Germans are looking to firewood for energy as natural gas prices soar

[stompix]

Back to ignore list. I wonder where you live though and how does your energy bill feel like with all the gas that is "stored"...

Glad to be there, it's like a badge of honor.

But since I don't think you have LoyceV on the ignore list and since he was the one asking you where your numbers about the fact that even full EU gas reserves won't last more than two weeks I think you owe a few answers o those that might still even think you're not just some Iranian propagandist who spreads only lies here.

But well, facts are not something you really want to discuss, right?

Well, it's nice, at least someone is doing well. I also think that the European Union will be able to cope without the supply of energy resources from Russia and there is no need to dramatize the situation.

Be careful what you say, some FSB agents who confuse The sims for sims cards might not get your sarcasm, would be better to reinforce your windows rather than sell that wood to the poor freezing germans.
How many of those gas and oil industry CEOs have taken the final jump after providing the numbers Putin didn't want this year?

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[be.open]

Well, it's nice, at least someone is doing well. I also think that the European Union will be able to cope without the supply of energy resources from Russia and there is no need to dramatize the situation.

Be careful what you say, some FSB agents who confuse The sims for sims cards might not get your sarcasm, would be better to reinforce your windows rather than sell that wood to the poor freezing germans.
How many of those gas and oil industry CEOs have taken the final jump after providing the numbers Putin didn't want this year?

In Argentina, inflation is 70%, in Turkey 80%, and in the European Union only about 10%. I remember the times in the 1990s, when inflation in Russia was several thousand percent per annum. And nothing - somehow survived. Of course, many Europeans will have to give up their usual level of comfort and consumption, but perhaps it will even benefit them. Strategically important enterprises will take advantage of targeted government assistance, private citizens will receive subsidies to pay utility bills, I am sure that Europe has a margin of safety to survive this winter. It’s a little pitiful for small businesses, all sorts of cafes and restaurants that already receive huge electricity bills that they cannot afford, but such is the life and fate of small businesses - in any cataclysms, they are the first to go under the knife, but the first is then restored.

For many years people have been oppressed by low temperatures. They called them "holodryga", "dubak" and other words that have a clearly negative marking. Progressive Europeans must renounce the imposed temperature stereotypes and generally abandon the concepts of "warm" and "cold". It is proposed to refer to them as "temperature No. 1" and "temperature No. 2" in the future. Vocabulary should be temperature neutral. To say that cold is bad is now wrong.


It is necessary to abandon value judgments and accept the temperature as it is. It is important to accept the fact that there are a large number of different temperatures and this is normal. If the government says that the temperature in your apartment, equal to +5⁰, identifies itself as +30⁰, you should respect this feature of it and call it that way. Toxic thermophiles will be banned from social networks and subjected to obstruction. All who complain that they are cold will be recognized as frostophobes. Inciting hatred for the cold is now an extremist crime.

 

[blue_hurricanger]

Sad to realize that only small part of people understand real problem natural resources.

Also sad many politicians don't understand it either. The focus has been on CO₂ and the climate for a long time, up to the point of storing CO₂ underground. But none of that solves the supply problems, and I believe a shortage of resources is going to be a much bigger problem than rising temperatures.

That is why I advocate for countries to go nuclear. Starting with at least half of the total electricity needs come from nuclear power plants. The rest can be filled with hydro dams, renewable energy, and other fossil fuel dependence. If you're from countries with a winter season, the effect of being less dependent on fossil fuel for electricity around the world help to lower the price of coal, natural gas, LNG, propane,... which are very efficient for the heating needs.

Of course, nuclear power has been heavily propagandized by the oil cartels, to keep it at bay because of their greed. We saw oil cartel's propaganda under the guide of how to reduce CO2 emissions only, on renewable energy only because the oil cartels know things like that will never threaten their business.

[STT]

Willow are the fastest growing trees but even that will take 3 to 4 years for a proper stock cycle, I would estimate 2 years for emergency type turn around with reduced timber so unfortunately all these plans have come a bit late.    Its going to be the case that Germany requires a plan on every type of energy and between all those alternatives a solution is found plus we hope the winter is less harsh then originally feared.

[BRINIRHA]

It seems that firewood has indeed become an alternative for some citizens. but they have to think about environmental factors and how so that when they take firewood it doesn't damage the environment. They have to study the tree ecosystem and choose which timber trees are fast growing and which are not. what worries me is that today there is not as much green forest as it used to be. even in every country the forest area continues to narrow. because many are dismantled and used as industrial land or residential land or the like. even the forests that still exist are sometimes cut down without being replanted. awareness of nature seems to have decreased in various countries in this hemisphere.

