1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)

[gmaxwell]

This is about http://butterflylabs.com/products/  a company claiming to offer some very high performance dedicated mining hardware.

Initially pre-orders were offered for $500 but the price has since been raised to $699.  No units have shipped. They also clam to be taking preorders for a 50GH/s unit for $24,980.

There is a lot of justified skepticism about the realness of the advertised products.  I created the original thread because I thought, on the basis of the available data, that it was obviously a scam and I was worried that other bitcoiners were getting ripped off. At that point in time there was only a flashy website and a lot of tall promises. The subsequent disclosures have made me reconsider my initial quick judgement— today there is good evidence that some kind of actual hardware exists.

The other thread was becoming a bit large: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48863.0

Of course, speculation is going to be contentious, we're not going to all agree on the relative merits of the various bits of data available — but it would be best if people stuck to the facts and evidence.  If you have an irreconcilable difference in conclusions with someone, don't flame— take comfort in the fact that your superior knowledge will allow you to place profitable bets on the outcome.

(Fair warning: Unproductive back and forth flame-wars will get deleted here)

Useful links

• Betting page: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141 (Now closed awaiting results, with 410.5 BTC bet)
• Posts by Butterfly labs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=44366;sa=showPosts
• Photographs from Inaba's first meeting with Butterfly labs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48863.msg631063#msg631063

[1713549365]

1713549365

[c_k]

from their website reminds me of The IT Crowd - Series 3 - Episode 4: The Internet 

[likuidxd]

Reminds me of HAL9000

[gmaxwell]

If anyone has read Quarantine by Greg Bear ... thats what the box reminds me of.

Can people suggest (via PM) the most informative posts from the first thread to add to the top post here? I'm going to go find some now.
 

[plastic.elastic]

Facts and evidences are already given in the last thread. BFL refuse to give us anything else.

I think its a scam in a sense of deceiving. Just as i said, all the "as seen on TV" crap has the same sales tactic.

Apparently Inaba is their "Shamwow" guy.

[Transisto]

I think its a scam in a sense of deceiving. Just as i said, all the "as seen on TV" crap has the same sales tactic.

Apparently Inaba is their "Shamwow" guy.

OMG, Time to lock this thread again.

Maybe start a new one with a different title, some people are still stuck at defining the word "SC**" in their head.

I would look for revelent post right after BFL posts, (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=44366;sa=showPosts)

[c_k]

So when are these devices (tentatively) scheduled to be sent out to everyone (pre-orders)?

[Transisto]

So when are these devices (tentatively) scheduled to be sent out to everyone (pre-orders)?

Go read or something.

[likuidxd]

It does ask the question, is it a scam, in the title. Maybe a technical discussion thread?

[rjk]

It does ask the question, is it a scam, in the title. Maybe a technical discussion thread?

Also it is $700 now.

[ElectricMucus]

Here is a suggestion: Let BFL create their own thread here in mining, in products or where ever.
Stop discussing this here.

[rjk]

Here is a suggestion: Let BFL create their own thread here in mining, in products or where ever.
Stop discussing this here.

Actually, moving this to the Hardware sub-section seems like a good idea.

[plastic.elastic]

I think its a scam in a sense of deceiving. Just as i said, all the "as seen on TV" crap has the same sales tactic.

Apparently Inaba is their "Shamwow" guy.

OMG, Time to lock this thread again.

Maybe start a new one with a different title, some people are still stuck at defining the word "SC**" in their head.

I would look for revelent post right after BFL posts, (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=44366;sa=showPosts)

Error 604

Post not found!

[c_k]

So when are these devices (tentatively) scheduled to be sent out to everyone (pre-orders)?

Go read or something.

Where do they mention anything more recent than a few weeks in to November on http://butterflylabs.com/ ?

[BFL]

This is about http://butterflylabs.com/products/  a company claiming to offer some very high performance dedicated mining hardware.

