Do you verify every bet as a gambler? Provably Fair Guide.

[Saint-loup]

[...]
Now if we want to manipulate result, it is very easy. You are right, since the SHA512 is one-way hashing algorithm we cannot do reverse calculation (i.e. deciding client seed from roll number), so we have to use brute forcing. But since we are using brute forcing for two way result (either above 50.5 or below 49.5), you will hit the right hash in probably first attempt, if not then maybe second, third or fourth. I don't think it will take more than 5 attempts ever (unless you are so unlucky ). Now calculate the time of doing so:

(fraction of milliseconds)*5 = still fraction of milliseconds


Or in other words, it will literally take no time to generate manipulated seed.

Two strings are created :
STRING1 = "[NONCE]:[SERVER SEED]:[NONCE]"
STRING2 = "[NONCE]:[CLIENT SEED]:[NONCE]"
Then HMAC-SHA512 is used to hash STRING1 with STRING2 as the secret key, giving us a 128 character hex string.
The first 8 characters of the hex string are taken and converted to a decimal.
This decimal is then divided by 429496.7295 and rounded off to the nearest whole number.
This whole number is used as your roll, with the maximum possible value being 10,000.

I just tried this code on my system and hashes were generated at the rate of 132K per second. So every second I have around 66K server seeds to manipulate the result in my favour.

Very interesting datas thank you for this test. I thought HMAC-SHA512 was way more time consuming than that.
We shouldn't forget that several users are playing at the same time and freebitco.in is offering gambles until 94% wining chances.
It means the house has to found one of the 6% losing roll number to cheat the player in this case. But I think they still could handle that.

[khaled0111]

I thought HMAC-SHA512 was way more time consuming than that.

SHA512 hash is longer than a sha256 hash (64 bytes, 32 bytes respectively). However, the speed of generating hashes depends on the used machine: SHA512 hashes are generated faster than sha256 when using a 64-bit machine.

sorry for going off-topic

[Saint-loup]

I thought HMAC-SHA512 was way more time consuming than that.

SHA512 hash is longer than a sha256 hash (64 bytes, 32 bytes respectively). However, the speed of generating hashes depends on the used machine: SHA512 hashes are generated faster than sha256 when using a 64-bit machine.

sorry for going off-topic

"sorry for going off-topic" this is the first time I read that in this section   but I don't think it's off-topic at all.
What do you mean? On a 64-bit machine it's faster to generate SHA512 hashes than SHA256 ones?  
Do you have an explanation for that? or a link explaining this strange phenomenon?

[mbakruroh]

Mostly I agree with your post, but in front we also need to understand " provably " it self. There is no game like that, all features using bot and monopoly by system, even a gambler win million the site still get billion from lost gambler. Gambling is game for fun and people misunderstanding about the purposes. Use it to become rich is worst and find favorite player from gambling world will make you stuck in rich " imagination ".

[webtricks]

Mostly I agree with your post, but in front we also need to understand " provably " it self. There is no game like that, all features using bot and monopoly by system, even a gambler win million the site still get billion from lost gambler. Gambling is game for fun and people misunderstanding about the purposes. Use it to become rich is worst and find favorite player from gambling world will make you stuck in rich " imagination ".

You are absolutely right. Humans have common tendency of greed. They may win one or two times but their greed will drive them to bet more and more and in the end, they lose everything. Generally there are two factors which help fair gambling sites to earn:

(i) House Edge: Suppose a site have house edge of 2% then among 100 bets, roughly 51 will go in the favor of casino while 49 will go in the favor of players. So if each bet worth $100 then casino will make $200 per $10K which are wagered on the site. However, we notice that casinos have much higher profits than 2%. That's because of second factor.

(ii) Players Greed: Even though 49 out of 100 bets go in the favor of players but greed drive players to bet more and more. Suppose I start with $100 and win two games in the row. Now I have $300. But I won't stop here, I will gamble more and it just needed one bet to turn the table. Suppose I increased my bet amount to $150 for third bet and lost! This will further provoke me to go all in for the fourth. And what if I lose the 4th bet? As per the first factor, 2 bets are won by player and 2 are won by house so profit shall be nil. However, greed factor made player to bet everything and lose. Thus house will make the profit of $100 in the end. This scenario happens with 80% players and that's why gambling in profitable business from house's point-of-view even with low house edge.

[webtricks]

Bump!

[Danydee]

(i) Always copy server seed hash shown to you before betting.
(ii) After bet is complete, create new client seed. Make sure server seed is also changed along with it.
(iii) Once new client seed is created, site will show you unhashed server seed of previous bet. Copy it and convert it to sha256 hash using some third party online tool.
(iv) Match the server seed hash that you copied in step (i) to the one generated in step (iii) and make sure both are exactly same.