[Sithara007]

Just remember that Russia hasn't exporting natural gas to Europe completely. The Urengoy-Pomary-Uzhgorod pipeline is still transporting gas from Russia to Europe through Ukraine (although at a reduced capacity). I am not sure for how long this will continue, but for now EU should thank Russia for whatever gas they are getting. BTW, the gas prices are so high that Russia will get the same amount of profit even if they sell 5% of the volumes that they sold in 2020. And I am sure that they are selling much more than that. 

[pooya87]

How about using "Korsi"?



This is an Iranian traditional way of getting warm in at least a hundred years ago when there were no gas pipelines all throughout the country. Basically in addition to a fireplace, our ancestors used to go under these things to remain warm.
The benefit is that it is pretty cheap while efficient since you don't need to burn wood. It can also be used anywhere without needing a "fireplace".

It's pretty simple and you can build it yourself. It consists of 4 main parts:
1. Table
It's a pretty simple 4 leg wooden table, depending on the number of people it could be of any size but usually a medium size table would work since the actual bigger space is provided by the big ass blanket like the picture below. The height shouldn't be enough to have enough space between the heat source and the ceiling.

2. Blanket
It needs to be big so that multiple people can go under it around the table and it needs to be thick to not let the heat out.


The size is flexible depending on the number of people or if for example you live in a tiny apartment:


3. A cover
Usually a simple pretty cloth is thrown over the blanket, to prevent it from getting dirty considering that food and snacks were placed on Korsi.

4. Heat source
The modern versions used for nostalgic purposes use electric heater but since we are talking about high energy costs and burning wood, the old traditional "brazier" should be used here.
It's usually a "metal container" to hold the red hot charcoal and it is placed under the table at the middle, usually in a hole at the bottom or dangling from the ceiling.
Considering charcoal is cheap and you don't need to exactly burn it like firewood so you don't need to use much of it. A handful should suffice to keep you warm.


There is a trick to increase efficiency which is to cover the bottom of the brazier with ash and place the charcoals in the middle.

P.S. Be careful not to burn your place down

[bakasabo]

How about using "Korsi"?



This is an Iranian traditional way of getting warm in at least a hundred years ago when there were no gas pipelines all throughout the country. Basically in addition to a fireplace, our ancestors used to go under these things to remain warm.

P.S. Be careful not to burn your place down

Traditional - that is the problem. I doubt that a newbie European is able to install Korsi properly based on YouTube videos. Without experience, people could not only burn their place down, but also die from poisonous carbon monoxide. People are used to "switch something on" and forget about it. They will most probably start a fire place at home, forget about ventilation (not to lose warmth), go to sleep and never wake up.

[LoyceV]

for now EU should thank Russia for whatever gas they are getting.

For now Russia should thank EU for getting more money than ever!

the gas prices are so high that Russia will get the same amount of profit even if they sell 5% of the volumes that they sold in 2020. And I am sure that they are selling much more than that.

EU plans to implement a price cap on Russian gas, but only starting December 5. And I don't expect the cap to be at normal prices, which would mean a 95% reduction from what we're currently paying. So EU will keep paying more money for less gas. Talk about backfiring!

[Sithara007]

EU plans to implement a price cap on Russian gas, but only starting December 5. And I don't expect the cap to be at normal prices, which would mean a 95% reduction from what we're currently paying. So EU will keep paying more money for less gas. Talk about backfiring!

I am a bit confused. I thought that by December the EU will completely stop importing gas from Russia. And the so called "price cap" is for the crude oil exports from Russia and not for gas (pipeline and LNG). And the price cap is to be implemented by non-EU countries who import Russian fuel, but China has already announced that they will not impose this limit. India has remained uncommitted, and may or may not agree to a cap. But the Russian government has already made their plans clear. No Russian fuel for countries that impose the price cap. So in case India impose this limit, then they will not get any imports from Russia.

Americans can easily put an end to this torture. The government can ask the shale oil/gas producers to increase their production. But then, why should they do that? American gas and oil companies are swimming in cash from their exports to the EU. It is beneficial for them to keep the prices high. We are just focusing on Russia profiting from the increased gas price, but no one wants to talk about how much profit the Americans are making.

[Betwrong]

Germany shouldn't have shut down their Nuclear power plants. Tin-foil hats on, but sometimes I believe that the governments around Europe are infiltrated by "its enemies" and cause their leaders to make very stupid policies. Because why did Germany allow themselves to be dependent on Russian gas?~

That is right, rather they should have built more of them. Just look at this answer provided by Google:



"Have no fear of atomic energy", as Bob Marley said in his "Redemption Song". But seriously, it's true. And yes, the fear of it is irrational, and it is advantageous to those who want others to be dependent on dirty energy sources like gas, oil and coal. This needs to come to an end.

