AMT fucks us over again

[opieum2]

Yea I hear what you are saying. Like I said, if we get more crap that is misrepresented, it will result in contempt which is jailtime. So I do think with that motivation in mind AMT will make good on their word this time. They cant just screw us this time. Even the largest companies in the US know not to do that and always fix the problems after they get sued like this. I keep up with Class actions and have been a member of a couple of them by inclusion just because I was a customer. In that sense they need to make it right with customers. I am not that skeptical that they won't, because now we have a court (and really the US Government) backing us in this.

The settlement needs to be agreed upon. Which might not be by plaintiffs. Gotta also remember....the people representing the class are clenell and another user from this forum. They ultimately are speaking for the customers in this.....with the lawyer in all this we might get some real results. Hard to say what the end result will be. At bare minimum we get what we paid but as the MPP is implied in the legal complaint....well they likely will have to honor that as well. IF we got bumped up to 2THs  from 1.2 at this point that would be a win of some kind. Not ideal but its better than nothing....and if AMT were to give us faulty all hardware the situation legally would escalate to a criminal level (considering a failure rate of 1:10 as acceptable). So yea jail would be a very real thing for them if they try to screw us. That being said liar or not, I do believe AMT on the assembly house fiasco just looking at the miners themselves. Plus this sort of thing does happen. Also based on the photos of the assembly house that they posted a while back the place looked very unprofessional as it was. So that much I do believe because there is plenty of evidence to back it up.

The delays and all that.....ehh that's another story. I tried to work with them to get some issues fixed but that ultimately boiled down to a design problem and faulty assembly as it was.   Their design seems to work if done right.....BUT it requires a good assembly process for it to be successful that means using a good assembly house. Otherwise the miners fizzle out as has been happening to all of us with AMT hardware in hand.

I prefer diplomacy first to hardass tactics (which I can bring on later in the game). I have gotten alot of results in alot of areas in my life. That being said I also know when to bring the hammer down when I am being fucked with. I grew up on the streets of NY in the 80s-90s. I have lived in warzones after that and met some titans (CEOs) of very large business as well and picked up a few things from them. I have a pretty good handle on the worst people can be like. But diplomacy works best until it doesn't. Carrot and the stick and all that. I am sure of one thing is that they can't run with our money now. The court already has its controls in place to make sure they are in compliance with the law. And if they start looking to screw us more, its going to end very badly. They don't have the resources to fight us on this. So its much easier for them to give us what we want and once they have fulfilled that either close up shop or keep doing business but under conditions that they do not repeat the same mistakes they did this time around. If they had spent a bit more on packing material and QA this would not be the mess it is for them now. This is just the reality of the existing situation as it is.

[loshia]

The real problem is that it will be very hard to prove if crap was doa, damaged during shiping or you the customers burn it. If you happen to go to court to prove that Zipkin is delivering more that 1:10 crap,it will be an easy win for Zipkin if you follow me.
And poserkoto will get out clean. So every settlement whit option different from refund is a pure 10000% loss
That is what Zipkin is waiting for  statement with promises for extra hashing power.....
You are the ones who have winning position because amt broke all possible laws but after the settlement you are gona loose because you will never be able to prove that the crap was doa. You will rma it Zipkin wil change it according to always and so on.....
Think twice before settle with amt scam

[opieum2]

The real problem is that it will be very hard to prove if crap was doa, damaged during shiping or you the customers burn it. If you happen to go to court to prove that Zipkin is delivering more that 1:10 crap,it will be an easy win for Zipkin if you follow me.
And poserkoto will get out clean. So every settlement whit option different from refund is a pure 10000% loss
That is what Zipkin is waiting for  statement with promises for extra hashing power.....
You are the ones who have winning position because amt broke all possible laws but after the settlement you are gona loose because you will never be able to prove that the crap was doa. You will rma it Zipkin wil change it according to always and so on.....
Think twice before settle with amt scam

Actually with the class action the photos these forums and various emails and complaints....its all we need. There is a paper trail. Fact is he also didn't go through all the pre-requisite paperwork to get us those DIY kits as well. There were promises of additional hardware that we still don't have. Even in the smallest detail its easy to address. Fact that what was advertised was not what we got on alot of levels AMT cannot get away with it. If AMT ships us a second set of lemons the court will come at him hard. Jail time hard. And if they don't there are plenty of other agencies ready to take a crack at this (I and a couple other users already have the ear of these agencies). Believe me if we get screwed again it wont go well. There are a couple of other people on this forum as well as myself who are as well connected in matters of law enforcement. Collectively we have alot more resources.....I haven't said anything until now because its a nuclear option and I dont like to threaten I just act. And I am patient. But not stupid. I know people want this guy in jail or whatever....but to be honest most people who want that don't have a financial stake in this. It does us no good.....what we want are results. Miners or money back. Plain and simple. If we get what we paid for (also honoring the MPP as that is also covered in the complaint) then the matter is closed. Not interested in extending this drama. Getting him jailed will not help. It will only make things worse. Sure he goes to jail....his assets and AMT's get liquidated and sold off to make the money for restitution for us....that will take alot of time. Possibly years. At the same time if he was just bad at running his business I don't feel that is a reason to toss him in jail. If he is looking to make it right now which it appears AMT is....then I am looking at that before I make a decision. I don't play baseball...there are no 3rd strikes. 

