bustabit.com -- The Social Gambling Game

[jaysabi]

Aren't they being paid based on having 1000 btc invested though?

Sure, but I don't see any contradictions here. If it helps, you can think of it as investing 1000 BTC with a stop loss at 990.

The problem is you're paying someone based on how much they say they're investing but aren't actually investing. That means you're doing max bets/max wins based on a BR you don't actually have, which is problematic if the folks who say they're investing 1000 btc decide to walk away after they lose 10. And on the flip side, you're paying out profits based on amounts that aren't actually at risk and therefore not truly "invested." If someone says "I've got 1000 btc invested" but has .1% stop-loss, they've only got 10 btc at risk, so if a whale wipes out the 10 btc, they can walk away with minimal loss, but on the other hand, if the site profits, you're paying them a share of profit as if they had 1000 btc invested.

Is that an accurate description, or am I misunderstanding how the system works? And if it is accurate, does that seem fair?

[tripppn]

I was trying to remember the name of this game.  I got hooked a while ago.  I love this game.  Time to get hooked again!   

[jaysabi]

And if it is accurate, does that seem fair?

Imagine this: you have 1000 BTC and send it to PRCDice.com to invest. You have a bot that monitors your investment, and automatically cashes you out if your investment falls below 990. Ignoring for overshooting, you are only risking 10 BTC but have the upside of investing 1000. Does that seem fair?

So what the money pot investor scheme would allow you to do is achieve the same effect without ever having to expose yourself to the counter-party risk on that 990.

Ok, this makes sense. But is it that all 1000 coins are on the site and you just don't have access to them, or are they not on the site? I'm just trying to reconcile how the BR can be said to be 1000 and you're paying bets out thinking the BR is 1000 if you don't ever have full access to those 1000 coins because of a set limit by the investors.

For example and for the sake of simplicity, say you have one investor. He deposits 1000 coins, and so your BR is in theory 1000. But he sets a max loss of .1% or 10 btc. You are thinking you have a BR of 1000, so you've set the max payout per game to be based on a percentage of 1000 coins, when in reality, your BR is going to walk if it falls to 990, or once you lose 10 coins. Allowing max wins to be much higher than the actual BR will tolerate losses for increases the odds of you going bankrupt if you hit variance, doesn't it?

[dooglus]

say you have one investor. He deposits 1000 coins, and so your BR is in theory 1000. But he sets a max loss of .1% or 10 btc. You are thinking you have a BR of 1000, so you've set the max payout per game to be based on a percentage of 1000 coins, when in reality, your BR is going to walk if it falls to 990, or once you lose 10 coins. Allowing max wins to be much higher than the actual BR will tolerate losses for increases the odds of you going bankrupt if you hit variance, doesn't it?

No, the site can't go bankrupt. If there's only one investor, and he walks after losing 10 BTC, all that would happen is that the bankroll will drop to 0 and the site won't be able to take any more bets.

Now suppose there were two investors. One deposited 10 BTC but said he had another 990 BTC offsite, for a total of 1000, and he wants to risk 0.1% each roll (that's 1 BTC per roll) and another deposited his whole roll of 100 BTC and wants to risk 1% per roll.

While both investors are in, they each contribute 1 BTC to the max profit per game, for a total max profit of 2 BTC per game. If things go badly for the site suh that the first investor loses the 10 BTC he has on deposit, he will stop contributing to the max profit at all, and the remaining investor will be the only active investor. He's still risking 1% of his remaining 90 BTC per roll, for a max profit of 0.9 BTC per roll.

The first investor may not actually have the 990 BTC he claimed to have, but we don't care. It turns out he was taking a huge gamble risking 1 BTC per roll when he only had 10 BTC in total, but that's OK and his own responsibility. Once he's busted (which he may well do) the other, more careful investor will still be just fine, having only lost 10% or so of their investment, and will probably go on to recover fully.

Does that make sense now?

[jaysabi]

say you have one investor. He deposits 1000 coins, and so your BR is in theory 1000. But he sets a max loss of .1% or 10 btc. You are thinking you have a BR of 1000, so you've set the max payout per game to be based on a percentage of 1000 coins, when in reality, your BR is going to walk if it falls to 990, or once you lose 10 coins. Allowing max wins to be much higher than the actual BR will tolerate losses for increases the odds of you going bankrupt if you hit variance, doesn't it?

