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[cryptosmoker]

You're welcome to use this thread as a platform to voice your displeasure.  However a lot of your assumptions and claims are based on misunderstandings.  For example, did you know that Table Starter rakeback isn't the only way players were receiving greater than 100% rakeback? So that is why I mentioned deducting from players' accounts because of the increase in rake.  Anyway, I am done partaking in this discussion.  This isn't the 1st time you've tried belittling me and educating me on something I probably know much more about than you. 

So you aren't going to answer any claim I make because I said boo-boo naughty words?  Because I'm educating you on things that you've never responded to or shown any knowledge about?  Once again, you are being illogical and ignoring everything that I'm saying.

Betcoin overraked it's players on nearly 600,000 hands.  Do you agree or disagree with that statement.  If you disagree: why?  If you agree: what do you think they should do to compensate it's players?  What are you doing, as an affiliate FOR the players, to advance their positions?

I've always bargained for the highest percentages for my players.  I think my players from both the online community and IRL are more than satisfied with the services I provide.  If you want I can ask them to let you know what I've done for them in the past, and it's not just paying out RB.  I keep constant communication with a lot of my players via other mediums such as email or messenger.

Regarding everything else you've said.  No, I totally disagree with your claims.  The rake did go higher briefly but was corrected.  Why did that happen?  Probably miscommunication.  Was it a cash grab?  Absolutely not, and even if it was, it totally failed.  Like I said, during the period of which it went higher, Betcoin made no monetary gains from it because of the >100% RB players, VIP, Table Starter, etc.  Yes, some players received 100% rakeback (a program which has ended now) + VIP rakeback + all other promo's.  So the higher the rake, the more they made.

Wow what world do you live in?


They over rake for a month, then they dont return anything and announce a rake increase.  The way you see this:

 The rake did go higher briefly but was corrected.  

You think the more betcoin rakes the less they earn because of table starter bonus?  Are you crazy person? 


My favorite part is after you tell us how honest and what a great affiliate you are (that doesnt return any casino or sports earnings) you say:

Regarding everything else you've said.  No, I totally disagree with your claims.

You disagree with the facts that have proof?  Show some facts then please.

[Xiaoxiao]

You're welcome to use this thread as a platform to voice your displeasure.  However a lot of your assumptions and claims are based on misunderstandings.  For example, did you know that Table Starter rakeback isn't the only way players were receiving greater than 100% rakeback? So that is why I mentioned deducting from players' accounts because of the increase in rake.  Anyway, I am done partaking in this discussion.  This isn't the 1st time you've tried belittling me and educating me on something I probably know much more about than you.  

So you aren't going to answer any claim I make because I said boo-boo naughty words?  Because I'm educating you on things that you've never responded to or shown any knowledge about?  Once again, you are being illogical and ignoring everything that I'm saying.

Betcoin overraked it's players on nearly 600,000 hands.  Do you agree or disagree with that statement.  If you disagree: why?  If you agree: what do you think they should do to compensate it's players?  What are you doing, as an affiliate FOR the players, to advance their positions?

I've always bargained for the highest percentages for my players.  I think my players from both the online community and IRL are more than satisfied with the services I provide.  If you want I can ask them to let you know what I've done for them in the past, and it's not just paying out RB.  I keep constant communication with a lot of my players via other mediums such as email or messenger.

Regarding everything else you've said.  No, I totally disagree with your claims.  The rake did go higher briefly but was corrected.  Why did that happen?  Probably miscommunication.  Was it a cash grab?  Absolutely not, and even if it was, it totally failed.  Like I said, during the period of which it went higher, Betcoin made no monetary gains from it because of the >100% RB players, VIP, Table Starter, etc.  Yes, some players received 100% rakeback (a program which has ended now) + VIP rakeback + all other promo's.  So the higher the rake, the more they made.

Wow what world do you live in?


They over rake for a month, then they dont return anything and announce a rake increase.  The way you see this:

The rake did go higher briefly but was corrected.  

You think the more betcoin rakes the less they earn because of table starter bonus?  Are you crazy person?  