If we get this resolved without having to make this situation uglier than it needs to be that would be better, diplomacy. There is no need to start throwing people in jail until they decide to be hostile and demonstrate an I don't give a fuck attitude.. In my own experience I was working to help AMT resolve some of the engineering issues with a possible fix. Nothing came of that and I am limited as I don't have the gear on hand needed to properly fix anything. I think as has also been mentioned by others that they are in way over their heads. No need to pile it on and make it a situation that gets us nothing. This is not a get positive situation, this is a "what do we need to do to make this work?" situation, we are here now so we cant go back. They need to compensate us for all the hassle and trouble and get us what we paid for and honor the MPP if even partially. Worst case they can write this disaster off on their taxes for next year and claim the losses and get some if not all of the money back and start over the right way. It happens with businesses all the time.

As it is I am kinda fed up with the whole situation. Now they promised the legal options "first thing in the morning" its 2:57PM EST no update as of this time. I think everyone involved is getting fed up and they are taking their own action which they should. I am waiting for that announcement because its an important one to determine if that is going to be what we accept or not. I figure if I don't get any kind of update today I need to start looking at other resources to address this as its just more bullshit as you said. But that's the point....its not a smart move to hit the button and launch the nukes right away.....I have no problem working with AMT to get what is in the best interest of the customers......but they better step up and do whats right by us because I think they really are starting to piss off the wrong people who supported them at one point. The point is we (the customers) are already pretty much united on that. And some of us have considerable resources at our disposal that we are ready to use. I just want them to actually keep their word for once. If they say they will do something, then they should do it when they say they will instead of stringing us along. That is the singular reason why they are in this mess in the first place.

[loshia]

After settlement they will do their homework and ship the crap with all papers inside.
Forum and pictures are proof but will the be good enough for court?
As I said do not deal again with dishonest liars. It is not about money or miners it about general principles. That is what I think...
 

[grumpybearsgirl]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

[opieum2]

After settlement they will do their homework and ship the crap with all papers inside.
Forum and pictures are proof but will the be good enough for court?
As I said do not deal again with dishonest liars. It is not about money or miners it about general principles. That is what I think...
 

Yea the photos are....especially as they will be coming from multiple sources. Its the whole 3 witnesses rule. If one person comes at them with a broken miner.....then it can be questions....2 less. But considering that pretty much everyone who had it shipped had problems at different levels and even I had issues with a broken miner. I documented the errors and various problems with mine before they died. But it is valid in court. And if the case went to trial it would work in our favor in a much larger way. But for now a settlement works. Under terms of whatever settlement they would need to correct whatever practices led to this mess. That is just a general part of it. But yea we wont have to do business with them int he future and this could be the end of it for them if they cant turn it around. I like to think they just messed up royally and it seems like that. Its too poorly organized IMO to be a scam. If it is a scam its the worst one ever done as they actually had to produce a product.

I get what you are saying about general principles....but sadly principles in this situation won't get us our money back or miners. In this its about getting justice which is getting what we paid for and them honoring their words. BUT the after effect here in this is now AMT's brand is damaged because of their actions and inactions. Call it karma or whatever principle you believe in for that. They messed with our money and they messed with our time, and this is the result. 

[opieum2]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that.

[FrictionlessCoin]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that.

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

[Syke]

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

Yeah, it was an order transfer. I don't think eightcylinders is too happy with his choice now.

[opieum2]

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

Yeah, it was an order transfer. I don't think eightcylinders is too happy with his choice now.

That sucks. Well today has come and gone. I don't imagine there will be any announcement tonight. Figure I may as well keep this thread up so no potential customers can wonder. I really was hoping they were turning a corner but its just more of the same crap. But since they are still making promises they can't or won't keep or communicate correct info, we cannot be held accountable for our reaction to their negligent and irresponsible communications to us.

[Flying Hellfish]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that.

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

This type of business model is name after an Italian gentlemen.

Sure sounds like AMT is very shortly going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer.  A person is either a customer or an investor and it likely won't be long until AMT finds out the legal rights and the legal recourse for each class of person are VERY different.

[opieum2]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that.

