These new EFFICIENT x11 algos everyone is talking about ?? BULLSHIT or real?

[AlexGR]

Cryptohunter, let's cut the bullshit and please just tell us which coin you own and that you would advise others to buy so that you can enjoy your pump. The "this algo stinks", "this coin is a scam" etc are just the ritual for getting there. So let's just get to the end and bypass the ritual...

Tell us:

What coins do you own?
What do you advise others to buy (directly, not descriptively so that we can "figure it out")?

[cryptohunter]

I own so many coins and spend so much time reading and learning that I cant get to all the threads. I do know that Charlie Lee was going off the other day, and it caused me concern. All I know is Every thread has cheerleaders and haters. I am playing ALTCOIN roulette, because I have no idea who will be standing when most of these shitcoins die. VERTCOIN, DARKCOIN, QUARK, BLACKCOIN, HEAVYCOIN, COUNTERPARTY, PRIMECOIN, and a shit load of crapcoins. I own them all. All of them are flawed. Im lucky to have the resources to buy them. I am an investor still learning. I do know that there is a coin coming and when it does come we will all know it as the ONE! For now, we go with what we have. I hope you find out your answers. I welcome it, even though you are a little militant in your approach. Good luck, and I`ll say it again. Ask the Dev from Darkcoin. He is there all the time. Cheers.

Thanks very much, yes i am in the same position as yourself buying and mining away on all sort of coins. Nobody really knows which will have the most positive returns or stand above the others, perhaps none will and btc will remain at the top.

Let's await anyway as yet perhaps some technically minded people will come soon and seriously do a strict comparison of all the algos both their pro's and cons backed by hard evidence and we will know if it is good idea to put all our eggs in the x11 basket.

So long as persons only post the truth and things they can back up then i see no reason for this discussion to veer of into a train wreck... let's not discuss coins because it is hard for some not to become upset if they feel their investment is under threat. I own not a lot of lots and lots of coins so really it makes little difference to me one coin seems to go down another goes up then back the other way, actually my exchange balances only move only a tiny bit up and down each day since it is spread so thinly over so many coins. Not a great investment plan i guess since never going to make a lot of gains that way.

[cryptohunter]

Cryptohunter, let's cut the bullshit and please just tell us which coin you own and that you would advise others to buy so that you can enjoy your pump. The "this algo stinks", "this coin is a scam" etc are just the ritual for getting there. So let's just get to the end and bypass the ritual...

Tell us:

What coins do you own?
What do you advise others to buy (directly, not descriptively so that we can "figure it out")?

Well i own about 100 coins... so difficult for me to pump them all at once... i have mined nearly every single coin on launch and for some reason neglect to sell them.

Don't try to derail this thread. It is not to focus on a single coin.

X11 - does it have any clear advantages over what we had before or not... so far NOT.

It is simple no need to try and muddy the waters with pumps dumps, fair not fair. I have responded to those discussions only. This thread is for x11 only the algo chain itself...not an individual coin.

I'm sure you can check my post history to see which coins i have previous recommended ... or which i see as good safe bets. Besides my opinion is my opinion only what does that matter regarding investing ...

LOL the funniest part is drk coin was on my list of reasonable investments i would usually quote....go back and check for yourself.

There is no reason quite a few coins can not exist together. Sure may not all of the 100 coins i own are going to make it big but as long as they were fair or i didn't notice they were unfair i for the most part have just kept everything... bit of a hoarder like that.

Anyway i'm not here to discuss coin investments, i am here to examine x11. That is it.

[reRaise]

I think Cryptohunter is doing a good job trying to shine some light on what's true, what's overhyped or underhyped before himself and others risk money on it. As you see his has to ask the questions over and over which some just ignore.

