⚽ Premier League 2025/2026 Discussion Thread ⚽

[hyudien]

Although, it is too early, no one would comfortably predict the teams that will occupy the top 4. However, it seems that Manchester city, Arsenal and Liverpool will maintain their spots at the top of the table, leaving the fourth slot for the battle between Aston villa, Manchester United and Chelsea, if not New Castle.

Man United is on the list of contenders for position 4 is a little doubtful but hopefully this club finds its best game to get back on the right track as the reputation of this club is increasingly far from the initial vision and mission. Don't be surprised if there is an unexpected club that is clearly interested in competing for position 4 in the standings, it could be Brighton or Nottingham Forest. Because so far in the early season these 2 clubs have quietly carried out unexpected aggression from 4 matches without losing, it is already worthy of appreciation.

[tygeade]

Erik Ten Hag came to Manchester United and forced the club’s highest goal scorer of the season out of the club and replaces CR7 with Weghorst who could not score 5 goals in the EPL. Ronaldo scored 17 premier league in his first season. If Ronaldo had gone to Manchester City which he wanted to go before the call from Sir Alex Ferguson, he would have scored more than 30 goals that season. How many Manchester United players have scored 17 premier league goals under Erik Ten Hag? No matter how good you are, when you come to this United side you become a flop. Casemiro is a testament of how poor ETH strategy is.

I mean it's clear that Ronaldo was a great scorer and that is something nice for them to have a scorer like that, but that doesn't mean that we are going to see him be a good influence on the team. Surely Erik Ten Hag was bad, and surely United was terrible as well, Ronaldo was right that they had nothing new in machinery or anything, and they got new stuff recently just because of that and that's a good thing that United is improving because of what Ronaldo said.

Just because ETH is terrible and United was terrible and just because Ronaldo ended up scoring, doesn't mean that we are dealing with a right combination. Ronaldo wasn't the right fit and they should be realizing that they are dealing with something terrible in the end. Because of that I think we should consider them not do that well. We can't see this situation working for the benefit of either United nor deal with Ronaldo, they will not be fitting together that well at all.

[Oluwa-btc]

Ronaldo didn’t lie about Manchester United in his interview with Piers Morgan. It is my opinion that Manchester United were the ones who disrespected Ronaldo. Manchester United fans came up with the “Ronaldo is blocking the progress of Rashford and Martial.“ How many premier league goals have they scored since Ronaldo left the club? Has any United player under ETH surpassed Ronaldo’s 17 premier league goals? No! Martial left the club on a free transfer after earning over £200k at Manchester United. So what’s the misinformation you are talking about? This is football, our opinions cannot be the same on these matters but I don’t misinform anyone to make a point.

I never said shiit about the context of the interview being wrong and stuff. How did Manchester United disrespect Ronaldo?  Can you give the details? It wasn't the fans, people who brought about these claims has to be Wayne Rooney, Paul Scholes and Jamie Carragher, maybe Gary Neville.
I have stated it above, Marcus Rashford also scored 17 Premier League Goals during the same season Ronaldo left Manchester United. Ronaldo is a professional, he should have known the consequences of doing such a video outside would do before he did, but he went ahead to ( I love Ronaldo and I'm glad he called out the management ) do the interview. How is that disrespect from Manchester United management?  Saying Erik Ten Hag forced Ronaldo out of the club is what? Ain't that misinformation? It's obvious you have comprehension issues. Erik Ten Hag is not a poor manager, you just don't have good football knowledge to see it.

[TastyChillySauce00]

There is going to be a wonderful game waiting for us next week! It is Manchester City - Arsenal at Etihad Stadium. What do you say for this game? 

Let's have a look at the odds by the way.



Such attracting odds for Manchester City win right?    The thing is Manchester City can't beat Arsenal in the league for two games. The last one at Etihad ended up with a 0-0 draw. But I feel like Guardiola will finally manage to break Arteta's defense. I just see them better than ever. I must say I'm really curious about Haaland's effort at the same time. He started superbly with 9 goals you know.

Haaland had one important problem before. He wasn't able to contribute much in big games. Let's see whether it will change this season. I expect Guardiola to be the happy manager at the end.

Yeah, that's quite interesting odds. Though Manchester City's odds are slightly down compared to the last days.

