Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[Branko]

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Ironically enough, Putin is demanding that Ukraine remains neutral and disarm themselves in order for the war to end. You don't think Russia wouldn't immediately invade once more after some number of years when Ukraine is fully demilitarized? If you don't think trusting the West is a good idea, fine. Putin wouldn't be the lesser of two evils though.

They should reject disarming, accept neutrality, ask for EU membership,  reject Donbas area as sovereign countries (but give them broad autonomy inside Ukraine), and they should forget about Crimea

Each passing day more people will die and more both sides will be reluctant to give up fighting and looking for peaceful solution

Of course, they could both choose to be stubborn

[paxmao]

So you are basing the right of Putin to invade Ukraine on the theory that NATO would attack Ukraine.

I didn't mention NATO attacking Ukraine

That's what you got from my post?

...

Ironically enough, Putin is demanding that Ukraine remains neutral and disarm themselves in order for the war to end. You don't think Russia wouldn't immediately invade once more after some number of years when Ukraine is fully demilitarized? If you don't think trusting the West is a good idea, fine. Putin wouldn't be the lesser of two evils though.

They should reject disarming, accept neutrality, ask for EU membership,  reject Donbas area as sovereign countries (but give them broad autonomy inside Ukraine), and they should forget about Crimea

Each passing day more people will die and more both sides will be reluctant to give up fighting and looking for peaceful solution

Of course, they could both choose to be stubborn

From all that, the only thing that would not accept, like any other country in the world, is to give away part of its territory without putting up a fight.

Do you think Putin would ever accept those conditions anyway?

[Tash]

...

Ironically enough, Putin is demanding that Ukraine remains neutral and disarm themselves in order for the war to end. You don't think Russia wouldn't immediately invade once more after some number of years when Ukraine is fully demilitarized? If you don't think trusting the West is a good idea, fine. Putin wouldn't be the lesser of two evils though.

The break away republics (Luhansk, Donetsk and whatever other country will form from the Ukraine corruption rubble) will be neutral, because the local people will vote for it. No-one else has a say in the matter.

[paxmao]

...

Ironically enough, Putin is demanding that Ukraine remains neutral and disarm themselves in order for the war to end. You don't think Russia wouldn't immediately invade once more after some number of years when Ukraine is fully demilitarized? If you don't think trusting the West is a good idea, fine. Putin wouldn't be the lesser of two evils though.

... from the Ukraine corruption rubble)...

As opposed to the morally upstanding and incorruptible Russian cleptocracy goverment?

[suchmoon]

They should reject disarming, accept neutrality, ask for EU membership,  reject Donbas area as sovereign countries (but give them broad autonomy inside Ukraine), and they should forget about Crimea

Each passing day more people will die and more both sides will be reluctant to give up fighting and looking for peaceful solution

Of course, they could both choose to be stubborn

"Both sides" but only Ukraine must make concessions. Not very "peaceful" is it? To reward the invader.

Here is a proper "peaceful solution" - Russian army goes back to Russia (2013 borders) and Russia pays to restore Ukrainian infrastructure plus large compensations for victims.

[Branko]

They should reject disarming, accept neutrality, ask for EU membership,  reject Donbas area as sovereign countries (but give them broad autonomy inside Ukraine), and they should forget about Crimea

Each passing day more people will die and more both sides will be reluctant to give up fighting and looking for peaceful solution

Of course, they could both choose to be stubborn

"Both sides" but only Ukraine must make concessions. Not very "peaceful" is it? To reward the invader.

Here is a proper "peaceful solution" - Russian army goes back to Russia (2013 borders) and Russia pays to restore Ukrainian infrastructure plus large compensations for victims.

That requires Ukraine to win on battlefield, or USA paying few trillions to Libya, Syria, Iraq etc, to give the world and Russia an example

[suchmoon]

That requires Ukraine to win on battlefield

Work in progress.

or USA paying few trillions to Libya, Syria, Iraq etc, to give the world and Russia an example

What about what about what about what about what about what about what about

However the US did spend many billions on infrastructure in Iraq and Afghanistan, so that's settled then, Putin's gonna pay.