My favorite part is after you tell us how honest and what a great affiliate you are (that doesnt return any casino or sports earnings) you say:

Regarding everything else you've said.  No, I totally disagree with your claims.

You disagree with the facts that have proof?  Show some facts then please.

You misread my reply and then tried to build off of that.  I didn't say Betcoin raked less because of the table starter bonus; there was ANOTHER 100% RB program which you probably didn't know about which has ended now, but you just assumed I was talking about the table starter bonus when I mentioned "100% RB program".  Humility goes a long way in life kid.

It's good that you're wary and alert regarding the operation of online poker rooms.  I know there's been a lot of cases of awful things happening such as the UB/Absolute incident and also Lock Poker among others, but this current debacle is almost like a witch hunt.  I can assure you that the people at Betcoin were simply inexperienced with poker room management and had no ill intent when they made the error.

[cryptosmoker]

You misread my reply and then tried to build off of that.  I didn't say Betcoin raked less because of the table starter bonus; there was ANOTHER 100% RB program which you probably didn't know about which has ended now, but you just assumed I was talking about the table starter bonus when I mentioned "100% RB program".  Humility goes a long way in life kid.

You're right - I did assume this was about table starter bonus.

You have mentioned table starter bonus many time, I think every time you have tried defending them you have mentioned it as well like here:

No it is certainly not okay to keep anything you are not entitled to.  With that said, I can see what support meant when they said it wasn't really over raked (net gain) because many people benefited from higher rake due to the rewards they got.  So those people are technically not entitled to the higher rewards either.

So for example if you are getting 100% tablestarter RB + VIP + Affiliate RB, you'd obviously be happy if the rake was as high as possible.  At any rate, this was a tough call and support had to make a tough decision.

I don't know of any other promotion to get 100% back, unless you mean the few prop player accounts that were always were getting it from working something out privately with betcoin, but this wouldn't be a a promotion, it would just be a private arrangement. 

So are you being intentionally vague about it?

By the way, do you think its ok to to over charge some players as long as they over pay other players more? (it's not)

This isn't about humility and i am not a kid.  This is about ethics.  There's a reason betcoin ignores so many people, you act the same more and more it seems.

You stick with betcoin as long as you get your cut of everyone who siged up to play poker and dumped it in sports or casino.  I hope its a big one.  Maybe i would do the same who knows, but i sure would not be defending them like you are.  So just be quiet and enjoy the money they give you instead of defending them like you dont see all the proof of whats happening.

[Xiaoxiao]

Good morning everyone!  The BBJ has crossed 21,000 mBTC.  Also please take advantage of the hundreds of tournaments available each week.  Sundays are the best, however.

[TwitchySeal]

Good Morning!

I didn't say Betcoin raked less because of the table starter bonus; there was ANOTHER 100% RB program which you probably didn't know about which has ended now, but you just assumed I was talking about the table starter bonus when I mentioned "100% RB program".  

I know there were some regs getting 100% rakeback for the past 10+ months, some of those accounts are now gone, but that was by no means a promotion and certainly no excuse to not return what they took from those who did not receive 100%+ rakeback.

What promotion are you talking about?

What's the point of being intentionally vague?

It's good that you're wary and alert regarding the operation of online poker rooms.  I know there's been a lot of cases of awful things happening such as the UB/Absolute incident and also Lock Poker among others, but this current debacle is almost like a witch hunt.  I can assure you that the people at Betcoin were simply inexperienced with poker room management and had no ill intent when they made the error.

I agree they are inexperienced, but you really don't seem to be looking at the big picture XiaoXiao.  Either that or you really just dgaf, which would be fine - if it weren't for all the BS you are posting about them in this thread while choosing to "disagree"/ignore all the evidence that I've presented.

The issue is NOT that Betcoin accidentally over raked their cash games.

It's because after they realized they were over raked their cash games, they pretended like they didn't know for a while,they lied about it and eventually admitted to it (sort of) then refused to return the money (sort of)  In the thread discussing this, they deleted the posts made by unhappy players and left those who complimented betcoin.  No doubt there will be players who find the thread and have no reason to assume anything other than "problem solved everyone happy"  That's just fucked up.