[cryptohunter]

I think Cryptohunter is doing a good job trying to shine some light on what's true, what's overhyped or underhyped before himself and others risk money on it. As you see his has to ask the questions over and over which some just ignore.

thanks yes exactly....

many people have worked hard buying and mining scrypt coins for months on end....whilst i appreciate x11 could prevent asics and add some security advantages let's be 100% sure that it is the best option before pushing all coins that way.  I get worried when i see LTC and doge discussions about x11... the new wave of coins coming out with x11 isn't as bad since you know what you are getting into when you mine it , but changing algos is different.

I can't yet from this thread see how x11 became so popular? i mean not 1 certain advantage over all algos we had already? it is pure marketing so far then?? this is crazy... what are people thinking about asking to move ltc and doge to this algo when they can't provide any reason for choosing it. Seems insane.

[AlexGR]

Cryptohunter, let's cut the bullshit and please just tell us which coin you own and that you would advise others to buy so that you can enjoy your pump. The "this algo stinks", "this coin is a scam" etc are just the ritual for getting there. So let's just get to the end and bypass the ritual...

Tell us:

What coins do you own?
What do you advise others to buy (directly, not descriptively so that we can "figure it out")?

Well i own about 100 coins... so difficult for me to pump them all at once... i have mined nearly every single coin on launch and for some reason neglect to sell them.

Don't try to derail this thread. It is not to focus on a single coin.

You already have your mind made up and you pretend to ask in order to be informed so that you can end up repeating your own pre-formed conclusions.

X11 - does it have any clear advantages over what we had before or not... so far NOT.

1) Less energy for GPU = happy miners
2) More secure as it doesn't rely on the integrity of a single hash. It does not have a single point of failure approach, so to speak. Otherwise quark itself, as you point out in your questions, is useless - we could all be happy with 1 hash.
3) Coins with >1 hashes are diversification tool against the risks that single-hash coins have. Whether 2 hashes or 10 hashes, it's open to individual preference.
4) CPU friendliness as the rate of acceleration is not tremendous compared to GPUs (so far). From what I see in the miner, it uses the standard crypto libraries which should be pretty efficient by themselves - as they also include a number of built in optimizations.
5) Cheaper ASICs than scrypt-type coins when the algo goes to ASIC stage (all gpu mineable hashes will get to this point if the coins are profitable), due to requiring less RAM. Cheaper ASICs = more decentralization possible.

Now, if you are a crybaby, you can always take something and spin it any way you want. For example enhanced security could be called a problem because it creates lag. Yeah I mean that's why people don't use 1 letter passwords. Sure they could login faster if they used them, but their security would be at risk. And if Bitcoin used a lesser hashtype, it would be faster but less safe. So what?

Likewise about the cpu / gpu friendliness, one can say "great this is closer to the bitcoin ideal" and another one can say "this is a botnet coin". The same is true for the GPU energy... one says "oh that's great" another one whines about the optimization level.

Anyway i'm not here to discuss coin investments, i am here to examine x11. That is it.

Yes, I'm sure you are. People in here started saying all kind of crap about "hype" and stuff, when there's been so little promotion about it. It's just that miners started finding out about the reduced power consumption in a period where scrypt profitability is borderline pathetic when contrasted with elevated electricity costs. That's all. And probably because of that, it will be adopted by another 10-20-30 coins. Who cares? Is it the best hashing algorithm that man ever invented? No. Is it ASIC proof - in that ASICs will never be developed for it? No. Is it the fastest in its verification? No. Is it fully optimized? No, since its new. Will there be other coins that branch from X11 into X12 or reverse sequence of the hashes? Yes. It actually happened since day one (chaincoin taking X11 and reversing the order of two hashes). So? Will you be here examining X12, X13 and X33 also?

And finally: Is it better than scrypt or sha256? It depends on how you define better and what your priorities are. There is no definite answer, since we do not live in a black and white world. And that also answers if it is better than Quark.

[cryptohunter]

Cryptohunter, let's cut the bullshit and please just tell us which coin you own and that you would advise others to buy so that you can enjoy your pump. The "this algo stinks", "this coin is a scam" etc are just the ritual for getting there. So let's just get to the end and bypass the ritual...

