The trust system isn't about you, and your precious rating's visibility.  And, I did in fact pay attention to my civics classes.  Just because this democratic republic has rejected you as one of it's representatives doesn't make any less of one.

I am afraid you have fooled yourself in order to relieve the cognitive dissonance resulting from your hypocrisy. If this was a democratic republic I would have the right to due process and my accusers would have to substantiate their accusations rather than just make a bunch of them until they can find a story plausible enough to stick for the mob to grab a hold of and run with. You will never get it. The only reason you think everything is fine is because you haven't yet been the target of it. Of course there is also the little matter of the fact that I have 8 years of effort invested into my reputation here, and you just showed up, what a year ago? Easy to be casual with a tiny fraction of the time and effort at stake. When it is you I am sure all of a sudden it will be a travesty. Also the fact that I agitate you doesn't make my argument invalid.

P.S. You better find those principles soon before Nutilduhhh gives your poor goat a prolapse.

[DireWolfM14]

No, he doesn't.

Yes, I do.

I am afraid you have fooled yourself in order to relieve the cognitive dissonance resulting from your hypocrisy.

Is that an accusation you've yet to substantiate?

If this was a democratic republic I would have the right to due process and my accusers would have to substantiate their accusations rather than just make a bunch of them until they can find a story plausible enough to stick for the mob to grab a hold of and run with.

Has your "right to due process" been stripped from you?  Have you been unable to plead your case?  Have others not come to your defense (including myself?)  Accusers be accusing, you be defending, haters be hating.  Where does "due process" even come into play here?

[TECSHARE]

No, he doesn't.

Yes, I do.

I am afraid you have fooled yourself in order to relieve the cognitive dissonance resulting from your hypocrisy.

Is that an accusation you've yet to substantiate?

If this was a democratic republic I would have the right to due process and my accusers would have to substantiate their accusations rather than just make a bunch of them until they can find a story plausible enough to stick for the mob to grab a hold of and run with.

Has your "right to due process" been stripped from you?  Have you been unable to plead your case?  Have others not come to your defense (including myself?)  Accusers be accusing, you be defending, haters be hating.  Where does "due process" even come into play here?

Nah, you really don't. How cute, you can be senseless and refractory. Yes, it has. There is no evidence to support the claims made against me the negative ratings are based on, and the ones who left them refuse to substantiate them. Maybe Google due process, I am not your 5th grade Social Studies teacher. You defending me? Cool story bro. Too bad you still enable this abuse by including those individuals. Kind of like talking about how you need to go on a diet as you continue eating a tub of ice cream from the carton.

[allahabadi]

You're both wrong.  Libertarianism would be the complete lack of a trust system, everyone fending for themselves and doing their own research, caveat emptor.  A pure democracy would leave theymos as the only DT1 member.  We have 100 representatives (DT1) all with differing number of votes, from a wide variety of voters.  It's much closer to a representative democratic republic than either of you are crediting.

I agree with the view on Libertarianism, but fail to understand how a pure democracy wud leave theymos as the only DT1 member?
Also the current DT1 is representative democracy and if you take into account the laddered DT2 and DT3; then IMHO it looks like a Preferential Voting Democracy.

The trust system doesn't prevent anyone from fending for themselves and doing their own research. DT is optional. Trust lists are optional. If someone wants to go full Amish they can just wipe their trust list and have at it.

Although, it is True that the Trust system doesn't prevent anyone from researching for themselves; but it cannot be denied it does provide a semblance of security for dealers on the forum, especially noobs. Thus, to relegate it to a position of utmost irrelevance would be quite a misnomer IMHO. The Trust system is broken and beyond repair as long as we are unable to deny the human element in its assertion (which can't be denied). So, at the end of the day it is To Each His Own.

[TECSHARE]

You're both wrong.  Libertarianism would be the complete lack of a trust system, everyone fending for themselves and doing their own research, caveat emptor.  A pure democracy would leave theymos as the only DT1 member.  We have 100 representatives (DT1) all with differing number of votes, from a wide variety of voters.  It's much closer to a representative democratic republic than either of you are crediting.

I agree with the view on Libertarianism, but fail to understand how a pure democracy wud leave theymos as the only DT1 member?
Also the current DT1 is representative democracy and if you take into account the laddered DT2 and DT3; then IMHO it looks like a Preferential Voting Democracy.

The trust system doesn't prevent anyone from fending for themselves and doing their own research. DT is optional. Trust lists are optional. If someone wants to go full Amish they can just wipe their trust list and have at it.

Although, it is True that the Trust system doesn't prevent anyone from researching for themselves; but it cannot be denied it does provide a semblance of security for dealers on the forum, especially noobs. Thus, to relegate it to a position of utmost irrelevance would be quite a misnomer IMHO. The Trust system is broken and beyond repair as long as we are unable to deny the human element in its assertion (which can't be denied). So, at the end of the day it is To Each His Own.

The trust system is broken because Theymos refuses to restrict the trust system to purely objective uses and ignores the human element.  He had an opportunity to change that with the introduction of the flag system, but he wasted that perpetuating the same flaws that caused its failure to begin with. I warned that the ability to use the system for ambiguous reasons would result in its failure, but he persisted. Unfortunately this thing is such a mess now I am not sure it can be salvaged.