[Xiaoxiao]

Some of the benefits of playing at Betcoin:

-Insane rewards (especially if you've registered via this service)

-Huge tournament fields and prizepools because of WPN shared tournaments

-The best ongoing promotions!

-Active community forum and chat allowing instant communication with support AND other players

-Incredible security; 2FA, system monitoring of outliers and abnormal activities (such as multi-accounting and collusion)

-Increasing staff and support

-Constant improvement of platform (stay tuned for incredible new features)

Finally, it is clear support is working arduously to improve the platform and ensure everyone's safety.  Therefore I urge everyone to be patient when demanding something.

Take care and GL!

[TwitchySeal]

Not cool to just ignore me like that....Betcoin does the same scummy thing.  Ignore you most of the time, once in a while respond with something that doesn't make sense or isn't true, then right back to ignoring.

Most players give up and drop it.

Im still here though.

Good Morning!

I didn't say Betcoin raked less because of the table starter bonus; there was ANOTHER 100% RB program which you probably didn't know about which has ended now, but you just assumed I was talking about the table starter bonus when I mentioned "100% RB program".  

I know there were some regs getting 100% rakeback for the past 10+ months, some of those accounts are now gone, but that was by no means a promotion and certainly no excuse to not return what they took from those who did not receive 100%+ rakeback.

What promotion are you talking about?

What's the point of being intentionally vague?

It's good that you're wary and alert regarding the operation of online poker rooms.  I know there's been a lot of cases of awful things happening such as the UB/Absolute incident and also Lock Poker among others, but this current debacle is almost like a witch hunt.  I can assure you that the people at Betcoin were simply inexperienced with poker room management and had no ill intent when they made the error.

I agree they are inexperienced, but you really don't seem to be looking at the big picture XiaoXiao.  Either that or you really just dgaf, which would be fine - if it weren't for all the BS you are posting about them in this thread while choosing to "disagree"/ignore all the evidence that I've presented.

The issue is NOT that Betcoin accidentally over raked their cash games.

It's because after they realized they were over raked their cash games, they pretended like they didn't know for a while,they lied about it and eventually admitted to it (sort of) then refused to return the money (sort of)  In the thread discussing this, they deleted the posts made by unhappy players and left those who complimented betcoin.  No doubt there will be players who find the thread and have no reason to assume anything other than "problem solved everyone happy"  That's just fucked up.

[Xiaoxiao]

Twitchy, I'm not ignoring you.  It's just that I gave a more than sufficient response and explanation to the issues you've brought up but you continue to blow things out of proportion to the point where it seems your intent has now become malicious and ego-driven.  

Betcoin made a mistake where no one was hurt, and they were afraid to admit it at first, but on their behalf I will admit they did make a mistake, but it has been corrected/rectified long ago.  What more do you want?  That the company crumbles to ashes and the tens of thousands of players that rely on the site are left hanging?

[TwitchySeal]

More than sufficient?

It's very clear that you either don't understand what I have said, or you are intentionally misleading others with your responses.

After I explained how Betcoin was taking more than they should in rake for over 3 weeks and didn't refund, you commented:

The rake did go higher briefly but was corrected.

So "briefly" = almost a month?

"corrected" = increasing the rake, without refunding anyone?

Why do you think Betcoin did not profit from over raking players? (Table Starter + Promos + VIP etc.. is not an answer without some educated guesses and math)

Please answer Dooglus' quesion, and also how you feel about Betcoin refusing to answer and deleting it:



During the Over Rake period, how many players do you think receive over 100% rakeback, on average, at a Betcoin Cash table with 5 or more players. (My guess is 1.2 players.)

Can you disprove any of the following?  Do you think any of it is not true, even if you can't prove it?

•  They first knew they were over charging players no later Novermber 14th
•  They didn't even aknowledge the issue untill I made THIS POST on December 9th.
  
  
•  Before eventually admitting the fact that they were taking more than they should, they denied it.

  The rake is actually programmed correctly in the system with the proper cap but appears to be capping at 2 ($0.82) for most tables 5 ($2.14) for some tables and the highest of 8 mbtc ($3.43) for very few tables.