[Branko]

However the US did spend many billions on infrastructure in Iraq and Afghanistan, so that's settled then, Putin's gonna pay.

USA spent nothing,,,took their money and gave it to their own companies to "rebuild" what they destroyed, at exorbitant prices

[Veleor]

[...] You can call 2014 coup organized by CIA, but I approve that Ukrainians wanted to get rid of president who worked in interest of Russia and not his own country.
I approve that independent country can decide themselves what organisation they want to join. Especially when they such neighbour like Russia. [...]

If Ukraine is an independent country, then why Joe Biden, by using financial intimidation, dictated to Ukraine which Prosecutor General should be there?

And I'm not sure why there is so much talk about Ukraine joining NATO when there is no sign that they would be accepted anytine soon. They weren't accepted in 2008, after 2014 it become even more unlikely.

You can read the speech of the Secretary General of NATO dated January 10, 2022, about Ukraine was being prepared for join to the alliance.

Code:

On membership.
We have reiterated the decision we made at the Bucharest Summit in 2008 and we stand by that decision.
We help Ukraine to move towards a NATO membership by implementing reforms, by meeting NATO standards.
And we have stated very clearly that we will never compromise on the right for every nation in Europe to choose its own path,
including what kind of security arrangements it wants to be a part of. And therefore, it is fundamental that that principle is not violated in any way.
Meaning that it is for Ukraine and the 30 NATO Allies to decide when Ukraine is ready for membership. No one else has any right to say anything about that.

When NATO refused Russia's demand to provide guarantees that Ukraine would never join the alliance, Russian Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Aleksandr Grushko warned:

Code:

We told NATO honestly that further deterioration in relations poses serious risks.
If NATO moves to a policy of containment, we will move to a policy of counter-containment.
If there is deterrence, there will be counter-deterrence. Attempts to build security without Russia’s involvement are counterproductive.
For us an end to NATO’s open-door policy and legal guarantees that the alliance won’t expand further eastward are absolutely imperative.
NATO expansion creates unacceptable risks for us, which we will resist.
The argument that no one else can determine NATO’s policies towards its members is unfounded.
We don’t rule out the possibility of restoring our diplomatic mission to the alliance.
The Ukrainian authorities need to be forced to comply with the Minsk agreements — then de-escalation will be possible.
NATO must stop all military aid to Kyiv.

Though Ukraine is not an official member of alliance, but according to the NATO Secretary General, their block have trained tens of thousands of Ukrainian troops who are now at war with Russia, NATO supplies Ukraine with various types of weapons. I suppose no one will dispute the fact that the alliance forces are taking part in this military conflict on the side of Ukraine. Although the alliance doesn't want to enter into a direct confrontation with Russia, what is happening now is more like NATO fights against Russia to the last Ukrainian.

So far civilian deaths are relatively low for the war this size.

Even taking into account military actions, I believe that in the civilized world it is unacceptable to talk about "low deaths" among civilians. Need to constantly keep in mind that these are not just numbers but human pain, injuries and broken destinies.

[DaRude]

...

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Geneva convention uh?

While all 196 countries comply with the Geneva conventions, in 2019, Russia withdrew itself from Article 90 of protocol 1. This article expects the country to oblige and comply with any international fact-finding mission.

I wonder why. You see, the only proof of Putin following the Geneva convention is... your word.

Did US sign it? Or you holding Russia to higher standards than US? Big powers are fighting, war is hell, innocent people that are stuck in the middle die. So far civilian deaths are relatively low for the war this size.

One side dominates control of the media, so huge efforts are extended to keep up the moral and try to manage surrenders. Top generals are sacked for treason, mayors declared traitors, videos of military police roughing up alleged saboteurs in civilian clothes, 500k Ukrainian refugees went to Russia etc... Who really cares what's proven true/false in few months, when you need to survive today. Ukraine needs more Russian Warship Go Fuck Yourself moments, just as Russia needs more videos of tictoc battalion doing cool things

I do not hold anyone to a particular standard other than not providing misleading information. It Putin is saying there are no crimes, I, with the information I have currently, disagree.

In so far as I am concern, US presidents and troops have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity and denied it. That does not give others the right to do the same.