Tell us:

What coins do you own?
What do you advise others to buy (directly, not descriptively so that we can "figure it out")?

Well i own about 100 coins... so difficult for me to pump them all at once... i have mined nearly every single coin on launch and for some reason neglect to sell them.

Don't try to derail this thread. It is not to focus on a single coin.

You already have your mind made up and you pretend to ask in order to be informed so that you can end up repeating your own pre-formed conclusions.

X11 - does it have any clear advantages over what we had before or not... so far NOT.

1) Less energy for GPU = happy miners
2) More secure as it doesn't rely on the integrity of a single hash. It does not have a single point of failure approach, so to speak. Otherwise quark itself, as you point out in your questions, is useless - we could all be happy with 1 hash.
3) Coins with >1 hashes are diversification tool against the risks that single-hash coins have. Whether 2 hashes or 10 hashes, it's open to individual preference.
4) CPU friendliness as the rate of acceleration is not tremendous compared to GPUs (so far). From what I see in the miner, it uses the standard crypto libraries which should be pretty efficient by themselves - as they also include a number of built in optimizations.
5) Cheaper ASICs than scrypt-type coins when the algo goes to ASIC stage (all gpu mineable hashes will get to this point if the coins are profitable), due to requiring less RAM. Cheaper ASICs = more decentralization possible.

Now, if you are a crybaby, you can always take something and spin it any way you want. For example enhanced security could be called a problem because it creates lag. Yeah I mean that's why people don't use 1 letter passwords. Sure they could login faster if they used them, but their security would be at risk.

Likewise about the cpu / gpu friendliness, one can say "great this is closer to the bitcoin ideal" and another one can say "this is a botnet coin". The same is true for the GPU energy... one says "oh that's great" another one whines about the optimization level.

Anyway i'm not here to discuss coin investments, i am here to examine x11. That is it.

Yes, I'm sure you are. People in here started saying all kind of crap about "hype" and stuff, when there's been so little promotion about it. It's just that miners started finding out about the reduced power consumption in a period where scrypt profitability is borderline pathetic when contrasted with elevated electricity costs. That's all. And probably because of that, it will be adopted by another 10-20-30 coins. Who cares? Is it the best hashing algorithm that man ever invented? No. Is it ASIC proof - in that ASICs will never be developed for it? No. Is it the fastest in its verification? No. Is it fully optimized? No, since its new. Will there be other coins that branch from X11 into X12 or reverse sequence of the hashes? Yes. It actually happened since day one (chaincoin taking X11 and reversing the order of two hashes). So? Will you be here examining X12, X13 and X33 also?

And finally: Is it better than scrypt or sha256? It depends on how you define better and what your priorities are. There is no definite answer, since we do not live in a black and white world. And that also answers if it is better than Quark.

Firstly let's get to the MOST IMPORTANT PART of your post.Right at the end

1. is it better than the QRK algo =  NO you can not say that it is.

how do you answer more algos = more orphans?


Ok thanks that settled it.

Now then yes a lot of the other things you have brought up are interesting and true even....but essentially do not answer any of the questions we really need to know.

1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


also i would really like to engage more conversation about myriad and heavycoin.... any fans of those methods want to voice some positive things above the methods we had before.

Is myriad easy to add to i mean can they add more in without forking?
why are people not so keen on this method?

[foodies123]

please stop preaching the security of a chained algo. chained algos are only as strong as their weakest link so if one of the algost piled on top of eachother in x11 breaks the whole chain breaks.

[AlexGR]

[1. is it better than the QRK algo =  NO you can not say that it is.

how do you answer more algos = more orphans?

DRK has like 2.5m block and QRK has, what? 30 secs? And your problem is the hash type? Seriously?  

Ok thanks that settled it.

