Buy Buy Buy or Sell Sell Sell?

[uswa56]

Deciding to buy it when conditions are experiencing a downturn, of course this will make us profit when prices increase again, but we must be able to use funds that we can hold for a long period of time and don't let us not hold onto any money in the hope that it will If we can get quick profits, of course this will be detrimental to us when we decide to buy in large quantities and we cannot afford to hold on for a long period of time.

You are right, we don't have to wait for a decline if we really want to collect Bitcoin and also we can't know very well when the price is really at its lowest and I agree with you that it would be better if we could buy whenever we have more funds and can hold in long period of time.

If you want to take this step, you must divide your funds into two to three parts. One part is used for long term folding, second part you buy dip, and third part you keep for emergency fund. Because the more bitcoins you receive, the more benefits you will receive. 
Of course it should be invested for the long term, you may get more benefits in the short term and face losses later on. But be sure to watch yourself and buy more dips, so that you will be able to reap the maximum benefit when the bull market arrives later.

Dividing several portions of the funds we have to invest is a very good plan so that we can carry out investments without having any disturbances, because if we do not have proper planning when carrying out investments of course it will be very difficult for us to make a profit from carrying out investments. investments and we may even experience losses from these investments.

I agree with you, it would be better to maintain investment in the long term and as you said we have to be very careful when buying during a downturn and don't let us be unable to maintain investment in the long term and wait for profits when prices increase.

[Reincarnated Sat]

[edited out]

I think the only assessment to no if someone has accumulated more than enough Bitcoin is if you have three-and-a-half to six times your pre retirement gross income in bitcoin or if you have accumulated more than expectation, I think we should not just bring to ourselves what we think we be the assessment the one I wrote is just my opinion and I think there should be an official assessment for this in Bitcoin investment.

I think that one of the mistakes that people make is not having enough, and if you plan to have ONLY 3-6 times your needed annual expenses, then you seem to be thinking about cashing out principle and interest, which I would not consider to be sustainable.. even though it is possible with bitcoin 3-6 times could still work out, but it is problematic in terms of how it is going to end up withdrawing principle and not going to be sustainable (from my point of view).

In traditional investments, there is a presumption of being able to sustainably withdraw 4% per year, and so if you have 20-30 years worth of income, that 4% per year should work for you.

Yet, I personally speculate that somewhere close to 10% could be sustainable, which would mean that you ONLY need to have around 10 years worth of your annual expenses for your 10% withdrawal rate to be sustainable.

Of course, each person needs to make their own assessments, and I personally assess the value of my BTC based on the 200-WMA rather than based on spot price, which likely gives an additional cushion of not getting into withdrawal status prior to having eniough.

Yeah I agree with you not having enough is one mistake a lot of people have some don't even know or understand when they have enough or not and that is why you see them selling of there Bitcoin and later regret.
Reason from your point of view the yeah The three-and-a-half to six times your pre retirement gross income in bitcoin may be problematic and that is why it is always advised to seek for other people's opinion and evaluate it and then chose which is better, one can still decide after evaluation to take his own idea or that of others and that one of the main reasons I love this forum we share ideas.

You said one ONLY need to have around 10 years worth of your annual expenses for your 10% withdrawal rate to be sustainable, and I ask what is the person's weekly or monthly salary is small maybe just $100 or $200 a month will this advice still go.
Well for me I think one's salary and how much he or she invest on Bitcoin weekly or monthly using the DCA strategy plays a very important role when it comes to reaching a rate to be sustainable because if for example I'm investing on $10 or $20 weekly or monthly on Bitcoin and another is investing $100 to $200 weekly or monthly it will have different time for reaching a rate to be sustainable. ( My point of view).

Yeah everyone has there own assessment and I love that you assess the value of your Bitcoin based on the 200-WMA rather than based on spot price and that is what I was saying earlier that accessing one Bitcoin by price will make you sale off your bitcoin thinking that has reached or you have accumulated enough and for me I think accessing it by price will be a big mistake anyone will do because it will always end in regret, I know was someone that once accessed his Bitcoin by price and and he also went ahead and sold everything and till date he is regretting his actions.

In my own sense I think before thinking about selling our Bitcoin we should really think about it and ask ourselves what will I stand to gain if I start selling now and what will I stand to lose if I start selling now, I think this question will help you make a good decision.

I think that the better question is whether you are able to assess your withdrawal strategy as being sustainable or not, so if you do not have enough to have a withdrawal strategy, then you have not reached a high enough BTC accumulation to begin your withdrawals.. but hey whatever you can do what you like whether it is sustainable or not.. I personally believe sustainability of your withdrawal system (amounts and do you have enough) is the key to success with your long term investing rather than ending up cashing out all of your BTC prior and then ending up with a bunch of worthless dollars or whatever was your inferior investment and/or decision to consume rather than to make sur taht you have enough prior to staring to consume.

Yeah you are correct and I agree with you, sustainability of one withdraw system helps, before one will consider withdraw he or she should first check if he or she has a sustainable withdrawal strategy and if there's no good withdraw strategy then it means one has not accumulated enough Bitcoin, this point of yours if followed very well will really help in knowing if one has accumulated enough or not.

[chigo]

-cut-
Invest based on your financial strength and don't borrow money to own more Bitcoin because when the market corrects and you invested more than your Hodling limit, you'll be panicking and probably miss out of gains you were suppose to get as you sold under pressure so it is advised as a newbie to use the DCA strategy for your accumulation journey and also try to have an emergency, reserve and float funds in other to secure your investment.

Although it is not recommended to borrow to invest in bitcoin, if you have a source of income to pay the loan and a lending platform with affordable interest, it is not a problem. Because there are cases where investors who see the opportunity to invest in bitcoin then mortgage their cars to the bank or borrow with their savings as collateral with an interest of only a few percent, and then invest the money in bitcoin, and after a while he finally gets the profit as he expected first.

The point is how you can use the debt as you expect, have the ability to pay the debt, and consider the very low interest rate, and most importantly not from loan sharks. If you can utilize debt well and have good financial management, borrowing to invest in bitcoin should not be a problem.