Ok so Russia doing the same shit US and NATO did. Big powers do what big powers do, wage wars for sphere of influence. All are shit. I'm assuming you're a logical person, and addressing the issue starting with the biggest offenders? And being objective you covered demolition of Raqqa the city about the size of Mariupol, how many children, women, elderly died? How many maternity wards, hospitals, kindergartens were bombed there, what percentage of infrastructure was left standing? How does it compare to Mariupol, in term of civilian casualties?

From a practical perspective, the US is not threating Europe and, for me, Attacking a democracy is not the same as attacking a despotic regime.

Oh boy, really hoping you didn't mean that. So gov just needs to convince average TV watching population that the regime is despotic, and that somehow makes killing their children better? Dehumanizing opponent is part of every warfare, and we're watching unprecedented levels of this here, i expect lots of books written about psy ops, and media coverage of this war after this is all over. Do you not see the irony in your own words, by your logic Russians are justified because they're fighting Nazis, a despotic regime. Is DPRK, Democratic Republic of the Congo are democracies (after all, it's in their name), Uzbekistan, Hungry a democracy, where is a cutoff? Care to rate democracy in Ukraine? If you can judge school bombings by their level of "democracisness" would you be able to rate a bunch of them if i provide examples?

500k Ukrainian refugees went to Russia etc...

Sure, and millions of people "went" to Siberia and other exciting places during Stalin's "pacкyлaчивaниe".

Care to look up how many mixed Ukrainian/Russian families lived in Ukraine? How many held dual citizenship (even though Ukraine doesn't seem to allow it), how many of those predominately Russian speaking cities in east Ukraine on the boarder with Russia had family/relatives in Russia that can shelter them? Let me know what you find

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I've seen (can't find the source, sorry) a more insane variation of this with regards to Mariupol:

"This is not genocide against Ukrainians because Russian forces are killing Russian (or Russian-speaking) civilians".

Well one of the main units assaulting Mariupol is from Donbass, lots of Units (navy) is from Crimea, which Ukraine and majority of the world still considers to be part of Ukraine, so how could it be genocide??? Surely you're not just parroting talking points by mass media, and can explain which category of people is being targeted for you to think it's a genocide?

500k Ukrainian refugees went to Russia etc...

Like going to Russia was free choice for most of them... And when there is war and your life is at question, going to Russia is probably better option than die.

There's always a choice. Unlike Bandera, I think my grandparents would have higher chances staying in a war zone than trying to go to Nazi Germany. It's an oxymoron to claim genocide when hundreds of thousands of people go to the country supposedly committing said genocide.

[be.open]

That requires Ukraine to win on battlefield

Work in progress.

You are feeding a dangerous and destructive illusion. Ukraine did not have and does not have a chance to defeat Russia. The only question is the number of victims and the scale of destruction. According to NATO estimates, 400 thousand soldiers are needed to take control over Ukraine only east of the Dnieper, Russia, together with the people's militia of Donbass, used almost half as many. Almost 600,000 people were mobilized and armed from the Ukrainian side along with the defense units. Numerical superiority should not be misleading when the military infrastructure is badly destroyed, airfields, weapons depots, fuel depots, military equipment - everywhere there are heavy losses from missile strikes by Caliber and other high-precision weapons. The army of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is now actually deprived of the ability to maneuver in a coordinated manner, it is divided into separate formations under the control of field commanders, and all supply logistics east of the Dnieper is seriously disrupted. This anarchist resistance of Ukraine on naked patriotism, I think, will quickly dry up due to its complete hopelessness and senselessness.

[Tash]

As per Wikipedia Major General Roger L. Cloutier died in Mariupol and was not captured.
https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/numerous-reports-u-s-army-general-captured-in-mariupol-with-azov-nazis

[paxmao]

...

We help Ukraine to move towards a NATO membership by implementing reforms, by meeting NATO standards

...

Has a girl (or boy) ever told you "no, but we can be friends"? Well, in diplomatic terms this means "certainly not yet" or even "possibly not ever" but we can be friends.

Russian Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Aleksandr Grushko warned:...

Again, Putin's WARNED .. that is, your country will do as I say or I will start killing you all. How is that acceptable to any nation? People around do not seem to understand that people are willing to fight and die for their freedom, which leads me to think they have never fought for theirs.

