BTCD is no more

[frohlocke]

I replenished my bid for mgwBTCD
bids between 75 and 85 NXT

Ooops. I didnt notice the . in 82.5 was missing and accidentally put a bid for 825 NXT per BTCD. That's next month's price
sorry, cleared out all the sells, didnt mean to do that.

Could not resist to sell 50 btcd for that price. Would you like to be refunded?

[1715128386]

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[SpringfieldM1A]

I replenished my bid for mgwBTCD
bids between 75 and 85 NXT

Ooops. I didnt notice the . in 82.5 was missing and accidentally put a bid for 825 NXT per BTCD. That's next month's price
sorry, cleared out all the sells, didnt mean to do that.

So that's something like $24 per BTCD   ? I bet you made somebody's day (but I agree in a months time that will be the going rate anyway)

[jl777]

I replenished my bid for mgwBTCD
bids between 75 and 85 NXT

Ooops. I didnt notice the . in 82.5 was missing and accidentally put a bid for 825 NXT per BTCD. That's next month's price
sorry, cleared out all the sells, didnt mean to do that.

Could not resist to sell 50 btcd for that price. Would you like to be refunded?

yes please, thats a lot of extra

just send back the difference to NXT-DE2F-W76R-GL25-HMFPR

thanks! i usually dont make such mistakes, but dealing with all the MGW withdraws manually has been quite distracting

[frohlocke]

I replenished my bid for mgwBTCD
bids between 75 and 85 NXT

Ooops. I didnt notice the . in 82.5 was missing and accidentally put a bid for 825 NXT per BTCD. That's next month's price
sorry, cleared out all the sells, didnt mean to do that.

Could not resist to sell 50 btcd for that price. Would you like to be refunded?

yes please, thats a lot of extra

just send back the difference to NXT-DE2F-W76R-GL25-HMFPR

thanks! i usually dont make such mistakes, but dealing with all the MGW withdraws manually has been quite distracting

OK done. calculation based on my other filled order (90 nxt).

[younier]

the price of BTCD is so stable,thanks for the community!

[SpringfieldM1A]

I replenished my bid for mgwBTCD
bids between 75 and 85 NXT

Ooops. I didnt notice the . in 82.5 was missing and accidentally put a bid for 825 NXT per BTCD. That's next month's price
sorry, cleared out all the sells, didnt mean to do that.

Could not resist to sell 50 btcd for that price. Would you like to be refunded?

yes please, thats a lot of extra

just send back the difference to NXT-DE2F-W76R-GL25-HMFPR

thanks! i usually dont make such mistakes, but dealing with all the MGW withdraws manually has been quite distracting

OK done. calculation based on my other filled order (90 nxt).

Your honesty is commendable. I sincerely respect what you just did.

[jl777]

I replenished my bid for mgwBTCD
bids between 75 and 85 NXT

Ooops. I didnt notice the . in 82.5 was missing and accidentally put a bid for 825 NXT per BTCD. That's next month's price
sorry, cleared out all the sells, didnt mean to do that.

Could not resist to sell 50 btcd for that price. Would you like to be refunded?

yes please, thats a lot of extra

just send back the difference to NXT-DE2F-W76R-GL25-HMFPR

thanks! i usually dont make such mistakes, but dealing with all the MGW withdraws manually has been quite distracting

OK done. calculation based on my other filled order (90 nxt).

thank you very much!
Very honorable.

James

[jl777]

http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/markets/show/nxt-mgw

MGW is now 15th largest exchange!
http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/markets/info

MGW is now the biggest exchange for NXT!!
http://www.cryptocoincharts.info/v2/coins/show/nxt

The better MGW does, the better for InstantDEX

James

[jl777]

Won't users have to be cautious about who they are giving telepods to and who they are accepting telepods from, especially with BTC? If someone is careless and ends up getting their transporter linked to something unlawful (money laundering or something), and someone else received & deposits a telepod that originated from that transporter because the transporter they normally use got that telepod from Instantdex, then they would be linked the unlawful originator. I only skimmed over the the privacy implementations in the paper so far so I'm not actually sure if the sender and final receiver (if they withdraw to an address that can be linked to them) are associated in the chain. I'm not sure if this is a real issue because the same thing could happen with regular addresses, but it would sort of blacklist that telepod since no one would want to be linked to the originator.

certainly you need to be careful of who you transact with. Teleport does not remove the need for common sense. However, the vulnerable points are the creator and extractor, these two are linked to each other through a chain of publicly recorded clonings. However there is extreme doubt as to who controlled the cloning, so unless you are the creator or extractor, you wont have to worry too much about being linked to anything, as the question of whether you even participated in any teleports would be in doubt. Note that the extractor can be the creator, in which case the only person linked is the person to himself.