Arsenal will likely use almost the same lineup against Tottenham. This gives City an edge, as they are in great form with perfect starts. Also, Haaland seems in his best form now. It will be interesting to see how fierce the upcoming match will be.

But I think I'd rather take a safe bet on this game. BTTS is unlikely to happen, and i consider Double Chance or Under as a good choice from this game. Either of the clubs is often playing safely to ensure they are not losing full points. That's why i think we will see only fewer goals to be scored.

[fuguebtc]

The first shocking loss of Arne Slot era has happened. Nobody expected Liverpool to have even have a chance that they would lose to Notthingham Forrest but it did happen and that's the sad part. I think it's clear that we are going to end up seeing this situation change quite a lot and I believe that we are going see many more of these happen in the future as well, feels like Liverpool definitely looks not that much worse since Klopp left, but not suddenly a great dominant team neither.

It would have been ideal for them if they lost to some bigger club but in the end they would have lost eventually so they just got that out of the way. Same week, we see United and Chelsea both get a win, two teams that are dealing with a lot of chaos right now, so it's definitely a good thing for them without a doubt. Specially United, who looked quite convincing while they were winning as well.

In the last few seasons of Jurgen Klopp's Liverpool, there was one big problem we could see in the games. The problem was the same that we saw on Sunday when Liverpool went up against Nottingham Forest at home. If you have watched enough games of Liverpool, you know what I'm talking about, and if you haven't, the problem is how poor the team plays against a low block. This set of players always goes through a really difficult time against a team who are just majorly defending and trying to get done with a draw or a very scrappy win.


https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/sep/14/big-setback-arne-slot-says-liverpool-fell-below-standards-in-forest-defeat

As Arne himself said after the game, this was the first time he faced a low block with this Liverpool team, and I might sound weird, but I'd say this loss is a good thing because this lets them to learn from how to play against a low block team, and now Arne can build the team from the loss. Nottingham Forest did not do anything crazy tactic wise, but I also felt that the Liverpool players were not giving their all on the pitch. They looked a bit careless, a bit slow, and not at their best. This also played a big role on them not being completely effective and lead them on to a loss. They need to bounce back from this immediately, as they face AC Milan in the midweek and have difficult league games ahead.

[abhiseshakana]

Although, it is too early, no one would comfortably predict the teams that will occupy the top 4. However, it seems that Manchester city, Arsenal and Liverpool will maintain their spots at the top of the table, leaving the fourth slot for the battle between Aston villa, Manchester United and Chelsea, if not New Castle.

Man United is on the list of contenders for position 4 is a little doubtful but hopefully this club finds its best game to get back on the right track as the reputation of this club is increasingly far from the initial vision and mission. Don't be surprised if there is an unexpected club that is clearly interested in competing for position 4 in the standings, it could be Brighton or Nottingham Forest. Because so far in the early season these 2 clubs have quietly carried out unexpected aggression from 4 matches without losing, it is already worthy of appreciation.

It stands to reason that many think Man United will find it difficult to break into the top 4 because their performance has been inconsistent so far. But I am quite sure that Man United can perform better than last season, and I even think they could make a surprise if they could find that harmony. There are some new players who still need adaptation. When they can get past that, and there are no more injured players, they should be able to do more than now.

[hahay]

Martinelli has been so so fucking poor in this game, and he is often missing the ball. 

Afaik, Martinelli's performance wasn't as poor as you rated it, he worked hard in today's game, the problem is that he doesn't have someone to support him, if Timber often work closely with him, everyone would be able to notice Martinelli's form in matches. Overall, he did well, above average.

Yep. Besides his error 1on 1, All around Martinelli did alright in this game
This game wasn't gonna be a game where we saw his blistering best cos other ingredients to facilitate that were missing ala Rice and Odegaard. But he still caused Tottenham problems at the back and supported defensively so well, that I can't fault him today.
Missed chance and new scapegoat got people's judgment clouded

Even though you think Martinelli played badly but anyway, the fact is Arsenal still won and also, Martinelli was just replaced with Sterling in the 80th minute. Thus, then I think Martinelli did not play badly as you say because of course, if Martinelli played badly then it was very possible for Arteta to pull out Martinelli faster and not done in the 80th minute. With considerations like that, then of course Arteta clearly knows everything and Arteta also continues to play Martinelli and that means Martinelli is still playing well, and the most important thing is Arsenal still managed to get three points at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.

