1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)

[RandyFolds]

Slightly murky.

But not necessarily evil or scam.

Most definitely not murky, evil or scammy.

Look up process agents...you need one to operate an incorporated entity. They are essentially a figurehead. They merely forward along any legal matters to the proper party...like, if you wanted to sue an LLC, you serve papers to their process agent. They can be absolutely anyone with a physical address in the state the LLC is incorporated in and have no link to the business other than being required to pass along paperwork to the owner. It can be the owner themselves, a friend/relative or a complete stranger working for a registration company.

Attack the fact that all BFL's claims are bullshit, not something that is completely legitimate but of which you are completely ignorant.

[makomk]

Look up process agents...you need one to operate an incorporated entity. They are essentially a figurehead. They merely forward along any legal matters to the proper party...like, if you wanted to sue an LLC, you serve papers to their process agent. They can be absolutely anyone with a physical address in the state the LLC is incorporated in and have no link to the business other than being required to pass along paperwork to the owner. It can be the owner themselves, a friend/relative or a complete stranger working for a registration company.

That's roughtly of the impression I got, actually. It's still kind of murky, but the murkiness seems to lie partly in the way the US handles incorporation and partly in Wyoming for some reason having a register of corporations that doesn't necessarily list anyone actually involved in said corporation. (Which is really quite daft.)

Also, I managed to get remote access to a machine with a BitForce board attached for the purposes of testing my poclbm-based miner, and came to a few conclusions:

• The board does appear to run at the (reduced) speed stated, though obviously I could actually be mining on wreckage from Roswell or something
• I'm getting the odd hash verification error, not sure if it's a bug in my code or something else
• Either something weird in their network is mangling long polling horribly or there's a truely bizarre bug somewhere

(This is a slight overestimate - I calculate closer to 850 MHash/sec including stales due to the broken long polling, which for some reason masterpool.eu isn't showing. This roughly aligns with the performance I was told to expect.)

[RoadStress]

BFL with a warranty of only SIX months and without any other use of your device other than bitcoin you don't convince me to buy your product. Show me another application where i can use your product and i might put the warranty aside or provide some insurance about the warranty.

[fred0]

Also, I managed to get remote access to a machine with a BitForce board attached for the purposes of testing my poclbm-based miner, and came to a few conclusions:

• The board does appear to run at the (reduced) speed stated, though obviously I could actually be mining on wreckage from Roswell or something
• I'm getting the odd hash verification error, not sure if it's a bug in my code or something else
• Either something weird in their network is mangling long polling horribly or there's a truely bizarre bug somewhere

(This is a slight overestimate - I calculate closer to 850 MHash/sec including stales due to the broken long polling, which for some reason masterpool.eu isn't showing. This roughly aligns with the performance I was told to expect.)

So I take it that your miner, for the duration of the limited test time, out performed the hashrate of the modified ufasoft miner by about 18 MHash.  Good job! Is that a fair conclusion?

[jamesg]

All these discussions on scams or no scams, maybe one member should just spare the $600 get a unit and start mining to see if it is as claimed.

I'll report my findings when my bitforce single arrives. I have ordered one and can detail my experience. If anyone is wondering about my credentials:

My WOT rating (top 30) -> http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=gigavps

My rig building cred -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51350.0

My mining farm -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7216.msg547120#msg547120

Butterfly labs could effect my operations in a big way, hence my purchase of the single. I look forward to it's arrival and putting it to the test.

[makomk]

So I take it that your miner, for the duration of the limited test time, out performed the hashrate of the modified ufasoft miner by about 18 MHash.  Good job! Is that a fair conclusion?

Probably more like somewhere in the range of 5-20 MHash/sec and I'm not entirely confident about that. It's a bit difficult to actually estimate performance that accurately.

[fred0]

So I take it that your miner, for the duration of the limited test time, out performed the hashrate of the modified ufasoft miner by about 18 MHash.  Good job! Is that a fair conclusion?

Probably more like somewhere in the range of 5-20 MHash/sec and I'm not entirely confident about that. It's a bit difficult to actually estimate performance that accurately.

Still, I like the idea that you can have an alternative miner for a product yet to be released. Bravo! Backup pools are a necessity.

I am anxious to see how the production version performs, particularly based on Inaba's comments from his testing.

[Keefe]

With $599, $3.10/BTC, $0.115/KWh, 830 MH/s, 80 W, and current difficulty (1155038), it will take 9.75 months to pay off an investment in BitForce Singles. I want a warranty that assures me the hardware will last at least that long.

BFL: Please consider offering a 1 year warranty, perhaps for a small additional fee if you must.

[grue]

With $599, $3.10/BTC, $0.115/KWh, 830 MH/s, 80 W, and current difficulty (1155038), it will take 9.75 months to pay off an investment in BitForce Singles. I want a warranty that assures me the hardware will last at least that long.

BFL: Please consider offering a 1 year warranty, perhaps for a small additional fee if you must.

warranty isn't going to help if they're not going to honor it

[Inaba]

How does being a legitimate company make a lick of difference to the warranty?  I've had plenty of warranties from "legitimate companies" that wern't worth the paper they were printed on.

BFG immediately springs to mind.  Visiontek (or that other tek company, I can't remember). Plenty of other examples.

On the flip side of that, since nzheng and the XF6000 people aren't legitimate companies, are their warranties worthless? No...

[rjk]

warranty isn't going to help if they're not going to honor it

Wait, are we still on this "new company, therefore scam" shit? They have working units that have been tested (Luke-jr has one, and Inaba has tested one too), and have been open about their revised performance claims. Please, go back to your cave now.