No, the site can't go bankrupt. If there's only one investor, and he walks after losing 10 BTC, all that would happen is that the bankroll will drop to 0 and the site won't be able to take any more bets.

Now suppose there were two investors. One deposited 10 BTC but said he had another 990 BTC offsite, for a total of 1000, and he wants to risk 0.1% each roll (that's 1 BTC per roll) and another deposited his whole roll of 100 BTC and wants to risk 1% per roll.

While both investors are in, they each contribute 1 BTC to the max profit per game, for a total max profit of 2 BTC per game. If things go badly for the site suh that the first investor loses the 10 BTC he has on deposit, he will stop contributing to the max profit at all, and the remaining investor will be the only active investor. He's still risking 1% of his remaining 90 BTC per roll, for a max profit of 0.9 BTC per roll.

The first investor may not actually have the 990 BTC he claimed to have, but we don't care. It turns out he was taking a huge gamble risking 1 BTC per roll when he only had 10 BTC in total, but that's OK and his own responsibility. Once he's busted (which he may well do) the other, more careful investor will still be just fine, having only lost 10% or so of their investment, and will probably go on to recover fully.

Does that make sense now?

Yes, I understand this explanation. But what is the benefit of this system now? It's still a system of "don't send more than you're willing to lose if the site turns into a scam." Or is the system not addressing that concern and only addressing the concern of how much you can lose per game even though you're fully "invested?" Maybe I misunderstood which problem you were trying to solve.

[dooglus]

say you have one investor. He deposits 1000 coins, and so your BR is in theory 1000. But he sets a max loss of .1% or 10 btc. You are thinking you have a BR of 1000, so you've set the max payout per game to be based on a percentage of 1000 coins, when in reality, your BR is going to walk if it falls to 990, or once you lose 10 coins. Allowing max wins to be much higher than the actual BR will tolerate losses for increases the odds of you going bankrupt if you hit variance, doesn't it?

No, the site can't go bankrupt. If there's only one investor, and he walks after losing 10 BTC, all that would happen is that the bankroll will drop to 0 and the site won't be able to take any more bets.

Now suppose there were two investors. One deposited 10 BTC but said he had another 990 BTC offsite, for a total of 1000, and he wants to risk 0.1% each roll (that's 1 BTC per roll) and another deposited his whole roll of 100 BTC and wants to risk 1% per roll.

While both investors are in, they each contribute 1 BTC to the max profit per game, for a total max profit of 2 BTC per game. If things go badly for the site suh that the first investor loses the 10 BTC he has on deposit, he will stop contributing to the max profit at all, and the remaining investor will be the only active investor. He's still risking 1% of his remaining 90 BTC per roll, for a max profit of 0.9 BTC per roll.

The first investor may not actually have the 990 BTC he claimed to have, but we don't care. It turns out he was taking a huge gamble risking 1 BTC per roll when he only had 10 BTC in total, but that's OK and his own responsibility. Once he's busted (which he may well do) the other, more careful investor will still be just fine, having only lost 10% or so of their investment, and will probably go on to recover fully.

Does that make sense now?

Yes, I understand this explanation. But what is the benefit of this system now? It's still a system of "don't send more than you're willing to lose if the site turns into a scam." Or is the system not addressing that concern and only addressing the concern of how much you can lose per game even though you're fully "invested?" Maybe I misunderstood which problem you were trying to solve.

Here's the problem:

At Just-Dice I had a large number of coins invested because I trusted the site's operator. I made a good return.

At Moneypot I don't trust the operator as much. I would invest a large number of coins if I did.

With the proposed system I can tell them I want to invest a large number of coins, while only actually sending them a small number of coins. So if they turn out to be dice ninjas they don't get to steal too many of my coins. If they turn out to be honest, I get the same return as I would have by sending them all my coins, but without the risk.

Also, if a mysterious "whale" turns up and wins huge numbers of coins from the site overnight, my exposure it limited to the number of coins I actually sent. I'm somewhat protected from a "Mateo" style house player.