Now then yes a lot of the other things you have brought up are interesting and true even....but essentially do not answer any of the questions we really need to know.

"We"? LOL. Yes, I'm sure there's a crowd out there waiting to hear that x11 can split the Nile water in two.

[AlexGR]

please stop preaching the security of a chained algo. chained algos are only as strong as their weakest link so if one of the algost piled on top of eachother in x11 breaks the whole chain breaks.

So Quark is 6 times more vulnerable than, say, Bitcoin?

[cryptohunter]

please stop preaching the security of a chained algo. chained algos are only as strong as their weakest link so if one of the algost piled on top of eachother in x11 breaks the whole chain breaks.

So Quark is 6 times more vulnerable than, say, Bitcoin?

Well yes if that is true it is true...but then x11 is 11 times more vulnerable.

Stop side tracking to coins specifically.

the block time of dark being longer gives longer attack time or not? i don't know?


All you need to do is give one ONE benefit of x11 that clearly goes beyond what no other algo we have had before offers? it really can't get any more simple than that.

State it hear just one simple line of text explaining something about x11 that puts it clearly above all other methods. Then we can analyse it. If true then x11 is the one to go for.

[foodies123]

please stop preaching the security of a chained algo. chained algos are only as strong as their weakest link so if one of the algost piled on top of eachother in x11 breaks the whole chain breaks.

So Quark is 6 times more vulnerable than, say, Bitcoin?

I am not aware of quark's basics but if it has 6 chained algos then yeah ... it is.

[iopq]

please stop preaching the security of a chained algo. chained algos are only as strong as their weakest link so if one of the algost piled on top of eachother in x11 breaks the whole chain breaks.

how come? I thought it was the opposite, since if you can break say the first algo you still have 10 rounds of hashing to do so it's not a huge speed up anyway

[eduffield]

For me it's a personal obligation to fight people like you,
who try to dumb down the general public with disinformation and cheap propaganda phrases.

You are at a disadvantage, because the average poster here is already quite informed and has a good perception of being Mickey Moused by agents like you.

Get lost.

This is absolutely not true. Most of the people posting here are without any tecnical or economical insight. They are attracted by fancy words and follows the herd bleating what they have read (but not understood) around the forum. Spending their money on obvious scams like earthcoin and darkcoin, coins in general that do extremly well at promoting and branding.  

What does Earthcoin matter here now, please enlighten me.
Just a fuck of a crap coin.

Darkcoin is the bleeding edge of crypto currencies though.
Tell me what you mean with your statement.

I mention earthcoin because everyone can see that earthcoin are a scam now, and the same will be true for darkcoin in a few months. Erthcoin is similar to darkcoin, not technically, but from a community perspective. Both coins rallied the sheeps with a grand plan and fancy words.

Darkcoin claimes to be the first anonymous coin. That is not true and it will not happen. Darkcoin promote itself as a zero premined coin. That is true, but it is designed to be extremly instamined and if you look at the block explorer you will see that the instamine is around 14% of the total coins. More then 75% of the exicting coins is instamined by devs/early adopters. There have also been alot of posts about the x11 and "cool cards" that adds to the hype. Darksend, x11, dgw, zero premine, everything the community preach and believe to be facts are actually not as good as they seem or completely true.

Hi, I'm the developer of Darkcoin. You can go download the beta client right now and send decentralized anonymous transactions. So yeah, it's the first anonymous coin. If everyone used beta, the whole blockchain would be anonymous.

X11 does indeed run 30 degrees colder than scrypt, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about there. DGW reacts faster and more effectively to whales joining because I used exponential moving averages which are just better for this type of thing, again not sure what you're talking about.

See DGW in action here: http://drk.poolhash.org/graph.html

I also fixed the timewarp exploit, so it's the only safe algorithm currently (for difficulty adjustment every block).

The next big thing in Darkcoin land are MasterNodes, you'll hear about people running a specific type of client and making tons of money in exchange for anonymizing transactions of the network (again, the anonymous transactions exist...)