But why borrowing to invest in Bitcoin when you are working why not use the DCA strategy and accumulate as much as you can, from your explanation you talk like someone that trade Bitcoin and that's not a good option for me and my follow newbies, anyone coming into Bitcoin should have the mindset of long term investment, it is always advised for anyone going into Bitcoin investment to have a source of income and also have emergency, reserve and float funds in other to secure your investment when this is in place there's no need to put your self in debt all you need to do is to use the DCA strategy and start accumulating and hodling too for a long term.
Borrowing to invest in Bitcoin is a wrong idea when is only advised to borrow is when you have a very big emergency or issue and you have exhausted your emergency, reserve and float funds then you can borrow instead of dipping hands into your Bitcoin investment since you already have a steady source of income and will pay back once you receive your salary.

DCA is not the only best strategy for newbies, you can do lump sum if needed. And it seems you are a little confused about what I am saying. I am not saying that someone who has no income can take a loan and invest in bitcoin, see what I said "if you have a source of income to pay the loan and a lending platform with affordable interest, it is not a problem" you need to see what I am emphasizing there. I am talking about how someone can use debt for their bitcoin investment purposes and that is not a bad idea at all, it just depends on the skill of the person in managing their debt and see the potential of bitcoin investment in the future. If they are not sure about it, they can do accumulation or DCA and invest in the long term.

[bestcoins1]

You don’t have to divide your funds when it comes to accumulating using different strategies, from my opinion you  just have to buy and plan your accumulation process. The planning simply means your monthly or weekly plan whereby you don’t have to wait ahead of time before you start using any amount to buy, talking about emergency funds I believe this is compulsory as it’s right for every investor to build an emergency fund while accumulating bitcoin.

Emergency funds do not need to be reminded repeatedly because every investor is already very aware of this as an important thing in their own plans for any matter. As for the ways and methods that need to be used, whether it is accumulating Bitcoin every month, it always needs to be applied for those who like to collect Bitcoin by buying in every market condition. Because investors who don't like selling or who are looking to continue accumulating Bitcoin are people who haven't set a plan to sell so they will be more likely to keep buying in the way they like.

[Jewan420]

Because investors who don't like to sell or who want to continue accumulating bitcoins are people who haven't set a plan to sell they will be more likely to continue buying as they like.

Every investment should have an end, just as every chapter ends. If the investment doesn't end. There is no point in investing, I would consider it worthless. You have been investing all your life, but have not been able to enjoy the money invested. I consider such an investment futile. But I am not saying that you should end the investment too soon. You invest a certain amount and after getting your desired profit exit the investment and enjoy that money and start investing again. You can continue like this as long as you are able to generate income. Build a sizable investment fund years before you retire from your career so you can enjoy it in retirement. If you only invest all your life, that money may one day be left uninherited. Because human death comes unexpectedly.

[Sim_card]

Because investors who don't like to sell or who want to continue accumulating bitcoins are people who haven't set a plan to sell they will be more likely to continue buying as they like.

Every investment should have an end, just as every chapter ends. If the investment doesn't end. There is no point in investing, I would consider it worthless. You have been investing all your life, but have not been able to enjoy the money invested. I consider such an investment futile. But I am not saying that you should end the investment too soon. You invest a certain amount and after getting your desired profit exit the investment and enjoy that money and start investing again. You can continue like this as long as you are able to generate income. Build a sizable investment fund years before you retire from your career so you can enjoy it in retirement. If you only invest all your life, that money may one day be left uninherited. Because human death comes unexpectedly.

I disagree with you on what you said above, you are sounding more of a trader than an investor.
Let us forget about bitcoin investment and talk about the real life investment. Coca cola has being there even before I was given birth to and the company is still generating profit till date. Investment is what takes time to build and maintain it so that it can start generating profit for you.

This is how bitcoin investment is, if you buy bitcoin and you have made profit because of that you sold all your bitcoin investment believing that you will back back again. What if the price is above the price that you sold it and didn't come down for a long time, it means that you will use the money to take care of unexpected challenges that will come your way because you feel that you can get the money back before bitcoin price will dip.

You should also not forget that buying and selling is not an investment because you will regret your actions in future for chasing little profits when the price of bitcoin is very high. Don't also forget that as time passes on, the price of bitcoin keeps increasing and you will be missing from the compounding value of bitcoin assuming you are only buying. Bitcoin investment is for the future back up so that at old age you can depend on your bitcoin investment for survival by shaving little profit because you have accumulated more than enough Bitcoin.

No one says that you should not enjoy from your investment but not when the invest is not matured because you will not get a good profit it. Buying and selling is a waste of time and short sightedness of the potential of bitcoin in future. You can still pass on your bitcoin investment to your heirs which is not a bad idea. Invest in bitcoin for a long-term and hodli in order for you enjoy from your bitcoin investment.

[Jewan420]

Because investors who don't like to sell or who want to continue accumulating bitcoins are people who haven't set a plan to sell they will be more likely to continue buying as they like.

Every investment should have an end, just as every chapter ends. If the investment doesn't end. There is no point in investing, I would consider it worthless. You have been investing all your life, but have not been able to enjoy the money invested. I consider such an investment futile. But I am not saying that you should end the investment too soon. You invest a certain amount and after getting your desired profit exit the investment and enjoy that money and start investing again. You can continue like this as long as you are able to generate income. Build a sizable investment fund years before you retire from your career so you can enjoy it in retirement. If you only invest all your life, that money may one day be left uninherited. Because human death comes unexpectedly.

I disagree with you on what you said above, you are sounding more of a trader than an investor.
Let us forget about bitcoin investment and talk about the real life investment. Coca cola has being there even before I was given birth to and the company is still generating profit till date. Investment is what takes time to build and maintain it so that it can start generating profit for you.

This is how bitcoin investment is, if you buy bitcoin and you have made profit because of that you sold all your bitcoin investment believing that you will back back again. What if the price is above the price that you sold it and didn't come down for a long time, it means that you will use the money to take care of unexpected challenges that will come your way because you feel that you can get the money back before bitcoin price will dip.

