Scientific proof that God exists?

[Buffer Overflow]

When an atheist gives up on God, he is turning his back on the one thing that can save him from death.

He/she hasn't turned their back on god, because they simply don't believe a god exists to turn their back on.
If you turn your back on something your acknowledging it exists, which atheists don't in the case of a god.

In the face of the great evidences for God that exist in the universe all around us, the only way an atheist can truly be an atheist is to be a vegetable.

Obviously your "great evidences" aren't that great to some people or the world would have no atheists.

[BADecker]

When an atheist gives up on God, he is turning his back on the one thing that can save him from death.

He/she hasn't turned their back on god, because they simply don't believe a god exists to turn their back on.
If you turn your back on something your acknowledging it exists, which atheists don't in the case of a god.

In the face of the great evidences for God that exist in the universe all around us, the only way an atheist can truly be an atheist is to be a vegetable.

Obviously your "great evidences" aren't that great to some people or the world would have no atheists.

It's not because they don't understand, especially when it is explained to them. It is because they desire other things, making the truth of God in the universe unimportant to them.

Unfortunately, people who have steeped themselves in a particular religion, mostly find it difficult to set it aside when they find out it is a false religion. In the case of God and atheism, this will probably mean eternal death for the believing, practicing atheist.

[the joint]

Hundreds of years from now there will be explanations, as we have explanations now for what was deemed miraculous in the past.

For sure, but the religious folk will just simply move the goal posts.

For sure. But since nobody lives without religion, Buffer Overflow, darkota, and myself are manipulation the forum "goal" posts right now, as we post.

 

If you redefine the concept of "religion" sure you can insist everyone worships something. It doesn't take much creativity to argue that a person is religious about something if that is their goal.

If you maintain the standard definitions of "religion," everyone has religion.

Okay, here's the standard definition:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/religion

Explain to me what I'm religious about?

If nothing else, you seem to be very religious about stating and showing that you do not have religion.

I disagree. But thank you for demonstrating to the forum how easy it was making something religious out of thin air.

This is the current trend, claiming atheism is a religion. I have total belief in the the lack of belief. BADecker pulls out the typical shit from fox news, its fairly obvious if you pay attention to the media at all. He doesn't think for himself he's just a parrot, which makes for an excellent zealot.

I caught this just a few weeks ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jcUIu-1p8s

I was hoping you would respond to my response to your post, shown here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10573928#msg10573928

I will think on it and respond in a bit...

[edit]

You've taken a big jump away from empirical science, of which i admit i chased BADecker from the evolution thread to here.

And if you're suggesting that logic is incapable of making comment about reality..

I don't think that for a second, and did not mean to represent my position as such. I readily admit, we place faith, of such, in our perception of reality. Descartes' demon may well be real, and this world is a deception. And yes I do admit, as well I think most others, that I am taking my existence and my perception of the world on faith. There is an indefinite continuum from what we can say we know to what, at some point, we must assume.

I briefly looked through the pdf you posted, but at 56 pages, it would take considerable study to analyze. Fundamentally, my opinion is such concepts are most likely unknowable nonetheless fascinating to discuss. Anyone who claims to have an answer to an unsolvable problem, particularly in a stone age text, stifles this conversation. I perceive it as a credible threat to our species, whether we exist or not.

What's the problem with moving away from empirical science?  The point I made is that empirical science carries assumptions that cannot be empirically falsified via its own methods.  To reconcile or discredit these assumptions necessarily requires a purely logical approach.  Phrased another way, empiricism relies upon non-empirical assumptions, and so it, too, moves away from empirical science in order to establish its own assumptions (e.g. there is absolutely zero evidence for a Positivistic Universe, etc.).

I agree, the paper I linked is dense, and I've likely spent several hundred hours analyzing it and researching claims counter to it.  However, the structure of the model is self-referential such that any attempt to disprove the model actually reaffirms it (because the model not only explains everything else, but also itself).

Edit:  Descartes was wrong about dualism.  Also, the Evil Demon scenario would be accounted for by the model I linked.

[Buffer Overflow]

Unfortunately, people who have steeped themselves in a particular religion, mostly find it difficult to set it aside when they find out it is a false religion.

Can you compile a list for us all of all these false religions?
How do you recognise a false religion?

[BADecker]

Unfortunately, people who have steeped themselves in a particular religion, mostly find it difficult to set it aside when they find out it is a false religion.

Can you compile a list for us all of all these false religions?
How do you recognise a false religion?

No, I probably couldn't. I would probably miss at least a few. Besides, I don't have the time that it would take to investigate and compile. You could probably search Wikipedia for a list of main ones.