[zerodrama]

X11 does indeed run 30 degrees colder than scrypt, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about there. DGW reacts faster and more effectively to whales joining because I used exponential moving averages which are just better for this type of thing, again not sure what you're talking about.

I can run 30 degrees colder doing nothing as well. That's the point. You pay $500 for a 1 Mh/s scrypt GPU and I pay $500 for 1 Mh/s scrypt GPU. I get a miner that gets 33% more of the total hashes than you do so I am getting twice as many hashes (66% / 33% = 2x).

We have the same hardware. We have 2 different miners but I claim the one I gave you is the best when in fact it's not. Not only that, suppose my miner is 15 degrees warmer. That's still 15 degrees cooler and I am getting 2x the performance as you.

Point is, if there's less heat, then your card isn't working as hard as it can. Basic science.

[Kai Proctor]

X11 does indeed run 30 degrees colder than scrypt, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about there. DGW reacts faster and more effectively to whales joining because I used exponential moving averages which are just better for this type of thing, again not sure what you're talking about.

I can run 30 degrees colder doing nothing as well. That's the point. You pay $500 for a 1 Mh/s scrypt GPU and I pay $500 for 1 Mh/s scrypt GPU. I get a miner that gets 33% more of the total hashes than you do so I am getting twice as many hashes (66% / 33% = 2x).

We have the same hardware. We have 2 different miners but I claim the one I gave you is the best when in fact it's not. Not only that, suppose my miner is 15 degrees warmer. That's still 15 degrees cooler and I am getting 2x the performance as you.

Point is, if there's less heat, then your card isn't working as hard as it can. Basic science.

Basic science ? That's a joke right ?
Show us all the flaws of the current GPU miner (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0) instead of spreading broscience. I'm waiting ...

[rumlazy]

Basic science ? That's a joke right ?
Show us all the flaws of the current GPU miner (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0) instead of spreading broscience. I'm waiting ...

+1

Lotta people claim theres a better miner, no one actually provides proof though.

[AlexGR]

Actually I have a "better miner" but only a couple percent more and as far as my own card (series 58xx) is concerned. Thing is, I don't know if its better for everyone.

I gave replication instructions earlier, don't know if anyone tried it though:

on sph-sgminer, /kernel/darkcoin.cl, between line 263 and 264 you add #pragma unroll 1

=>

Code:

            for (unsigned int u = 0; u < 16; u ++)
        H[u] ^= xH[u];
#pragma unroll 1
          for (unsigned int u = 0; u < 8; u ++)
        hash.h8[u] = DEC64E(H[u + 8]);

...you then recompile the program, del all .bin files and rerun the program. Report the hashrate and your card.

You can also try this a bit higher (between line 243 and 244) where it says:

Code:

       for (unsigned int u = 0; u < 16; u ++)
        g[u] = m[u] ^ H[u];

and do it like this:

Code:

#pragma unroll 1
  for (unsigned int u = 0; u < 16; u ++)
        g[u] = m[u] ^ H[u];

...but try them one by one, not together and see what happens. Always recompile the app + del the .bins.

This is actually "de-optimizing" as unrolled loops are usually faster, but it just so happens to run faster for me, for whatever reason. #pragma unroll 1 declares no loop unrolling (theoretically slower, faster in practice). I'm curious on what it does for others.

[MinerP]

thats the whole point of this thread... majority of ppl are not computer programmers and can't prove it... we are asking for professionals to speak up and debunk the speculation with facts or prove the speculation with facts. we cant prove it... can YOU prove otherwise? probably not

not looking for answers like 'it runs cooler so it uses less electricity'
 

[zerodrama]

Basic science ? That's a joke right ?
Show us all the flaws of the current GPU miner (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0) instead of spreading broscience. I'm waiting ...

If you're on the treadmill but you're not sweating I can reasonably guess that you're not on the uphill setting.