[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[GingerAle]

Blockafett, I think what you may forget is that monero is not a bitcoin clone - therefore, there's a lot more under the hood development that is not as blatantly "oh look my transaction is shiny fast"

If you are saying that Monero doesn't have instant transactions, you might want to address that before trying to change the world.  Most people in the world expect instant payment using cash or credit card, i'm not sure how you expect people to adopt a delayed payments system but good luck.

same way they've been accepting bitcoin payments IRL currently. (?)

Yeah, i get yah - instant transactions wooh. At some point someone may craft a truly decentralized way to have instant private transactions, and hopefully the monero codebase can be useful to this development.

IMO, what Monero is currently fighting is the battle of entrenchment / lock-in, as detailed here, page 8.

http://r-u-ins.org/resource/pdfs/YouAreNotAGadget-A_Manifesto.pdf

But here's a quote,

One day in the early 1980s, a music synthesizer designer named Dave Smith casually
made up a way to represent musical notes. It was called MIDI. His approach conceived of music
from a keyboard player‟s point of view. MIDI was made of digital patterns that represented
keyboard events like “key-down” and “key-up.”
That meant it could not describe the curvy, transient expressions a singer or a saxophone
player can produce. It could only describe the tile mosaic world of the keyboardist, not the
watercolor world of the violin. But there was no reason for MIDI to be concerned with the whole
of musical expression, since Dave only wanted to connect some synthesizers together so that he
could have a larger palette of sounds while playing a single keyboard.
In spite of its limitations, MIDI became the standard scheme to represent music in
software. Music programs and synthesizers were designed to work with it, and it quickly proved
impractical to change or dispose of all that software and hardware. MIDI became entrenched,
and despite Herculean efforts to reform it on many occasions by a multi-decade-long parade of
powerful international commercial, academic, and professional organizations, it remains so.
Standards and their inevitable lack of prescience posed a nuisance before computers, of
course. Railroad gauges—the dimensions of the tracks—are one example. The London Tube was
designed with narrow tracks and matching tunnels that, on several of the lines, cannot
accommodate air-conditioning, because there is no room to ventilate the hot air from the trains.
Thus, tens of thousands of modern-day residents in one of the world‟s richest cities must suffer a
stifling commute because of an inflexible design decision made more than one hundred years
ago.
But software is worse than railroads, because it must always adhere with absolute
perfection to a boundlessly particular, arbitrary, tangled, intractable messiness. The engineering
requirements are so stringent and perverse that adapting to shifting standards can be an endless
struggle. So while lock-in may be a gangster in the world of railroads, it is an absolute tyrant in
the digital world.

Dash (as a technology, ignoring the instamine) has ignored the threat of lock-in, and instead is trying to make the best of a locked-in situation.

Monero is breaking out of the lock-in.

Now, here I lack information, and correct me if I'm wrong - does DASH use stealth addressing? Or is this rich list really a rich list?
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/#!rich

If I can find an address and look up its account information on the blockchain, WTF?

I don't have time to read all that lol, if Monero's value prop is 'lock-in' which I never heard before, can you explain it in one sentence?

PS no need to attack Dash in every post, I get that it's the biggest threat.  That's why I am asking here for a chance for people to explain Monero's real world value, instead of the usual vague marketing referrals / blurb..

sorry, I responded too swiftly. One sentence: Once a technology becomes pervasive, it becomes exceedingly difficult to change that technology. The case here is the transparent blockchain.

Monero's real world value is the opaque blockchain. And I didn't attack Dash, I'm just using it as an example of something being locked-in (a transparent blockchain) with attempted fixes (masternode mixing) and the resultant flaw due to the lock-in (completely visible account information).

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[fluffypony]

Sorry I don't understand.  Are you referring to the marketing graphic (aka Jizz Sheet)?  I tend not to read them, I don't want the BS spiel I just try to find real value...  Are you saying that you are implementing instant transactions?

Ok so I write detailed explanations and you go "SORRY I DIDN'T READ IT I NEED BULLET POINTS" and then I give you an infographic with bullet points and you go "SORRY I DON'T READ BULLET POINTS I NEED EXPLANATIONS".

Do you see the problem here?

To answer your question more directly: as indicated, we will implement a really fast, really lightweight sidechain/daughter-chain that settle back to the main chain for regular spends. This will be quite fast, but for a truly instant hub-and-spoke system we'll probably do something based on the Lightning Network proposal, but using the lightweight tippero-style chain for significantly faster verification (unless we end up replacing our PoW with Cuckoo Cycle in the interim, in which case a dedicated micropayments daughter-chain is deprecated by a Lightning Network hub-and-spoke).