You should also not forget that buying and selling is not an investment because you will regret your actions in future for chasing little profits when the price of bitcoin is very high. Don't also forget that as time passes on, the price of bitcoin keeps increasing and you will be missing from the compounding value of bitcoin assuming you are only buying. Bitcoin investment is for the future back up so that at old age you can depend on your bitcoin investment for survival by shaving little profit because you have accumulated more than enough Bitcoin.

No one says that you should not enjoy from your investment but not when the invest is not matured because you will not get a good profit it. Buying and selling is a waste of time and short sightedness of the potential of bitcoin in future. You can still pass on your bitcoin investment to your heirs which is not a bad idea. Invest in bitcoin for a long-term and hodli in order for you enjoy from your bitcoin investment.

Yes, I'm mostly wrong here. But I am looking for a way, in which I can enjoy some portion from my investment. For example, I planted a fruit tree ie it is an investment. After the tree matures, I enjoy many benefits from that tree. For example, taking oxygen, shading trees in direct sunlight, fruits and finally wood. That is, by keeping my investment infrastructure in place so that I can get some benefit out of it. Would it be possible to do so? How if possible?

[Ruttoshi]

Because investors who don't like to sell or who want to continue accumulating bitcoins are people who haven't set a plan to sell they will be more likely to continue buying as they like.

Every investment should have an end, just as every chapter ends. If the investment doesn't end. There is no point in investing, I would consider it worthless. You have been investing all your life, but have not been able to enjoy the money invested. I consider such an investment futile. But I am not saying that you should end the investment too soon. You invest a certain amount and after getting your desired profit exit the investment and enjoy that money and start investing again. You can continue like this as long as you are able to generate income. Build a sizable investment fund years before you retire from your career so you can enjoy it in retirement. If you only invest all your life, that money may one day be left uninherited. Because human death comes unexpectedly.

I disagree with you on what you said above, you are sounding more of a trader than an investor.
Let us forget about bitcoin investment and talk about the real life investment. Coca cola has being there even before I was given birth to and the company is still generating profit till date. Investment is what takes time to build and maintain it so that it can start generating profit for you.

This is how bitcoin investment is, if you buy bitcoin and you have made profit because of that you sold all your bitcoin investment believing that you will back back again. What if the price is above the price that you sold it and didn't come down for a long time, it means that you will use the money to take care of unexpected challenges that will come your way because you feel that you can get the money back before bitcoin price will dip.

You should also not forget that buying and selling is not an investment because you will regret your actions in future for chasing little profits when the price of bitcoin is very high. Don't also forget that as time passes on, the price of bitcoin keeps increasing and you will be missing from the compounding value of bitcoin assuming you are only buying. Bitcoin investment is for the future back up so that at old age you can depend on your bitcoin investment for survival by shaving little profit because you have accumulated more than enough Bitcoin.

No one says that you should not enjoy from your investment but not when the invest is not matured because you will not get a good profit it. Buying and selling is a waste of time and short sightedness of the potential of bitcoin in future. You can still pass on your bitcoin investment to your heirs which is not a bad idea. Invest in bitcoin for a long-term and hodli in order for you enjoy from your bitcoin investment.

Yes, I'm mostly wrong here. But I am looking for a way, in which I can enjoy some portion from my investment. For example, I planted a fruit tree ie it is an investment. After the tree matures, I enjoy many benefits from that tree. For example, taking oxygen, shading trees in direct sunlight, fruits and finally wood. That is, by keeping my investment infrastructure in place so that I can get some benefit out of it. Would it be possible to do so? How if possible?

Yea of course when you plant a tree, it grows and bear fruits during harvest you pluck the fruits and enjoy them but that doesn't mean that you will cut down the tree because you have plucked all the fruits and replant the tree from nursery. Instead you leave the tree to bring out more fruits when the season comes. You should also know that planting the tree and for it to grow for fruit bearing takes a very long time with watering and nursing of it.

This is the same with bitcoin investment it takes time for you to grow and build your bitcoin investment for 4-10 years and above. If you have reached the stage that you feel you have more than enough bitcoin, you can take a little profit and leave your investment to continue increasing in value from the compounding effect as bitcoin price keeps going higher. Invest with only the amount of money that you can afford to lose from your discretionary income and do this with DCA method every week or month so that you will be able to hodli for a long time and don't forget to also have emergency funds to prevent you from selling your bitcoin when it is not the right time.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

You said one ONLY need to have around 10 years worth of your annual expenses for your 10% withdrawal rate to be sustainable, and I ask what is the person's weekly or monthly salary is small maybe just $100 or $200 a month will this advice still go.

Salary is not as important as expenses, and yeah of course, when we are working with such small numbers it might be more difficult to create a realistic scenario, since presumptively someone who is investing is going to have expenses that are less than his current income, yet sometimes it is not bad to error on the upside in terms of how much you think that you need to make sure that you are covered, since no one is going to rescue you, feel sorry for you or take the blame if you fuck up your amounts and you pull your personal fuck you lever too soon  So, ultimately you have to make sure that you have enough....   

So if your income varies between $100 to $200, then maybe it averages around $150 per month.  How much do you have left over?  What are your conditions of livelihood?  Do you want to more or less continue with your already existing standard of living?  Even if we go with $200 per month, that is only $2,400 per year, so if we have a 10% withdrawal rate, then that would be $24,000 as enough, and since I am measuring from the 200 WMA, so currently that $24k valuation would be right around 0.663 BTC.  https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy

I will admit that I am a bit uncomfortable with working such small numbers, since I am expecting something like a withdrawal of $200 per month to be a pretty low withdrawal rate, and of course, my projection is that with bitcoin, if you manage your matters well, you are going to be able to withdraw at higher levels in the future or at least that your bitcoin holdings will still continue to grow at least to the cost of living (debasement of the dollar or whatever fiat currency you are living with), even with annual 10% withdrawal rate.

Well for me I think one's salary and how much he or she invest on Bitcoin weekly or monthly using the DCA strategy plays a very important role when it comes to reaching a rate to be sustainable because if for example I'm investing on $10 or $20 weekly or monthly on Bitcoin and another is investing $100 to $200 weekly or monthly it will have different time for reaching a rate to be sustainable. ( My point of view).