Another benefit is that I can pseudo-invest the same large number of coins in multiple sites at once (supposing there are more sites offering this feature). If the betting volume ends up split 50/50 between the two biggest sites I don't have to decide which site to invest in - I can invest in both of them, and get the same return from each as if I had sent all my coins to both of them.

[elm]

If an investor has 1000, but only 10 of it is onsite, and the site gets hit by a lucky whale -- the investor will have 990 offsite and 0 onsite -- and need to evaluate whether or not the lucky whale was Ryan with a hat on, or a natural whale before transferring more money on site. This is how the investor protects himself against counter-party risk.

If the site recovered before the investor topped up their investment, the investor would still be left with 0 in their onsite investment. That's why it's important that every investor decides carefully how much they wish to keep onsite, offsite and risk per game.

wouldnt this kind of handling force the OP to adjust the max bet size? sorry if I missed the answer

[Dabs]

Ok, so, hmmm, then it doesn't really matter what the investor says, what really matters is how much he put in. The remaining money (whether real or fake) can be safely ignored.

That's not any different then having the same investor just put in 10 BTC and risk 10% of it, and another one sending 1 BTC and risking 100%. Or, yah, maybe I still don't get it. That stop-loss thing looks good... The more conservative investor can survive longer (or has less risk of ruin due to variance).

Can I send 0.1 BTC and risk 1000% ? That would be awesome.

[calci]

Will the site be accepting investments soon? and is espringe the owner or is it Ryan?

[Dabs]

Ryan is supposed to be the new owner. Espringe is acting as both escrow of the old player funds, and consultant, since he created the game.

The funds won't be a problem once the site starts making money, or 6 months, whichever comes first.

[Babba D]

nice community of chat and its good to have time spent there

[jaysabi]

say you have one investor. He deposits 1000 coins, and so your BR is in theory 1000. But he sets a max loss of .1% or 10 btc. You are thinking you have a BR of 1000, so you've set the max payout per game to be based on a percentage of 1000 coins, when in reality, your BR is going to walk if it falls to 990, or once you lose 10 coins. Allowing max wins to be much higher than the actual BR will tolerate losses for increases the odds of you going bankrupt if you hit variance, doesn't it?

No, the site can't go bankrupt. If there's only one investor, and he walks after losing 10 BTC, all that would happen is that the bankroll will drop to 0 and the site won't be able to take any more bets.

Now suppose there were two investors. One deposited 10 BTC but said he had another 990 BTC offsite, for a total of 1000, and he wants to risk 0.1% each roll (that's 1 BTC per roll) and another deposited his whole roll of 100 BTC and wants to risk 1% per roll.

While both investors are in, they each contribute 1 BTC to the max profit per game, for a total max profit of 2 BTC per game. If things go badly for the site suh that the first investor loses the 10 BTC he has on deposit, he will stop contributing to the max profit at all, and the remaining investor will be the only active investor. He's still risking 1% of his remaining 90 BTC per roll, for a max profit of 0.9 BTC per roll.

The first investor may not actually have the 990 BTC he claimed to have, but we don't care. It turns out he was taking a huge gamble risking 1 BTC per roll when he only had 10 BTC in total, but that's OK and his own responsibility. Once he's busted (which he may well do) the other, more careful investor will still be just fine, having only lost 10% or so of their investment, and will probably go on to recover fully.

Does that make sense now?

Yes, I understand this explanation. But what is the benefit of this system now? It's still a system of "don't send more than you're willing to lose if the site turns into a scam." Or is the system not addressing that concern and only addressing the concern of how much you can lose per game even though you're fully "invested?" Maybe I misunderstood which problem you were trying to solve.

Here's the problem:

At Just-Dice I had a large number of coins invested because I trusted the site's operator. I made a good return.

At Moneypot I don't trust the operator as much. I would invest a large number of coins if I did.

With the proposed system I can tell them I want to invest a large number of coins, while only actually sending them a small number of coins. So if they turn out to be dice ninjas they don't get to steal too many of my coins. If they turn out to be honest, I get the same return as I would have by sending them all my coins, but without the risk.

Also, if a mysterious "whale" turns up and wins huge numbers of coins from the site overnight, my exposure it limited to the number of coins I actually sent. I'm somewhat protected from a "Mateo" style house player.