[Accardo]

Martinelli has been so so fucking poor in this game, and he is often missing the ball. 

Afaik, Martinelli's performance wasn't as poor as you rated it, he worked hard in today's game, the problem is that he doesn't have someone to support him, if Timber often work closely with him, everyone would be able to notice Martinelli's form in matches. Overall, he did well, above average.

Yep. Besides his error 1on 1, All around Martinelli did alright in this game
This game wasn't gonna be a game where we saw his blistering best cos other ingredients to facilitate that were missing ala Rice and Odegaard. But he still caused Tottenham problems at the back and supported defensively so well, that I can't fault him today.
Missed chance and new scapegoat got people's judgment clouded

The whole narrative would have changed if he managed to score a goal, and worsen if the game ended in a draw or Arsenal lost to Tottenham. Luckily, they won, and still fans blame Martinelli for what actually? his appearances in the game was mainly effective, just that he missed his target or the goalkeeper intercepted it.

Also, he tracked back to help stop the Tottenham's player's possession of the ball. In all, every viewer or spectator have their special analysis of Martinelli's performance, which differs from how we view it.

[Sim_card]

Although, it is too early, no one would comfortably predict the teams that will occupy the top 4. However, it seems that Manchester city, Arsenal and Liverpool will maintain their spots at the top of the table, leaving the fourth slot for the battle between Aston villa, Manchester United and Chelsea, if not New Castle.

Man United is on the list of contenders for position 4 is a little doubtful but hopefully this club finds its best game to get back on the right track as the reputation of this club is increasingly far from the initial vision and mission. Don't be surprised if there is an unexpected club that is clearly interested in competing for position 4 in the standings, it could be Brighton or Nottingham Forest. Because so far in the early season these 2 clubs have quietly carried out unexpected aggression from 4 matches without losing, it is already worthy of appreciation.

It stands to reason that many think Man United will find it difficult to break into the top 4 because their performance has been inconsistent so far. But I am quite sure that Man United can perform better than last season, and I even think they could make a surprise if they could find that harmony. There are some new players who still need adaptation. When they can get past that, and there are no more injured players, they should be able to do more than now.

Manchester united needs to prove to their fans that they are better of finishing on top four of the table by winning their next two matches. This is when I will clear my doubt on them because I will not use their last performance to conclude that they can do it because they plahed against a weak club who just vame back from relegation, and might still go back to relegation at the emd of this season. It is mot about having jigh hopes on United but let them show that they are currently better than alst season.

[Juse14]

..............

Manchester united needs to prove to their fans that they are better of finishing on top four of the table by winning their next two matches. This is when I will clear my doubt on them because I will not use their last performance to conclude that they can do it because they plahed against a weak club who just vame back from relegation, and might still go back to relegation at the emd of this season. It is mot about having jigh hopes on United but let them show that they are currently better than alst season.

Manchester United still have much to prove, perhaps to their fans. A top-four finish is important; however, it has to be proved by consistency against stronger teams. Beating newly promoted or lower-tier clubs is fine, but it is not a measure of their overall quality.

The next couple of games will tell us more. If they can, especially against better competition, then we can begin to see improvement from last season. It's too early at this point to be overly optimistic, so let's just watch the upcoming matches and see how they do before making any grand proclamations.

[Pokapoka124]

Although, it is too early, no one would comfortably predict the teams that will occupy the top 4. However, it seems that Manchester city, Arsenal and Liverpool will maintain their spots at the top of the table, leaving the fourth slot for the battle between Aston villa, Manchester United and Chelsea, if not New Castle.

Man United is on the list of contenders for position 4 is a little doubtful but hopefully this club finds its best game to get back on the right track as the reputation of this club is increasingly far from the initial vision and mission. Don't be surprised if there is an unexpected club that is clearly interested in competing for position 4 in the standings, it could be Brighton or Nottingham Forest. Because so far in the early season these 2 clubs have quietly carried out unexpected aggression from 4 matches without losing, it is already worthy of appreciation.

The top four spot will be a tough competition this season… it will be survival of the fittest this season because not only are the regular five teams are playing well this season, Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Brighton and also Chelsea are all doing better. It is going to be a tough battle for Manchester United. They already said they are not going to make it to the top 4 this season but the manager might be playing mind games. Manchester United have to sit up or they will still not finish top four at the end of the seasons.