I don't know much about cryptography but is there any worry in the future about broadcasting encrypted telepods to everybody? If someone could crack it (if possible in the future) would they be able to clone and steal the telepod?

yes there is a risk that somebody with an advanced Quantum computer from the future and an equally advanced crypto cracking algo will steal the broadcasted telepods. Two defenses. Limit the broadcasting and only use the point to point onion routing. Unless you get unlucky and route through the guy with the computer from the future, you are ok. Secondly, in most scenarios, BTC will have the most lucractive amounts to crack and anybody with such advanced tech would be more likely to go after satoshi's million BTC, than your telepod, so as soon as the news breaks that Quantum Computers are cracking encryption, we need to go to plan B.

Who actually has ownership of a telepod in a trusted transaction/when a telepod is sent but not instantly cloned? I think the paper says the sender can delete it but the receiver can still clone it, so is it just whoever acts first, even with multiple people? This isn't an issue or anything because they are have to be trusting i'm just curious

The trust relationship transfers ownership the moment of acceptance and the sender should be scrubbing "spent" telepods. In trusted teleports, we leave the punishments to a higher authority that the two parties are both listening to, eg. in a corporation, the finance group, in a family, the scarier parent, etc.

Do you choose if you are sending a trusted/untrusted teleport beforehand so the receiver knows if the telepod has to be cloned immediately?

Trust is at the discretion of the receiver and since in either case the sender will mark the telepod as spent, the only difference is that the sender wont bother waiting for blockchain confirmation, as it wont happen until at least the next transfer.

these are great questions! it shows you are getting to the understanding of Teleport. At first sounds simple, then becomes confusing, then almost simple, but always some extra twists to prevent the feeling of full understanding. I think this is due to knowing that you cant know and this is not normal in crypto or computers or finance.

The privacy level has quite good properties, especially since it increases with overall activity (unique among all anon solutions), but each tx is still done the same. Add in M of N and it eliminates packet sniffers, especially due to the probabilistic routing and random onion layers. I was thinking of randomizing M of N for each telepod, but too messy and so each teleport will use the same M of N for all the telepods of the total transaction. Just when you think it cant get any better, you add in the trusted teleport path, which is basically a wild card. Anything can happen via even the smallest trusted teleport paths. There is really no way (short of actual physical surveillance and taking videos of you on your computer!) to know where the telepods are going via trusted teleport as M of N sends them in a random patter across the network, it bounces around and ends up at the destination (all protected by layers of encryption) and then there is NO cloning event, so the statistical analysis has no data to correlate. Like there not being a permanent blockchain that is vulnerable to future computers, in this case there is no blockchain event. Of course the possibility of double spending is there, and this actually brings to doubt if you really sent a payment or not, even if it was found out!

Does receiving a telepod and not cloning it mean you got payment? Plausible deniability kicks in. where is the money? it is technically in both sender and receiver's, so it is split. Now it can spread from the receiver to others, but maybe it is split into smaller pieces, so the whole things gets very fuzzy very quickly.

I would hate to be the guy tasked with trying to crack Teleport, I bet he will end up hating me

James

[clovis A.]

I replenished my bid for mgwBTCD
bids between 75 and 85 NXT

Ooops. I didnt notice the . in 82.5 was missing and accidentally put a bid for 825 NXT per BTCD. That's next month's price
sorry, cleared out all the sells, didnt mean to do that.

Could not resist to sell 50 btcd for that price. Would you like to be refunded?

yes please, thats a lot of extra

just send back the difference to NXT-DE2F-W76R-GL25-HMFPR

thanks! i usually dont make such mistakes, but dealing with all the MGW withdraws manually has been quite distracting

OK done. calculation based on my other filled order (90 nxt).

Your honesty is commendable. I sincerely respect what you just did.

I echo Springfield and James here..... mad respect frohlocke!  BTCD has attracted a different type of investor, it seems.  You'll be rewarded if you continue to HODL 

[PilotofBTC]

I replenished my bid for mgwBTCD
bids between 75 and 85 NXT

Ooops. I didnt notice the . in 82.5 was missing and accidentally put a bid for 825 NXT per BTCD. That's next month's price
sorry, cleared out all the sells, didnt mean to do that.