[LoyceV]

I am a bit confused. I thought that by December the EU will completely stop importing gas from Russia. And the so called "price cap" is for the crude oil exports from Russia and not for gas (pipeline and LNG). And the price cap is to be implemented by non-EU countries who import Russian fuel, but China has already announced that they will not impose this limit. India has remained uncommitted, and may or may not agree to a cap. But the Russian government has already made their plans clear. No Russian fuel for countries that impose the price cap. So in case India impose this limit, then they will not get any imports from Russia.

As far as I know, Russian coal is banned in EU already. Russian oil will be banned in December, and Russian gas is still allowed because we can't go without it.
I don't think EU has the power to force other countries to obey a price cap, although collectively it would be great! We should do the same on OPEC countries too, but unfortunately that's not how markets work. If we offer less, someone else will buy it and we get nothing.

[pooya87]

I don't think EU has the power to force other countries to obey a price cap, although collectively it would be great! We should do the same on OPEC countries too, but unfortunately that's not how markets work. If we offer less, someone else will buy it and we get nothing.

I wonder how successful this can be even if they could force others to obey. I've never heard of the customer setting the price instead of the producer. It's like going to a grocery store and demanding to pay less than what the total was.

Same with oil, OPEC consists of producers not consumers and they decide the price. If they are pressured they could simply "shock" the market and increase the price if they wanted to. They've been doing it over the past couple of months, and we know how a simple decision like the recent OPEC+ small 100k bpd reduction (out of 3 million) affects the price (oil jumped up 3%).

[LoyceV]

I wonder how successful this can be even if they could force others to obey. I've never heard of the customer setting the price instead of the producer. It's like going to a grocery store and demanding to pay less than what the total was.

If all customers decide to pay no more than a certain amount, the store can either lower prices, or keep their products.

Same with oil, OPEC consists of producers not consumers and they decide the price.

You're wrong there: OPEC doesn't decide the price. OPEC decides how much they're willing to sell. Depending on the amount, the market decides the price.

If they are pressured they could simply "shock" the market and increase the price if they wanted to.

They could. But if nobody is willing to pay that price, both sides have a problem. OPEC needs the oil money as much as the rest of the world needs the oil.
Prices are based on scarcity. If energy prices go up tenfold, the demand gets only slightly less in the short term. In the long term, people will find alternatives, and that's why OPEC can't sustain a very high price for a long time. Natural gas is the same: we depend on it because it was cheap.

[pooya87]

If all customers decide to pay no more than a certain amount, the store can either lower prices, or keep their products.

That only works with products that the customer can live without.

You're wrong there: OPEC doesn't decide the price. OPEC decides how much they're willing to sell. Depending on the amount, the market decides the price.

That's the same thing. Controlling the supply is one way to control the price.
I don't know the reliability of these stats but they say currently there is about 103.5 mbpd demand for oil while there is only about 96 mbpd being produced. Part of it is because they are intentionally keeping the supply low.

They could. But if nobody is willing to pay that price, both sides have a problem. OPEC needs the oil money as much as the rest of the world needs the oil.

That's a good point but again the same problem with demand comes up. Even if they succeed in forcing everyone in EU to not buy oil (or gas), others will still continue to buy it happily. For example India has been increasing their demand consistently and it is almost back up to pre-pandemic levels despite the price rise. Same with China and some others.

With that in mind what is the private sector going to do in EU? Are they going to keep their money in EU or will they take it elsewhere?
For example will the car industry remain alive in Germany assuming they stop buying energy from Russia because it is being sold to them at a price higher than what the Union set? Or will they move elsewhere like for example India where they can still buy energy and at cheaper prices, on top of that have access to cheap labor and pay lower taxes?

P.S. The amount of money from foreign investors going to India these days is increasing which is why I use that example. Their economy is also growing while the Indian stock market has been booming ever since June.

[Sithara007]

As far as I know, Russian coal is banned in EU already. Russian oil will be banned in December, and Russian gas is still allowed because we can't go without it.
I don't think EU has the power to force other countries to obey a price cap, although collectively it would be great! We should do the same on OPEC countries too, but unfortunately that's not how markets work. If we offer less, someone else will buy it and we get nothing.

If a price cap can be imposed on crude oil, irrespective of it's origin, then it will be a great help to billions of people around the world. The cost of production of crude oil in Saudi Arabia is around $5 per barrel. And they are selling the same at $110 per barrel (including the premium over Brent crude). That is a profit margin of 2,200%. If a price cap can be imposed, then it should be imposed on everyone and not just Russia. That will boost the economies around the world, and will leave less money for oil producing nations to invade other countries.