Another benefit is that I can pseudo-invest the same large number of coins in multiple sites at once (supposing there are more sites offering this feature). If the betting volume ends up split 50/50 between the two biggest sites I don't have to decide which site to invest in - I can invest in both of them, and get the same return from each as if I had sent all my coins to both of them.

So Investor One tells MP he has 1000 coins to invest and sends in 10. He's only risking 10 to a whale or variance. The other 990 are not on site.

Investor Two tells MP he has 100 coins to invest and sends in all 100.

Is Investor One paid a share of profits based on his share of the BR as: 10/110, 10/1100, or 1000/1100?

[jaysabi]

For the two responses directly above^^: Ok, I think I understand the system now. Thanks for explaining.

[Babba D]

For the two responses directly above^^: Ok, I think I understand the system now. Thanks for explaining.

yes and if you are playing there remember there is yet 99% luck and only 1% skill

[finlon]

So Investor One tells MP he has 1000 coins to invest and sends in 10. He's only risking 10 to a whale or variance. The other 990 are not on site.

Investor Two tells MP he has 100 coins to invest and sends in all 100.

Is Investor One paid a share of profits based on his share of the BR as: 10/110, 10/1100, or 1000/1100?

If the rest of the 990 coins are not on the site, how is it invested? Its just an amount that might be said to be invested but is not actually invested on the site. Isn't it?

[dooglus]

Ok, so, hmmm, then it doesn't really matter what the investor says, what really matters is how much he put in. The remaining money (whether real or fake) can be safely ignored.

That's not any different then having the same investor just put in 10 BTC and risk 10% of it, and another one sending 1 BTC and risking 100%. Or, yah, maybe I still don't get it.

You still don't get it. If you send 10 BTC and risk 10%, you lose 1 BTC on the first bet, 0.9 on the 2nd bet, 0.81 BTC on the 3rd bet, etc. (assuming someone keeps winning max bets against you). The amount you're risking per game drops pretty quickly in the face of a winning whale.

On the other hand if you invest 1000 BTC but only send 10%, and say you want to risk 0.1%, then again you lose 1 BTC on the first bet, but on the 2nd bet you have 999 left and so risk 0.999 BTC on the 2nd bet. The 990 BTC you have offsite acts as a big weight and makes the amount you risk per bet much more steady than when you are risking 10% of 10 BTC.

Can I send 0.1 BTC and risk 1000% ? That would be awesome.

No, you can't risk coins that you don't physically have on-site.

[dooglus]

So Investor One tells MP he has 1000 coins to invest and sends in 10. He's only risking 10 to a whale or variance. The other 990 are not on site.

Investor Two tells MP he has 100 coins to invest and sends in all 100.

Is Investor One paid a share of profits based on his share of the BR as: 10/110, 10/1100, or 1000/1100?

Each investor is paid a share of the profits each round in proportion to his share of the amount he contributed to the max profit for that round. On JD each investor contributed the same percentage of their bankroll to the max profit, so using the size of their bankroll to determine the profit split worked. This proposed moneypot scheme allows investors to set their own risk percentage, so that needs to be taken into account as well.

In your example:

Investor 1 is contributing 0.1% of 1000, for 1 BTC of risk.
Investor 2 is contributing 1% of 100, for 1 BTC of risk.

The max profit is 2 BTC, and they split and profit or loss 50/50 on the first round.

Note however that the split changes every round (which is why I couldn't use this idea on JD - there were too many rounds, too quickly):

If the player wins the 2 BTC, then:

Investor 1 now has 990 offsite and 9 onsite for a total of 999. He's risking 0.999 BTC on the next round.
Investor 2 now has 0 offsite and 99 onsite. He's risking 0.99 BTC on the next round.

Investor 1 is now risking slightly more than investor 2, and so gets a little more than 50% of the split on the next round. (100 * 999 / (999 + 990) %)

[omahapoker]

glad you explained this for the simple people to understand.



I'm still confused......



now just tell me which game to to bet on and i'll give you 80% of profit

[Babba D]

the cashout button doesnt work and thats why i lost some huge coins , fine .... admin you should recover my coins

[erwin45]

the cashout button doesnt work and thats why i lost some huge coins , fine .... admin you should recover my coins

Works well and instant WD, please dont try to blackmail, nice site anyway just lack design