And someone sold them to you at that price. I was shocked when I looked at AE and saw the transaction.

EDIT: Saw that the mistaken price overage was returned. Good on you man. I love to see examples of the honesty in the crytpo world. I know the bulk of us are honest, but it doesn't look that way when you hear about all the scams.

[PilotofBTC]

So, will InstantDEX asset or BTCD holders make a better dividend per unit? (considering InstantDEX is 1/2 price per share as BTCD coin at this time).

I assume to get dividends for holding BTCD, you have to hold them in your wallet. Or will you be paying dividends to mgwBTCD hodlers?

(most deposit more into mgwBTC so I can but more mgwBTC and InstantDEX)

[jl777]

At first sounds simple, then becomes confusing, then almost simple, but always some extra twists to prevent the feeling of full understanding.

This is extremely accurate. At first I thought teleporting was very straight forward and only saw it as a glorified way of constantly creating new addresses. Then I got lost in hyperspace and forgot that whatever is in telepods still exist and I didn't see much point to it. Now I'm back to straightforward with the occasional feeling of hopelessness. What is most interesting to me is that it seems like having privacy in the network/hyperspace is only one small feature. I feel like managing a network off of the blockchain that can interact with other blockchains will potentially simplify most features other developers are trying to do, while also making those features available in all other supported coins (if they meet whatever the BTCD requirements are).

I would like to see in practical methods how anybody can deanonymize the teleport economy. That has been my focus, to make it as difficult as possible, to find the weakest link and make it stronger. Once I get the M of N info leak fixed, other than the creation/extraction points, the following is the info that is available for our attacker:

0. telepod creation/extraction and cloning events are seen on the blockchain, some amount of first two are compromised
1. IP addresses of all BTCD nodes (they can just run dozens of nodes and tally the peer data)
2. using 1, they can setup packet sniffers to capture all the data coming/going from your IP address (this is expensive)
3. using 2, they can see some percentage of packet destination for next hop and also the hop that sent it to you
4. by monitoring the Internet, telephone they can occasionally get info on some teleports, eg. you email someone and tell them you will teleport them 100 BTC tomorrow.
5. by using 0 and 4, a statistical model can be created. Starting from the compromised telepod creations, the probability distribution of which acct is controlling which telepod will be created. This model is continually updated as more data comes in and at first due to the small size of BTCD network, they can brute force correlate some significant percentage of tx. BTCD is classified as an interesting but not a threat to their higher ups
6. BTCD network grows, trusted teleports are added and what used to get some results in 5 starts degrading. As the teleport activity grows, the brute forcing is no longer possible, instead of having just 10 possible telepods for each compromised transfer it keeps getting worse and worse, now it is at 50 telepods and rising. When the trusted teleports reached a critical level (I am estimating 10%), it was as if a lot of the tx just disappeared. In fact, cloning events have dropped significantly, so either BTCD network usage is actually down, or much more than 10% is via trusted teleports. Some new assessment needs to be sent to higher ups, but without 1:1 correlation between teleporting and cloning events and entirely new statistical model will need to be developed. Where was that job offer from the private sector company, ah, good, I think I will submit for holidays and get a new job. This problem will be for someone else.
7. New guy on the job, after some time recommends to focus resources on specific suspected criminals with physical surveillance. It is just not cost effective to deanonymize the teleport non-blockchain, the petabyte HDD system is almost full of all the white noise M of N packets and our Quantum Computer is taking days just to peel one layer. Let us hope only a small percentage of people use teleporting as we cant sell the database to the other agencies if everybody started using it.

The latter parts are my fictionalized projection of what I think will happen. I am designing teleport to be resistant to this level of scrutiny and analysis and while nothing will be able to prevent physical surveillance from cracking anything, no govt has the resources to do this for all people. And that is my point. bitcoin tech is presented as anonymous and it could be, but it isnt. and this allows govts to use the tech they have to investigate criminals to be turned on everyone! without any additional manpower (just more CPU and HDD), they can start building a database on everyone. And they are. They laugh at bitcoin being anonymous and in senate hearing say things like, "we are not concerned with transparent protocols like bitcoin". Transparent protocols! If you believe that govt agencies are not doing this level of analysis, then personal level privacy is all you need. However if you dont want some low paid govt worker to be able to type in your name and get EVERY crypto tx you ever made, then BTCD is the crypto to use. You will get a "suspected teleporter" notation and any telepods you created will be tagged with your name, but they will know that like the person that goes to a bank and withdraws cash, it is meaningless what happens to the cash after you spent it. They cant even find the telepod after a few teleports as it will rapidly be possible for your telepod to be controlled by anybody in the BTCD network.