...
Ok so Russia doing the same shit US and NATO did. Big powers do what big powers do, wage wars for sphere of influence. All are shit. I'm assuming you're a logical person, and addressing the issue starting with the biggest offenders? And being objective you covered demolition of Raqqa the city about the size of Mariupol, how many children, women, elderly died? How many maternity wards, hospitals, kindergartens were bombed there, what percentage of infrastructure was left standing? How does it compare to Mariupol, in term of civilian casualties?

...
From a practical perspective, the US is not threating Europe and, for me, Attacking a democracy is not the same as attacking a despotic regime.

Oh boy, really hoping you didn't mean that. So gov just needs to convince average TV watching population that the regime is despotic, and that somehow makes killing their children better?...

Any attack on civils or wanton destruction is criminal, that is out of the question.

I meant what I said: A despotic regime with nuclear weapons attacking an (imperfect, yet incipient) democracy is a problem for me personally and for most of the West. As imperfect as democracies are (and the US is getting worse IMHO) are still a step ahead of Tzars and Emperors on freedom. When Putin attacks Ukraine, I feel attacked. This is unrelated to whether they use or not terror tactics or their criminal actions.

That is what Putin just could not understand, as you seem not to understand either, and one of the causes for the significant setbacks his army is having: People will put a fight for their right to govern themselves, even if they make a mess it will be their mess. Particularly, after decades of communism and enjoying a glimpse of freedom, is unlikely they will accept being de-facto governed by a foreign power that is particularly violent.

As I have said in many posts, the Ukrainians are choosing - and putting their Javelins where their mouths are.

I do not go into who is worst or who does the civil killing best, that is not "logic". As said in several posts, several US governments and presidents have committed crimes against peace, crimes against humanity and war crimes. The US has setup a world stage in which their wealthy elites choose who dies and who lives, even inside the US. How could other than them or a brainwashed population be happy about it? But, if you want to talk about that wathabout you can open an specific thread, you will have many contributors.

That requires Ukraine to win on battlefield

Work in progress.

You are feeding a dangerous and destructive illusion. Ukraine did not have and does not have a chance to defeat Russia. The only question is the number of victims and the scale of destruction. According to NATO estimates, 400 thousand soldiers are needed to take control over Ukraine only east of the Dnieper, Russia, together with the people's militia of Donbass, used almost half as many. Almost 600,000 people were mobilized and armed from the Ukrainian side along with the defense units. Numerical superiority should not be misleading when the military infrastructure is badly destroyed, airfields, weapons depots, fuel depots, military equipment - everywhere there are heavy losses from missile strikes by Caliber and other high-precision weapons. The army of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is now actually deprived of the ability to maneuver in a coordinated manner, it is divided into separate formations under the control of field commanders, and all supply logistics east of the Dnieper is seriously disrupted. This anarchist resistance of Ukraine on naked patriotism, I think, will quickly dry up due to its complete hopelessness and senselessness.

I see. Look, you have to put "tactical" before saying that type of stuff but it sound better. For example "Putin's army made a tactical retreat from Kyiv". See... that does not sound like a defeat now.

Ukraine will be rebuilt. Who will rebuild Putin's Russia prestige and stance in the world?

[Branko]

As per Wikipedia Major General Roger L. Cloutier died in Mariupol and was not captured.
https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/numerous-reports-u-s-army-general-captured-in-mariupol-with-azov-nazis

Wrong, theres no such info on wikipedia, you can check yourself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Cloutier

Now, since there is information war going, too, everything is possible, so we can only wait

[Branko]

Oh boy, really hoping you didn't mean that. So gov just needs to convince average TV watching population that the regime is despotic, and that somehow makes killing their children better? Dehumanizing opponent is part of every warfare, and we're watching unprecedented levels of this here, i expect lots of books written about psy ops, and media coverage of this war after this is all over. Do you not see the irony in your own words, by your logic Russians are justified because they're fighting Nazis, a despotic regime. Is DPRK, Democratic Republic of the Congo are democracies (after all, it's in their name), Uzbekistan, Hungry a democracy, where is a cutoff? Care to rate democracy in Ukraine? If you can judge school bombings by their level of "democracisness" would you be able to rate a bunch of them if i provide examples?