[South Park]

What happens is that the Fukushima nuclear disaster that happened 11 years ago at Japan reduced if not eliminated completely the possibility of using nuclear energy as our main source of energy during the short term, those that have proposed the use of nuclear energy have dedicated a great deal of their time to try to erase from memory what happened at Chernobyl, and they were relatively successful, but once the disaster happened at Fukushima many people lost the faith they had in nuclear energy and thought events like those were basically inevitable.

And how many people actually died from the Fukushima disaster? There are only a handful cases of cancer that is directly attributed to the disaster, and more than 10 years have passed since the incident. Even in Chernobyl, the number of deaths stayed in double digits. Around 100 individuals developed leukemia, which was later blamed on the radio-active release from the nuclear plant. Now compare that to the 400,000 deaths resulting from coal-fired powerplants in India alone. And in both Fukushima and Chernobyl, the root cause of the disaster was mismanagement by the authorities.

FUD does not just apply to the markets, it applies everywhere and unfortunately nuclear power is very susceptible to it, and it seems we are about to see another round of FUD once again, the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was shelled risking a nuclear disaster, both Ukraine and Russia blame each other like always but even if nothing happens, which is what everyone hopes for, this will be another blow against nuclear energy as this will show how vulnerable nuclear power plants are in the case of prolonged conflict.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/zaporizhzhia-ukraine-evacuation-russia-occupied-nuclear-plant-town-rcna46675

[be.open]

FUD does not just apply to the markets, it applies everywhere and unfortunately nuclear power is very susceptible to it, and it seems we are about to see another round of FUD once again, the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was shelled risking a nuclear disaster, both Ukraine and Russia blame each other like always but even if nothing happens, which is what everyone hopes for, this will be another blow against nuclear energy as this will show how vulnerable nuclear power plants are in the case of prolonged conflict.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/zaporizhzhia-ukraine-evacuation-russia-occupied-nuclear-plant-town-rcna46675

These are horror stories for ordinary people who are unfamiliar with nuclear power plant protection technologies. The protective dome of the reactor is capable of withstanding a direct hit by a tactical nuclear bomb with a yield of several tens of kilotons of TNT or the fall of a passenger airliner. The storage of spent nuclear fuel is a little more vulnerable, but its destruction can only lead to local radioactive contamination of the territory of the nuclear power plant. The maximum that Ukraine can achieve by shelling the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant is for the reactor's emergency protection system to work and the plant to stop working. So far, Ukraine has achieved only that it damaged power lines leading to the territory controlled by Kyiv, providing itself with a shortage of electricity.

[Wind_FURY]

Any alternative with supplies will cost a lot more due to logistical problems. Therefore, a more likely scenario is the purchase of Russian gas in other countries, and according to documents, it will not come from Russia.

I don't think so - because of the same logistical problems. In order to resell Russian gas to the European Union in a democratic package, the intermediary must have some kind of surplus, and no one has such surplus now. Hungary recently agreed with Gazprom on additional gas supplies in the amount of several million cubic meters per day, which will come through the Turkish Stream - and this is perhaps all that the European Union can count on. If Hungary wants to share.

Wasn't Germany the intermediary before? I believe that there might be a conspiracy here. Tin-foil hats on, but the United States might have something to do with this. Because when Germany, the intermediary, has been importing more and more Natural Gas from Russia, they also started being less dependent on U.S. Gas. Isn't possible that the U.S. wants the E.U. to be more dependent on them than the Russians?

Yep. Germany was an intermediary and resold gas to neighbors through a virtual or physical reverse, but now this is in the past - Germany itself does not have enough gas in the conditions of the Nord Stream shutdown.

After reading more about the situation, and talking/learning about it more from smart people, I believe the U.S. didn't intentionally want Germany and the rest of Europe to be a casualty of the conflict. They wanted to use Europe, being the largest buyers of Russian Gas, to stop Russia from invading Ukraine. Biden thought it would be to their advantage, and they thought that Putin would surrender. But Biden never expected Russia's resilience in spite of the sanctions. What should they do now? The U.S. and Europe have no more choice but to keep going unless they swallow their pride and bow to Russia.

[LoyceV]

These are horror stories for ordinary people who are unfamiliar with nuclear power plant protection technologies. The protective dome of the reactor is capable of withstanding a direct hit by a tactical nuclear bomb with a yield of several tens of kilotons of TNT

Insert "not sure if kidding"-meme here.

or the fall of a passenger airliner.

That's several orders of magnitude less powerful.