  
  
•   Players asked about refunds.  They have yet to provide a direct answer, but implied that they would be keeping all of it because most players were receiving more than they should:

  Refunding players who have been overpaying is a bit more complicated because most players are actually getting more than they should!

   
  
  
•  All responses to this statement have been ignored.  All (or most) have been deleted.  
•  From 11/14 - 12/9 over 588,000 hands were dealt at Betcoin
•  There is evidence of the cap being too high on 11/14, 12/9 and many days in between.  There is no evidence of the cap being correct at any time during this period.
•  Due to the table starter promotion, at any given time, no more than two players per table are receiving over 100% rakeback.  (note: XiaoXiao has now mentioned a mysterious other promotion involving other players collecting 100% plus, but hasn't clarified")
•  Heads up cash tables are not eligible for tablestarter promotion.
•  Example:  The rake should have never been more than 2.5% with a max of 2 chips per hand at the following table and we see 6 being taken.  A maximum of 2 are getting 100%+ rakeback, possibly 1 or 0.   So a MINIMUM of 4 out of every 6 pots larger than 80 chips results in Betcoin taking funds they aren't entitled to.

•  Example: High stakes Heads Up Match.  The rake should be capped at 1 chip but they take 5 chips.   Because of the stakes, every time they see a flop - Betcoin took 4 more chips than they should have.  It may not seem like much, but consider they played a 200 hand session (less than an hour) and saw 70% of flops.  Betcoin would have ended up with over 500 chips that would simply be unethical to keep.

[DarkDays]

Finally, it is clear support is working arduously to improve the platform and ensure everyone's safety.  Therefore I urge everyone to be patient when demanding something.

Take care and GL!

I'm not trying to troll you, this is a serious question and I would appreciate a serious reply.

How is that clear?

In the past month all of these things happened:

- Someone either hacked into or leaked Betcoin's player database and got access to sensitive player information

- The WTN feed went down...multiple times...and players still have no received refunds from some of the affected tournaments yet.

- Players have scammed multiple coins from other players through loans and staking that were never intended to be paid back.

- Players have now taken to creating fake support names to further rob other players.

- Withdraws now taking over 24 hours to process.

Oh, and support is still the industry worst.  Talk to live support?  They tell you to submit a ticket.  If they answer at all and there aren't "5 people in front of you" for hours on end.  Submit a ticket?  Ignored.  And then if they get around to answering you when you submit another one you'll get "bump this tomorrow". 

I would legit like to know how support is working to improve the platform and ensure player's safety when the platform is as insecure as it's ever been, and players are getting robbed left and right.

Of course this is all after they raised the rake in sneak and didn't make restitution with players who were overaked for a month.  So if you mean "well at least Betcoin isn't stealing money from you", then I suppose that is true and a step in the right direction.  But I kind of don't think that's what you meant. 

[Xiaoxiao]

New: Refer-a-friend, Private Message me their login name and sign-up date and get 5% of their net rake sent to you each week!  Who could resist 50% to 190% rakeback?

Also please note that for WPN shared tournaments only 50% of the rake you pay counts towards VIP and my rakeback service as the other 50% goes to the WPN network.

[DarkDays]

You understand that when you say something and someone says "hey what did you mean by that?" and you completely ignore them that it looks REALLY REALLY bad, right?  It makes you come across as a snake oil salesman.  I understand that your mentality, much like Betcoin's seems to be, may be "hey bitcoin users are pretty dumb when it comes to gambling I'll just bs them and ignore any sort of questions or criticism" but think about the clientele you are trying to attract.  You make such a small % on player's play that if all you are attracting is low volume beggars all of your work is going to pay off $0 for you.  You need to be trying to attract high volume (aka winning) players...yet any high volume winning player will take one look at how you've conducted yourself here and not want to get involved with you or Betcoin.

tl;dr: Be better at business and you'll make money.  Stop being a Betcoin stooge...they aren't paying you, the players are.  Be an advocate for them.