[Sandra_hakeem]

The top four spot will be a tough competition this season… it will be survival of the fittest this season because not only are the regular five teams are playing well this season, Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Brighton and also Chelsea are all doing better. It is going to be a tough battle for Manchester United. They already said they are not going to make it to the top 4 this season but the manager might be playing mind games. Manchester United have to sit up or they will still not finish top four at the end of the seasons.

dayummmm!!! New Castle is fire! Smaller teams have always been a thorn in the ass for bigger teams in the premier league... We've been used to that already so, I believe, that's actually why Chelsea has decided to pick up fine form this season. They can't even afford to lose 3 matches in a row like what happened last season.

For man united, the story might be a little bit different; I understand that the manger is really trying his best to avoid any unforseen eventualities, but they're still struggling with their performances which makes everything hard for them ... Do I really have to stand on what Christiano Ronaldo said about his former team, man united? What do I know.

[SatoPrincess]

Ronaldo didn’t lie about Manchester United in his interview with Piers Morgan. It is my opinion that Manchester United were the ones who disrespected Ronaldo. Manchester United fans came up with the “Ronaldo is blocking the progress of Rashford and Martial.“ How many premier league goals have they scored since Ronaldo left the club? Has any United player under ETH surpassed Ronaldo’s 17 premier league goals? No! Martial left the club on a free transfer after earning over £200k at Manchester United. So what’s the misinformation you are talking about? This is football, our opinions cannot be the same on these matters but I don’t misinform anyone to make a point.

I never said shiit about the context of the interview being wrong and stuff. How did Manchester United disrespect Ronaldo?  Can you give the details? It wasn't the fans, people who brought about these claims has to be Wayne Rooney, Paul Scholes and Jamie Carragher, maybe Gary Neville.
I have stated it above, Marcus Rashford also scored 17 Premier League Goals during the same season Ronaldo left Manchester United. Ronaldo is a professional, he should have known the consequences of doing such a video outside would do before he did, but he went ahead to ( I love Ronaldo and I'm glad he called out the management ) do the interview. How is that disrespect from Manchester United management?  Saying Erik Ten Hag forced Ronaldo out of the club is what? Ain't that misinformation? It's obvious you have comprehension issues. Erik Ten Hag is not a poor manager, you just don't have good football knowledge to see it.

Why do I feel I’m getting baited into a Ronaldo, Erik Ten Hag, Manchester United love triangle. Okay I give up. I accept all the blame. Erik Ten Hag is a the manager post SAF, my poor football knowledge is the reason why Manchester United has become a mid table club. My poor football knowledge is the reason Manchester United are underperforming and the managers comes out to say we are not going to finish top 4 season. ETH all the way! I hope you follow him to his next club when he gets sacked.

[Pokapoka124]

The top four spot will be a tough competition this season… it will be survival of the fittest this season because not only are the regular five teams are playing well this season, Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Brighton and also Chelsea are all doing better. It is going to be a tough battle for Manchester United. They already said they are not going to make it to the top 4 this season but the manager might be playing mind games. Manchester United have to sit up or they will still not finish top four at the end of the seasons.

dayummmm!!! New Castle is fire! Smaller teams have always been a thorn in the ass for bigger teams in the premier league... We've been used to that already so, I believe, that's actually why Chelsea has decided to pick up fine form this season. They can't even afford to lose 3 matches in a row like what happened last season.

For man united, the story might be a little bit different; I understand that the manger is really trying his best to avoid any unforseen eventualities, but they're still struggling with their performances which makes everything hard for them ... Do I really have to stand on what Christiano Ronaldo said about his former team, man united? What do I know.

That’s why the premier league is a no man’s league although Manchester City have been dominating for the past five or six seasons. The EPL is unpredictable because a small team that’s at the bottom of the table can cause trouble for a big side like Chelsea or Liverpool and even make them lose important points. Chelsea are gaining their form back, Enzo Maresca is building a strong squad. If they can sign a striker in January, their attack would be formidable. I just hope the internal issues in the club will not affect their performance.