[fred0]

With $599, $3.10/BTC, $0.115/KWh, 830 MH/s, 80 W, and current difficulty (1155038), it will take 9.75 months to pay off an investment in BitForce Singles. I want a warranty that assures me the hardware will last at least that long.

BFL: Please consider offering a 1 year warranty, perhaps for a small additional fee if you must.

I've always considered the "extended warranty" a scam.  If BFL offers one, would BFL be scamming?

I suppose a one year warranty would be useful to manage risk of failure for the payback period.

On the other hand if an optional extended warranty is offered, I'm likely to not buy, since it's likely to be a revenue enhancer for BFL, like most other extended warranties.

[freequant]

warranty isn't going to help if they're not going to honor it

Wait, are we still on this "new company, therefore scam" shit? They have working units that have been tested (Luke-jr has one, and Inaba has tested one too), and have been open about their revised performance claims. Please, go back to your cave now.

Man, BFL is lucky to have dedicated fans like you.
Looking at your posting profile almost entirely devoted to posting praise on BFL threads, you seem to be quite the expert in BFL matters.
(sigh) I wish I too had that kind of charisma that lead people to create accounts just for the purpose of posting on my threads.

[sadpandatech]

warranty isn't going to help if they're not going to honor it

Wait, are we still on this "new company, therefore scam" shit? They have working units that have been tested (Luke-jr has one, and Inaba has tested one too), and have been open about their revised performance claims. Please, go back to your cave now.

Man, BFL is lucky to have dedicated fans like you.
Looking at your posting profile almost entirely devoted to posting praise on BFL threads, you seem to be quite the expert in BFL matters.
(sigh) I wish I too had that kind of charisma that lead people to create accounts just for the purpose of posting on my threads.

I just read all his past posts as well. Tough my take was more of an 'optimistic' person than a fan boy or devoted pumper.

Cynicism is a much needed commodity lest we grow too complacent. But like all good things, is much healthier in controlled doses.

  *offers you a hug* 

  Cheers,
    Derek

[Matthew N. Wright]

warranty isn't going to help if they're not going to honor it

Wait, are we still on this "new company, therefore scam" shit? They have working units that have been tested (Luke-jr has one, and Inaba has tested one too), and have been open about their revised performance claims. Please, go back to your cave now.

Man, BFL is lucky to have dedicated fans like you.
Looking at your posting profile almost entirely devoted to posting praise on BFL threads, you seem to be quite the expert in BFL matters.
(sigh) I wish I too had that kind of charisma that lead people to create accounts just for the purpose of posting on my threads.

I couldn't agree with you more freequant. You are a genius in your own right. There is nothing wrong with what you say. Everyone here is wrong except you. I agree with you whole heartedly.

[freequant]

warranty isn't going to help if they're not going to honor it

Wait, are we still on this "new company, therefore scam" shit? They have working units that have been tested (Luke-jr has one, and Inaba has tested one too), and have been open about their revised performance claims. Please, go back to your cave now.

Man, BFL is lucky to have dedicated fans like you.
Looking at your posting profile almost entirely devoted to posting praise on BFL threads, you seem to be quite the expert in BFL matters.
(sigh) I wish I too had that kind of charisma that lead people to create accounts just for the purpose of posting on my threads.

I couldn't agree with you more freequant. You are a genius in your own right. There is nothing wrong with what you say. Everyone here is wrong except you. I agree with you whole heartedly.

Thank you Matthew, but please send me your praise by PM next time.

[rjk]

warranty isn't going to help if they're not going to honor it

Wait, are we still on this "new company, therefore scam" shit? They have working units that have been tested (Luke-jr has one, and Inaba has tested one too), and have been open about their revised performance claims. Please, go back to your cave now.

Man, BFL is lucky to have dedicated fans like you.
Looking at your posting profile almost entirely devoted to posting praise on BFL threads, you seem to be quite the expert in BFL matters.
(sigh) I wish I too had that kind of charisma that lead people to create accounts just for the purpose of posting on my threads.

I just read all his past posts as well. Tough my take was more of an 'optimistic' person than a fan boy or devoted pumper.

Cynicism is a much needed commodity lest we grow too complacent. But like all good things, is much healthier in controlled doses.

  *offers you a hug* 

  Cheers,
    Derek

Optimistic? Yeah. Fanboi? Nah, but the forums are not my preferred medium of exchange, and I created an account to discuss this product specifically. My home is IRC, where the normal folks hang out (and where you can learn more about things that are happening in real time).

Using the forum is just admitting that you aren't so wholly into the scene that you can't devote your entire time to it, all day.

Anyways, back to our regularly scheduled BFL-bashing, with a sprinkling of misinformation and a dash of cynicism, not to mention a heaping helping of blockheaded stubbornness on the part of the folks that are so happy to protect the sheeple from spending their own money after doing their own research. 

[Syke]

You can accuse us of being power optimistic, but that's as far as it goes.  

Optimistic? Claiming 20 watts when it turns out to be 80 watts is quite a bit more deceptive than "optimistic". Your original claims were outright lies.

[bulanula]

Until we find out what is behind those heatsinks I will not be buying any of this stuff.

We need the processor number and the litography process.

I am sure that if someone wants to copy your product they can do this without getting you to tell them what is what etc.

So, I suggest you let us know what is under the hood. I never buy a product that I know little tech details about.

Thanks !

[makomk]

Wait, are we still on this "new company, therefore scam" shit? They have working units that have been tested (Luke-jr has one, and Inaba has tested one too), and have been open about their revised performance claims. Please, go back to your cave now.

Well, if we're being pedantic I don't think Luke-Jr actually has one yet, he just connected remotely to a BFL computer with one attached like I did. He pre-ordered one but they're obviously not actually shipping yet and presumably won't be until new units with beefier regulators come in.