Well, with Christianity all around you, and with all the talk about the Bible I have been doing in this thread, start there, the Bible, and ask God to direct you on your journey into this kind of religious seeking.

But you have to be sincere in your testing for God. Ask Him to prove Himself to you if He really exists. But do it from the standpoint of really asking sincerely. He doesn't cater to people who are simply playing around or attempting to mock Him.

[the joint]

Unfortunately, people who have steeped themselves in a particular religion, mostly find it difficult to set it aside when they find out it is a false religion.

Can you compile a list for us all of all these false religions?
How do you recognise a false religion?

No, I probably couldn't. I would probably miss at least a few. Besides, I don't have the time that it would take to investigate and compile. You could probably search Wikipedia for a list of main ones.

Well, with Christianity all around you, and with all the talk about the Bible I have been doing in this thread, start there, the Bible, and ask God to direct you on your journey into this kind of religious seeking.

But you have to be sincere in your testing for God. Ask Him to prove Himself to you if He really exists. But do it from the standpoint of really asking sincerely. He doesn't cater to people who are simply playing around or attempting to mock Him.

I would be particularly interested to hear you respond *directly* to his question about how you are able to recognize a false religion.

[BADecker]

Unfortunately, people who have steeped themselves in a particular religion, mostly find it difficult to set it aside when they find out it is a false religion.

Can you compile a list for us all of all these false religions?
How do you recognise a false religion?

No, I probably couldn't. I would probably miss at least a few. Besides, I don't have the time that it would take to investigate and compile. You could probably search Wikipedia for a list of main ones.

Well, with Christianity all around you, and with all the talk about the Bible I have been doing in this thread, start there, the Bible, and ask God to direct you on your journey into this kind of religious seeking.

But you have to be sincere in your testing for God. Ask Him to prove Himself to you if He really exists. But do it from the standpoint of really asking sincerely. He doesn't cater to people who are simply playing around or attempting to mock Him.

I would be particularly interested to hear you respond *directly* to his question about how you are able to recognize a false religion.

The direct instructions for such would probably be similar to the instructions Moses gave the people of Israel for determining if a prophet was a prophet of the Lord, or a false prophet. This would be to match the things that he said with what happened. You could say similar about matching a religion with the way things work.

In fact, in this and other threads, I have been pointing out that the things we call science don't always match all the scientific ideas that should be applied to them. A lot of what we call science (I'm not talking about pure science, or the scientific method, here) simply doesn't have enough information behind it to say that it is absolute truth, or often very near the truth.

The Bible is full of prophecies that were fulfilled. There are others that have not been fulfilled yet. Other religions have few prophecy listings, and few that are fulfilled. One of the greatest prophesies of the Bible that has been fulfilled is that of the fall of Israel as a nation because they disobeyed God. The fall lasted around 1,900 years. They have only come back according to other prophesy, and not with the glory that they held in the past.

[darkota]

Unfortunately, people who have steeped themselves in a particular religion, mostly find it difficult to set it aside when they find out it is a false religion.

Can you compile a list for us all of all these false religions?
How do you recognise a false religion?

No, I probably couldn't. I would probably miss at least a few. Besides, I don't have the time that it would take to investigate and compile. You could probably search Wikipedia for a list of main ones.

Well, with Christianity all around you, and with all the talk about the Bible I have been doing in this thread, start there, the Bible, and ask God to direct you on your journey into this kind of religious seeking.

But you have to be sincere in your testing for God. Ask Him to prove Himself to you if He really exists. But do it from the standpoint of really asking sincerely. He doesn't cater to people who are simply playing around or attempting to mock Him.

I would be particularly interested to hear you respond *directly* to his question about how you are able to recognize a false religion.

The direct instructions for such would probably be similar to the instructions Moses gave the people of Israel for determining if a prophet was a prophet of the Lord, or a false prophet. This would be to match the things that he said with what happened. You could say similar about matching a religion with the way things work.

In fact, in this and other threads, I have been pointing out that the things we call science don't always match all the scientific ideas that should be applied to them. A lot of what we call science (I'm not talking about pure science, or the scientific method, here) simply doesn't have enough information behind it to say that it is absolute truth, or often very near the truth.

The Bible is full of prophecies that were fulfilled. There are others that have not been fulfilled yet. Other religions have few prophecy listings, and few that are fulfilled. One of the greatest prophesies of the Bible that has been fulfilled is that of the fall of Israel as a nation because they disobeyed God. The fall lasted around 1,900 years. They have only come back according to other prophesy, and not with the glory that they held in the past.