 For that the most suitable could a little automated tool that do that, installed as extension on your browser ...  I don't see myself doing all these steps when placing every bet.. !

 It should also check for if there's not hidden script that steal the client seed
 

[Casdinyard]

This was really an interesting information and genuinely new specially for me that have been playing on gambling sites for quite sometime. It is new for me to discover about this Provably Fair script and as a gambler, it is important for me to always do check on my bets that is why I am just playing with small bets so it will be just low risk and low chance of losing money. It was just so nice that the OP have exerted such an effort to study how different Provably Fair scripts from different gambling sites works and notice the difference as a coding enthusiast. It is really amazing to know about this fresh information for me because indeed that if you do not know anything about it, you are not really playing bets but just getting into the flow of the house edge of the gambling site itself. Though the information is really technical and seems hard for many to understand, reading the information stated by the OP is worth a time and really informative.

[Sadlife]

Would be nice if there is an online tool that automates the checking of seed hash if it has change while betting because to me, manually copying hash seed in every bet is a bit an hassle it would render my gambling experience unenjoyable. Hope you could also develop a GUI plugin for these kinds of problems and avoid gambling sites exploiting the PF feature.

[ShowOff]

Would be nice if there is an online tool that automates the checking of seed hash if it has change while betting because to me, manually copying hash seed in every bet is a bit an hassle it would render my gambling experience unenjoyable. -snip-

Agree with you.

Some gambler may assume that betting on reputable and trusted gambling site does not require verification of the bet they play because of the reputation held by the site. But all gambler must verify this bet because this is the best way to find out how fair this site is for gambler.

Manipulation on gambling site may have been reported very often by many people and verifying bet will be an important thing to do. Maybe you and I also feel the same about betting verification, this will take time because it has to be done manually and make my gambling experience no longer fun. But to get justice when betting then it is certainly more useful because it is not good to ignore even the slightest thing if it is related to fairness which will affect our bet.

Previously I also never thought that verifying bet was important before starting a bet, but now I think its mandatory. Gambling sites often make their player paranoid for reason of justice which are always a hot topic of conversation. Just saying "we are a fair site" I dont think it would have been trusted if it hadnt been tested.


OP I want to know a few game that we should consider to verify the bet, do I have to verify each roll of the dice or do I only have to do it a few time during the game ?

[webtricks]

OP I want to know a few game that we should consider to verify the bet, do I have to verify each roll of the dice or do I only have to do it a few time during the game ?

If verifying each bet is cumbersome for you then keep it simple. Before placing first bet, choose your own client seed and copy the server seed hash that site showed you somewhere else (this is to make sure that site doesn't show something else as server seed later). Then play with the same set of seeds for the entire session and when you are done then create a new client seed. Now site will reveal you unhashed server seed which is being used to generate results for all of your bets in the session.

Suppose you placed 50 bets in the session then your results should be generated from the HMAC-sha512 hashes of :

First Bet with "ClientSeed+1" as data and ServerSeed as key
Second Bet with "ClientSeed+2" as data and ServerSeed as key
..
..
..
..
..
Fiftieth Bet with "ClientSeed+50" as data and ServerSeed as key

Now randomly verify 5-6 results and if all match then site is fair!

[TimeTeller]

OP I want to know a few game that we should consider to verify the bet, do I have to verify each roll of the dice or do I only have to do it a few time during the game ?

If verifying each bet is cumbersome for you then keep it simple. Before placing first bet, choose your own client seed and copy the server seed hash that site showed you somewhere else (this is to make sure that site doesn't show something else as server seed later). Then play with the same set of seeds for the entire session and when you are done then create a new client seed. Now site will reveal you unhashed server seed which is being used to generate results for all of your bets in the session.

Suppose you placed 50 bets in the session then your results should be generated from the HMAC-sha512 hashes of :

First Bet with "ClientSeed+1" as data and ServerSeed as key
Second Bet with "ClientSeed+2" as data and ServerSeed as key
..
..
..
..
..
Fiftieth Bet with "ClientSeed+50" as data and ServerSeed as key

Now randomly verify 5-6 results and if all match then site is fair!

Actually, I am guilty with that as I seldom do the verification. As I only play in known gambling sites here, I feel I can trust them with provable fairness aspect.
But if the site is new, and wanted to try their site. I try to verify my bet.
But I usually do that only at the start, once I see that the site is practicing provable fairness, I don't verify my succeeding bets.
But if you are shelling a lot of money, I believe you need to verify randomly if they are consistent with their fairness.