Initially pre-orders were offered for $500 but the price has since been raised to $699.  No units have shipped. They also clam to be taking preorders for a 50GH/s unit for $24,980.

There is a lot of justified skepticism about the realness of the advertised products.  I created the original thread because I thought, on the basis of the available data, that it was obviously a scam and I was worried that other bitcoiners were getting ripped off. At that point in time there was only a flashy website and a lot of tall promises. The subsequent disclosures have made me reconsider my initial quick judgement— today there is good evidence that some kind of actual hardware exists.

The other thread was becoming a bit large: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48863.0

Of course, speculation is going to be contentious, we're not going to all agree on the relative merits of the various bits of data available — but it would be best if people stuck to the facts and evidence.  If you have an irreconcilable difference in conclusions with someone, don't flame— take comfort in the fact that your superior knowledge will allow you to place profitable bets on the outcome.

(Fair warning: Unproductive back and forth flame-wars will get deleted here)

Useful links

• Betting page: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141 (over 400 BTC as of 2011-12-01)
• Posts by Butterfly labs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=44366;sa=showPosts
• Photographs from Inaba's first meeting with Butterfly labs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48863.msg631063#msg631063

Hi Guys,

We're encouraged to see an effort to have a reasonable discussion.  Once again I'd like to offer my services to answer any questions you may have about our company and our products.  Those of you who are haunted by negative conclusions, by all means post them.  Once.  However, if a reasonable discussion continues to get drowned out with repetitive, myopic slander, it's unlikely I'll respond.    

For the moment, we are working on final tuning and will be able to do additional public demos soon.

Kind regards,
BFL

[BFL]

Goat, it's all but certain that we'll be above 19.8w in our final power specification.  Once we have that final figure, we'll adjust our website and notify our unit position holders of the resulting figure to give them the option to accept the change in spec or receive a refund.

What will the final power figure be?  Without going into great detail as to the reasoning, it's looking like it will end between 30w to 60w at 1.05 gh/s performance. 

[makomk]

What will the final power figure be?  Without going into great detail as to the reasoning, it's looking like it will end between 30w to 60w at 1.05 gh/s performance. 

So anywhere between 50% and 200% higher than you previously expected? Ouch. I'm actually curious now how the power consumption ended up shooting up so much compared to your original figures and where those figures came from in the first place.

[BFL]

Goat, it's all but certain that we'll be above 19.8w in our final power specification.  Once we have that final figure, we'll adjust our website and notify our unit position holders of the resulting figure to give them the option to accept the change in spec or receive a refund.

What will the final power figure be?  Without going into great detail as to the reasoning, it's looking like it will end between 30w to 60w at 1.05 gh/s performance. 

Thank you for your quick and honest answer! I hope we are falling into a new pattern of openness and understanding.  Would it be too much to ask for your operation to no longer guarantee 19.8 on your website?

Thanks and hope things work out. Looking forward to your final product.

Goat, we've always been willing to participate in an open and reasonable discussion.  This new thread seems to be intended to provide that.  To the extent that it does, we'll be here to answer your questions.  

Regards,
BFL

[BFL]

Well, there's a couple reasons for that.  The static draw is under 19.8w  We then have two different technologies that are used in our product.  One is primarily for the Single and the other is for the Rig Box.  Both can be interchangeable, but the more efficient system was specked out for the single where the 19.8 figure was established.  In the end we're going with the less efficient in initial production for the SIngle.

Having said that, the final power draw on both systems is greater than were predetermined and we would have been over in either case.  We aren't over clocking our chips, but when the draw is greater than design allows, the consumption increases significantly and distorts the true power / mh relationship.  The remedy is straight forward, but the final resulting figures have yet to be established as we're not yet done with the process.

[P4man]

Looks like you get to keep the coins goat. Congrats I suppose, although all along my point was that BFL were not fake as you wanted to bet $10,000 on, so I do feel I was closer to the truth than you