NA

[jwinterm]

Can we get an official statement by MaNI if the multi algo design on coins like Myriadcoin and Digibyte is flawed also? Or is it a secret?

After looking into it extensively and much internal debate we have decided that multi-algo as it currently stands is flawed from a security perspective. While it sounds good on the surface there are some rather complex implementation issues in reality which have become apparent while looking at the code, that we are not satisfied can be solved in a reasonable way, or at least I am not confident I can solve them and I feel it is good to know your limits
I don't want to go into too much technical details but most of the flaws revolve around the fact that 'difficulty' is a somewhat arbitrary measurement, while it can be used to meaningfully compare two blocks from the same algorithm to one another, there is no real relation between the difficulties of two different algorithms. i.e. It is not really meaningful to say that a 500 difficulty Scrypt block is worth more or less than a 500 difficulty Groestl block. While it can be determined with some analysis for a specific moment in time with some work it requires a level of 'perfect information' that is not compatible with a p2p crypto currency type system, and even I as a human cannot tell you for a fact that the answer I give you now will still be the same in say six months time.
I have looked at various proposals to try and solves these issues, and what several coins have done and have found theoretical problems and flaws with all of them.

A few months ago I came to the same conclusions and eventually crafted https://github.com/digibyte/digibyte/pull/36, which removes the magic work factors and instead uses the geometric mean of all difficulties to compute work.  This greatly improves the security.

Thank you!
So 2 excellent developers came to the same conclusion and that is thet multi-pow solution is flawed (or atleast with what they are marketing with and that is that multi-pow is more secure than a single pow coin).
I will stop using this as marketing gimmick for Digibyte until this is resolved (if it can be resolved). I guess at this moment Digibyte has no extra value over Guldencoin...

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

All I see on your post history is a lot of bitching and complaining in almost every reply. Perhaps someone will dump out to your buy orders after reading this, gl it might work.

I don't think I complain unless it's warranted, and in this case it's warranted in my opinion. Also, I'm really not much of a trader, bought some NLG at ~450 and 350 sat, but I'm not even planning on selling (or buying anymore) at this point. Way to completely avoid answering any criticism and just go for the ad hominem though.

[Litesire]

Can we get an official statement by MaNI if the multi algo design on coins like Myriadcoin and Digibyte is flawed also? Or is it a secret?

After looking into it extensively and much internal debate we have decided that multi-algo as it currently stands is flawed from a security perspective. While it sounds good on the surface there are some rather complex implementation issues in reality which have become apparent while looking at the code, that we are not satisfied can be solved in a reasonable way, or at least I am not confident I can solve them and I feel it is good to know your limits
I don't want to go into too much technical details but most of the flaws revolve around the fact that 'difficulty' is a somewhat arbitrary measurement, while it can be used to meaningfully compare two blocks from the same algorithm to one another, there is no real relation between the difficulties of two different algorithms. i.e. It is not really meaningful to say that a 500 difficulty Scrypt block is worth more or less than a 500 difficulty Groestl block. While it can be determined with some analysis for a specific moment in time with some work it requires a level of 'perfect information' that is not compatible with a p2p crypto currency type system, and even I as a human cannot tell you for a fact that the answer I give you now will still be the same in say six months time.
I have looked at various proposals to try and solves these issues, and what several coins have done and have found theoretical problems and flaws with all of them.

A few months ago I came to the same conclusions and eventually crafted https://github.com/digibyte/digibyte/pull/36, which removes the magic work factors and instead uses the geometric mean of all difficulties to compute work.  This greatly improves the security.

Thank you!
So 2 excellent developers came to the same conclusion and that is thet multi-pow solution is flawed (or atleast with what they are marketing with and that is that multi-pow is more secure than a single pow coin).
I will stop using this as marketing gimmick for Digibyte until this is resolved (if it can be resolved). I guess at this moment Digibyte has no extra value over Guldencoin...