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

This type of business model is name after an Italian gentlemen.

Sure sounds like AMT is very shortly going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer.  A person is either a customer or an investor and it likely won't be long until AMT finds out the legal rights and the legal recourse for each class of person are VERY different.

Because we gave them money and expected a return on that investment....which is what ROI literally is....and is covered under the MPP...it can easily be argued that we are investors in the company and as such AMT would have a fiduciary duty to provide us with the increase or break even of said investment. Interesting point.....and might be cause for yet another case seeing as the class action covers other aspects of product misrepresentation. As far as it being a Ponzi scheme.....technically its not....I say that because they actually do provide a product flawed and misrepresented as it is, it is indeed a physical product. BUT the investomer concept AND the fact that they refer to giving us an ROI via the MPP they pretty much opened up to the fact that we are in fact investors. It could be argued that way at least in a courtroom with relative ease. But I don't think the current complaint covers that. 

[FrictionlessCoin]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that.

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

This type of business model is name after an Italian gentlemen.

Sure sounds like AMT is very shortly going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer.  A person is either a customer or an investor and it likely won't be long until AMT finds out the legal rights and the legal recourse for each class of person are VERY different.

Because we gave them money and expected a return on that investment....which is what ROI literally is....and is covered under the MPP...it can easily be argued that we are investors in the company and as such AMT would have a fiduciary duty to provide us with the increase or break even of said investment. Interesting point.....and might be cause for yet another case seeing as the class action covers other aspects of product misrepresentation. As far as it being a Ponzi scheme.....technically its not....I say that because they actually do provide a product flawed and misrepresented as it is, it is indeed a physical product. BUT the investomer concept AND the fact that they refer to giving us an ROI via the MPP they pretty much opened up to the fact that we are in fact investors. It could be argued that way at least in a courtroom with relative ease. But I don't think the current complaint covers that. 

I would have to disagree here, mining hardware is equipment, it isn't an investment asset.   You don't buy mining hardware in the hope you can sell it at a higher price.  In fact, mining hardware depreciates extremely rapidly.

The severest crime I can think of here is federal wire fraud.  Goods where sold without any intention of delivery.

In fact, if you can prove that AMT never had a 1.2 THs that could be delivered, then you can make the case that there was never any intent to deliver.    The key evidence here is the complete absence of a 6 board backplane.  That is the smoking gun in my opinion.

[Flying Hellfish]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that.

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

This type of business model is name after an Italian gentlemen.

Sure sounds like AMT is very shortly going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer.  A person is either a customer or an investor and it likely won't be long until AMT finds out the legal rights and the legal recourse for each class of person are VERY different.

Because we gave them money and expected a return on that investment....which is what ROI literally is....and is covered under the MPP...it can easily be argued that we are investors in the company and as such AMT would have a fiduciary duty to provide us with the increase or break even of said investment. Interesting point.....and might be cause for yet another case seeing as the class action covers other aspects of product misrepresentation. As far as it being a Ponzi scheme.....technically its not....I say that because they actually do provide a product flawed and misrepresented as it is, it is indeed a physical product. BUT the investomer concept AND the fact that they refer to giving us an ROI via the MPP they pretty much opened up to the fact that we are in fact investors. It could be argued that way at least in a courtroom with relative ease. But I don't think the current complaint covers that. 

The Ponzi comment was sort of a joke, they are obviously not running a true ponzi, but it's resemblance to one is uncanny.

I really don't think any of these manufacture's want to argue in court or anywhere else they were selling investments.   They are in enough of a shit storm already I doubt they want to get into SEC target range as well.

[opieum2]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that.

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

This type of business model is name after an Italian gentlemen.

Sure sounds like AMT is very shortly going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer.  A person is either a customer or an investor and it likely won't be long until AMT finds out the legal rights and the legal recourse for each class of person are VERY different.

Because we gave them money and expected a return on that investment....which is what ROI literally is....and is covered under the MPP...it can easily be argued that we are investors in the company and as such AMT would have a fiduciary duty to provide us with the increase or break even of said investment. Interesting point.....and might be cause for yet another case seeing as the class action covers other aspects of product misrepresentation. As far as it being a Ponzi scheme.....technically its not....I say that because they actually do provide a product flawed and misrepresented as it is, it is indeed a physical product. BUT the investomer concept AND the fact that they refer to giving us an ROI via the MPP they pretty much opened up to the fact that we are in fact investors. It could be argued that way at least in a courtroom with relative ease. But I don't think the current complaint covers that. 

The Ponzi comment was sort of a joke, they are obviously not running a true ponzi, but it's resemblance to one is uncanny.

I really don't think any of these manufacture's want to argue in court or anywhere else they were selling investments.   They are in enough of a shit storm already I doubt they want to get into SEC target range as well.