[Xiaoxiao]

You understand that when you say something and someone says "hey what did you mean by that?" and you completely ignore them that it looks REALLY REALLY bad, right?  It makes you come across as a snake oil salesman.  I understand that your mentality, much like Betcoin's seems to be, may be "hey bitcoin users are pretty dumb when it comes to gambling I'll just bs them and ignore any sort of questions or criticism" but think about the clientele you are trying to attract.  You make such a small % on player's play that if all you are attracting is low volume beggars all of your work is going to pay off $0 for you.  You need to be trying to attract high volume (aka winning) players...yet any high volume winning player will take one look at how you've conducted yourself here and not want to get involved with you or Betcoin.

tl;dr: Be better at business and you'll make money.  Stop being a Betcoin stooge...they aren't paying you, the players are.  Be an advocate for them.

I already told you that I admit Betcoin made a mistake and that they didn't own up to it at first.  What more do you want from me?  And yes, I'm certainly an advocate for the players, and I know they're satisfied with me because they show gratitude for what I'm doing (especially the high volume players).

Regarding everything else you've said (most of the personal attacks and assumptions), I can only  

[ftwbtc1]

Some of the benefits of playing at Betcoin:

-Insane rewards (especially if you've registered via this service)

-Huge tournament fields and prizepools because of WPN shared tournaments

-The best ongoing promotions!

-Active community forum and chat allowing instant communication with support AND other players

-Incredible security; 2FA, system monitoring of outliers and abnormal activities (such as multi-accounting and collusion)

-Increasing staff and support

-Constant improvement of platform (stay tuned for incredible new features)

Finally, it is clear support is working arduously to improve the platform and ensure everyone's safety.  Therefore I urge everyone to be patient when demanding something.

Take care and GL!

Betcoin should hire you as their forum / pr rep because you seem to spend a lot of time answering the Betcoin trolls and do a pretty good job at it.  The entire interaction is really quite fascinating.  

For some great sports picks check out my posts in the forum here and at Betcoin.ag.  I think there is great opportunity in eSports wagering because it is so new.  

[TwitchySeal]

Xiaoxiao,

You haven't responded to me.

I'm still waiting.  Please stop ignoring me.

I can break it down into one question at a time for shorter posts if you like.

More than sufficient?

It's very clear that you either don't understand what I have said, or you are intentionally misleading others with your responses.

After I explained how Betcoin was taking more than they should in rake for over 3 weeks and didn't refund, you commented:

The rake did go higher briefly but was corrected.

So "briefly" = almost a month?

"corrected" = increasing the rake, without refunding anyone?

Why do you think Betcoin did not profit from over raking players? (Table Starter + Promos + VIP etc.. is not an answer without some educated guesses and math)

Please answer Dooglus' quesion, and also how you feel about Betcoin refusing to answer and deleting it:



During the Over Rake period, how many players do you think receive over 100% rakeback, on average, at a Betcoin Cash table with 5 or more players. (My guess is 1.2 players.)

Can you disprove any of the following?  Do you think any of it is not true, even if you can't prove it?

•  They first knew they were over charging players no later Novermber 14th
•  They didn't even aknowledge the issue untill I made THIS POST on December 9th.
  
  
•  Before eventually admitting the fact that they were taking more than they should, they denied it.

  The rake is actually programmed correctly in the system with the proper cap but appears to be capping at 2 ($0.82) for most tables 5 ($2.14) for some tables and the highest of 8 mbtc ($3.43) for very few tables.

  
  
•   Players asked about refunds.  They have yet to provide a direct answer, but implied that they would be keeping all of it because most players were receiving more than they should:

  Refunding players who have been overpaying is a bit more complicated because most players are actually getting more than they should!

   
  
  
•  All responses to this statement have been ignored.  All (or most) have been deleted.  
•  From 11/14 - 12/9 over 588,000 hands were dealt at Betcoin
•  There is evidence of the cap being too high on 11/14, 12/9 and many days in between.  There is no evidence of the cap being correct at any time during this period.
•  Due to the table starter promotion, at any given time, no more than two players per table are receiving over 100% rakeback.  (note: XiaoXiao has now mentioned a mysterious other promotion involving other players collecting 100% plus, but hasn't clarified")
•  Heads up cash tables are not eligible for tablestarter promotion.
•  Example:  The rake should have never been more than 2.5% with a max of 2 chips per hand at the following table and we see 6 being taken.  A maximum of 2 are getting 100%+ rakeback, possibly 1 or 0.   So a MINIMUM of 4 out of every 6 pots larger than 80 chips results in Betcoin taking funds they aren't entitled to.