Since I know that went over your head, here are Rusty's explanations on how Lightning works for truly trustless instant transactions and micropayments (no MasterNodes needed!) -

http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=462
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=467
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=477

[bigj]

How to justify that, collateral damage?

No, if the Monero volume is fake (and I suspect it is) then it must still go. It's even more reason to remove it, in fact, as it would be unconscionable to let it skew Monero's trade volume with fake trades.

I have no proofs but the " fake bot" is easy to notice. Every few minutes, an order appears on the first position of the order book, he is better 0.000001 xmr, immediately he is executed (partially but the remainder disappears).
the trade history seems to be active but in reality, the order book don't change. There is no real activity.

[edit] i don't look at the other market, i focused on xmr/btc

That could also be my play-bot, playing mini-market maker. Dunno, just saying.

[BlockaFett]

Blockafett, I think what you may forget is that monero is not a bitcoin clone - therefore, there's a lot more under the hood development that is not as blatantly "oh look my transaction is shiny fast"

If you are saying that Monero doesn't have instant transactions, you might want to address that before trying to change the world.  Most people in the world expect instant payment using cash or credit card, i'm not sure how you expect people to adopt a delayed payments system but good luck.

same way they've been accepting bitcoin payments IRL currently. (?)

Yeah, i get yah - instant transactions wooh. At some point someone may craft a truly decentralized way to have instant private transactions, and hopefully the monero codebase can be useful to this development.

IMO, what Monero is currently fighting is the battle of entrenchment / lock-in, as detailed here, page 8.

http://r-u-ins.org/resource/pdfs/YouAreNotAGadget-A_Manifesto.pdf

But here's a quote,

One day in the early 1980s, a music synthesizer designer named Dave Smith casually
made up a way to represent musical notes. It was called MIDI. His approach conceived of music
from a keyboard player‟s point of view. MIDI was made of digital patterns that represented
keyboard events like “key-down” and “key-up.”
That meant it could not describe the curvy, transient expressions a singer or a saxophone
player can produce. It could only describe the tile mosaic world of the keyboardist, not the
watercolor world of the violin. But there was no reason for MIDI to be concerned with the whole
of musical expression, since Dave only wanted to connect some synthesizers together so that he
could have a larger palette of sounds while playing a single keyboard.
In spite of its limitations, MIDI became the standard scheme to represent music in
software. Music programs and synthesizers were designed to work with it, and it quickly proved
impractical to change or dispose of all that software and hardware. MIDI became entrenched,
and despite Herculean efforts to reform it on many occasions by a multi-decade-long parade of
powerful international commercial, academic, and professional organizations, it remains so.
Standards and their inevitable lack of prescience posed a nuisance before computers, of
course. Railroad gauges—the dimensions of the tracks—are one example. The London Tube was
designed with narrow tracks and matching tunnels that, on several of the lines, cannot
accommodate air-conditioning, because there is no room to ventilate the hot air from the trains.
Thus, tens of thousands of modern-day residents in one of the world‟s richest cities must suffer a
stifling commute because of an inflexible design decision made more than one hundred years
ago.
But software is worse than railroads, because it must always adhere with absolute
perfection to a boundlessly particular, arbitrary, tangled, intractable messiness. The engineering
requirements are so stringent and perverse that adapting to shifting standards can be an endless
struggle. So while lock-in may be a gangster in the world of railroads, it is an absolute tyrant in
the digital world.

Dash (as a technology, ignoring the instamine) has ignored the threat of lock-in, and instead is trying to make the best of a locked-in situation.

Monero is breaking out of the lock-in.

Now, here I lack information, and correct me if I'm wrong - does DASH use stealth addressing? Or is this rich list really a rich list?
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/#!rich

If I can find an address and look up its account information on the blockchain, WTF?

I don't have time to read all that lol, if Monero's value prop is 'lock-in' which I never heard before, can you explain it in one sentence?

PS no need to attack Dash in every post, I get that it's the biggest threat.  That's why I am asking here for a chance for people to explain Monero's real world value, instead of the usual vague marketing referrals / blurb..

exactly.

Point being, if you can't describe a value proposition in one sentence, it doesn't have one..  masking value proposition in ton of marketing BS or asking people to read is sure way to say that there is no value.  

Every world changing technology in human history can be described in one sentence - Monero is exempt from this?

Still waiting, what innovation has Monero actually delivered that changes anything in the world or even within cryptonote?

