Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[goozman96]

https://ecointalk.net/topic/445-30-days-countdown-to-delivery/?p=1855

[Pentax]

[/quote]The cries of "when's tapeout?" are not better the that puerile "Are we there yet?"
[/quote]

asking for an update on your thousands of dollars is not puerile.  it's common f-ing sense. 

If a corporation had invested tens of thousands in a similar situation and was getting the runaround like this, they'd be in touch with their lawyers and, more likely, they'd be on a plane demanding an inspection of the plant and hard evidence of progress to date.  customers have sent BA what is likely several hundred thousand dollars, if not more.  That's not the type of money for which you just tell people they have no right to know what the hell is going on.

no-one in their right mind just shuts up and lets the other party just stonewall when this sort of money is involved, unless they're a damn fool.

[Pentax]

I would argue there is difference between not having new info and not being allowed to repeat or given new info as I suspect is the case. Either the Minion has taped out or it hasn't. Both answers would be new info for us but maybe BA just doesn't put any importance to it like most other manufactures.

+1

yep. 

[goozman96]

Both Matt's and Blackarrow's "local time" on their profile is 8:30PM, so it sounds like they're in Europe, not China.

[goozman96]

Both Matt's and Blackarrow's "local time" on their profile is 8:30PM, so it sounds like they're in Europe, not China.

Blackarrow may be in Europe, but I believe their foundry is in China.  Regardless, I doubt Matt works in the foundry, and I'd be surprised if anyone was answering phone calls or emails at 8:30p on a Saturday, so the point remains the same.

They said that their foundry is Globalfoundries, which is primarily in Germany and Singapore. Though they do have an office in Shanghai.
Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries
http://www.globalfoundries.com/contact/

[DebitMe]

Are you guys still going to offer more hash to your customers, as you discussed from day 1, to make sure they profit?

Was this a promise?  I must have missed this somewhere as to my knowledge they have not offered any sort of guarantee.  If you have a link to where this is discussed could you please share it?

[DebitMe]

Are you guys still going to offer more hash to your customers, as you discussed from day 1, to make sure they profit?

Was this a promise?  I must have missed this somewhere as to my knowledge they have not offered any sort of guarantee.  If you have a link to where this is discussed could you please share it?

I think he is referring to this:

All pre-orders are guaranteed to be protected against any price decrease. If at any time, during the pre-order period, we drop the price under what you have already paid, you will be compensated by receiving more X-3 mining machines.
Example: If you have purchased an X-3 with 25% discount and we offer later 40% discount, your order will be recalculated at 40% discount and you will receive more X-3. Then, if we offer later only 10% discount you will still get order as if you've ordered at 40% discount.

Which is not what he thinks it is.

Cant think of anything else they ever said.

I guess you have to take it this way...
On the first page they have said that they will sell at market price or under market price by the time the units ship.
They also say that if they drop the price below what you paid you will be compensated with extra mining power.
So I suppose this could be interpreted that if they are forced to drop the price, because the market has lower cost options, then you will get more mining machines to make up for your loss?  Thats what it sounds like to me.
Important questions then: What constitutes the market price?  Is it buying brand new units from competitors or using some other price point?

[goozman96]

Bob, can you please check on my order (5xx)? I sent an email to "matt" and "support"

[Pentax]

A thread asking for an update was posted to what I think is their forum on Jan 19.

http://ecointalk.net/topic/425-ok-seriously/

and zip.

"Nothing new" is not an answer. The answers to yes or no questions are available

boards done?  Yes/no
ASICS done?  Yes/no



No reflection on the mods/spokespeople of BA.  I get that they can only release information that they're told they can release.   

People deserve an answer after literally weeks of asking.  People thinking about buying should also have the most up to date info that actually exists.  Not the information that is supposedly available, but what actually exists.   

[Pentax]

[/quote]
I love how people (both customers and potential customers) keep giving these guys business advice. Something doesn't seem right here. It's unfortunate things are this way, but generalized and vague updates are all any of us are probably going to get. Combine an extremely poor customer service model with a burgeoning (and possibly ill-fated) industry and this is the result. I gave up on BA a month ago for this reason, and it looks like nothing has changed, even though it was 'promised' there would be major updates this month. Meanwhile, the difficulty just keeps rising.
[/quote]

You might see it differently I suppose, although I don't see demanding an update as giving anyone advice.

I agree at this point that a substantive update is unlikely, but I'll keep posting asking for that update until they give it.

[goozman96]

http://cointerra.com/pr-cointerra-begins-shipment-terraminer-iv-worlds-fastest-bitcoin-miner/

These guys are using the same foundry as Black Arrow, interesting read re tapeout time and chip speeds.

So assuming BA taped out on Jan 3, 49 days after that would be Feb 21. Hopefully this is really the case.

[goozman96]

http://cointerra.com/pr-cointerra-begins-shipment-terraminer-iv-worlds-fastest-bitcoin-miner/

These guys are using the same foundry as Black Arrow, interesting read re tapeout time and chip speeds.

So assuming BA taped out on Jan 3, 49 days after that would be Feb 21. Hopefully this is really the case.

Considering cointerra only got ~1,6 th/s from their chips, will BA have the same problem?