Sure.  The more you invest, then the faster you will be able to reach your levels, and so if a person is investing 10% of his income, then it is going to take 10 years to reach 1 years worth of income invested, yet if that same person is investing 25%, it is only going to take 4 years to reach 1 years worth of income invested, and surely you are making a good point that if a person retains reasonably low expenses, then he might be able to invest his whole level of his expenses in one year, which would likely end up causing the need for a lower amount of time to reach 10 years worth of income (expenses) being invested into bitcoin... so yeah, if the guy considers his level of expenses to be sustainable and even maybe to modestly go up and he can account for how his expenses will go up, then surely, he would be able to get to a point that he can start to withdraw bitcoin to cover his expenses and also to account for his stash maintaining its value sufficiently that his withdrawal rate is sustainable forever into the future.

Yeah everyone has there own assessment and I love that you assess the value of your Bitcoin based on the 200-WMA rather than based on spot price and that is what I was saying earlier that accessing one Bitcoin by price will make you sale off your bitcoin thinking that has reached or you have accumulated enough and for me I think accessing it by price will be a big mistake anyone will do because it will always end in regret, I know was someone that once accessed his Bitcoin by price and and he also went ahead and sold everything and till date he is regretting his actions.

Yep.. spot price is going to leave too much erraticness and likely overassessing the value of your holdings.. so trying to measure from bottom prices seems to be a more solid approach to BTC value assessment

In my own sense I think before thinking about selling our Bitcoin we should really think about it and ask ourselves what will I stand to gain if I start selling now and what will I stand to lose if I start selling now, I think this question will help you make a good decision.

I think that the better question is whether you are able to assess your withdrawal strategy as being sustainable or not, so if you do not have enough to have a withdrawal strategy, then you have not reached a high enough BTC accumulation to begin your withdrawals.. but hey whatever you can do what you like whether it is sustainable or not.. I personally believe sustainability of your withdrawal system (amounts and do you have enough) is the key to success with your long term investing rather than ending up cashing out all of your BTC prior and then ending up with a bunch of worthless dollars or whatever was your inferior investment and/or decision to consume rather than to make sur taht you have enough prior to staring to consume.

Yeah you are correct and I agree with you, sustainability of one withdraw system helps, before one will consider withdraw he or she should first check if he or she has a sustainable withdrawal strategy and if there's no good withdraw strategy then it means one has not accumulated enough Bitcoin, this point of yours if followed very well will really help in knowing if one has accumulated enough or not.

If you don't have enough and you start to withdraw from it, at some point down the road, you are going to realize that you are fucked because your bitcoin holdings is not holding value well enough to sustain your withdrawals (or alternatively, you have to lessen your withdrawal rate until your holdings are going to grow), and so in either case, you might well conclude that you made a mistake when you star your withdrawal based on an erroneous assessment of having enough when you don't.

So, my earlier example of 0.663 BTC amount will likely support something like a $200 per month withdrawal rate forever (and including being able to increase the amount with the likely increases in the cost of living (debasement of the dollar and other fiat currencies)... so if you need a higher income, then you need to figure out ways to make sure that your BTC stash is large enough.

It is possible that you might come to differing calculations than me, including that you believe that you don't need as much, and surely those are likely discretionary decisions in which any of us might end up being wrong, yet I personally would like to make the mistake of having too much rather than too little.. yet we also have to be careful in our having too much too.. since sometimes we might believe that we need more than we do.. so we could make errors in our assessment in either direction of not having enough or alternatively having too much.. and needless delaying of our pulling of the fuck you lever.

[I_Anime]

Because investors who don't like to sell or who want to continue accumulating bitcoins are people who haven't set a plan to sell they will be more likely to continue buying as they like.

Every investment should have an end, just as every chapter ends. If the investment doesn't end. There is no point in investing, I would consider it worthless. You have been investing all your life, but have not been able to enjoy the money invested. I consider such an investment futile. But I am not saying that you should end the investment too soon. You invest a certain amount and after getting your desired profit exit the investment and enjoy that money and start investing again. You can continue like this as long as you are able to generate income. Build a sizable investment fund years before you retire from your career so you can enjoy it in retirement. If you only invest all your life, that money may one day be left uninherited. Because human death comes unexpectedly.

I disagree with you on what you said above, you are sounding more of a trader than an investor.
Let us forget about bitcoin investment and talk about the real life investment. Coca cola has being there even before I was given birth to and the company is still generating profit till date. Investment is what takes time to build and maintain it so that it can start generating profit for you.

This is how bitcoin investment is, if you buy bitcoin and you have made profit because of that you sold all your bitcoin investment believing that you will back back again. What if the price is above the price that you sold it and didn't come down for a long time, it means that you will use the money to take care of unexpected challenges that will come your way because you feel that you can get the money back before bitcoin price will dip.

You should also not forget that buying and selling is not an investment because you will regret your actions in future for chasing little profits when the price of bitcoin is very high. Don't also forget that as time passes on, the price of bitcoin keeps increasing and you will be missing from the compounding value of bitcoin assuming you are only buying. Bitcoin investment is for the future back up so that at old age you can depend on your bitcoin investment for survival by shaving little profit because you have accumulated more than enough Bitcoin.

No one says that you should not enjoy from your investment but not when the invest is not matured because you will not get a good profit it. Buying and selling is a waste of time and short sightedness of the potential of bitcoin in future. You can still pass on your bitcoin investment to your heirs which is not a bad idea. Invest in bitcoin for a long-term and hodli in order for you enjoy from your bitcoin investment.

Yes, I'm mostly wrong here. But I am looking for a way, in which I can enjoy some portion from my investment. For example, I planted a fruit tree ie it is an investment. After the tree matures, I enjoy many benefits from that tree. For example, taking oxygen, shading trees in direct sunlight, fruits and finally wood. That is, by keeping my investment infrastructure in place so that I can get some benefit out of it. Would it be possible to do so? How if possible?

At first base on what I've learned from Sir JayJuanGee, the only time that's right for one to think of taken profit from his bitcoin investment is when one has gotten far with his bitcoin accumulation (hitting his accumulation goal) or having enough Bitcoin, after accumulating with different methods over  a certain period of time , because if one just start his Accumulation journey and decided to be taken profits always . As a form of emergency funds, he or she will reduce the growth of that investment, and in the end they may endup messing up with their investment.