[BlockaFett]

Sorry I don't understand.  Are you referring to the marketing graphic (aka Jizz Sheet)?  I tend not to read them, I don't want the BS spiel I just try to find real value...  Are you saying that you are implementing instant transactions?

Ok so I write detailed explanations and you go "SORRY I DIDN'T READ IT I NEED BULLET POINTS" and then I give you an infographic with bullet points and you go "SORRY I DON'T READ BULLET POINTS I NEED EXPLANATIONS".

Do you see the problem here?

To answer your question more directly: as indicated, we will implement a really fast, really lightweight sidechain/daughter-chain that settle back to the main chain for regular spends. This will be quite fast, but for a truly instant hub-and-spoke system we'll probably do something based on the Lightning Network proposal, but using the lightweight tippero-style chain for significantly faster verification (unless we end up replacing our PoW with Cuckoo Cycle in the interim, in which case a dedicated micropayments daughter-chain is deprecated by a Lightning Network hub-and-spoke).

Since I know that went over your head, here are Rusty's explanations on how Lightning works for truly trustless instant transactions and micropayments (no MasterNodes needed!) -

http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=462
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=467
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=477

It's really evasive fluffy, now ad hominem,

I am asking a simple question....what actual innovation / value does Monero bring that any other cryptonote coin doesn't?  Still waiting

[Arux]

How to justify that, collateral damage?

No, if the Monero volume is fake (and I suspect it is) then it must still go. It's even more reason to remove it, in fact, as it would be unconscionable to let it skew Monero's trade volume with fake trades.

I have no proofs but the " fake bot" is easy to notice. Every few minutes, an order appears on the first position of the order book, he is better 0.000001 xmr, immediately he is executed (partially but the remainder disappears).
the trade history seems to be active but in reality, the order book don't change. There is no real activity.

[edit] i don't look at the other market, i focused on xmr/btc

That could also be my play-bot, playing mini-market maker. Dunno, just saying.

Perhaps but i do not see a profit

[bigj]

How to justify that, collateral damage?

No, if the Monero volume is fake (and I suspect it is) then it must still go. It's even more reason to remove it, in fact, as it would be unconscionable to let it skew Monero's trade volume with fake trades.

I have no proofs but the " fake bot" is easy to notice. Every few minutes, an order appears on the first position of the order book, he is better 0.000001 xmr, immediately he is executed (partially but the remainder disappears).
the trade history seems to be active but in reality, the order book don't change. There is no real activity.

[edit] i don't look at the other market, i focused on xmr/btc

That could also be my play-bot, playing mini-market maker. Dunno, just saying.

Perhaps but i do not see a profit

Profit is minor. About 0.01 BTC/month (in good times).

[bigj]

...

It's really evasive fluffy, now ad hominem,

I am asking a simple question....what actual innovation / value does Monero bring that any other cryptonote coin doesn't?  Still waiting

For all single sentence minded frogs out there:

Monero: A truly secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency, superior in all aspects.

[BlockaFett]

...

It's really evasive fluffy, now ad hominem,

I am asking a simple question....what actual innovation / value does Monero bring that any other cryptonote coin doesn't?  Still waiting

For all single sentence minded frogs out there:

Monero: A truly secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency, superior in all aspects.

It's a good start

[smooth]

Blockafett, I think what you may forget is that monero is not a bitcoin clone - therefore, there's a lot more under the hood development that is not as blatantly "oh look my transaction is shiny fast"

If you are saying that Monero doesn't have instant transactions, you might want to address that before trying to change the world.  Most people in the world expect instant payment using cash or credit card, i'm not sure how you expect people to adopt a delayed payments system but good luck.

Blockchains don't do that. If you want a system for instant payments that is secure and not a thrown-together Rube Goldberg contraption like InstantX, use paypal, etc.

Payment channels, for example, are a proposed method to build something instant on top of a blockchain that doesn't have centralization and paper-thin security, with some other compromises. This is a hard problem.

[rpietila]

It's like somebody insisting that Octocoin can replace Bitcoin, since hey - there is nothing in Bitcoin that wasn't in octocoin!

Sorry. Clones don't count. Only Bitcoin and Monero are legitimate coins.

[GTO911]

It's really evasive fluffy, now ad hominem,

I am asking a simple question....what actual innovation

GTFO you troll, go to your scam dev for innovation

Boucing around the word innovation like its a joke and you have to keep coming out with innovations everyday just to keep the boat from sinking.

