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jwilford
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November 17, 2014, 02:28:31 AM |
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ИODE only produces new blocks when transactions appear. How does Node protect its blockchain without mining blocks continuously?
An attacker could quickly forge an alternative blockchain and easily overtake a stagnant main chain.
I am not a DEV so I can only conjecture but I would imagine since they would only have their own personal private keys and not the rest that they would only be able to send transactions out of their accounts and not in to them. Since POA is not a race but a lottery I would not see any advantage to forging a bunch of fake blocks where you send your own money out since if you succeeded the rest of the network would quickly catch up to you and continue on and the only thing you would accomplish is spending your own NODE which the network allows for anyway. If you fail you risk getting exposed and your node getting blacklisted. Again not a DEV so maybe I am completely wrong but from my reading of PoA I can see no economic advantage since like I said earlier it is no longer a race as to who can create more blocks. BTW I also support the devs in not answering until the code comes out but I'm glad you asked in case there is a real issue that needs to be looked at. EDIT I assume you were only talking about forging your own chain for purposes of getting ahead of the rest of the nodes and trying to double spend right? The only two reasons I could see for doing that would be double spending or trying to crash the value of NODE by scaring people but the second begs the question of why would you invest so much just to crash your own assets? WTF, pass me the contact of his drug supplier, should be good. Well from my reading of the Bitcoin white paper https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf the use of the continuous blocks was to make sure that a majority of the hash power was needed to out run the rest of the computers. Since each blocked contains the hash of the previous block, blocks cannot be inserted in the middle or changed. The race is to make sure that a specific computer could not broadcast a transaction then quickly mine a block faster than the other computers that did not contain it allowing a double spend. That is why vendors are advised to wait for a confirmation or two before delivering goods. It is also my understanding that even under a 51% attack after 3 or 4 verifications you can still not perform this type of attack because it would be very hard for you to go back and mine all of those blocks and catch up with and pass the rest of the network. It is also my understanding that even with 90% of the hashing power you cannot spend funds out of someone elses wallet without their private key. My understanding of PoA from reading this http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/452.pdf is that the network hunts for a "High activity" node to forge (sign) the block so that the same computer cannot forge a bunch of blocks even if they have more hashing power. It also means that because the forger is somewhat random that it actually makes it harder for someone to execute the equivalent of a 51% attack because even if they have most of the activity they cannot guarantee that they will be the one forging the block. Please correct me if I am wrong as you seem to be indicating. I am an Engineer not a Computer Scientist and I am ok with being wrong but would like to be told how and why I am wrong so that I will know better in the future.  |
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threedream
Sr. Member
 Offline
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
Stand up , Stand up , Stand up !
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November 17, 2014, 07:43:10 AM |
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Dev, Now is Monday (evening), are you ready ?
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I have to get back all the lost .
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TheRealSilk
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November 17, 2014, 07:49:41 AM |
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ИODE only produces new blocks when transactions appear. How does Node protect its blockchain without mining blocks continuously?
An attacker could quickly forge an alternative blockchain and easily overtake a stagnant main chain.
you have answered all the questions that were asked above For this and need a version and a persistent network connection with all clients. The old client will not be able to connect to new clients, and if we disable version checking and network, you will create a new network and a new blockchcain. All clients are interconnected with each other and are on the same network wave. When You make a transaction it instantly got all clients. (it's like FM radio wave, You won't be able to log in to the live broadcast or substitute audio data) and in the Node You will not be able to create a fake block. We also tomorrow I will try to answer more about networking and connecting with clients, many people think the bigger the network, the slower it will be, but it's not. Enough to be connected to the main peers to other peers clients (maximum 2 to 50 connections at a time ) Dev, Now is Monday (evening), are you ready ?
Yes |
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Patrik90
Member
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Activity: 65
Merit: 10
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November 17, 2014, 08:23:49 AM |
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Dev, Now is Monday (evening), are you ready ?
Its still morning in eastern Europe ...I just had breakfast  |
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TheRealSilk
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November 17, 2014, 08:27:23 AM |
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Dev, Now is Monday (evening), are you ready ?