So is better to exercise patient with your investment, and maybe when you have gotten some nice Stashes you can thing of taken profit from it . Because if you continue selling you may not have the opportunity to buy back at that same low price you purchase it before. So to be in a safer side is better to hodl

[Felicity_Tide]

Although it is not recommended to borrow to invest in bitcoin, if you have a source of income to pay the loan and a lending platform with affordable interest, it is not a problem. Because there are cases where investors who see the opportunity to invest in bitcoin then mortgage their cars to the bank or borrow with their savings as collateral with an interest of only a few percent, and then invest the money in bitcoin, and after a while he finally gets the profit as he expected first.

The point is how you can use the debt as you expect, have the ability to pay the debt, and consider the very low interest rate, and most importantly not from loan sharks. If you can utilize debt well and have good financial management, borrowing to invest in bitcoin should not be a problem.

This strategy of yours sounds so pleasant, but it's not ideal to carry out such action. Borrowing to invest isn't proper in any sense, as it has a way of destabilizing ones financial life. Imagine after investing with the borrowed money, then you get paid in your work, instead of making proper plans on how to spend the money, you first start by repaying the borrowed loan with interest. So, In a proper sense, you should invest what you have, and not you borrowing at all time to invest before paying back.

This is why we encourage the DCA strategy, where an investor chooses a certain amount as investment funds, for a certain number of days or weeks, but it must be done continually, so as to buy and accumulate good amounts for the period of investment. You can choose to invest $20 every two weeks or month. It depends on how much you can invest and when you can invest it.

[Frankolala]

-cut-
Invest based on your financial strength and don't borrow money to own more Bitcoin because when the market corrects and you invested more than your Hodling limit, you'll be panicking and probably miss out of gains you were suppose to get as you sold under pressure so it is advised as a newbie to use the DCA strategy for your accumulation journey and also try to have an emergency, reserve and float funds in other to secure your investment.

Although it is not recommended to borrow to invest in bitcoin, if you have a source of income to pay the loan and a lending platform with affordable interest, it is not a problem. Because there are cases where investors who see the opportunity to invest in bitcoin then mortgage their cars to the bank or borrow with their savings as collateral with an interest of only a few percent, and then invest the money in bitcoin, and after a while he finally gets the profit as he expected first.

The point is how you can use the debt as you expect, have the ability to pay the debt, and consider the very low interest rate, and most importantly not from loan sharks. If you can utilize debt well and have good financial management, borrowing to invest in bitcoin should not be a problem.

But why borrowing to invest in Bitcoin when you are working why not use the DCA strategy and accumulate as much as you can, from your explanation you talk like someone that trade Bitcoin and that's not a good option for me and my follow newbies, anyone coming into Bitcoin should have the mindset of long term investment, it is always advised for anyone going into Bitcoin investment to have a source of income and also have emergency, reserve and float funds in other to secure your investment when this is in place there's no need to put your self in debt all you need to do is to use the DCA strategy and start accumulating and hodling too for a long term.
Borrowing to invest in Bitcoin is a wrong idea when is only advised to borrow is when you have a very big emergency or issue and you have exhausted your emergency, reserve and float funds then you can borrow instead of dipping hands into your Bitcoin investment since you already have a steady source of income and will pay back once you receive your salary.

DCA is not the only best strategy for newbies, you can do lump sum if needed. And it seems you are a little confused about what I am saying. I am not saying that someone who has no income can take a loan and invest in bitcoin, see what I said "if you have a source of income to pay the loan and a lending platform with affordable interest, it is not a problem" you need to see what I am emphasizing there. I am talking about how someone can use debt for their bitcoin investment purposes and that is not a bad idea at all, it just depends on the skill of the person in managing their debt and see the potential of bitcoin investment in the future. If they are not sure about it, they can do accumulation or DCA and invest in the long term.

It is not good to borrow and invest in bitcoin even though you have an income because it will reduce your income based on the interest rate attached to it. Why are you in a rush when you can buy bitcoin whenever you get paid. This is why the DCA method is there to help us buy bitcoin with the little amount of money from our discretionary income.

I only borrow money from friends families and relatives that will not add any interest rate so that it will not be a problem for me when paying back, that is if I see a dip and I want to benefit from it. Sometimes I meet my Boss at work and collect salary advance which I can use to buy bitcoin at that moment and it will be deducted from my salary bit by bit. Bitcoin price is unpredictable and borrowing to buy bitcoin might put one in regret later.

[Dailyscript]

If you don't have enough and you start to withdraw from it, at some point down the road, you are going to realize that you are fucked because your bitcoin holdings is not holding value well enough to sustain your withdrawals (or alternatively, you have to lessen your withdrawal rate until your holdings are going to grow), and so in either case, you might well conclude that you made a mistake when you star your withdrawal based on an erroneous assessment of having enough when you don't.

You're absolutely right here! There are two things that i have kept as a priority from what you have said here.

1. If my investment is not strong enough ill not withdraw because it is needed to be treated like an investment and not an ATM.

2. Never rely on one source of income if I want to tap into my investment because multiple sources of income will quickly assist in replenishing the investment once we eventually tap from it.

3. If am to withdraw my investment I should have a realistic withdrawal strategy before thinking of doing that.

This is also applicable to all investors because it won't be fair if we tamper with our investment without a proper way and unfortunately tap into it during a downturn which will make us lose potential profits in the future.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

At first base on what I've learned from Sir JayJuanGee, the only time that's right for one to think of taken profit from his bitcoin investment is when one has gotten far with his bitcoin accumulation (hitting his accumulation goal) or having enough Bitcoin, after accumulating with different methods over  a certain period of time , because if one just start his Accumulation journey and decided to be taken profits always . As a form of emergency funds, he or she will reduce the growth of that investment, and in the end they may endup messing up with their investment.