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

I am neutral on the supply change as it's not the supply that will determine the coins success. Pleasing the crypto community is also not going to determine the coins success. The alt coin community is a set size and every coin is fighting for that. Guldencoin is at least breaking into the mainstream public because it has a set focus on the Netherlands, this is the real power of country coins. It's just unfortunate this is the only real one.

[MentalCollatz]

Can we get an official statement by MaNI if the multi algo design on coins like Myriadcoin and Digibyte is flawed also? Or is it a secret?

After looking into it extensively and much internal debate we have decided that multi-algo as it currently stands is flawed from a security perspective. While it sounds good on the surface there are some rather complex implementation issues in reality which have become apparent while looking at the code, that we are not satisfied can be solved in a reasonable way, or at least I am not confident I can solve them and I feel it is good to know your limits
I don't want to go into too much technical details but most of the flaws revolve around the fact that 'difficulty' is a somewhat arbitrary measurement, while it can be used to meaningfully compare two blocks from the same algorithm to one another, there is no real relation between the difficulties of two different algorithms. i.e. It is not really meaningful to say that a 500 difficulty Scrypt block is worth more or less than a 500 difficulty Groestl block. While it can be determined with some analysis for a specific moment in time with some work it requires a level of 'perfect information' that is not compatible with a p2p crypto currency type system, and even I as a human cannot tell you for a fact that the answer I give you now will still be the same in say six months time.
I have looked at various proposals to try and solves these issues, and what several coins have done and have found theoretical problems and flaws with all of them.

A few months ago I came to the same conclusions and eventually crafted https://github.com/digibyte/digibyte/pull/36, which removes the magic work factors and instead uses the geometric mean of all difficulties to compute work.  This greatly improves the security.

Thanks, I have viewed your pull request before... It does address some of the issues, but I don't feel it addresses all of them and there are still potential problems that I'm not happy with, so I'm still not comfortable with multi algo as a general solution... Even if all these concerns are addressed I still wouldn't be 100% confident that there aren't other problems that are being missed. So while we are still discussing everything internally still I don't think we want to head towards multi really at this point...
That said it is important that things get addressed for those who are on multi algo and do feel it is the way to go, I mean it is not like they can just stop trying at this point, so do keep up the good work

I would love to hear your concerns in detail.

[Frais]

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

MaNI, the meddling assertive Guldencoin dev suggested the change to a smaller block reward. Only if the majority of the Guldencoin community agrees with the plan the changes will push through. And you better lose your trust in the Guldencoin community then, because at this moment most of the NLG users want a lower supply.

[MaNI]

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

MaNI, the meddling assertive Guldencoin dev suggested the change to a smaller block reward. Only if the majority of the Guldencoin community agrees with the plan the changes will push through. And you better lose your trust in the Guldencoin community then, because at this moment most of the NLG users want a lower supply.

Haha, I can't take all the blamecredit here, all dev decisions are based on bullyingdiscussion and whoever yells the loudestconsensus :p

[BioMike]

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

MaNI, the meddling assertive Guldencoin dev suggested the change to a smaller block reward. Only if the majority of the Guldencoin community agrees with the plan the changes will push through. And you better lose your trust in the Guldencoin community then, because at this moment most of the NLG users want a lower supply.

Absolutely  . It's also not in contrast with the original plan as laid down by Rijk, au contraire, he suggested that eventually we are supposed to arrive at a value that is close to the old guilder, so therefore lowering the supply fits within the guidelines of Guldencoin. I have trust in the devs BECAUSE they interfere when necessary. 

1) Intrinsic value doesn't change, when that increases you could more easily overshoot the gulden price (and possibly larger swings on the market). You could overcome some of these problems by keeping the total amount fixed, but the fact is this adoption creates problems of it own.
2) This interference isn't necessary. It is that people don't trust the "marktwerking" (supply and demand) that is in play or would rather want to have the price pumped to a specific level by reducing the supply.