Are you joking? Those "prophecies" are general and anyone with an IQ over 83 can make them. The roman empire fell, the byzantine empire fell, etc and etc, all of which were far, far more powerful than Israel could ever dreamed of being back then. All empires eventually fall, so that prophecy about Israel falling is laughable(I actually made a smirk when I was reading what you typed).


Now everyone reading this can fully conclude that everything you've said has been bullshit with this statement: "One of the greatest prophesies of the Bible that has been fulfilled is that of the fall of Israel as a nation because they disobeyed God. The fall lasted around 1,900 years"

Thank you for typing that.

[the joint]

Unfortunately, people who have steeped themselves in a particular religion, mostly find it difficult to set it aside when they find out it is a false religion.

Can you compile a list for us all of all these false religions?
How do you recognise a false religion?

No, I probably couldn't. I would probably miss at least a few. Besides, I don't have the time that it would take to investigate and compile. You could probably search Wikipedia for a list of main ones.

Well, with Christianity all around you, and with all the talk about the Bible I have been doing in this thread, start there, the Bible, and ask God to direct you on your journey into this kind of religious seeking.

But you have to be sincere in your testing for God. Ask Him to prove Himself to you if He really exists. But do it from the standpoint of really asking sincerely. He doesn't cater to people who are simply playing around or attempting to mock Him.

I would be particularly interested to hear you respond *directly* to his question about how you are able to recognize a false religion.

The direct instructions for such would probably be similar to the instructions Moses gave the people of Israel for determining if a prophet was a prophet of the Lord, or a false prophet. This would be to match the things that he said with what happened. You could say similar about matching a religion with the way things work.

In fact, in this and other threads, I have been pointing out that the things we call science don't always match all the scientific ideas that should be applied to them. A lot of what we call science (I'm not talking about pure science, or the scientific method, here) simply doesn't have enough information behind it to say that it is absolute truth, or often very near the truth.

The Bible is full of prophecies that were fulfilled. There are others that have not been fulfilled yet. Other religions have few prophecy listings, and few that are fulfilled. One of the greatest prophesies of the Bible that has been fulfilled is that of the fall of Israel as a nation because they disobeyed God. The fall lasted around 1,900 years. They have only come back according to other prophesy, and not with the glory that they held in the past.

Responding in order:

1) Logic fail.  You're shooting yourself in the foot again.  Let me get this straight - you think that the way to determine whether a religion is true or false is to first assume Christianity is true and then look to it for a method of distinguishing true religions from false ones?  What the heck kind of logic is that?  You're putting the cart way, way, WAY before the horse. 

The point here is that you can't just assume Christianity is true before you've subjected it to a method to determine whether it is true or false.  The result is that you are self-evidently using an illogical approach to determine whether Christianity is true rather than a logical one.

2) Stop contorting what science is.  When you say things like, "...A lot of what we call science (I'm not talking about pure science, or the scientific method, here)..." you are just talking out your rear.  The word 'science' has several concrete, established definitions.  When you start making up new definitions on the fly, you are simply demonstrating an inability to effectively communicate with others.

Type in "science definition" into Google and check the result.  The definitions that pop up are the only definitions applicable to 'science.'  When you use the word 'science,' it must be used according to those definitions.  If you don't, then you're simply not talking about science.  Period.

And, when you say "...the things we call science don't always match all the scientific ideas that should be applied to them..." I would remind you that you continue to demonstrate that you have no idea what science is (because you continually invent definitions for it).  It's pretty hard for the "things we call science" to match the "scientific ideas that should be applied to them" when you change the definition of what 'science' is but not the definition of 'pure science' or 'the scientific method.'  Your reasoning here is shockingly terrible.

3)  Talking about prophecies is irrelevant if you can't subject Christianity to the same method used to determine whether a religion is true or false. 

Lol.  A fall that lasted 1900 years?  Haha what the hell?  Are you joking?  Do you have any idea how stupid this sounds?

[bl4kjaguar]

If a priest believes what he is teaching to be true, does that make it the truth? Not necessarily. A lie is a lie even if it is told in good faith. So, we are back to square one.

What is your standard for truth,  BADecker?

Your response to the evidence for rebirth (silence)
is a lie (Concealment) told in bad faith
because just like others in this thread
You did not provide a simple and plausible explanation for this evidence.

Accordingly, i discern that the survival hypothesis is the simplest and most valid and rebirth is likely to be fact; in my opinion this is so unless you provide a simpler explanation as I have requested.

Be sure to take a close look at evidence (Eisenbeiss and AECES); once you have seen all the evidence, then you can make judgment, but not before.
It really helps to have an open mind in any intellectual inquiry, so I hope you will engage this evidence instead of writing it off.