I try to be careful in regards to using absolutes, because sometimes guys can do better (at least in the short term) by taking profits, trading and gambling with their investment, so each of us has to figure out what our goals are, and surely even though sometimes, we might be able to make more short term profits by trading and/or gambling, those do not tend to be good practices overall in terms of both long term investing and putting yourself into a mindset of accumulating bitcoin, since many guys have goals to accumulate bitcoin, and sometimes they sell their bitcoin in order to buy back cheaper or they believe that they can get more bitcoin by trying to play bitcoin price waves, and so I am not going to proclaim that strategy never works, but such trading/gambling strategy is generally not a good approach to both long term investing and goals to continue to increase your bitcoin stash.

Guys have to choose for themselves including if they want to gamble and to take chances and to potentially lose their focus on accumulating BTC.

It is also difficult to tell anyone when they might have enough bitcoin or if they are in a position in which they might do something other than straight-forward DCA - which surely seems to be the best approach for guys in their first 4-10 years or when they are in their relatively earlier stages of accumulating BTC.. yet at the same time, there could be situations in which a guy might have ended up front loading his investment or overly accumulating bitcoin in one way or another, at least in the short term, so those kind of guys might be in a position to sell some BTC as the BTC price is going up... so it can be difficult to have strict rules that apply to everyone, even though many of us might realize that it takes a long time to accumulate a BTC stash, and it may also be a long time before we are able to assess ourselves as being in an overaccumulated status.

For example, it does tend to be very difficult to assess someone who might have a $50k per year status and who is accumulating bitcoin at $100 per week to have gotten himself into an overaccumulated status in less than 4 years, since after 4 years, at $100 per week) he would have had ONLY invested right around $20,800 invested which is ONLY around 1/2 of a year's salary..  so we might need some other kinds of facts to come to the conclusion that the guy might have had overaccumulated, whether he did such overaccumulation in a prudent way or if he had made some kind of an aggressive mistake in terms of how he allocated. and yeah there could be examples of the same guy who might have had front loaded his investment in the first 1-2 years (by even taking from an investment portfolio that he had), so then such a guy might end up getting into an overaccumulation status in an earlier kind of timeline than the guy who is just attempting to do aggressive weekly DCA, whether it is $100 per week or some other amount..

So is better to exercise patient with your investment, and maybe when you have gotten some nice Stashes you can thing of taken profit from it.

Taking profits sounds like trading.  Hopefully we are not devolving into that?

Because if you continue selling you may not have the opportunity to buy back at that same low price you purchase it before. So to be in a safer side is better to hodl

That plays into my own rationale, which is whenever a guy might get into a practice of selling BTC on the way up, it is better to understand that BTC as being something that you are selling and without any expectation to be able to buy back, so I still would not consider that as taking profits, even though selling on the way up could serve as a kind of hedge and/or insurance in case the price falls back down, but it hardly makes sense to get into the mindset of selling on the way up unless you are pretty much already satisfied with the size of your stash, so that if the BTC price keeps going up without correcting back down, then you have enough that you could just continue to sell on the way up and not feel that you don't have enough. 

Part of the problem with any theory about speculating that the prices might go up without correcting is that in the real world, we end up having various corrections at various points, yet without any expectations that the BTC price will go up and them come back down to the price that we had sold some BTC along the way, so from my point of view, the mere fact that the BTC price tends to correct, that still does not mean that BTC sales on the way up (if they are authorized should be made in such a way that there is any expectation to be able to buy back the sold BTC at lower prices.

If you don't have enough and you start to withdraw from it, at some point down the road, you are going to realize that you are fucked because your bitcoin holdings is not holding value well enough to sustain your withdrawals (or alternatively, you have to lessen your withdrawal rate until your holdings are going to grow), and so in either case, you might well conclude that you made a mistake when you star your withdrawal based on an erroneous assessment of having enough when you don't.

You're absolutely right here! There are two things that i have kept as a priority from what you have said here.

1. If my investment is not strong enough ill not withdraw because it is needed to be treated like an investment and not an ATM.

2. Never rely on one source of income if I want to tap into my investment because multiple sources of income will quickly assist in replenishing the investment once we eventually tap from it. 

3. If am to withdraw my investment I should have a realistic withdrawal strategy before thinking of doing that.

This is also applicable to all investors because it won't be fair if we tamper with our investment without a proper way and unfortunately tap into it during a downturn which will make us lose potential profits in the future.

I am going to mostly focus on your 3rd point and your final sentence.   The point that I was making is to attempt to make sure that you have enough and to know the limits regarding your own withdrawal system, so if you know that you need a minimum amount to survive, then you should be able to figure out what you might do during those periods in which the BTC price might be down for extended periods of time. I personally suggest to start to temper your BTC withdrawal amounts once the BTC price gets lower than 25% higher than the 200-WMA, so surely historically the BTC price had not historically stayed below the 200-WMA  for long periods of time, but it is not unrealistic for such things to happen, and so you might want to decide if you have other sources to draw from during the times in which the BTC price is low, or maybe you have already figured out that you are still able to meet your regular expenses, even if you are employing a lower withdrawal rate for 1-2 years (if BTC prices were to stay down near or below the 200-WMA for that long).  See my sustainable withdrawal ideas.

[Reincarnated Sat]

[edited out]

You said one ONLY need to have around 10 years worth of your annual expenses for your 10% withdrawal rate to be sustainable, and I ask what is the person's weekly or monthly salary is small maybe just $100 or $200 a month will this advice still go.

Salary is not as important as expenses, and yeah of course, when we are working with such small numbers it might be more difficult to create a realistic scenario, since presumptively someone who is investing is going to have expenses that are less than his current income, yet sometimes it is not bad to error on the upside in terms of how much you think that you need to make sure that you are covered, since no one is going to rescue you, feel sorry for you or take the blame if you fuck up your amounts and you pull your personal fuck you lever too soon  So, ultimately you have to make sure that you have enough....  

So if your income varies between $100 to $200, then maybe it averages around $150 per month.  How much do you have left over?  What are your conditions of livelihood?  Do you want to more or less continue with your already existing standard of living?  Even if we go with $200 per month, that is only $2,400 per year, so if we have a 10% withdrawal rate, then that would be $24,000 as enough, and since I am measuring from the 200 WMA, so currently that $24k valuation would be right around 0.663 BTC.  https://bitcoindata.science/withdrawal-strategy

I will admit that I am a bit uncomfortable with working such small numbers, since I am expecting something like a withdrawal of $200 per month to be a pretty low withdrawal rate, and of course, my projection is that with bitcoin, if you manage your matters well, you are going to be able to withdraw at higher levels in the future or at least that your bitcoin holdings will still continue to grow at least to the cost of living (debasement of the dollar or whatever fiat currency you are living with), even with annual 10% withdrawal rate.