He is probably trying to rationalize UK involvement in bringing democracy to Libya
and Iraq...western media is using that excuse since WW2 when they come after
other countries natural resources

[coolcoinz]

However the US did spend many billions on infrastructure in Iraq and Afghanistan, so that's settled then, Putin's gonna pay.

USA spent nothing,,,took their money and gave it to their own companies to "rebuild" what they destroyed, at exorbitant prices

Why are you always looking to change the subject? Can't justify Putin's actions with some solid arguments so your only line of defense is attacking other countries.
Does the fact that Serbs And Chechens were executing prisoners by cutting their throats make Russians more humane, because they at least shoot them in the head and then give them a proper burial in a mass grave, instead of leaving them on the streets? Oh wait, scratch that, instead of burning them and using their fat to make soap, like Germans in Poland.

This thread is not about the USA, or Serbs, or Iraq, or Germany, but about Russia and Ukraine.

[Branko]

Why are you always looking to change the subject? Can't justify Putin's actions with some solid arguments so your only line of defense is attacking other countries.
Does the fact that Serbs And Chechens were executing prisoners by cutting their throats make Russians more humane, because they at least shoot them in the head and then give them a proper burial in a mass grave, instead of leaving them on the streets? Oh wait, scratch that, instead of burning them and using their fat to make soap, like Germans in Poland.

This thread is not about the USA, or Serbs, or Iraq, or Germany, but about Russia and Ukraine.

I guess its a human nature...when you see for example Madeleine Albright who admitted killing 500 000
Iraq children complaining about Putin, are we supposed to cheer for her or what?
Would you take seriously Charles Manson accusing someone for verbally abusing wife?

[cornhodlr]

Since the recent events happened in Bucha we have heard a lot more about war crimes but only from our side but russian speakers seem to be speaking about war crimes being commited by the Ukranian side also.According to some,many Russian prisoners of war have been killed while held prisoner or tortured and mutilated by Ukranian forces.Anyone have any details about this because all our media channels with Russian content have been cut off or censored ...in our democracy.

[Branko]

Since the recent events happened in Bucha we have heard a lot more about war crimes but only from our side but russian speakers seem to be speaking about war crimes being commited by the Ukranian side also.According to some,many Russian prisoners of war have been killed while held prisoner or tortured and mutilated by Ukranian forces.Anyone have any details about this because all our media channels with Russian content have been cut off or censored ...in our democracy.

Coworker sister currently live and work in China and has interesting comparison between Croatian and Chinese
point of view (translated by Google):

"I don't think the main problem is that Chinese propaganda quotes Russian. Our people do the same. The problem is that in addition to transmitting news, the Chinese media do not write the correct reaction of readers to what is read, such as e.g. ours who clearly tell us what is true and what is a lie.
So, one of the differences between our democracy and the Chinese communist autocracy is that the autocratic media broadcasts the news, and the democratic media, in addition to transmitting the news, suggest which news should be accepted as true and which should not. Shouldn't it be the other way around?"

[cornhodlr]

Since the recent events happened in Bucha we have heard a lot more about war crimes but only from our side but russian speakers seem to be speaking about war crimes being commited by the Ukranian side also.According to some,many Russian prisoners of war have been killed while held prisoner or tortured and mutilated by Ukranian forces.Anyone have any details about this because all our media channels with Russian content have been cut off or censored ...in our democracy.

Coworker sister currently live and work in China and has interesting comparison between Croatian and Chinese
point of view (translated by Google):

"I don't think the main problem is that Chinese propaganda quotes Russian. Our people do the same. The problem is that in addition to transmitting news, the Chinese media do not write the correct reaction of readers to what is read, such as e.g. ours who clearly tell us what is true and what is a lie.
So, one of the differences between our democracy and the Chinese communist autocracy is that the autocratic media broadcasts the news, and the democratic media, in addition to transmitting the news, suggest which news should be accepted as true and which should not. Shouldn't it be the other way around?"

Todays democracy = "Hypocrisy "