Its still morning in eastern Europe ...I just had breakfast All right, we have morning. We are waiting for the evening |
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iHashFury
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November 17, 2014, 09:31:09 AM |
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Should I leave my node running or kill it? Your call but wait for update of new client. Old clients cannot connect to network ATM. Its a waste of CPU. Killed my node until update. |
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Patrik90
Member
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Activity: 65
Merit: 10
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November 17, 2014, 10:43:56 AM |
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Its soooo boring with 6BTC volume. I cant even have fun on bter  |
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starik69
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1367
Merit: 1000
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November 17, 2014, 11:17:00 AM |
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For this and need a version and a persistent network connection with all clients. The old client will not be able to connect to new clients, and if we disable version checking and network, you will create a new network and a new blockchcain. All clients are interconnected with each other and are on the same network wave. When You make a transaction it instantly got all clients. (it's like FM radio wave, You won't be able to log in to the live broadcast or substitute audio data) and in the Node You will not be able to create a fake block. We also tomorrow I will try to answer more about networking and connecting with clients, many people think the bigger the network, the slower it will be, but it's not. Enough to be connected to the main peers to other peers clients (maximum 2 to 50 connections at a time )
For me without source code this passage looks like complete delusion and not understanding the laws of math and how networks work  Something like perpetum mobile.  Only i have such an impression?  |
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tzpardi
Member
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Activity: 66
Merit: 10
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November 17, 2014, 11:24:32 AM |
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Just for pure curiosity and check how the tech works, any plans when the source code will be released?
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TheRealSilk
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November 17, 2014, 11:25:20 AM |
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For this and need a version and a persistent network connection with all clients. The old client will not be able to connect to new clients, and if we disable version checking and network, you will create a new network and a new blockchcain. All clients are interconnected with each other and are on the same network wave. When You make a transaction it instantly got all clients. (it's like FM radio wave, You won't be able to log in to the live broadcast or substitute audio data) and in the Node You will not be able to create a fake block. We also tomorrow I will try to answer more about networking and connecting with clients, many people think the bigger the network, the slower it will be, but it's not. Enough to be connected to the main peers to other peers clients (maximum 2 to 50 connections at a time )
For me without source code this passage looks like complete delusion and not understanding the laws of math and how networks work Something like perpetum mobile. Only i have such an impression? read more detailed information about the technology node.js and you will understand the principle of operation of the network |
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patmast3r
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November 17, 2014, 11:26:38 AM |
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For this and need a version and a persistent network connection with all clients. The old client will not be able to connect to new clients, and if we disable version checking and network, you will create a new network and a new blockchcain. All clients are interconnected with each other and are on the same network wave. When You make a transaction it instantly got all clients. (it's like FM radio wave, You won't be able to log in to the live broadcast or substitute audio data) and in the Node You will not be able to create a fake block. We also tomorrow I will try to answer more about networking and connecting with clients, many people think the bigger the network, the slower it will be, but it's not. Enough to be connected to the main peers to other peers clients (maximum 2 to 50 connections at a time )
Are you saying there are some peers that are more important than other peers ? |
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TheRealSilk
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November 17, 2014, 11:30:10 AM |
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For this and need a version and a persistent network connection with all clients. The old client will not be able to connect to new clients, and if we disable version checking and network, you will create a new network and a new blockchcain. All clients are interconnected with each other and are on the same network wave. When You make a transaction it instantly got all clients. (it's like FM radio wave, You won't be able to log in to the live broadcast or substitute audio data) and in the Node You will not be able to create a fake block. We also tomorrow I will try to answer more about networking and connecting with clients, many people think the bigger the network, the slower it will be, but it's not. Enough to be connected to the main peers to other peers clients (maximum 2 to 50 connections at a time )
Are you saying there are some peers that are more important than other peers ? Any peers can be important if we will make it in the default client settings |
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patmast3r
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November 17, 2014, 11:41:46 AM |
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For this and need a version and a persistent network connection with all clients. The old client will not be able to connect to new clients, and if we disable version checking and network, you will create a new network and a new blockchcain. All clients are interconnected with each other and are on the same network wave. When You make a transaction it instantly got all clients. (it's like FM radio wave, You won't be able to log in to the live broadcast or substitute audio data) and in the Node You will not be able to create a fake block. We also tomorrow I will try to answer more about networking and connecting with clients, many people think the bigger the network, the slower it will be, but it's not. Enough to be connected to the main peers to other peers clients (maximum 2 to 50 connections at a time )
Are you saying there are some peers that are more important than other peers ? Any peers can be important if we will make it in the default client settings Can't say I follow. Well... |
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starik69
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1367
Merit: 1000
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November 17, 2014, 12:18:22 PM |
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read more detailed information about the technology node.js and you will understand the principle of operation of the network
Did node.js beat CAP theorem?  BTW, i did not see answer to: Are devs using different clients compared to those provided for public? |
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xibeijan
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
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November 17, 2014, 12:25:15 PM |
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ИODE only produces new blocks when transactions appear. How does Node protect its blockchain without mining blocks continuously?