That's a good question. If so, then I'd expect more chips would be added or something, similar to how they promised more hashing power to make up for a potential price drop.

[goozman96]

Just look at the kind of in-depth updates Cointerra gives their customers:
https://cointerra.com/status-updates/
Yet we can't even get blackarrow himself to make a single post on the forums, let alone post updates like that for us on his site.
(not directed at Matt, at least he started posting again)

[goozman96]

Yeah, cointerra is the best out there for giving updates. Blackarrow should model after them. Cointerra has not shipped yet right?

No, they have started shipping:
https://cointerra.com/pr-cointerra-begins-shipment-terraminer-iv-worlds-fastest-bitcoin-miner/

[DebitMe]

So it doesn't look like they will be shipping end on Feb?

Short answer, we don't know.  The only updates that have been given in the last month have been updates along the lines of, "we are on schedule or slightly ahead", but even these have run out in the past 2 to 3 weeks or so.

So, we could very possibly be on schedule, but not be being given any updates and the units will ship on time and everyone will be happy and praise BA for being awesome, etc.
or...
eventually BA will say that they are behind schedule and everyone will be really upset and mad that they waited so long to do so and pledge to never buy from them again and seek legal action, etc.

But I think that about sums up where the customers are at this point.

[goozman96]

Even if they do end up shipping on schedule, I don't think I'd buy from them again unless they offer a really good repeat buyer incentive. Simply because of the terrible customer experience..constantly checking here or on ecointalk to see if there has been a new forum post and nothing.. while Cointerra spoils their customers with high resolution pictures and detailed descriptions on what's going on every week.

[goozman96]

Even if they do end up shipping on schedule, I don't think I'd buy from them again unless they offer a really good repeat buyer incentive. Simply because of the terrible customer experience..constantly checking here or on ecointalk to see if there has been a new forum post and nothing.. while Cointerra spoils their customers with high resolution pictures and detailed descriptions on what's going on every week.

seriously?
all that matters is when we get our devices and if they do what they promised us.
anything else is just marketing and wont earn you more BTC.

Yes, seriously. Why wouldn't I buy from Cointerra next time? They're actually manufactured in the US and they care more about their customers while BA just gives me stress and anxiety and uncertainty. We have yet to see an actual picture of even the damn cases. The only thing we've seen are the heatsinks.

[goozman96]

Even if they do end up shipping on schedule, I don't think I'd buy from them again unless they offer a really good repeat buyer incentive. Simply because of the terrible customer experience..constantly checking here or on ecointalk to see if there has been a new forum post and nothing.. while Cointerra spoils their customers with high resolution pictures and detailed descriptions on what's going on every week.

Would you rather have a product on time and within promised spec (remains to be seen of course, but still plausible for BA), or a month late and 20% below spec, but with high res pictures along the way?

I'd like both and it's not unfair to say so considering Cointerra is shitting on BA right now.

[goozman96]

Even if they do end up shipping on schedule, I don't think I'd buy from them again unless they offer a really good repeat buyer incentive. Simply because of the terrible customer experience..constantly checking here or on ecointalk to see if there has been a new forum post and nothing.. while Cointerra spoils their customers with high resolution pictures and detailed descriptions on what's going on every week.

seriously?
all that matters is when we get our devices and if they do what they promised us.
anything else is just marketing and wont earn you more BTC.

Yes, seriously. Why wouldn't I buy from Cointerra next time? They're actually manufactured in the US and they care more about their customers while BA just gives me stress and anxiety and uncertainty. We have yet to see an actual picture of even the damn cases. The only thing we've seen are the heatsinks.

so for you marketing is more important thant the device they will create. fine, u lost me...

For all we know, they haven't made anything yet. I want proof of progress. I'm not asking them to write a whole novel every week. But asking for a single post with maybe ONE picture, once a week, is not asking too much.

[DebitMe]

I would say that we can not hold anything against BA as of yet.  They are in no way obligated to make any posts regarding where they are at on the timeline of completion of their product.  We are not shareholders or owners of the company in anyway.

That being said, I understand your and everyone else's sentiments about wanting to hear production updates, as I have put a lot of money out there myself on their pre orders and would like updates and will continue to ask for them.  But if they do not give them to me, I do not think it is fair to hodl it against them.  When I entered into a contract with them for the units that I ordered, it did not say anywhere that they had to provide me with any kind of information, only the finished product by a certain date, and you, as well as me, agreed to this.  If we miss that date, then by all means jump on them and bring about anything necessary to be fairly compensated, but until that happens they have no more obligation to you as they do to any US regulatory body.

In recap - They, nor any other company, has to provide production updates or really any updates for that matter, as long as they receive their product as specified.  Of course it is completely your option to purchase from them in the future, but if they meet their deadline I for one will jump in again with an even larger order, regardless of updates given.  So to say you will never purchase from them again I believe is pretty premature, as I would be willing to bet that you would given the opportunity and they come through.

Trust me, I am all for being given updates and would love to hear how the production process is coming along, but we are a community of immature whiners, who cannot wait for deadlines to pass judgement and make flaming remarks, even though, as far as we know, the company could be on track or ahead of schedule as has been remarked several times.