Right but that point is still very valid....the investment thing might actually be enough, to get the SEC in there. considering that alot of the elements are there, its a possible route...least it will put a stop to this pre-order nonsense and force businesses to actually focus on raising capital for on hand items. All in all these are sadly growing pains of this industry. It might actually be a good thing in the long run for everyone.

[opieum2]

so glad we got our refund. what a mess.

Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that.

Here's the thing though,  he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. 

Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money.   I don't think they have the money.

This type of business model is name after an Italian gentlemen.

Sure sounds like AMT is very shortly going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer.  A person is either a customer or an investor and it likely won't be long until AMT finds out the legal rights and the legal recourse for each class of person are VERY different.

Because we gave them money and expected a return on that investment....which is what ROI literally is....and is covered under the MPP...it can easily be argued that we are investors in the company and as such AMT would have a fiduciary duty to provide us with the increase or break even of said investment. Interesting point.....and might be cause for yet another case seeing as the class action covers other aspects of product misrepresentation. As far as it being a Ponzi scheme.....technically its not....I say that because they actually do provide a product flawed and misrepresented as it is, it is indeed a physical product. BUT the investomer concept AND the fact that they refer to giving us an ROI via the MPP they pretty much opened up to the fact that we are in fact investors. It could be argued that way at least in a courtroom with relative ease. But I don't think the current complaint covers that. 

I would have to disagree here, mining hardware is equipment, it isn't an investment asset.   You don't buy mining hardware in the hope you can sell it at a higher price.  In fact, mining hardware depreciates extremely rapidly.

The severest crime I can think of here is federal wire fraud.  Goods where sold without any intention of delivery.

In fact, if you can prove that AMT never had a 1.2 THs that could be delivered, then you can make the case that there was never any intent to deliver.    The key evidence here is the complete absence of a 6 board backplane.  That is the smoking gun in my opinion.

That is real simple to prove the technical stats on the hardware itself. Not what they provide but actual performance. Of course they could cherry pick it and set up special defaults for performance reasons. Its in those situation a technical expert is required. Basically the defaults they were shipping with were 16000:800000:8000 (bitmines) least that was my experience and what led to a miner dying within 5 min. I was lucky to salvage a single card. Now the other side of it is if they did that for some miners and not others it can be easily proven that they sabotaged peoples miners. As apparently the hardware seems to run (when its working) at 16000:750000:2000 (which is AMT's defaults and a VERY low hashrates as well)

They already acknowledged their problems. Which means they were aware of this when sending them out. Our consent to recieving hardware was limited to an assumption we would get working hardware.

[loshia]

And poserkoto Zipkin is hiding from customers. The promised settlement update is missing?
poserkooooooo as people say the chances  your as to settle directly in jail is getting bigger and bigger
For your own good it is time to come up again with next bullshit in mind
That will be your last attempt so think million times before posting it

[opieum2]

And poserkoto Zipkin is hiding from customers. The promised settlement update is missing?
poserkooooooo as people say the chances  your as to settle directly in jail is getting bigger and bigger
For your own good it is time to come up again with next bullshit in mind
That will be your last attempt so think million times before posting it

They also have another problem they may not be aware of....they are doing business with people who happen to work in finance circles. Some of us know regulatory compliance. SEC does not screw around when it comes to that. They might be buddy buddy with banks, but not so much with anyone else. The fact that our money was used to build their business makes us in a very real sense investors. Sure a lawyer can try to spin the whole investomer term...but there is no legal basis for it. In which case we are investors....And with that definition in mind they have a problem....there are very serious penalties for not following this....context http://www.rotlaw.com/legal-library/what-is-a-fiduciary-duty-what-is-a-business-duty/
In theory those of us with the largest investment in AMT could take over the company as a board of directors and restructure the company.

They created a messy situation that they need to fix ASAP and all the words in the world will do nothing until its backed up by action. Actionable items and a clear plan on how they are going to fix this is the only acceptable option. No more excuses as to why and what. A clear and defined timeline on what to expect and a commited date. As they have a court case its being watched carefully and any further delay just leads to more problems. Anyone have contacts with the SEC? Might be interesting to get an opinion on the investomer thing.

[loshia]

Dude a simple tax investigation against AMT and their famous Genno's stakes will bring Zipkin ass to jail guaranteed  
All Capone story when everything fails this works for sure
But Zipkin is paying taxes and not hiding anything right poserko

[Syke]

Dude a simple tax investigation against AMT and their famous Genno's stakes will bring Zipkin ass to jail guaranteed  
All Capone story when everything fails this works for sure
But Zipkin is paying taxes and not hiding anything right poserko

How would AMT pays state taxes when they're not registered with the state to do business in PA.