An attacker could quickly forge an alternative blockchain and easily overtake a stagnant main chain.
I am not a DEV so I can only conjecture but I would imagine since they would only have their own personal private keys and not the rest that they would only be able to send transactions out of their accounts and not in to them. Since POA is not a race but a lottery I would not see any advantage to forging a bunch of fake blocks where you send your own money out since if you succeeded the rest of the network would quickly catch up to you and continue on and the only thing you would accomplish is spending your own NODE which the network allows for anyway. If you fail you risk getting exposed and your node getting blacklisted. Again not a DEV so maybe I am completely wrong but from my reading of PoA I can see no economic advantage since like I said earlier it is no longer a race as to who can create more blocks. BTW I also support the devs in not answering until the code comes out but I'm glad you asked in case there is a real issue that needs to be looked at. EDIT I assume you were only talking about forging your own chain for purposes of getting ahead of the rest of the nodes and trying to double spend right? The only two reasons I could see for doing that would be double spending or trying to crash the value of NODE by scaring people but the second begs the question of why would you invest so much just to crash your own assets? WTF, pass me the contact of his drug supplier, should be good. Well from my reading of the Bitcoin white paper https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf the use of the continuous blocks was to make sure that a majority of the hash power was needed to out run the rest of the computers. Since each blocked contains the hash of the previous block, blocks cannot be inserted in the middle or changed. The race is to make sure that a specific computer could not broadcast a transaction then quickly mine a block faster than the other computers that did not contain it allowing a double spend. That is why vendors are advised to wait for a confirmation or two before delivering goods. It is also my understanding that even under a 51% attack after 3 or 4 verifications you can still not perform this type of attack because it would be very hard for you to go back and mine all of those blocks and catch up with and pass the rest of the network. It is also my understanding that even with 90% of the hashing power you cannot spend funds out of someone elses wallet without their private key. My understanding of PoA from reading this http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/452.pdf is that the network hunts for a "High activity" node to forge (sign) the block so that the same computer cannot forge a bunch of blocks even if they have more hashing power. It also means that because the forger is somewhat random that it actually makes it harder for someone to execute the equivalent of a 51% attack because even if they have most of the activity they cannot guarantee that they will be the one forging the block. Please correct me if I am wrong as you seem to be indicating. I am an Engineer not a Computer Scientist and I am ok with being wrong but would like to be told how and why I am wrong so that I will know better in the future. Thanks. Yes the only reason to fork the blockchain would be to double spend via a 51% attack. This, infinite spending power, is economic inscentive enough. ИODE looks easier to 51% attack because the nodes are not actively increasing the height and difficulty while the network is idle (while there are no transactions). Maybe I am missing something about PoA. It would be good if a dev could answer. |
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TheRealSilk
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November 17, 2014, 12:28:11 PM |
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read more detailed information about the technology node.js and you will understand the principle of operation of the network
Did node.js beat CAP theorem? BTW, i did not see answer to: Are devs using different clients compared to those provided for public? No |
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sava0123
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November 17, 2014, 01:07:54 PM |
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For me without source code this passage looks like complete delusion and not understanding the laws of math and how networks work Something like perpetum mobile. Only i have such an impression? Finaly you got the source code posted from devs. I am so happy for you. No more delusion and not understanding the laws of math and how networks work. Funny thing thougth that Silk gave you the same code that I and others posted 2 month ago and which you claimed was not a code of NODE but some suspissios, no provable shit. Something like you are a moron. Only I have such an impression? |
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starik69
Legendary
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Activity: 1367
Merit: 1000
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November 17, 2014, 01:39:40 PM |
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Something like you are a moron. Does that source have actual PoA code? Who's like a moron? |
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sava0123
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November 17, 2014, 01:48:41 PM |
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Something like you are a moron. Does that source have actual PoA code? Who's like a moron? Like you was asking about POA. Moron is you. I already told that. In order to avoid problems in network synchronization, all clients must be the same version You cannot control what other people do. In NXT i still see clients of 0.x.x versions. Will NODE with different clients make their own network? What will happen if You are using an older version of the client, and I'm new. In our case, the transaction will not be accepted and will remain in your client, because the transaction is instant and the network must be synchronized continuously. But it must be accepted by clients with the same version as mine? Now there are several of them , but we plan to grow the network to increase to main 100-200.
Are they hardcoded in the client? |
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