[Fundamentals Of]

As a small-time roller, I don't verify my every single bet. That seems an unnecessary hassle or a waste of time for me who's just having pure fun rolling the dice for example. But I admit that it is every gambler's responsibility to make sure he is not just gambling but also makes sure that fairness is installed. A random verification would be enough.

Another reason why I don't verify every bet is that I am using sites which have already made a name in this forum. I don't think you can get away from a red tag and criticism in this forum if you are promoting an unfair gambling site.

[Shimmiry]

As a small-time roller, I don't verify my every single bet. That seems an unnecessary hassle or a waste of time for me who's just having pure fun rolling the dice for example. But I admit that it is every gambler's responsibility to make sure he is not just gambling but also makes sure that fairness is installed. A random verification would be enough.

Another reason why I don't verify every bet is that I am using sites which have already made a name in this forum. I don't think you can get away from a red tag and criticism in this forum if you are promoting an unfair gambling site.

I also don't verify my bets when I play dice or slot games because I also think it is a hassle that I need to check if the gambling site is fair to play or not. But I always check reviews and feedback in this forum if the gambling site that I am visiting is safe and fair to play. So I don't need to verify my every single bet as a gambler because someone has already confirmed it if the site is fair enough.

[Latviand]

Mostly I agree with your post, but in front we also need to understand " provably " it self. There is no game like that, all features using bot and monopoly by system, even a gambler win million the site still get billion from lost gambler. Gambling is game for fun and people misunderstanding about the purposes. Use it to become rich is worst and find favorite player from gambling world will make you stuck in rich " imagination ".

But we can't control people and we can't tell them that gambling is bad if they found happiness in that.

Some people are not only doing gambling just to get rich, some people are entertaining themselves to relieve stress.

Don't idolize someone who are good in gambling because that can negatively affect your money. Gambling platforms are fair because that is a requirement and you should be aware about their own fairness when you are finding a casino where you can gamble comfortably. Just don't make gambling as a source of profit for a long-term because it can make your money disappear in a single betting only.

[bitcoinst]

Actually, I am guilty with that as I seldom do the verification. As I only play in known gambling sites here, I feel I can trust them with provable fairness aspect.
But if the site is new, and wanted to try their site. I try to verify my bet.
But I usually do that only at the start, once I see that the site is practicing provable fairness, I don't verify my succeeding bets.
But if you are shelling a lot of money, I believe you need to verify randomly if they are consistent with their fairness.

Same. The inertia of my mind tells me that checking the fairness bets is unnecessary. After all, I am already playing on the platform chosen by more sophisticated forum users who have probably done all the checks before me. However, everything should be checked, what I think about is just an assumption that relieves me of responsibility and forces me to do nothing.

[Saint-loup]

Actually, I am guilty with that as I seldom do the verification. As I only play in known gambling sites here, I feel I can trust them with provable fairness aspect.
But if the site is new, and wanted to try their site. I try to verify my bet.
But I usually do that only at the start, once I see that the site is practicing provable fairness, I don't verify my succeeding bets.
But if you are shelling a lot of money, I believe you need to verify randomly if they are consistent with their fairness.

Same. The inertia of my mind tells me that checking the fairness bets is unnecessary. After all, I am already playing on the platform chosen by more sophisticated forum users who have probably done all the checks before me. However, everything should be checked, what I think about is just an assumption that relieves me of responsibility and forces me to do nothing.

Maybe it could be a good idea to open a thread where users would post an update everytime they've checked a gamble on a provably fair casino.

[romero121]

I never check with the provably fair feature. I just spend, if lucky I'll win or else it enda up with loss. One day going through my gambling account saw the statistics of my betting. It has got the increased number of winning rolls and low number of losing rolls. While checking the profit statistics it was negative. By the time I checked whether the rolls were provably fair and found everything to be perfect.

[bitcoinst]

Maybe it could be a good idea to open a thread where users would post an update everytime they've checked a gamble on a provably fair casino.

I think this makes sense only if someone makes a certain amount of bets in completely different casinos, and then checks them. Thus, we can understand how things are in each individual casino.
There is no point in checking and posting the same thing every time. If it works, then it works.

[carriebee]

This really gives me an idea on checking every bet I have made. Though I'm just small time player I never check nor verify my bet in a game. But this post makes me now realize there is other else that we can do on checking if the site is offer a provably fair. I never won actually but the site I'm paying is one of the well known online casino.