[SatoPrincess]

Erik Ten Hag came to Manchester United and forced the club’s highest goal scorer of the season out of the club and replaces CR7 with Weghorst who could not score 5 goals in the EPL. Ronaldo scored 17 premier league in his first season. If Ronaldo had gone to Manchester City which he wanted to go before the call from Sir Alex Ferguson, he would have scored more than 30 goals that season. How many Manchester United players have scored 17 premier league goals under Erik Ten Hag? No matter how good you are, when you come to this United side you become a flop. Casemiro is a testament of how poor ETH strategy is.

I mean it's clear that Ronaldo was a great scorer and that is something nice for them to have a scorer like that, but that doesn't mean that we are going to see him be a good influence on the team. Surely Erik Ten Hag was bad, and surely United was terrible as well, Ronaldo was right that they had nothing new in machinery or anything, and they got new stuff recently just because of that and that's a good thing that United is improving because of what Ronaldo said.

Just because ETH is terrible and United was terrible and just because Ronaldo ended up scoring, doesn't mean that we are dealing with a right combination. Ronaldo wasn't the right fit and they should be realizing that they are dealing with something terrible in the end. Because of that I think we should consider them not do that well. We can't see this situation working for the benefit of either United nor deal with Ronaldo, they will not be fitting together that well at all.

Manchester United have not been the same since Sir Alex Ferguson left. My vexation with the club is that Ronaldo was meant to move to Manchester City before he was convinced by SAF to return to Old Trafford as their golden boy. I think the presence of Ronaldo in the squad gave hope to the fans and that raised their expectations, they were probably thinking they would return to the Manchester United of old. So when they were not getting positive results, they turned on their golden boy.

You’re right, I don’t think ETH and Ronaldo were a good match. I’m glad he left United, there’s nothing he could have done for that team. ETH was given the opportunity to get his own squad together and we can see how well that is going.

[Cityhunter34]

..............

Manchester united needs to prove to their fans that they are better of finishing on top four of the table by winning their next two matches. This is when I will clear my doubt on them because I will not use their last performance to conclude that they can do it because they plahed against a weak club who just vame back from relegation, and might still go back to relegation at the emd of this season. It is mot about having jigh hopes on United but let them show that they are currently better than alst season.

Manchester United still have much to prove, perhaps to their fans. A top-four finish is important; however, it has to be proved by consistency against stronger teams. Beating newly promoted or lower-tier clubs is fine, but it is not a measure of their overall quality.

The next couple of games will tell us more. If they can, especially against better competition, then we can begin to see improvement from last season. It's too early at this point to be overly optimistic, so let's just watch the upcoming matches and see how they do before making any grand proclamations.

Off course they still have much to prove to there fans, because is not by winning a weak team like Southampton that just came out from religation and We feel that they have improved. However, just like as you have said earlier I think it is when they start to playing with big teams like man city, Arsenal, Aston villa, and Tottenham that we determine there improvement, because though they have already lost t o Brighton and Liverpool and they still have a though match against Crystal palace next week which we can not predict the winer yet because when ever they are playing with Crystal palace they normally find it difficult to win.

[kawetsriyanto]

It stands to reason that many think Man United will find it difficult to break into the top 4 because their performance has been inconsistent so far. But I am quite sure that Man United can perform better than last season, and I even think they could make a surprise if they could find that harmony. There are some new players who still need adaptation. When they can get past that, and there are no more injured players, they should be able to do more than now.

Under Ten Hag's management, Man United always gets difficulty to perform consistently in every match. IMO, the reason is about the quality of Man United squad and the tactics/strategy used by Ten Hag. In the early of this season, Man United already got 2 losses although they could win 2 matches. So, it is normal if people assume Man United will be difficult to finish in the top 4 because they got 2 losses in 4 matches. They were defeated by Brighton and Liverpool. How they can finish in the top 4 if they can't beat a strong team like Brighton and Liverpool? If they want to finish in the top 4, they also must consistent to win the match against strong teams. It looks impossible to finish in the top 4 if they only could get points against weak teams. Considering this fact, do you still believe Man United to surprise us and finish in the top 4? 

Yep. Leny Yoro, Matthijs de Ligt, Noussair Mazraoui, Manuel Ugarte, and Joshua Zirkzee are the new players of Man United this season. These players look having good quality and they are quite young. If these players can adapt well, Man United may improve their performance. However, I'm not really sure they will play immediately with their best in their first season. Many new players can play well in their second season. So, even if these new players can adapt well, it is quite doubtful that Man United can break the the top 4 position.