Innovation has been done aka Cryptonote, the biggest after Bitcoin. Monero is making it useable everyday, constantly improving it. Its the Flagbearer

[fluffypony]

Sorry I don't understand.  Are you referring to the marketing graphic (aka Jizz Sheet)?  I tend not to read them, I don't want the BS spiel I just try to find real value...  Are you saying that you are implementing instant transactions?

Ok so I write detailed explanations and you go "SORRY I DIDN'T READ IT I NEED BULLET POINTS" and then I give you an infographic with bullet points and you go "SORRY I DON'T READ BULLET POINTS I NEED EXPLANATIONS".

Do you see the problem here?

To answer your question more directly: as indicated, we will implement a really fast, really lightweight sidechain/daughter-chain that settle back to the main chain for regular spends. This will be quite fast, but for a truly instant hub-and-spoke system we'll probably do something based on the Lightning Network proposal, but using the lightweight tippero-style chain for significantly faster verification (unless we end up replacing our PoW with Cuckoo Cycle in the interim, in which case a dedicated micropayments daughter-chain is deprecated by a Lightning Network hub-and-spoke).

Since I know that went over your head, here are Rusty's explanations on how Lightning works for truly trustless instant transactions and micropayments (no MasterNodes needed!) -

http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=462
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=467
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=477

It's really evasive fluffy, now ad hominem,

I am asking a simple question....what actual innovation / value does Monero bring that any other cryptonote coin doesn't?  Still waiting

I don't think you understand how an ad hominem attack works.

Were it an ad hominem I would focus solely on unrelated efforts you've been associated with, deflecting from the problem at hand to instead focus on your character. So, for example, if someone were to focus on me and discuss whether I have some personal vendetta, instead of focusing on the specific issues I have with an obvious scam, that would be an ad hominem attack.

You speak about "actual innovation", but you forget that this is a cryptocurrency, not a website. Innovation requires careful forethought, loads of discussion, tons of research, a threat model to work against, and ensuring everything is built against stringent standards. And even then we still manage to fail over and over again.

Monero has never claimed to be the greatest X or the best Y. All that we're trying to do is be a worthy experiment, a safe playground where we're at least able to validate any specific promises we make, whether it comes to safety, performance, privacy, or otherwise. If that bores you, well then there are plenty of whizz-bang flash-in-the-proverbial-pan cryptocurrencies you can play house with.

[BlockaFett]

Sorry I don't understand.  Are you referring to the marketing graphic (aka Jizz Sheet)?  I tend not to read them, I don't want the BS spiel I just try to find real value...  Are you saying that you are implementing instant transactions?

Ok so I write detailed explanations and you go "SORRY I DIDN'T READ IT I NEED BULLET POINTS" and then I give you an infographic with bullet points and you go "SORRY I DON'T READ BULLET POINTS I NEED EXPLANATIONS".

Do you see the problem here?

To answer your question more directly: as indicated, we will implement a really fast, really lightweight sidechain/daughter-chain that settle back to the main chain for regular spends. This will be quite fast, but for a truly instant hub-and-spoke system we'll probably do something based on the Lightning Network proposal, but using the lightweight tippero-style chain for significantly faster verification (unless we end up replacing our PoW with Cuckoo Cycle in the interim, in which case a dedicated micropayments daughter-chain is deprecated by a Lightning Network hub-and-spoke).

Since I know that went over your head, here are Rusty's explanations on how Lightning works for truly trustless instant transactions and micropayments (no MasterNodes needed!) -

http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=462
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=467
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=477

It's really evasive fluffy, now ad hominem,

I am asking a simple question....what actual innovation / value does Monero bring that any other cryptonote coin doesn't?  Still waiting

I don't think you understand how an ad hominem attack works.

Were it an ad hominem I would focus solely on unrelated efforts you've been associated with, deflecting from the problem at hand to instead focus on your character. So, for example, if someone were to focus on me and discuss whether I have some personal vendetta, instead of focusing on the specific issues I have with an obvious scam, that would be an ad hominem attack.

You speak about "actual innovation", but you forget that this is a cryptocurrency, not a website. Innovation requires careful forethought, loads of discussion, tons of research, a threat model to work against, and ensuring everything is built against stringent standards. And even then we still manage to fail over and over again.

Monero has never claimed to be the greatest X or the best Y. All that we're trying to do is be a worthy experiment, a safe playground where we're at least able to validate any specific promises we make, whether it comes to safety, performance, privacy, or otherwise. If that bores you, well then there are plenty of whizz-bang flash-in-the-proverbial-pan cryptocurrencies you can play house with.

More evasion Fluffy....

Again, what is the unique value of Monero over any other cryptonote coin?  Aka what i your value proposition?  If you can't answer is there anyone available on the team who can?