[bl4kjaguar]

Here you tell us to look favorably upon the doctrine of Saul even as you attack the truth in favor of the lie. If the doctrine of Saul is different from the truth then surely no amount of good intentions will help Saul's lie! In the end, good intentions were used to validate the lie, as you can see below, you exalt the good intentions of one who was never a "follower" of Emmanuel; why did you tell us this if you knew that good faith is no excuse for a lie? All I want is for you and I to have an open appraisal of the truth about Saul.

Paul continually says that he supports Jesus, is in favor of Jesus, is trying to do the work that Jesus did, is trying to do the work Jesus told him to do, and is trying to extend God's kingdom the same as Jesus was.


You know that I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I understand that you don't think the Bible is the Word of God, or at least not all of it. So, why do you keep on questioning me about things regarding Paul and Jesus? We don't have the same sources for our beliefs and opinions. Do you simply like to play with words? Do you like to find people to argue with?

Oh I get it. You have been reading the Phoenix Journals and they are driving you crazy.

I recognize the wisdom in the Bible, but you call me crazy because I have read more wisdom than you?

[Decksperiment]

Just had to come back with some new information:

Prophecy = Prediction. So we're all prophet's..?

I wonder just how long it will take people to realise that prophecy has nothing to do with 'guessing' or 'knowing' - what is going to happen in the future, but stating the fact or fact's as you wish them to unfold. What is in your heart decide's the outcome. You can do it or you cant. This is the meaning of the 'purpose' spoken of by smith in the matrix.. Those 'purposefull' vibrations that fill the void.. The seer's burden. Now you know why it is a burden. The realisation, That first you thought it, passed it to a friend, giving it light and life, creating reality for those concerned at the same time as everyone else's reality.

To you this is fantasy.. mere thought. The thought that grew in the abyss (moved over the deep) becomes the light of your life, when you turn around and say with joy, that your lovely new toy that furnishes your ego with that wonderfull moment when you may say to another.. I told you so!

Did jesus, mohamed, hiram abiff or anyone else, predict, or state, whatever events that unfolded? They either guessed, or stated the obvious. (based on the only possible outcome from a single line in the bible) - Nothing is new. Your history is taken from a graven image of god, albeit a book.. or several books. you would say books are printed, I would say they were once graven, or in todays language, engraved. So yes, I actually understand why hebdo got shot, shame he got all his colleages shot too.. coward, to busy to go down himself for his sheer defamation of mohammed, but then, as I said earlier, Hitler was right.. why was merkel and a penn erased from the french (jewish/masonic) solidarity march?

What you witnessed in france on the day of the soldarity parade, was the creme de la creme of the worlds problems.. 4 million jews, and not a pick pocket in sight? Again.. hitler not only warned us, but tried to stop it. What if ww2 was not in fact won by the west, but by germany? No? Britain, with it's german queen, won? Meet the old boss, same as the new boss.. In my personal opinion, I beleive the islamisation of the west as some would state it, is nothing more than and a scam excuse to kill as freely as the police. Was it enid blyton that stated when the immigrants get too many, it will be a blood bath?

How many regular members have noticed exactly how many of my statements in this thread have come true? Did it ever occur to the reader, that what I wrote will, in the end, help you all realise.. Thou shalt not create any graven image. The cross is a symbol of jesus christ, but was DRAWN well before jesus was born. In fact, the origional cross is the swastika. (not promoting any nazi crap here, just a fact). To use todays cross is going against the teachings of the bible in that thou arte not only creating, but continue to sell graven images of.. EVERYTHING. War. Famine. Governmental corruption. Police becoming the reason for a new police force to govern the police themselves, due to becoming more criminal than the criminals. There's a reason for all them muscles you know.. still using them all they are, 'cept the one that matters.. by recording everyone for whatever reason, they create a graven image.

I believe we are god, meaning I can say you are, as are I, but if I say I AM, you dont like it, not because you think I'm being egotistical, which I know you do, but because you do not realise that the english language in you, for me to say I AM, state's you cannot be, just as for you to say I am not, neither can you be, and hence you learn that the light of truth is luciferian in nature according to ALL writings, across all religions. To defeat the west, do not aknowledge the english language, for it is a double edged sword, meaning only that which the english jewish state, state's it is.

Now go back to your bible(s) and stay in fuckin cuckoo land, cause neither GOD OR LUCIFER will help you when the jews/masons come.. what? They're already here? How funny is that? As funny as they think it is.