Once we achieve this, then the agencies can go back to hunting criminals instead of treating all people like possible criminals just because they have crypto.

This might just be me not understanding your network but how exactly does the network interface with other blockchains to do everything needed for teleporting - generating addresses/deposits and all that? Are telepods that are filled with other coins still managed right from the BTCD wallet?

I put the vast majority of MGW code, repurposed, into teleporting. The foreign telepods will be visible both in the wallet of the other coin and also via my API, and presumably in the web GUI for BTCD. You will also be able to issue command line to get listing of telepods

James

[threecats]

Good on ya James!

[jl777]

So, will InstantDEX asset or BTCD holders make a better dividend per unit? (considering InstantDEX is 1/2 price per share as BTCD coin at this time).

I am not smart enough to project which will have more, I just create the money making system and it will do what it will do.
One thing you are overlooking is that BTCD compounds at 5% per year, for long term hodler this is very powerful, it will take some years but BTCD will end up doubling initial dividends, whatever they are, if you are hodling long term. InstantDEX does not give you more InstantDEX.

BTCD also will get share of teleport fees, so to properly answer your question, we need to estimate what percentage of BTC transactions (~$100 mil/day) will use teleport. So NXTprivacy is the InstantDEX equivalent for the teleport fees.

BTCD is my coin and as I make new assets over the years, I plan to slice off a portion of the revenues from that asset and dividend it to BTCD hodlers. This has nothing to do with the tech, more a financial linkage, so currently BTCD is slated to get InstantDEX and NXTprivacy revenue sharing. I would assume Privatebet revenue share will also be added. Maybe tradebots revenue share, etc. I have committed to the first two and thinking I should do the latter. Should I route Privatebet and tradebots revenue sharing to BTCD hodlers? The cool thing about putting "Nxt Inside" is that it allows for this NXT asset -> BTCD financial linkage. It also saves me from spending years to duplicate all the functionality and realistically I would not waste my time cloning it, it means not having such functions. Since it takes me no extra work to get all of Nxt features, even if we dont use it much it doesnt matter.

You can view BTCD as the financial hub of all my future assets. As long as BTCD price continues to grow, then I will keep adding more dividend flows. When BTCD price maintains above .01 for a week, I will commit to adding tradebots revenue sharing to BTCD hodlers. When it maintains above .025 for a week, I will commit to adding Privatebet revenue sharing.

I assume to get dividends for holding BTCD, you have to hold them in your wallet. Or will you be paying dividends to mgwBTCD hodlers?

Very good question! This is the problem of figuring out who is owning BTCD without compromising privacy. It wouldnt do to create a mapping from all telepods to users!! First let me answery the mgwBTCD question. It is trivial to tally the ownership of mgwBTCD and calculate prorata dividend, so yes, I will allocate the BTCD dividends based on mgwBTCD

Now to the harder question of tallying up the BTCD stakers. I have spent some time to make sure that what you have in your telepods will stake for you (with a trusted teleport the sender will get the staking), basically the last person to clone a telepod will accumulate the staking from it. This will make trusted teleports used for the high velocity transactions, which is perfect! OK, so the blockchain will show all the blocks that are mined and this will be linked to public addresses and telepod addresses. We need to be very careful to not leak the fact that you control a telepod's address!

The mgwBTCD and public address dividends are not such a problem. There will need to be special handling for telepod dividend calculation. What I will have to do is make some tradebots to convert fractional dividends (most telepods will be small and get microstakes) stored offblockchain into a combined telepod dividend in a way to not link any of the telepods from the same account. To do this without leaking info will require all participating nodes to do a mass trusted teleport of the entire network!!

This is perfect. I wanted to have some background teleport activity to provide white noise and was planning to just have some random garbage packets being sent. I probably will still do some of that, but it seemed a bit wasteful. I also need some significant amount of trusted teleports, sooner, rather than later. The mass dividend calculation solves both at the same time. Imagine a giant poker game with everyone playing the same hand. OK, ran out of cards, ooops. Ignore that, we have unlimited decks. Just trying to illustrate how to do the calculation. Everybody makes a special "chip" that has info about the telepod that staked a block. For simplicity I will make all blocks worth the same. We put a hashvalue into this chip so you can prove that you made it just with providing the value that was hashed.