[smooth]

Sorry I don't understand.  Are you referring to the marketing graphic (aka Jizz Sheet)?  I tend not to read them, I don't want the BS spiel I just try to find real value...  Are you saying that you are implementing instant transactions?

Ok so I write detailed explanations and you go "SORRY I DIDN'T READ IT I NEED BULLET POINTS" and then I give you an infographic with bullet points and you go "SORRY I DON'T READ BULLET POINTS I NEED EXPLANATIONS".

Do you see the problem here?

To answer your question more directly: as indicated, we will implement a really fast, really lightweight sidechain/daughter-chain that settle back to the main chain for regular spends. This will be quite fast, but for a truly instant hub-and-spoke system we'll probably do something based on the Lightning Network proposal, but using the lightweight tippero-style chain for significantly faster verification (unless we end up replacing our PoW with Cuckoo Cycle in the interim, in which case a dedicated micropayments daughter-chain is deprecated by a Lightning Network hub-and-spoke).

Since I know that went over your head, here are Rusty's explanations on how Lightning works for truly trustless instant transactions and micropayments (no MasterNodes needed!) -

http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=462
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=467
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=477

It's really evasive fluffy, now ad hominem,

I am asking a simple question....what actual innovation / value does Monero bring that any other cryptonote coin doesn't?  Still waiting

I don't think you understand how an ad hominem attack works.

Were it an ad hominem I would focus solely on unrelated efforts you've been associated with, deflecting from the problem at hand to instead focus on your character. So, for example, if someone were to focus on me and discuss whether I have some personal vendetta, instead of focusing on the specific issues I have with an obvious scam, that would be an ad hominem attack.

You speak about "actual innovation", but you forget that this is a cryptocurrency, not a website. Innovation requires careful forethought, loads of discussion, tons of research, a threat model to work against, and ensuring everything is built against stringent standards. And even then we still manage to fail over and over again.

Monero has never claimed to be the greatest X or the best Y. All that we're trying to do is be a worthy experiment, a safe playground where we're at least able to validate any specific promises we make, whether it comes to safety, performance, privacy, or otherwise. If that bores you, well then there are plenty of whizz-bang flash-in-the-proverbial-pan cryptocurrencies you can play house with.

More evasion Fluffy....

Again, what is the unique value of Monero over any other cryptonote coin?  Aka what i your value proposition?  If you can't answer is there anyone available on the team who can?

The unique value of Monero over other cryptonotes is being the first one that wasn't an abject fraud like Bytecoin, and having a public and open development process.

If you want to go hang out with, say, Fantomcoin instead, have fun, but you may be a bit lonely.

[rpietila]

It's like somebody insisting that Octocoin can replace Bitcoin, since hey - there is nothing in Bitcoin that wasn't in octocoin!

Sorry. Clones don't count. Only Bitcoin and Monero are legitimate coins.

This also was an answer to the question!

(what a helpful team we have here  )

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Monero is the only cryptocurrency that's truly fungible.

There's your value proposition. Feel free to prove me wrong. I won't be holding my breath.

[BlockaFett]

It's like somebody insisting that Octocoin can replace Bitcoin, since hey - there is nothing in Bitcoin that wasn't in octocoin!

Sorry. Clones don't count. Only Bitcoin and Monero are legitimate coins.

I have looked far and wide, this is true and I speak with personal conviction since these are the only coins I hold permanently.

So now all alt coins are scams except Monero?  I thought Monero was a clone of Bytecoin?  And I asked what real innovation Monero has done over Bytecoin and still not got a clear answer, but now Monero is going to overtake Bitcoin?  Confused..

[rpietila]

I also think it's kinda sad that Bytecoin failed so totally.

[BlockaFett]

Monero is the only cryptocurrency that's truly fungible.

There's your value proposition. Feel free to prove me wrong. I won't be holding my breath.

Ok so we are getting somewhere...

but few problems with your valuable proposition - first, when you make a claim, the onous is on you to prove it, not for others to 'prove you wrong'.  

So generally you wouldn't put subjective opinions in your value proposition like 'truly', it sounds noobish because that's what you would say.  Like 'Bob's best fruit and veg stall'.

But then the problem is there are other coins that claim to be fungible, so your claim to be the 'only cryptocurrency' being fungible is also negated.  Unless you can convince investors otherwise.

Also, isn't Monero just a cryptonote clone without any real innovative changes for real world users, and there are other cryptonote coins, so how can Monero be the only fungible coin when all other cryptonote coins are too?