Yeah you are right when you said that "it will be difficult when we are working with such small numbers it might be more difficult to create a realistic scenario".
There are still people being paid that low and because of that there weekly or monthly investment in Bitcoin becomes very small and there is no way one will be aggressive in his or her Bitcoin investment with that small amount as salary, I love the questions you asked in your second paragraph or point, "How much do you have left over?  What are your conditions of livelihood?". Anyone into Bitcoin investment that receives such small amount of money should think about this questions.
However a man with a good planning skill will still have a good Bitcoin investment if he continue his investment and always pray not to encounter big problems or issues that will make him spend more than his emergency funds, and I think such a person should invest and hold for a very very long time with discipline that way he will get it right.

Well for me I think one's salary and how much he or she invest on Bitcoin weekly or monthly using the DCA strategy plays a very important role when it comes to reaching a rate to be sustainable because if for example I'm investing on $10 or $20 weekly or monthly on Bitcoin and another is investing $100 to $200 weekly or monthly it will have different time for reaching a rate to be sustainable. ( My point of view).

Sure.  The more you invest, then the faster you will be able to reach your levels, and so if a person is investing 10% of his income, then it is going to take 10 years to reach 1 years worth of income invested, yet if that same person is investing 25%, it is only going to take 4 years to reach 1 years worth of income invested, and surely you are making a good point that if a person retains reasonably low expenses, then he might be able to invest his whole level of his expenses in one year, which would likely end up causing the need for a lower amount of time to reach 10 years worth of income (expenses) being invested into bitcoin... so yeah, if the guy considers his level of expenses to be sustainable and even maybe to modestly go up and he can account for how his expenses will go up, then surely, he would be able to get to a point that he can start to withdraw bitcoin to cover his expenses and also to account for his stash maintaining its value sufficiently that his withdrawal rate is sustainable forever into the future.

Yeah and I believe one with good and strong emergency, reserves and float funds and also a good pay as salary can be aggressive in his or her Bitcoin accumulation in other have more Bitcoin in a short number of years.
And to be honest I'm planning on becoming aggressive in my accumulation I feel I need to do that so I can get more Bitcoin However I need to have a good back up funds before starting.

Yeah everyone has there own assessment and I love that you assess the value of your Bitcoin based on the 200-WMA rather than based on spot price and that is what I was saying earlier that accessing one Bitcoin by price will make you sale off your bitcoin thinking that has reached or you have accumulated enough and for me I think accessing it by price will be a big mistake anyone will do because it will always end in regret, I know was someone that once accessed his Bitcoin by price and and he also went ahead and sold everything and till date he is regretting his actions.

Yep.. spot price is going to leave too much erraticness and likely overassessing the value of your holdings.. so trying to measure from bottom prices seems to be a more solid approach to BTC value assessment

Yeah, it is always good to hear from other people's opinion before carrying out something and some newbies always make mistake of doing a thing without asking or making an inquiry.

In my own sense I think before thinking about selling our Bitcoin we should really think about it and ask ourselves what will I stand to gain if I start selling now and what will I stand to lose if I start selling now, I think this question will help you make a good decision.

I think that the better question is whether you are able to assess your withdrawal strategy as being sustainable or not, so if you do not have enough to have a withdrawal strategy, then you have not reached a high enough BTC accumulation to begin your withdrawals.. but hey whatever you can do what you like whether it is sustainable or not.. I personally believe sustainability of your withdrawal system (amounts and do you have enough) is the key to success with your long term investing rather than ending up cashing out all of your BTC prior and then ending up with a bunch of worthless dollars or whatever was your inferior investment and/or decision to consume rather than to make sur taht you have enough prior to staring to consume.

Yeah you are correct and I agree with you, sustainability of one withdraw system helps, before one will consider withdraw he or she should first check if he or she has a sustainable withdrawal strategy and if there's no good withdraw strategy then it means one has not accumulated enough Bitcoin, this point of yours if followed very well will really help in knowing if one has accumulated enough or not.

If you don't have enough and you start to withdraw from it, at some point down the road, you are going to realize that you are fucked because your bitcoin holdings is not holding value well enough to sustain your withdrawals (or alternatively, you have to lessen your withdrawal rate until your holdings are going to grow), and so in either case, you might well conclude that you made a mistake when you star your withdrawal based on an erroneous assessment of having enough when you don't.

So, my earlier example of 0.663 BTC amount will likely support something like a $200 per month withdrawal rate forever (and including being able to increase the amount with the likely increases in the cost of living (debasement of the dollar and other fiat currencies)... so if you need a higher income, then you need to figure out ways to make sure that your BTC stash is large enough.

It is possible that you might come to differing calculations than me, including that you believe that you don't need as much, and surely those are likely discretionary decisions in which any of us might end up being wrong, yet I personally would like to make the mistake of having too much rather than too little.. yet we also have to be careful in our having too much too.. since sometimes we might believe that we need more than we do.. so we could make errors in our assessment in either direction of not having enough or alternatively having too much.. and needless delaying of our pulling of the fuck you lever.

That is why we need to be very careful and try to know if truly we have accumulated enough, a lot people thinks they have enough meanwhile it has not reached a good withdrawable limit.
And also from what you have said about being careful as not to have too much, well having enough will be more better than having little, a lot of people get confused on this point and that is why I always tell them okay have enough instead of having little. And yeah you are right we could make errors from our assessment and that's why we need to be very careful especially we the newbies.

[chigo]

It is not good to borrow and invest in bitcoin even though you have an income because it will reduce your income based on the interest rate attached to it. Why are you in a rush when you can buy bitcoin whenever you get paid. This is why the DCA method is there to help us buy bitcoin with the little amount of money from our discretionary income.