[BioMike]

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

MaNI, the meddling assertive Guldencoin dev suggested the change to a smaller block reward. Only if the majority of the Guldencoin community agrees with the plan the changes will push through. And you better lose your trust in the Guldencoin community then, because at this moment most of the NLG users want a lower supply.

Absolutely  . It's also not in contrast with the original plan as laid down by Rijk, au contraire, he suggested that eventually we are supposed to arrive at a value that is close to the old guilder, so therefore lowering the supply fits within the guidelines of Guldencoin. I have trust in the devs BECAUSE they interfere when necessary. 

1) Intrinsic value doesn't change, when that increases you could more easily overshoot the gulden price (and possibly larger swings on the market). You could overcome some of these problems by keeping the total amount fixed, but the fact is this adoption creates problems of it own.
2) This interference isn't necessary. It is that people don't trust the "marktwerking" (supply and demand) that is in play or would rather want to have the price pumped to a specific level by reducing the supply.

Sometimes the market needs a little helping hand 

I don't see any disagreements. I'll know what to do.

[jwinterm]

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

MaNI, the meddling assertive Guldencoin dev suggested the change to a smaller block reward. Only if the majority of the Guldencoin community agrees with the plan the changes will push through. And you better lose your trust in the Guldencoin community then, because at this moment most of the NLG users want a lower supply.

Did I miss the vote? Was there a public poll taken of miners? Merchants accepting NLG? Or is this just based off of 5-10 guys circlejerking on internet forums?

[Dutchyyy]

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

MaNI, the meddling assertive Guldencoin dev suggested the change to a smaller block reward. Only if the majority of the Guldencoin community agrees with the plan the changes will push through. And you better lose your trust in the Guldencoin community then, because at this moment most of the NLG users want a lower supply.

Did I miss the vote? Was there a public poll taken of miners? Merchants accepting NLG? Or is this just based off of 5-10 guys circlejerking on internet forums?

Besides btc talk you need to look at the 2 different forums. official and community forum.I only browse those forums but lots of activity on them.

[thsminer]

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

MaNI, the meddling assertive Guldencoin dev suggested the change to a smaller block reward. Only if the majority of the Guldencoin community agrees with the plan the changes will push through. And you better lose your trust in the Guldencoin community then, because at this moment most of the NLG users want a lower supply.

Is that a fact or an assumption? How was the concensus measured? The largest wallets? The biggest yellers? A poll? What about people that hold or mine NLG and do not wish to post on a forum? I'm against fiddling with the coinspecs mainstream, it wil be used against the coin for years.

[Frais]

Is that a fact or an assumption? How was the concensus measured?

That's my own conclusion after counting the votes in the several forum threads (thread 1 & thread 2) about this subject.

What about people that hold or mine NLG and do not wish to post on a forum?

What about them? If there are people who decide to don't be a part of an active community, whose problem is that? If you want to be heard, you have to stand up.

[Litesire]

The extra value that Digibyte, Myriadcoin, and lots of other coins (multi-algo or not) have over Guldencoin at this point is that they don't have meddling devs trying to play the role of fed chairperson, adjusting the total number of coins and emission rate well after the coin has been launched. For some reason this seems even worse to me in the context of a 10% premine...

MaNI, the meddling assertive Guldencoin dev suggested the change to a smaller block reward. Only if the majority of the Guldencoin community agrees with the plan the changes will push through. And you better lose your trust in the Guldencoin community then, because at this moment most of the NLG users want a lower supply.

Is that a fact or an assumption? How was the concensus measured? The largest wallets? The biggest yellers? A poll? What about people that hold or mine NLG and do not wish to post on a forum? I'm against fiddling with the coinspecs mainstream, it wil be used against the coin for years.

I am neutral because it doesn't matter what the supply is, the coins success won't be judged on this, a better question to ask is what will peoples motivation be if the price falls under 100 should this bitcoin rally go to 500? My bottom of 230 was calculated on a bitcoin price of 250 and under, this scenario changes drastically as the btc price carries on increasing. Well you could end up losing half your community while the supply inflates to around a billion and you losing more users. Really who gives a fuck what the crypto community think if they really wanted guldencoin wouldn't they be invested in it already. No they clearly coming here because they feel threatened by this change.