I still cant fathom why there have been ZERO marches against freemasonry as opposed to jews. An interesting point I heard RT's larry king state, was the only way to move forward in his business is to ask wht no-one else is asking.. so here is my question: If you believe in god, why do you not aknowledge the obvious, that jews are not the problem, but that freemasons are? Why has not a single tv channel pointed out that the only 'club' for want of a better word, that can pull 4 million jews, (when even the jews cant) ever mentioned freemasonry as the scource of the worlds problems?

Beleive in god?

As long as freemasonry is allowed to exist, I'll keep this line of hope in my heart..

Anyone else stupid enough to think they can keep a secret from the queen?

Edit: And what if the reason god appears not to be listening, was that before printing books became kinda mainstream, the diety you NOW call god, was then known as lucifer, and vice versa.. get it? If history is written by the victors, before they wrote of god or lucifer, and centuries later, lucifer says.. let's pretend I am god.. I'll ignore their requests, and let them fuck each over as they're gonna do wether I'm here or not, knowing full well that they'll blame god? And hence turn to me, the tetragrammaton? I'll answer their questions, their pleas, their every wanton desire.. for in my kingdom they will indeed see the light, of the fire, the fire of my soul, for I am.. pretending to be.. who?

Is it obvious I was a loop da loop era man?

[calme]

As someone who has a hard time dealing with death, one way to look on the bright side is that the religious ppl are dying off. So please don't keep this shit going, otherwise their deaths wouldn't have as much benefit.

[prodigy8]

Imagine if you were raised a Christian, you felt you knew the truth and was very passionate about your beliefs. Then you find out most of the Beliefs of the Christian religion are based on older versions of Paganism, Astrology and other Secret Orders.

[Decksperiment]

If regression is true, then it is true we are reborn.. death is nothing more than a passing fencepost.. see ya at the next gate.. o wait a minute.. my head fell off at the previous post.. now how can god or lucifer bring me back to life if I do not know my physical position in relation to the cardinal points surounding our galaxy? Cause I lost my head? It can take 6 months for the human body to discharge all electrical impulses from the point of death. This is why you do not want an autopsy done on your body when recently deceased. Your soul may be able to be reborn as soon as you die, but cant if the head is detached. It takes 6 minutes to die from point of ceasation of the heartbeat, 6 minute's where you are in fact still alive, wether your heart will work again is irelevant, since we're talking about that heavenly kingdom, and how to get there.. not.. your dead.. lol..

The reason I wrote this is to point out that during autopsy of an 'untimely' death, your brain is removed from your skull, meaning you have been decapitated.

Remember Highlander?

There's more to that movie than meet's the sky...

[Decksperiment]

Imagine if you were raised a Christian, you felt you knew the truth and was very passionate about your beliefs. Then you find out most of the Beliefs of the Christian religion are based on older versions of Paganism, Astrology and other Secret Orders.

Imagine it in reverse.. you now know the truth.

If it is written in english, we will never know.

[calme]

You almost have to teach/expose ppl to this stuff in their formative years if you don't want them to come to a semi-logical conclusion. Even Hitler said something like "Give me your children for their first five years and I'll have them for life."

[Decksperiment]

The past does not exist and never can, for in time, only the eternal present experience is true, and is our lifespan. As for the future? It will never exist. For tomorrow never comes.

To have someone for life is a phallacy

[calme]

The past does not exist and never can, for in time, only the eternal present experience is true, and is our lifespan. As for the future? It will never exist. For tomorrow never comes.

To have someone for life is a phallacy

Then why are there so many otherwise logical people who throw logic right out of the window when it comes to religion? They have confirmation bias toward religion being true, rather than being neutral about it. And thanks for pointing out a supposed fallacy, even though you might want to learn how to even spell the word.

[Decksperiment]

The past does not exist and never can, for in time, only the eternal present experience is true, and is our lifespan. As for the future? It will never exist. For tomorrow never comes.

To have someone for life is a phallacy

Then why are there so many otherwise logical people who throw logic right out of the window when it comes to religion? They have confirmation bias toward religion being true, rather than being neutral about it. And thanks for pointing out a supposed fallacy, even though you might want to learn how to even spell the word.

Dont even think about trying to remind me of my spelling mistakes, since I wrote that way intentionally.. call it a phalic symbol.

There is no logic to religion, excluding the fact it keeps it's followers in a logical fashion: devided and conquered.

No-one can confirm anything religious other than that written by the hand of man, (albeit typed later) and either deem it as true or false depending on what they want the rest to see or hear. The FACT no other living entity on this planet is stupid enough to act like puny humans.. I bet you still think the animals cant speak english..?

I'd bet they can, but CHOOSE not to, since they seem to listen and understand us very fuckin well..