•  Example: High stakes Heads Up Match.  The rake should be capped at 1 chip but they take 5 chips.   Because of the stakes, every time they see a flop - Betcoin took 4 more chips than they should have.  It may not seem like much, but consider they played a 200 hand session (less than an hour) and saw 70% of flops.  Betcoin would have ended up with over 500 chips that would simply be unethical to keep.

@ftwbtc


You admitted to making a new account at betcoin because you don't want me to know the name of your other account.

Why do you think this is ok?  Is betcoin giving you special treatment, or do they just not care about your multiple accounts?

I expect you to ignore these questions, much like Betcoin, Xiaoxiao and plo8monster ignore every valid issue which sheds Betcoin in a negative light.

There is some great value in the following games today and wanted to share.  I have been sharing a lock each day the last three days and will continue to do so.

ftwbtc, I noticed you posted the same thing on Betcoins forum, which is interesting because when I check your profile it says you registered just this month and still a Bronze 3.

You really are a complete moron.  I created a new account to have my social profiles match online .

[DarkDays]

 What more do you want from me?  

I told you what I want from you.  It's what all of the players want from you.  We want you to be our advocate.  Get Betcoin to refund the players that it stole money from via the illegal, unannounced overraking.  You admitted that it happened...now try to make it right!  If you don't, then you are tacitly allowing them to steal money from their customers.  Are you doing this because you get a % of the money that they stole?  That's the only logical explanation any player would come to as to why you wouldn't fight for the player's rights.

[wilfra]

You guys need to lay off, he is just an affiliate. If you have a problem with Betcoin, take it up with Betcoin. It's not his fault and there is nothing he can do about it even if he wanted to.

Is it possible to signup with an existing account? I just created my account like an hour ago and already made a deposit and played a tiny amount. Will they let me be tracked to an affiliate or it's too late? Can I just make a new account?

[TwitchySeal]

You guys need to lay off, he is just an affiliate. If you have a problem with Betcoin, take it up with Betcoin. It's not his fault and there is nothing he can do about it even if he wanted to.

If you're a poker player, I think you should be doing the same thing I am.  Not acting as if nothing wrong is going on.  I'm not making personal attacks or anything, I'm just doing what I believe is the right thing to do. 



"Just an affiliate"?

af·fil·i·ate
verb
əˈfilēˌāt/

officially attach or connect (a subsidiary group or a person) to an organization.


Xiao is profiting from promoting Betcoin and also chooses to defend them.  He should be held accountable for these decisions.

[wilfra]

Do you think a gas station owner selling lottery tickets should be held accountable for the actions of the lottery?

That's all he is doing. I don't think you understand how affiliates work. He's not a site representative.

[DarkDays]

You guys need to lay off, he is just an affiliate. If you have a problem with Betcoin, take it up with Betcoin. It's not his fault and there is nothing he can do about it even if he wanted to.

Betcoin isn't listening to it's players.  They've stolen the money and don't want to give it back.

Xaio ISN'T 'just an affiliate', he clearly has a relationship with Betcoin, as is evidenced by the fact that he is receiving a RB% that is higher than anyone else.  Major affiliates have talked about how they have had hour long personal discussions with Betcoin trying to set up an off-the-books affiliate relationship but it fell through when they were unimpressed with Betcoin's unprofessionalism.  Xaio clearly ignored this and forged that connection.  Now, there's nothing wrong with that...that's how the business works and it allows him to give his players a better deal than they could get elsewhere.  But that special relationship comes with responsibility.  He has the ear of the business!  He should be saying "hey, when you stole that money from all of your players that was wrong and you should work out refunds".  Why isn't he?  Is it because he profited from Betcoin's thievery? Is it because he is scared of standing up to such a shady business that he's in bed with?  Is it because he thought that the players deserved to have money stolen from them?  

There used to be "no difficult questions".  Now there are just no answers...