I only borrow money from friends families and relatives that will not add any interest rate so that it will not be a problem for me when paying back, that is if I see a dip and I want to benefit from it. Sometimes I meet my Boss at work and collect salary advance which I can use to buy bitcoin at that moment and it will be deducted from my salary bit by bit. Bitcoin price is unpredictable and borrowing to buy bitcoin might put one in regret later.

Sometimes there are some conditions where you see an opportunity but you don't have the money you can use, for example when the market is dumping, then taking out a loan with a low interest rate is a good step to buy bitcoin (since not everyone has a good boss/relative they can lend to, like your case). It's just a matter of how someone can calculate their ability to pay and how they manage their finances, because anyway in the next month they will buy bitcoin, so buying in advance using debt is not a problem. And discussing the interest, if it is still very low, I think that if you expect bitcoin profits in the future, it is not a big problem, for example, a loan of 100 USD with 5% interest, that's only 5 USD in interest, but with that 100 USD you could get more profit in bitcoin. It's just a matter of debt management skills, and many bitcoin investors have done this.

But yeah, if you can't do that, then I say again accumulation or DCA is the best option for you.

[bestcoins1]

Every investment should have an end, just as every chapter ends. If the investment doesn't end. There is no point in investing, I would consider it worthless. You have been investing all your life, but have not been able to enjoy the money invested. I consider such an investment futile. But I am not saying that you should end the investment too soon. You invest a certain amount and after getting your desired profit exit the investment and enjoy that money and start investing again. You can continue like this as long as you are able to generate income. Build a sizable investment fund years before you retire from your career so you can enjoy it in retirement. If you only invest all your life, that money may one day be left uninherited. Because human death comes unexpectedly.

Who are you teaching mate?
Do I look like a newbie who needs investment advice like that from you so you start teaching me and it's as if I don't know how to invest in Bitcoin which I've done for over eight years and still do as long as I have ability to do so. I really understand the advice you are saying because in essence you only emphasize enjoying the results of Bitcoin investment and I always enjoy that in life because it is impossible if the investment profits are not enjoyed because every human being always needs to eat and drink.

And the meaning of never stop investing is that everyone who has become an investor will always be better off if they want to stay on the Bitcoin investment path because enjoying the results is already a point that doesn't need to be discussed anymore because that is the main goal of investment. However, when it comes to enjoying the results, of course there are also considerations because every investor does not need to use up all of their investment capital except just separating the profits they have earned to continue their life and start another business by designating these profits as capital. And if you still think that every asset from investment cannot be inherited, I think that is also not right because now almost all assets can be inherited from our own family.

[red4slash]

Because investors who don't like to sell or who want to continue accumulating bitcoins are people who haven't set a plan to sell they will be more likely to continue buying as they like.

Every investment should have an end, just as every chapter ends. If the investment doesn't end. There is no point in investing, I would consider it worthless. You have been investing all your life, but have not been able to enjoy the money invested. I consider such an investment futile. But I am not saying that you should end the investment too soon. You invest a certain amount and after getting your desired profit exit the investment and enjoy that money and start investing again. You can continue like this as long as you are able to generate income. Build a sizable investment fund years before you retire from your career so you can enjoy it in retirement. If you only invest all your life, that money may one day be left uninherited. Because human death comes unexpectedly.

Hey isn't it clear that in the end almost most people are in Investing the goal is for a better future or achieving their financial freedom and I think if we talk about the final chapter about investing in bitcoin it is a logical goal that we have to think about so that there is no wasted investment here because after all everyone already has their goals here and usually having a stable financial condition in old age / retirement or getting financial freedom at the end is clearly a logical thing.

Therefore we are now competing to achieve that considering that in investing we are not only thinking about strategies that require us to be consistent in the investments we have but the destination where we will stop to create our own version of financial freedom.

[Odohu]

Because investors who don't like to sell or who want to continue accumulating bitcoins are people who haven't set a plan to sell they will be more likely to continue buying as they like.

Every investment should have an end, just as every chapter ends. If the investment doesn't end. There is no point in investing, I would consider it worthless. You have been investing all your life, but have not been able to enjoy the money invested. I consider such an investment futile. But I am not saying that you should end the investment too soon. You invest a certain amount and after getting your desired profit exit the investment and enjoy that money and start investing again. You can continue like this as long as you are able to generate income. Build a sizable investment fund years before you retire from your career so you can enjoy it in retirement. If you only invest all your life, that money may one day be left uninherited. Because human death comes unexpectedly.

Many Bitcoin investor I know want their Bitcoin investment to continue even after them. I'm one of such people because I have decided that Bitcoin is part of the legacy I will pass on to my children. If you plan to end your investment one day, it means you do not believe in continuity and that is a very bad situation to be in. Even in other business endeavors, it is always the joy of parents that their children should be able to continue their legacy that is why you see some families known for certain line of business for several generations. Such is possible with Bitcoin and many options have already been suggested on the best way to pass on Bitcoin to heirs.

I real long term HODLer of Bitcoin must start making plans of the inheritance of their Bitcoin portfolio even though they are not expecting to die any time soon. Such plans will have a way of preventing any eventuality. I know that some of the lost Bitcoins might be traceable to death of their owners without plan in place to pass it on to others of trust and importance.

[$crypto$]

Hey isn't it clear that in the end almost most people are in Investing the goal is for a better future or achieving their financial freedom and I think if we talk about the final chapter about investing in bitcoin it is a logical goal that we have to think about so that there is no wasted investment here because after all everyone already has their goals here and usually having a stable financial condition in old age / retirement or getting financial freedom at the end is clearly a logical thing.

Therefore we are now competing to achieve that considering that in investing we are not only thinking about strategies that require us to be consistent in the investments we have but the destination where we will stop to create our own version of financial freedom.

Yes everyone has different goals, there are investors targeting 20 years of investment in bitcoin and I think it can still make sense if they are able to survive for a long time, people certainly want to invest longer in bitcoin because every cycle is certain that the increase will be higher so many are competing to invest in their respective strategies.

Now investing in bitcoin is more varied:
There are those whose goal is for their children's education later.
There is also for the retirement period so that when old will not be difficult anymore.
They invest in bitcoin looking for profits every time there is a profit, then buy again in every bear market this still makes sense and they enjoy the profits they want.