Everybody uses trusted teleport mechanism to send their chips to everyone else. This will take some time, maybe even a day when the network is larger. All the nodes tally up the dividend allocation. Now each X that hashes to a value in a chip is bound to the dividend amount. Each node then applies some crypto signing validation check into a special telepod and this is bound with the dividend funding account, so what we end up with is a decentralized creation of new telepods!

This is a new project that I will have to do after Privatebet, but since the record will be on the blockchain and on each person's local computer, it will just take a bit of time before the first telepod dividends are created. Since the total dividend amount from all telepods can be determined, the other two portions (mgwBTCD and public BTCD) can be properly allocated and distributed before the telepod dividends, they will get paid first. Now we have no need for using standard denominations, each dividend period will create a new standard denomination of the prorata share of the telepod dividend and this will serve the same purpose as using standard denominations.

I hope the above was clear, but I fear I lost some people partway in.

James

[PilotofBTC]

I hope the above was clear, but I fear I lost some people partway in.

I mostly got it. Thanks for spending the time to explain it. I think I did get enough to know I'm gonna lean on buying BTCD over InstantDEX, I think.

[threecats]

been encouraging some folks to read this thread b4 buying, one guy gave it a go and said

"i'll wait for the youtube video with sock puppets"

anyone?

: -)

[jl777]

been encouraging some folks to read this thread b4 buying, one guy gave it a go and said

"i'll wait for the youtube video with sock puppets"

anyone?

: -)

looking at the long term price, BTCD is like the turtle that just keeps making slow steady progress as all these other coins get pumped and dumped. We are in the low volume steady gain phase, this is not quite normal as the low volume retrenchment usually is losing price. I thought that pic of the flag (pennant) pattern was quite textbook. Not sure of exact trigger point, but something around .005 seems to be the critical point. If the price sustains above the flag's ceiling, well, people familiar with technical analysis knows what happens when that happens. With a steadily declining ceiling and the turtle gains, seems next week is about the time. Of course, I think the market is waiting for test release and maybe that is the trigger?

Now I have more clear what I need for accounting, I am ready to code up this last big piece. Good thing about thinking through the telepod dividends is that I can make it backwards compatible, minor stuff, but with potentially big impact down the road.

offline for a while as I code toward the finish line.

James

[threecats]

been encouraging some folks to read this thread b4 buying, one guy gave it a go and said

"i'll wait for the youtube video with sock puppets"

anyone?

: -)

looking at the long term price, BTCD is like the turtle that just keeps making slow steady progress as all these other coins get pumped and dumped. We are in the low volume steady gain phase, this is not quite normal as the low volume retrenchment usually is losing price. I thought that pic of the flag (pennant) pattern was quite textbook. Not sure of exact trigger point, but something around .005 seems to be the critical point. If the price sustains above the flag's ceiling, well, people familiar with technical analysis knows what happens when that happens. With a steadily declining ceiling and the turtle gains, seems next week is about the time. Of course, I think the market is waiting for test release and maybe that is the trigger?

Now I have more clear what I need for accounting, I am ready to code up this last big piece. Good thing about thinking through the telepod dividends is that I can make it backwards compatible, minor stuff, but with potentially big impact down the road.

offline for a while as I code toward the finish line.

James

wut? not dropping everything to make a sock puppet video ... ? 

hehe : -) just kidding. been watching that wedge. pretty hardcore. big support, big resistance. code on bro.

[valarmg]

One thing you are overlooking is that BTCD compounds at 5% per year, for long term hodler this is very powerful, it will take some years but BTCD will end up doubling initial dividends, whatever they are, if you are hodling long term. InstantDEX does not give you more InstantDEX.

But the supply goes up by the same amount, so getting 5% doesn't give you any extra in effect. If you start off with x% of total BTCD supply, and gain 5% every year forever, you'll still end up with x% of BTCD. The only difference (compared to 0% increase like InstantDex) is that the individual BTCDs will be decreasing in price (assuming fixed demand). If 5% was powerful, why not make it 50%?


In my opinion, mgwBTCD shouldn't be getting dividends. Dividends should only be for staking BTCD. But the MGW operators could stake with the gateway-deposited BTCD, receive dividends for that and decide to pay that out to mgwBTCD. That seems much cleaner. Otherwise, what about other gateways (say someone made a mgw2BTCD), other assets that BTCDs could be used to buy (why is mgwBTCD an exception), it all gets complicated. There's also the timestamping issue. Will people be able to get dividends twice if they stake and then put their BTCD into the multigateway at a certain time just to receive extra dividends.