I have to admit something, I was planning to sell all my NLG to go to bytecent as I like the fact bytecent has constant reward and the reward is low. Chris is doing a good job there, guldencoin is my favourite alt but I was losing hope because of the over supply. So I am sticking around for the long term knowing this team has the coins best interests in mind and prepared to make tough choices for the good of the coin. Well done!

[investeerder]

LTEX said it best. Shock and horror that I agree with him but he is right. I am a businessman and people want to back winners, over supply is a capitalization destroyer and that is not good for business.

I do like the proposed change and I think you are right that it can't hurt to act upon new insights now that we have passed some learning curves. Change is not something to fear, as long as it's thought through.

https://community.guldencoin.com/t/belangrijk-guldencoin-100-switching-gears/1126/19

[Jero]

LTEX said it best. Shock and horror that I agree with him but he is right. I am a businessman and people want to back winners, over supply is a capitalization destroyer and that is not good for business.

I do like the proposed change and I think you are right that it can't hurt to act upon new insights now that we have passed some learning curves. Change is not something to fear, as long as it's thought through.

https://community.guldencoin.com/t/belangrijk-guldencoin-100-switching-gears/1126/19

Indeed, finally the supply will be there but block rewards will be adjusted over time to meet our goals the best way possible. Insight comes over time and cannot be overseen from before, that's why the founder suggested this change on the official Guldencoin forum https://community.guldencoin.com/t/belangrijk-guldencoin-100-switching-gears/1126

[jwinterm]

So with decrease in supply what will premine end up being? 15% of all coins? 20%? And still no concrete or even general plans on how they (premine coins) will be distributed?

[BioMike]

So with decrease in supply what will premine end up being? 15% of all coins? 20%? And still no concrete or even general plans on how they (premine coins) will be distributed?

Well, in the long run it will move towards 0% (no halving of the block rewards any more, so infinite NLG). From what I get with this discussion is that game rules will be changed contentiously and there are no guarantees for the future. NLG will also be worth less over time.

[Jero]

So with decrease in supply what will premine end up being? 15% of all coins? 20%? And still no concrete or even general plans on how they (premine coins) will be distributed?

Premine will be the same because the total supply will be the same. The premine will be spend on projects for Guldencoin like advertsing, developing new services etc etc... A small part is allready spend on stuff like this through CPF (community projects funding). So in this case Guldencoin has a very nice supply for funding her own projects!

[Jero]

So with decrease in supply what will premine end up being? 15% of all coins? 20%? And still no concrete or even general plans on how they (premine coins) will be distributed?

Well, in the long run it will move towards 0% (no halving of the block rewards any more, so infinite NLG). From what I get with this discussion is that game rules will be changed contentiously and there are no guarantees for the future. NLG will also be worth less over time.

You should know better BioMike. Please address your frustration somewhere else.

The game rules are set by the community not by one or two individuals. if youre not pleased with the way things go you can start a healthy discussion instead of this FUD.

[Fedoracoins]

next week i will buy 1m nlg

[MaNI]

So with decrease in supply what will premine end up being? 15% of all coins? 20%? And still no concrete or even general plans on how they (premine coins) will be distributed?

Well, in the long run it will move towards 0% (no halving of the block rewards any more, so infinite NLG). From what I get with this discussion is that game rules will be changed contentiously and there are no guarantees for the future. NLG will also be worth less over time.

Perhaps you should read what was proposed again, the above is not what was proposed.

Essentially:
1) Instead of a large upfront reward that halves periodically there will be a constant reward that continues for a long period of time
2) The total eventual number of coins will remain the same.
i.e. When the total number of coins is reached the reward will still drop to 0, it will just do this without repeated halving that create market panic and other problems but instead in a constant more natural fashion, that allows coins to be better distributed instead of all accumulating to early adopters.