[ILuckyGuyI]

There is going to be a wonderful game waiting for us next week! It is Manchester City - Arsenal at Etihad Stadium. What do you say for this game? 

Let's have a look at the odds by the way.



Such attracting odds for Manchester City win right?    The thing is Manchester City can't beat Arsenal in the league for two games. The last one at Etihad ended up with a 0-0 draw. But I feel like Guardiola will finally manage to break Arteta's defense. I just see them better than ever. I must say I'm really curious about Haaland's effort at the same time. He started superbly with 9 goals you know.

Haaland had one important problem before. He wasn't able to contribute much in big games. Let's see whether it will change this season. I expect Guardiola to be the happy manager at the end.

Yeah, a really big game is waiting for us at the weekend!    It is a game between 2 favourites of the PL trophy also. As for my opinion, I wouldn't bet on any side here above all else.

My reasoning is that Arteta really knows what he is doing in the games against Manchester City. Just as the example you have given already.    He was Guardiola's assistant manager before and he knows how to play against him.

If Arteta stops Haaland too then it won't be easy for Manchester City to beat them. It really doesn't matter for Arteta if he plays away or not. It is all about solving your competitor's game nicely. As for betting, maybe BTTS might be my choice.

[Die_empty]

Manchester United have not been the same since Sir Alex Ferguson left. My vexation with the club is that Ronaldo was meant to move to Manchester City before he was convinced by SAF to return to Old Trafford as their golden boy. I think the presence of Ronaldo in the squad gave hope to the fans and that raised their expectations, they were probably thinking they would return to the Manchester United of old. So when they were not getting positive results, they turned on their golden boy.

You’re right, I don’t think ETH and Ronaldo were a good match. I’m glad he left United, there’s nothing he could have done for that team. ETH was given the opportunity to get his own squad together and we can see how well that is going.

Don't get too emotional about Ronaldo, Erik ten Hag and Manchester United drama, it's just for entertainment. All three parties are to blame for the poor relationship between the coach and Ronaldo. Ronaldo wouldn't have criticised the club openly, he was remarketing them. Don't forget that United is a business brand and he receives his pay from them. His negative comments about the club can scare away investors from partnering with them .

The coach was also at fault because he failed to give a legend like Ronaldo the special treatment he deserves. He should know that most of the best coaches in the world developed the skills of managing players like Ronaldo. Lastly, the management of the club will take some part of the plan for forcing Ronaldo on the coach. He told the club that the Portuguese captain didn't fit in his style of play. They would have sought means to let the striker leave instead of allowing him to remain in the club.

[EL MOHA]

Ronaldo didn’t lie about Manchester United in his interview with Piers Morgan. It is my opinion that Manchester United were the ones who disrespected Ronaldo. Manchester United fans came up with the “Ronaldo is blocking the progress of Rashford and Martial.“ How many premier league goals have they scored since Ronaldo left the club? Has any United player under ETH surpassed Ronaldo’s 17 premier league goals? No! Martial left the club on a free transfer after earning over £200k at Manchester United. So what’s the misinformation you are talking about? This is football, our opinions cannot be the same on these matters but I don’t misinform anyone to make a point.

First of all this Ronaldo Saga with Manchester United is always growing and it has divided the Fans but the truth still remains that even if Ronaldo was right airing such comments on public TV was definitely a wrong move and piers Morgan was definitely getting him into trouble, Ronaldo is a Manchester United legend and could have done better to air his opinion, i don’t know how you want to put it but Manchester United didn’t disrespect him and that’s why they peacefully terminated that contact which was a good way to path ways, you don’t expect him to be back into the club after saying those things even if they are true the channel it was wrong.

As for him blocking the progress of martial and Rashford i didn’t see this been raise rather what was said was that Manchester United played different with Ronaldo in the team, the game plan was to create chances for him as that was only way to accommodate Ronaldo and this wasn’t even a false claim because Solkjaer confirmed it him self, he even said players like Cavani were not having regular or enough playing time due to Ronaldo arrival. One thing I say is Ronaldo return was the biggest mistake both the player and the club made then. It even cost Manchester United the progress they were having under OLE